Kriya Initiation discipleship?

SRF Walrus

Mt. Washington, Ca

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Gray beard Registered User (1/9/02 9:25 pm) Reply	Kriya Initiation discipleship? I have been caring some doubt in my heart concerning whether PY is my guru. Which is weird since I've considered him to be for over 30 years. It says in the AY (1959 edition) that "In 32 years the great guru personally initiated in yoga 100,000 students." About a year or more ago, out of the blue I had the thought, 'how can Master be eternally responsible for so many disciples, and the one's that he has never known (those who came after his death). How can any guru accept a chela who he doesn't even know and assume responsiblity for until the chela's liberation in God?' I reasoned that Master was a Sad-guru, a world savior like Jesus, that based upon his avatara state he had the ability to accept disciple's that he didn't know, millions of them. But that didn't satisfy my heart completely and I was left with doubt. As the quote above from the AY says, he initiated 100,000 STUDENTS. Maybe just semantics? I don't think so. And I was to find out that when Master gave kriya initiation he didn't accept that person as his chela. He did that through a completely different initiation; the chela initiation. More profound and just the type one would expect his guru to give, "I give you my unconditional love, will you give me yours?" But he gave 100,000 students kriya initiation. Not chela vows which, as I've said, are until the liberation of the chela. These vows are not one way. The guru must assume a great deal (like postponing his Ultimate Release) when he accepts a chela, and any reasonable person would agree, I feel, that there were some people of the 100,00 who became his chela's, but the vast majority never did because they weren't ripe, or they weren't his from past incarnations, or they didn't have the desire to find God that he wanted, etc. etc. I learned that he complained that 'people receive kriya and leave,' meaning to other churches. The Board, encouraged by Binay Narayan from India, interpreted Master's lament to mean that they had to create a link not to just SRF as the giver of kriya but to Master; so they devised making the kriya initiation the chela vow initiation, thereby combining the two to fix the problem of people not taking their kriya seriously and flitting off somewhere else. In other words it was a decision fostered, in good faith, by the Board, trying to be good disciples. But that's not how one becomes a chela. The guru has to confer his protection, himself, on the aspirant; after all it's for eternity. It can't be done through his disciples. They can play a role in the form of what is called an upa guru, that is, someone who teaches the chela the spiritual path and how to walk it but isn't responsible for the chela's soul. That's the guru-deva, the liberated one who lives in Realization and thus can give the seeking chela his heart's desire. I love Master as much as ever. But I've not been able to resolve this doubt. And if I ever decide that Master didn't enter into a guru/disciple relationship with me, as I was lead to believe, I will still practice his sadhana for I believe it to be potent and able to swiftly move one far along the path to God. Thanks
Gray beard Registered User (1/10/02 3:33 pm) Reply	Re: dealing with my doubts Thank you so very much for the kindness of your reply. It seems synchronistic for your to refer me to the Vedanta Society. I frequently visit there, the Hollywood Temple and even sometimes the Trabuco Canyon monk's retreat in Orange County, to buy books and incense. I've never discussed anything more with the monks in the bookstore than I'm a member of SRF. Another thing about the perfect timing of your post. I have considered changing my church-attendance to the Vedanta Society as I feel that to support SRF by attending services there is not for me anymore. I have read all of the books about Sri Ramakrishna Paramahansa, some Vivekananda etc. I have always been very drawn to Ramakrishna but felt it disloyal to let my feelings get to strong in that regard. I will go there and speak with a monk, or even the swami that is in charge. I didn't know that PY had accepted Vivekanandaji as his guru, although he dedicated an entire chapter to Master Mahasaya in the AY. One swami who is very critical of PY in the books he publishes, I think he's in San Diego, says in one of those books Biography of a Yogi that PY was a constant visitor at the Dakshineswar Temple complex which means he must have been associated with the direct disciples of Sri Ramakrishna like Brahmananda, Shivananda, Premananda, before he met Sri Yukteswarji. Thank you again for your advice. It means a lot to me. Peace to you
jaded Unregistered User (1/10/02 5:53 pm) Reply	Re: Vedanta society This post has meant a lot to me, too. I have also begun to wonder if Yogananda is my guru. Many of the same reasons. Would you, greybeard, be so kind as to post your experience when you go to their place? It wouldn't be easy for me to get there but if you find it very helpful I will make the effort. I have tried to do this stuff for about 30 years and I feel, in many ways, I am farther away now than when I started. What gives? All the SRF people can do is tell me I have to try harder. Really, that's it. And I've talked to a lot of them. One nun at an Encinitas retreat said, "Just do it." That's the extent of her advice.
