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    > Dealing with my doubts
        > How I'm handling doubts		 New Topic

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username
Registered User
(12/13/03 8:07 am)
 Re: How I'm handling doubts
I think that SRF might even twist that "dark night of the soul" thing to their benefit. When an SRF devotee really starts to notice that something is wrong, that he is not getting happier and more blissful, that life is NOT getting easier, but more cumbersome, that his relationships are becoming more difficult, INSTEAD of looking objectively and saying to himself hmm, all this starting happening AFTER I began doing everything SRF says to do, and spending all my time meditating and volunteering with the organization HE INSTEAD says to himself oh, I am advancing spiritually, this is a dark night of the soul , this only happens when you become REALLY REALLY ADVANCED like I am now that I am doing such great teachings. AND WHY DOES HE THINK THAT WAY-----BECAUSE SRF TOLD HIM ABOUT THE DARK NIGHT OF THE SOUL. They have all sorts of manipulations set up along the path to prevent you from leaving. This is brainwashing pure and simple. They even have the nerve to stand up in the lecture hall and say that SRF is NOT a cult because SRF is not listed on any cult awareness's list. ( But how would they know this UNLESS THEY WERE MONITORING THE CULT AWARENESS GROUP'S LIST and probably threatening to sue if they were listed. (by the way I believe that walrus was listed as a resource on one of the cult awareness group boards - but it is no longer listed as a resource. why is that?)

dawnrays
Registered User
(12/13/03 9:13 am)
 Dark Night of the Soul
I think I might actually be one of the few people on this board who, in all honestly, was actually too dysfunctional even for srf. I used to feel really cheated that I couldn't be one of those happy and blissful "insiders". Boy, try to start a conversation if you aren't on one of the committees or planning a tea or being in charge of putting he star on top of the temple Christmas tree!

I know this is nobody's fault and everybody feels duped, but it did give me a complex of sorts! I always just had too much junk going on to "join in the fun!"

I came from a very dysfunctional family background. So much so that I studied this type of thing later on. We had both suicide and mental illness in our family and my mother was, guess what? A psychiatric nurse! An expert! She was always "setting people up". If ever anybody had a problem you can be sure they "had a problem" if you know what I mean. Yea, even looking at it from the outside, srf is just one big, dysfunctional family. Any good shrink will tell you that the healthiest person in a dysfunctional family is the rebel. There is also usually a "designated patient" that "carries the family illness". In other words they act out what the other members feel.

Have no doubt that the Walrus is the healthiest thing that ever happened to srf, even though they don't know it. Think the members aren't feeling what we are talking about? I don't think so.

One of the worst things you can do in this type of situation is too get overly attached to a "villian" or "savior". Nobody is either. Yogandanda was just a great teacher. Daya is the head of the organization. To attributed extreme good or bad powers to either one, is to become more entrapped, in my opinion.

If you can't have good feelings about what Yogananda did for you (if you think he did). Then have good feelings about what you learned and what you did for yourself (I'm sure you did something and you probably had issues before, like most people). But if you just can't feel good about it, please don't further empower the guru idea by turning it into a villian! It's not worth it, it's typical fundamentalist laying every problem at the feet of satan, bs.

The dark night of the soul thing is right on. I had mine long before srf but it's perfectly normal and an "awakening of sorts". They're just afraid of it I guess (which is also understandable because it's very individual and cannot be cured or controlled by them.)

nagchampa2
Registered User
(12/13/03 9:19 am)
 the dark side of the soul
i believe the dark side of the soul is when you are in srf and can't figure out why nothing feels right. the light side of the soul is when you get out find out that everything now feels all right.

dawnrays
Registered User
(12/13/03 9:55 am)
 Re: the dark side of the soul
The "dark night of the soul" is an extreme feeling of aloneness and isolation to oversimplify. Sometimes extreme guilt goes along and it is often preceded by a period of euphoria. Many times one feels very "one with God" or even that they are God.

There are many situations like srf and many families like srf. It's not as simple as just walking away or you will walk right into another situation just like it! Your family dynamics in your own home might be similar. There are a good many daya ma's out there that are overly obsessed with and perfection. It's not that unusual.

It's very, very hard to leave a dysfunctional family. Deep down they know they are (dysfunctional) and don't trust outsiders. This is also classic dysfunctional in that it is hard for members to get outside opinions or outside relationships. I can't tell you how many times my relationship with my own husband and children was degraded by srf. There are a suprising (also) number of non-custodial parents and divorce in srf. These relationships are not important to them (your own children and spouse) so they shouldn't be important to you!

