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SRF Walrus > Discussions about Yogananda > Humans are multi-faceted in their behavior
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didgeridootoo (4/12/04 9:25 am) Reply	Re: wiser souls (WindChimes44) chime in!!!!!!! The subject of Yogananda is a tough subject for all of us. Some who are hurt by what they believe to be true about him, want to spread the word, which is understandable. I am not innocent of this. Others don't wish to look into it, and some who do search into the matter, don't know what to believe. When reading "A Path With a Heart", I found this and so quote: "I interviewed fifty-three "Zen master, lamas, swamis, and/or other senior students about their sex lives and the sexual relations of the teachers. What I discovered was quite simple. The birds to it, the bees do it, and most gurus do it too. Like any group of people in our culture, their sexual practices varied. There were heterosexuals, bisexuals, homeosexuals, fetishists, exhibitionists, monogamists, and polygamists. There were teachers who were celibate and happy, and those who were celibate and miserable; there were those who were married and monogamous, and those who had many clandestine affairs; there were teachers who were promiscious and hid it; and there were those who were promiscuous and open about it; there were teachers who made conscious and committed sexual relationships an aspect of their spiritual lives; and there were many more teachers who were no more enlightened or conscious about their sexuality than everyone else around them. For the most part the "enlightenment" of many of these teaches did not touch their sexuality." After reading this, I first became somewhat disturbed, and then as I thought about it, I realized that gurus are human. Whether Yogananda did or did not have sex with his devotees is something each person has to decide for himself. But what I have found for myself is, I don't want to look up to another guru as being God, not even one believed to be an avatar. We are searching for God, even the guru and being human we all make mistakes. This doesn't mean that I would follow a guru who is harming his devotees in any way, but it does mean that one should have their eyes wide opened to such things.
redpurusha Registered User (4/12/04 12:48 pm) Reply	Re: Humans are multi-faceted in their behavior >"Yogananda liked to dress them in gauze-like material and exotic scents and nothing else, and with a recorded Indian musical accompaniment, have them strip and enter a perfumed bubble bath, after which he performed various supposedly traditional religious ceremonies." It is my speculation that P. Yoganadna didn't attain the highest state of realization (Nirvipka(?) Samadhi) until some couple years before his exit. Up to that point, he was a highly advanced and capable master, but not safe completely from delusion. However, whatever lower desires he would have fulfilled or human errors he would have made in the still-developing spiritual stages, this particular accusation doesn't prove much, other than he performed some aquatic initiations on naked women. This does not equate to sexual abuse, as far as I understand it (my very limited knowledge of it). The biggest evidence for Yogananda's innoconce is the lack of personal accounts coming from the allegedly sexually abused women. I admit of not knowing the details of these events, but I also have not heard of any of these women come forth, saying they were abused some way (other than the one who declined to go through the procedure), but she was not taken by force upon refusal, so I don't see the big deal. On the other hand, I can also see why someone would have hesitation or fear of such a procedure. I welcome the possibility of Yogananda having sexual relations to some degree (with mutual consent), but I seriously doubt this due to lack of the women coming forth. Someone like Donald Walters, on the other hand, has admitted to sexual relations (with mutual consent) with former members of his group. There is undeniable evidence in that case, but not with Yogananda. Either way, this has almost no effect on how I am inspired by Yogananda or his teachings. Edited by: redpurusha at: 4/12/04 3:03 pm
redpurusha Registered User (4/12/04 3:02 pm) Reply	Re: Humans are multi-faceted in their behavior Another thing, there is quite a different general view outside of the US (Europe at least) on nuditity and sex. For example, in most countries it is no big deal if breasts are shown on tv, while in the US a media hysteria was created when Janet Jackson showed one of her breasts only partially covered. People from other cultures laugh at this reaction, or at least don't understand all the hoopla. While here sexuality is suppressed, yet violence and murder is very common in most movies. This is the opposite (from my experience) in most european countries. While alcohol is suppressed here (resulting in teenagers letting loose in college and drinking irresponsibly, binging), european nations encourage youth to learn how to drink responsibly. Anyway, the point I am making is that nuditity does not equal sex and also its more accepted in other cultures. On the other side, there are also cultures that take these issues to even higher extremes of suppression (and we all know what madness has come out of the middle east).