username Registered User (1/10/02 6:44 pm) Reply	Re: Vedanta society of southern california You can e-mail monks or nuns on the vedanta society of southern california's web site. At the Hollywood center you can make an appointment with one of the monks, either Swami Sarvadevananda or Swami Swahananda (this is the man in charge - he is the only one who initiates) You make an appointment by calling the bookstore and telling them you want to make an appointment. 323-465-7114 Sanskrit classes start sunday jan 13 at 9:00am in the sunday school room. $70 for 8 weeks or something like that. Classes at hollywood in the evening Tues, Wed and Thurs start at 7:30. There is a meditation every evening at 6:00pm. It starts off with bells, then people leave between 6:30pm and 7:20 pm depending on what they have to do. Also, Sunday Jan 13, there is a special talk by John Dobson, who teaches classes there each winter in astronomy. (He used to be a monk at Vedanta in Northern California) He gives a very interesting class. Call the bookstore for his class schedule or ask to speak with him. January 19 is a day long workshop exploring peace through the arts.
Gray beard Registered User (1/10/02 9:14 pm) Reply	Re: Vedanta society Isn't it strange, my friend to find ourselves here 30 years later wondering even if we have a connection to the man who we've believed to be our guru-dev? And to have these feelings of disillusionment with the way his society has been administered and changed so radically by those whom he 'trained to takeover and act according to his wishes.' I am learning that the real connection is within us all the time and that we do need real spiritual encouragement, help, direction, and even discipline from someone who has walked the path, realized some of the hardships and can offer real and meaningful aide. I have not found anyone like that in SRF, and like you I feel that many of the monastics, the ones that are now coming to prominence might not be any more further along the path than I am. If we could speak with the senior members of the society, share our difficulties and receive the wisdom their garnered from their walk on the spiritual path it would go a long way to helping me to understand and move forward. But as you know there simply isn't anyone that fits that bill. They are not going to deign to meet with the lowly devotees who struggle through daily tests and who need specific direction from living souls, not lessons however much their value (the written word can never offer specific advice tailored to the needs of particular devotee's). So as I said I will always love guruji, Yogananda. The Tibetan Buddhists have a tradition within Mahayana wherein it is accepted as normal for a devotee to have more than one guru. They even have a name for the guru who first helped them plant their feet upon the spiritual path: root-guru, meaning he/she planted the seed that rooted the devotee to the path. But they accept teachings and inititations from other Buddhist teachers they feel in tune with without any negation of their loyalty to their root guru. If I do join the Vedanta Society, and I have nothing but admiration for them, I will always be grateful to Yoganandaji for leading me to this point. I will let you know how it goes. My family and I are going to Sunday services at Hollywood Temple this Sunday and I am going to make an appointment to meet with the Swami (who is from India) to discuss this things that are weighing upon my heart. Blessings to you on your quest. The post below yours is filled with information concerning the Vedanta Society of Southern California. You mentioned speaking with a nun at Encinitas; well Vedanta Society is also located in San Diego. Here is a link to the main page of the Vedanta Society www.vedanta.org/cent/hwtemple.html There are links that will provide you with all the information you need. Joy and Peace to you
premdas Registered User (1/10/02 10:24 pm) Reply	Namast� Gray Beard Friend Gray Beard, I know SRF has definately lost its way when I read your recent posts. How sad for them, but more, how sad for you. Let me explain. To me, whether or not you stay w/Master is not a problem; its your path! And you are definately heart and mind balanced (as seen through your writings). You still love guruji, but/and are having doubts, not because of him, but because of those who claim to represent him. So. hypothetical/metaphysical question -- who is he, really? What relationship are you able to maintain with him now that he is no longer "in body"? How do you get to him? I pose these questions because you already know the answers. He to me is a representation of the Divine, of god's love for me on all levels of my existence. He has shown and led me to bliss and freedom long after his death. I never in