One of the best case studies on a famous, dysfunctional family was on the Brontes, a family of writing sisters the 1800's.

This is not uncovered ground, in other words.

prssmd
Registered User
(12/13/03 9:14 pm)
 h
(This message was left blank)

Edited by: prssmd at: 12/13/03 9:16 pm
prssmd
Registered User
(12/13/03 9:24 pm)
 Re: Re:Expansion; Chuckle's "How I'm handling doubts&am
username writes, "SRF spent many years manipulating its neighbors. Inviting them in for special events BUT ONLY if there was a vote coming up for which they needed their support. Then ignoring the neighbors the next year when they didn't need anything from them. Many neighbors couldn't figure it out."

Yes, it's a shame when someone is nice to you only when they want something from you. But SRF is hardly alone in behaving that way. Unfortunately, about 90% of the people in this world are only nice to other people (who aren't in their immediate family, or who haven't been their close friends for years) when they want to get something out of these people.

Of course, we expect nicer behavior out of churches--but we usually don't get it. I find that most American religious organizations and churches are only nice to new people at the very beginning when people first walk in the door--and the motive is usually merely to increase the membership and gain contributions, not to help these new people. It would be nice if more people and organizations were truly interested in helping others.

As I noted above, username wrote, "SRF spent many years manipulating its neighbors." But the conduct username described isn't really "manipulative" at all--it's just standard normal behavior. I wish it wasn't, but it is.

Edited by: prssmd at: 12/13/03 9:42 pm
etzchaim
Registered User
(12/16/03 8:16 am)
 Re: the dark side of the soul
Dawnrays writes:

"It's not as simple as just walking away or you will walk right into another situation just like it! Your family dynamics in your own home might be similar. There are a good many daya ma's out there that are overly obsessed with and perfection. It's not that unusual."

This is very true. It represents karmic patterns that will repeat themselves until the karma is either burned off or worked out to completion. I've walked into situations like my childhood repeatedly and always left wondering how I let that happen again. I also meet the same kind of people over and over again, even calling them the names of their 'twin' from 10 years ago sometimes.

Edited by: etzchaim at: 12/16/03 9:04 am
dawnrays
Registered User
(12/16/03 8:36 am)
 Mother Issues
My husband had very domineering and secretive parents who were also very conformist "republican" types. He was never able to fully shake their influence and the desire to please them so he was karmically drawn into the Navy. He has (we both have) bristled against this extremely conformist and controlling organization for almost twenty years! I have seen "his father" many times in the types of superiors he has had (some of them borderline sadistic).

It is though, kind of fun keeping score on which organization (srf or the Navy) is actually the most oppressive. The Navy is much more intrusive but srf is very subtle.

Most shrinks agree that the hardest scars are actually psychological (non-physical abuse). They are so hidden. I have always thought we both (my husband and I) were both working out karma in srf and that alot of people are. I have known alot of people in srf and other spiritual paths with "mother issues" as in very dysfunctional and unloving relationships with thier mothers. Anybody who thinks a guru relationship is too influential, should check their relationship with thier mom! Talk about a mine field sometimes!

A big attraction with srf is that it is alot of people's first exposure to the concept of the "Divine Mother" (holy spirit) as opposed to the concept of God as a "Father". It doesn't matter to me that this always existed in other places or that Yogananda was not the originator of this idea, this was the first I heard of it. There's something to be said for making concepts and ideas available to those who do not study religeon formally and just need something to get them from one day to the next!

soulcircle
Registered User
(12/16/03 10:02 am)
 please don't stop
Hi Guests, dawnrays, etzchaim and All,

dawnrays and etzchaim,

the above exchange is meaningful and sweet
what you are opening up and sharing is a win-win

non-competitive, no one, the punch, to beat
so meaningful and rich, to say thanks, i jumped in

Dave

ranger20
Registered User
(12/16/03 12:31 pm)
 Re: How I'm handling doubts
My understanding of the "Dark Night of the Soul," is that it has a somewhat specific meaning in Christian spirituality, in the book of that name, by St. John of the Cross. The phrase gets used in a much more casual way by others, including SRF, and these casual usages probably aren't going to help someone who happens to be in the real thing.