this lifetime ever met him; I'm too young! But here's my point; I've met Master's soldiers, not just those living in his house. (did you ever hear about what he said about all those mice living in Mt. Washington? Just because they were there didn't guarentee them liberation!) I am blessed to have constant contact/satsang/guidance from those trained by him and his disciples. Independent thinkers, like this board, too! This channeling of PY's mission is real, effective and growing. It helps and sustains me as a householder dinwardly and socially as I get to live it with other like-minded souls and devotees. This is the real difference, I believe, between our circumstance, dear friend. I will pray that your path open for you and lead you to Realization -- through the right ray for you, with the right guru or guides that you need and that sustain you. I bow to you for demanding the right path and the right treatment of your soul. Here is SRF's biggest problem: a loyal devotee/chela who wants connection with the true legacy of his guru, and they can't give it to him! Why? Because people aren't important enough as compared to their agendas and organization's needs. They are not relating to individual souls! I live where I do because this specific ray of master's puts people above things and org.s almost every time! In fact, its our by-line: "People are more important than things." Isn't this the crux of all of the yamas/niyamas? Love thy neighbor as thyself? How can a soul progress to real samadhi without first knowing beyond a doubt that we must honor and respect all of God's creation, especially in the souls of those we've been graced to know. And to be given the mantel to shephard others, such as SRF monastics have vowed to do in Guruji's name and then to abandon/lose/ignore this great calling, well, this to me is reprehensible and thereby cutting their own noses to spite their faces! And its showing right here and throughout this board. How will PY's energy continue to flow through them when they themselves have closed themselve and his org. as channels to his essential mission. The channel is blessed by what flows through it. They were to be the repository and an active arm of this wave of Yoga/Christianityand Vedanta. Their fruit is beginning to show signs of rot and neglect. We here at Walrus are not making these things up; look at Pig Ma's postings. How could anyone who had sense ignore her or boot her out of her many services. Thinking she's disloyal? I know her well. She's loyal, darn it! She's extremely intelligent and heart centered. And she wants to grow through Master's grace and teachings. And they turn her out.... She's not alone and neither are you. I know you live or frequent S. Cal by your posts. If I were you, I too would be looking for others at my level and beyond for true satsang and sadhana. I send you prayers and blessings that you do! And I would be remissed if I didn't invite you to come see that where I live has real satsang and real practitioners and teachers in Master's bhav and energy. I've never experience divine friendship as I have here. You can judge for yourself. At one time, I too, considered Encinitas as a living area. To this day, I still take pilgrimage there and bask in Master's strong energy in the Gardens. I love it there.... I'm not saying come, join us, you'll find bliss everlasting. I'm saying that Master's dreams are manifested somewhere and not too far away that you can't come and visit, seclude, question, meet others so much like yourself, and meditate. You can join this great work no matter where you live. If you were to visit, I would be happy to show you around and share with you the work and disciples of Master you'd feel comfortable calling your own. And no "my way is the right and only way" stuff. I just want to show you that if master is still that important in your life, maybe this is a drawing of your soul and life to experience what he dreamed and put into the ether years ago, that some of us never forgot. My spiritual name is Premdas. Ask for me, brother. It would be an honor. And as a gurubai, I offer you Master in both of us. I truly am sorry for the little caring our misguided brothers and sisters have shown you and others who deeply love Master. I hope you find peace. God is Love: You are that. Namast�. In Master, Premdas Edited by: premdas at: 1/10/02 10:34:43 pm
truth Unregistered User (1/11/02 8:09 am) Reply	Is Yogananda the guru? I liked all of your posts, but I fail to understand, what can be gained by going to another org (which will also not be perfect) to make contact with another "dead" Guru, which once also was sought out by Yogananda. Will history not repeat itself? Should one not focus on God instead and use the learned techniques with intuitional guidance?
mangomoy Registered User (1/11/02 11:24 am) Reply	To Greybeard Your comments about PY being your guru are scaring me. I never knew he had a separate chela-acceptance ceremony. If you can give more info about that it'll be appreciated. I thought I entered the guru-chela relationship eternally when I took kriya. Maybe that's not true?? Your scaring me! For whatever it's worth, I came to SRF after several years of involvement with Vedanta Society of So. Calif in the 1960's, in Montecito, Hollywood and occasional events in Trabucco Canyon. The lead minister then was Swami Prahbhavananda, who has passed away. My attraction to SRF was (a) the techniques, and (b) that SRF is a hybrid spanning Hinduism & Christianity. Vedanta is more straight Hinduism, strongly Bhakti Yoga. In the end it seemed to me that a person really has to be deeply immersed in the culture of India for it(merely a personal impression), while Master's teachings are supposed to be accessible independent of the national culture one was raised in. Vedanta is a bigger organization, and it can be pleasant to visit their facilities. The beauty of their Montecito temple ranks with the beauty of our Lake Shrine. I never saw their temples in San Francisco or St. Louis. Just be aware that, similar to what you find on this Walrus board, Vedanta has its detractors too. For example, Agehananda Bharati, whom I had the privilege of meeting, wrote about his experiences as a Vedanta monk in India, in his fascinating book, The Ochre Robe, which I recommend to you. He found their ashram life excessively rule-bound, and rigidly heirarchical, almost militaristic. Bro. Turiyananda at Lake Shrine once told us Vedanta and SRF are the "ivy league" of yoga. There are, however, points of disagreement between them. For example, we say Babaji was Krishna, while they say Ramakrishna was Krishna. We say kriya is the technique for this age, while they focus on bhakti/japam, etc. Their Montecito bookstore is fun to browse because it's way more ecclectic than ours. Greybeard, if you can give any further details about Master accepting people as chelas separately from giving them kriya, I'd appreciate hearing them. I've gotten a lot of good out of your several very thoughtful posts on Walrus. Thank you.
chela Unregistered User (1/11/02 1:49 pm) Reply	Vedanta Society v. SRF I lived near the Vedanta Society in Hollywood for years and attended services and the bookstore many times. They fill the gaps in SRF's teachings nicely. I like the fact that they embrace all of Hinduism and are not as chokingly exclusive as SRF, who only deal with Yogananda's teachings and SRF books and stuff to the exclusion of everything and everyone else. At Vedanta bookstores you can find the Vedas, Upanishads, every conceivable and imaginable Hindu topic and author, it's very complete. Conversely, their meditation techniques are like kindergarten compared to SRF, which is the only thing that keeps me in SRF. Also in Vedanta Soc. you have to be initiated personally by the Swami, they scoff at initiation by mail. Aside from that, I found everything else you find in SRF and all organizations. Politics, personal rivalries, pettiness, jealousy, hatred, people in positions of authority who have no qualifications for that whatsoever, bad management, nasty people on power trips, you name it. The facade is very beautiful and peaceful, just like SRF. But if you dig just a little beneath the surface the ugliness is there.
username Registered User (1/11/02 6:12 pm) Reply	vedanta society interesting- I have not come across any power trips, or nasty ness or ugliness etc at vedanta. Please explain
grey beard Unregistered User (1/11/02 9:23 pm) Reply	Short missive re: discipleship I'm having difficulty with my brower staying on-line. Until I get that fixed I'll have to just write something short. My post was just my doubts which I've had for sometime and are something, that in hindsight, I should not have made public. The information of the separate discipleship initiation was taken from the anandaanswers.com website. I've just gone there and re-read what Kriyananda writes concerning the issue. He seems to hedge his remarks by saying that he doesn't know for sure whether Master's kriya initiation, given during his lifetime, was the chela vows. That the renunciates took a separate chela vow and he doesn't know for sure when Master gave kriya to students if that was discipleship. That has changed since the first time I read it. That doesn't mean it's Kriyananda fault. I take responsibility for any alarm I've caused those good disciples of PY. I apologize for all of the pain and concern that I've caused with my dark doubt. I love Yogananda. Have always considered him to be my guru. And thank you all for writing about what lies at the heart of all spiritual organizations, Vedanta included. The veneer is beautiful but like all, even SRF, there's another view from the inside. Again I sincerely apologize for causing anyone to doubt their chela relationship with Paramahansa Yogananda. In humility
gray beard Unregistered User (1/11/02 9:31 pm) Reply	You're Right On Friend You've stated it just right. I wasn't going to change my internal feelings of somehow being attuned to PY's light and the path he teaches, just find another spiritual church/temple that might be able to help me with my doubts. But you have lay you finger on the issue. The good and holy gurus have all passed on, whether it is PY or RK. I never wanted to become the disciple of a monk of the RK order anymore than I want to become the disciple of a SRF monk. So I apologize for all the unnecessary alarm and concern. Thanks for your succient and accurate portrayal of just leaving one path for another that's not any different in terms of 'living gurus.'