One example of "the real thing" was given in an interview with a biographer of Mother Theresa I heard recently on NPR. Aside from her initial "call" to go to Calcutta, to minister to the poorest of the poor, Mother Theresa did not really have "answers" or consolation, or direction from her God for the last three or so decades of her life. The silence of God in the life of a saint.

Thomas Keating is a Trappist monk who has commented on this aspect of Christian theology, from a point of view that includes a good grounding in developmental psychology. He says that there is an intentionality in the two dark nights described by St. John (night of the sense, night of the spirit). The intent is basically to take off your spiritual training wheels (my phrase). That means (according to Keating) you relate more and more to God from "pure faith" ie, no experiences or evidence, inner or outer.

In other words, like the honeymoon in a marriage, the "pink cloud" in a 12 step program, or the "bliss bunny" phase in SRF, the initial high ain't coming back, but if you accept that, and keep on, you can actually get to a deeper relationship with a spouse or God, that is less "oh wow," but is also less superficial. I don't think SRF addresses this at all. The implication is that if you somehow "just keep on keeping on," you'll rediscover the magic. If the "magic" has the same lifespan as the "romantic" phase of a marriage, the you can figure that every devotee whose been "on the path" much longer than 3 years probably, in their heart of hearts, wonders what they're doing wrong. Clinging to the form of the blissful exterior won't bring it back inside.

The Dark Night of Sense, according to St. John, manifests as disillusionment with one's normal pleasures, as well as one's spiritual pursuits. No joy in family, work, athletics, going to church, doing Kriya's, reading scripture. Sounds a whole lot like dysthemia, or even more serious degrees of depression. And who has access these days to a spiritual advisor who can make that discernment? It's possible that some of the SRF depressives are actually in the midst of a legitimate "spiritual crisis" that has a source and destination that have been known for hundreds of years, but all they get from SRF (through lack of knowlege of other traditions) is the exhortation to not be negative, and maybe concentrate more on their EE's. Or alternatively, perhaps because of physiology or life changes they could really benefit from medical treatment of depression, but instead hear how DM "licked it" in a few days, and they feel worse because it ain't that easy for the rest of us.

People might be better served by reading St John of the Cross directly. (Dark Night of the Soul is on the web - google on it), or even looking up Thomas Keating's "Invitation to Love." Keating also has exerpts of a book that touches on this topic online (though I haven't read this one). It's called "Crisis of Faith, Crisis of Love."

www.centeringprayer.com/crisis/index.htm

As I've said before, "be careful out there!"

Edited by: ranger20 at: 12/16/03 12:32 pm
dawnrays
Registered User
(12/16/03 2:03 pm)
 Re: How I'm handling doubts
It's kind of a new trend in the field of psychiatry to start addressing patient's spiritual issues as well as their emotional and mental ones. I like Thomas Moore's book "Care of the Soul". He is an ex-priest who became a psychiatrist and stresses the deeper needs of the soul and specifically a person's right to feel such "taboo" emotions as jealousy and deep sadness. Historically, he points out, such cultures as the ancient Greeks had a deep respect and reverence for these emotions. Even outside of srf of course, these emotions are often considered a nuisance, counter productive and unhealthy and so many people use crutches like prozac. But if you never go "down there" then I guess you never deal with the deeper problem. He is also not a big fan of pharmacueticals, like so many doctors are these days.

There is a thread on the Walrus somewhere which talks about a book relating schizophrenia to sort of an "ungrounded" realization. It is very important, in other words, for the aspirant to be able to relate and to express in his/her environment.

Is anyone familiar with this particular thread or the book it is talking about? It is a fairly old thread I believe.

Has anybody else read any other interesting books on this subject?

ugizralrite
Registered User
(12/16/03 2:16 pm)
 Re: How I'm handling doubts
"all they get from SRF (through lack of knowledge of other traditions) is the exhortation to not be negative, and maybe concentrate more on their EE's. Or alternatively, perhaps because of physiology or life changes they could really benefit from medical treatment of depression, but instead hear how DM "licked it" in a few days, and they feel worse because it ain't that easy for the rest of us."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

The snake has shed its skin and this husk we call SRF is experiencing an exodus. The anonymous walrus community is at least one of the new residences of the living teachings, teachings that have been lived in the laypersons' lives. I have been revisiting the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali and come across this comforting quote:
Book 2
45. Through devotion to Ishvara the goal of meditation (or samadhi) is reached.
46. The posture assumed must be steady and easy.
47. Steadiness and ease of posture is to be achieved through persistent slight effort and through the concentration of the mind upon the infinite.
quote from: beaskund.helloyou.ws/netn...i/toc.html