curious Unregistered User (1/13/02 7:03 pm) Reply	Yogananda asked Vivekananda to be his guru? When did Yogananda ask Vivekananda to be his guru? Yogananda was born the same year that Vivekananda gave his Chicago Parliament address, 1893. Vivekananda died only 8 years later in 1902.
Parabastha Unregistered User (1/14/02 2:57 am) Reply	Clarification Yogananda asked Master Mahasaya, not Sw. Vivekananda, to be his guru, and Master Mahasaya told him that his destined guru (Sri Yukteswar) would come later--see AY, chapter 9. In the same book, Yogananda tells of one of his American disciples, Mr. Dickson, who in 1893 asked Sw. Vivekananda to be his guru, and SV told him that his guru (Yogananda) would come later--see AY, chapter 47.
truth Unregistered User (1/14/02 6:36 am) Reply	is Yogananda the guru Dear xxxxxxxxxxxx, I see what you mean and I am glad for you. I know a woman in SRF who also would rather have a guru in the flesh for guidance. I personally am a bit unsure regarding this issue, because I would not know how to deal with a non-perfected guru. What would be the difference to one of my spiritual friends, who take the path seriously and try to live it? Edited by: srfwalrus at: 4/16/02 8:43:23 pm
truth Unregistered User (1/14/02 6:53 am) Reply	to Usename Dear xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, just read your post above and I have to say that I really liked it. Informative, open and loving. Seems like "junior high" at SRF could not really ruin your higher spiritual education ;-) Edited by: srfwalrus at: 4/16/02 8:43:01 pm
gray beard Unregistered User (1/16/02 7:25 pm) Reply	Thank you Premdasji Many apologies for not getting back to your beautiful post in this thread but I've been having some problems with my server. I would love to visit Ananda and it would be a honor to be shown around the place by you. My family and I have discussed it and we just might make it up there this summer, still tenative and in the discussion stage, but if not this year then next. I've always wanted to visit and maybe even take in a workshop or two that I see offered on the website. Until a guru materalizes in front of me (meaning never) and tells me that I'm his very own I will consider Master to be my guru. I've thought about it and my spiritual qualities aren't at the level that made it possible for me to incarnate with Master and be with him in person this lifetime. But the spiritual sadhana he gave us can take us to the very seat of the Godhead so that will be my spiritual focus, kriya yoga and the path of Master. Again thank you for posting such an inspirational, kind and loving post. It means a lot to me to have your friendship in Master. Namaste
Atavika Unregistered User (1/17/02 5:42 am) Reply	More Clarification Dear Parabastha, In the AY book in chapter 47, I RETURN TO THE WEST, Yogananda goes to the Parliament of Religions, sees Swami Vivekananda who tells him that he is not his guru. He is then told that his guru will give him a silver cup.
Parabastha Unregistered User (1/17/02 3:36 pm) Reply	Re: More clarification Did you read it correctly? It was not Yoganandaji, but his disciple Mr. Dickson. He is telling his story to Yogananda. Read it again.
Parabastha Unregistered User (1/17/02 3:40 pm) Reply	Re: More clarification Dear Atavika: Did you read it correctly? It was NOT Yoganandaji, but his disciple Mr. Dickson. He is teeling his story to Yogananda. Please read it again.
username Registered User (1/23/02 9:23 am) Reply	Re: to Mangomoy How do you "join" vedanta? What do you mean by that anyway? guru is a mean that means teacher Vedanta monastic life is detailed in Christopher Isherwood's Diary which is a large book published by someone. It may be in your local library. It is his diary when he was a monk at Vedanta.

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