SRF won't even sell you this book anymore (at last checking).
It's now up to us, people/walri, and others like us to be a presence here, and just hope that it doesn't turn into a cult of walrus worshipers (Homer Simpson, "ooooooooooo WALRUS~). I don't think there is much chance of that, but at least there are no altar photos here, maybe people should put mirrors on their altars, or empty frames.

bsjones
Registered User
(12/16/03 2:29 pm)

ezSupporter
 Re: How I'm handling doubts
ugiz, I like the yoga sutras - they are so mathematical - i bookmarked the page you gave.

username
Registered User
(12/16/03 2:54 pm)
 patanjali
Did Yogananda do a translation of the Yoga sutras? or was SRF just reselling another's book of the subject?

ranger20
Registered User
(12/16/03 6:20 pm)
 Re: How I'm handling doubts
Quote:
It's now up to us, people/walri, and others like us to be a presence here, and just hope that it doesn't turn into a cult of walrus worshipers (Homer Simpson, "ooooooooooo WALRUS~). I don't think there is much chance of that,
Actually, there may be some danger of becoming Homer worshippers. At the last Convocation, I was watching some TV between events ( heresy! heresy!) and saw an item that in a poll in Great Britain, Homer Simpson had been voted the most influential living American. Casually mentioning this to a visiting university professor from Britain, she said emphatically, yes, that her students very frequently quote Homer, even on their papers.

What? Oh, you weren't talking about worshipping Homer after all. Doh!

ugizralrite
Registered User
(12/16/03 7:55 pm)
 Re: How I'm handling doubts
SRF was reselling the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali, it wasn't a translation by Yogananda.

JoshHiram
Registered User
(12/17/03 5:17 am)
 Re: How I'm handling doubts
For those interested, you can read St. John of the Cross's Dark Night of the Soul at:


www.ccel.org/j/john_of_th...night.html

JosH

Edited by: JoshHiram at: 12/17/03 5:18 am
Borg108
Registered User
(12/17/03 6:22 am)
 Patanjali
There are many translations and commentaries of the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali. One that I like is by Baba Hari Dass of Mt Madonna Center available form Sri Rama Publishing. (There is a full page photo of Lahiri Mahasaya inside!) This is an important book that gives the entire philosophical basis of yoga meditation. If SRF were more grounded in this philosophy (yama,niyama, Ishwara pranidhan) they might behave better.

There has been talk for years about SRF publishing Yogananda's commentary on this book. I have copies of the Patanjali lectures he gave, and they are very off topic most of the time. I think it would be hard to edit them into something. Some of the more basic elements are listed in God Speaks With Arjuna.

redpurusha
Registered User
(12/17/03 1:30 pm)
 Re: please don't stop
Dave (soulcircle),

Are you the one who on the SRF-devotee message board once posted a photo of himself on a motorcycle? This is a couple of year back, but I remember it was either a dave or david. If it was you then you are poet yogi on a Harley, burning up karma, but if it wasn't then you are just a poet yogi on walrus.

Title: Poet Yogi on a Harley

With grace and cheer
He rode onto the board
With nothing to fear

With a full tank of gas
No, a full tank of beer
No, a full tank of poetry
To make everyone revere!

Edited by: redpurusha at: 12/17/03 1:32 pm
soulcircle
Registered User
(12/17/03 3:10 pm)
 top of the line
You mean that Screaming Eagle ..top of the Harley line

My daughter has been on a Harley in the last couple of years....owned by the guy in Fast and Furious (the original), Matt Schulze.....the guy on the outside of a semi cranking along at 80 miles an hour

But I have not had a leather seat
between my legs
with feet
on harley pegs

in the last two years

yet i wonder who reveres
the empty pit
between my ears

yet here i sit
as kriya evolves my lunacy
the empty wit
between my devil horns, Pegasus, I be
and leaping
into Holidays and New Years
you all old friend keeping
in laughter and tears

i love you all
and as it ends at the New Years Ball
finding new embrace in '04 with those coming to the call
those fresh souls and hearts, as they do from SRF's plight fall

redpurusha sower of fun and happiness
from you I feel your bliss, Goddess bless
you

poem circle
fresh with the magic of you

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