WindChimes44 Registered User (4/12/04 5:43 pm) Reply	Chime! Didg-- That is so sweet! But in fact, in this wonderful group I feel like the spiritual tag along little sister! LOL! Which feels just fine. I agree with your post wholeheartedly, and think you put it well. The whole ‘National Enquirer looks at gurus’ thing is, for me, like anything else of that nature-- mostly just another somewhat sordid entertainment - oohing and ahhing and tsking over Elvis’ alien baby or the bearded lady or the two headed calf, or the political form: the republican shrine to Bill Clinton’s private parts. LOL! Humans love gossip. As to the ‘seriousness’ of the charges (if juicy gossip can ever deserve to be called serious), for myself I think most religions missed the boat when sex was labelled evil. Of course I could easily be wrong. (It HAS happened a few times that I was wrong. LOL!) Sex is powerfully emotional, of course, and I do see that it is easy to become delusionally attached where emotion is so powerful. But sex is a natural part of being human and for me finding wholesome ways to express all the parts of being human seems like a good idea. Of course breaking vows is another matter. And abusing the trust of devotees would qualify, in my mind, as something one would have to rectify karmically. So if any of the swamis and gurus in question took advantage of the devotion of women who otherwise would have preferred no sexual contact with them, then, to me, that is something they will need to work out and make amends for at some time in our infinite journey. I also think making such abuse inconvenient is a good idea in organizations. Chaperones are a quaint, but worthy protection. (srflongago made some sound comments along these lines.) On the other hand, I have tried to imagine how men who receive a lot of adulation must feel. I am female, but it has not escaped my notice that men are subject to sudden and very strong desires that are simply much harder to resist than what most women experience. (Girls’ version of locker room humor generally includes a form of smug fondness for how ‘easy’ boys are.) For rock stars, sports stars, film stars, millionaires, gurus, presidents... large numbers of women are always adoring them, always available, even throwing themselves at them. They have to resist very strong temptation that is quite relentless. I cannot claim, honestly, that I could resist that level of temptation my whole life. It is like having to stick to your life long fast with not one slip while smelling fresh baked bread with ice cream and candy all around you at every moment. As for PY specifically, the scandal I have read here does sound like a form such behavior might take IF he did such a thing at all. It has a playful childlike quality, and he seemed childlike toward many ‘householder’ life experiences to me, having focused on a destiny as a swami from very early life. His being the very pampered sickly younger child in a relatively wealthy family gave him a touchingly sweet form of being spoiled in a way as well. (Which he recognizes and remarks on.) The heart of the matter for me is that he does not have to have lived a life 100% free of sin or error to be a guru or to have my love and gratitude. He has opened many doors for me, and his inner guidance to me is kind and forgiving rather than harsh and judgmental. I hope those scandalous stories are not true, of course. But if they are, still, the PY I experience is what really counts for me. I would not have expected him to have never made any errors. The charm of AoY is partly in showing how a human becomes more God Realized, and that all of us can do that. For me it is not the story of god taking a body, but a man transforming himself to being more and more awake in and as god. He tells of many mistakes he made. As a child he willed a painful boil upon his sister. Misuse of spiritual power to harm another I view as serious. But he realized it was wrong, and grew from his mistake. What I gain from his telling of his mistakes-- resisting his guru, having difficulty adjusting to the discipline of the ashram, giving his family worry in his many escapades, is that even he made mistakes and learned from them. So instead of hating myself when I make mistakes (or trying to pretend I never make mistakes) I should learn from them and do better. As to tracking down the sordid tales-- I do not believe ‘the truth is out there’ this far removed in time until we advance enough to directly view the past ourselves. Memories always include point of view and also are subject to much change over time. So it is just gossip to me. I have a little rather unworthy curiosity. I am sorry to report that when I firmly examine my curiosity it is about the same as interest in any kind of off color entertainment. Bluntly stated it is a form of voyeurism.. unsavory prurient interest. (Though I am grateful my interest level is low.) Still, I am certain that I am in no position to cast any stones. If he broke his vow of celibacy I am sorry, and even more sorry if he misused the trust of young women in a way that harmed them. But I am confident he would not shirk learning from that error any more than any other. And, most important, his guidance in my life remains what it has been these many years: wonderful, generous, kindly, cheerful help. I think the many revelations concerning sexuality hidden from view in so many religious organizations should teach us as a society to create more openess, less place for non consensual, coercive or abusive sex to hide, and more wholesome sexual options for spiritually oriented people. as didg said <We are searching for God, even the guru and being human we all make mistakes. >
WindChimes44 Registered User (4/13/04 7:20 am) Reply	Re: Chime! redux red - You said several important things there! Why is violence ok to show our children, but sex not ok? Which do we want them to grow up and do? (for example) Edited by: WindChimes44 at: 4/13/04 7:24 am
redpurusha Registered User (4/13/04 11:41 am) Reply	Re: Chime! redux Wind, I don't want to redirect the discussion from Yogananda, but some governments recognize the fact that people are going to have sex and are going to drink alcohol, and if they are, then why not encourage safe sex and responsible drinking instead of banning or discouraging these altogether. I grew up mostly in the US and it's astounding how many murders and how much violence is blatanly displayed on tv. The last thing we want is a violent society but thoughts lead to actions and what we watch influences our thoughts. But, when a breast is shown nationally all hell breaks loose. "Oh my God! what is that? This is so inapropriate. Let's rent out Kill Bill on DVD and order out a bag full of lard instead." I'm generalizing, but there's a definite difference in attitude here and abroad. I understand that these pleasures are pseudo-happiness, never fully satisfying, but realistically society as a whole is not monk-like ready to abandon all desires of the flesh. The gov. should encourage: eating sensibly, if your going to drink; drink responsibly, if your going to have sex; use protection, etc. We have seen a number of examples when extreme suppression of such desires is applied: things go wrong and people go crazy. Edited by: redpurusha at: 4/13/04 11:53 am
didgeridootoo (4/14/04 10:35 am) Reply	Re: Chime! WindChimes, I think you have a healthy attitude. You are also not just a tag along sister.
WindChimes44 Registered User (4/14/04 2:40 pm) Reply	Re: Chime! LOL! Thanks didg. Though tagging along around here is pretty fine! Whatever the difficulties we have found in SRF, it has clearly produced a wise, loving, interesting bunch of rebels. Are we the SRF teenagers? All full of angst and cracking the egg, leaving the nest, shocked to discover mom and dad are human too? Maybe we need astral motorcycles! ~~~~~VROOOOOM
rachelcorrie Registered User (4/14/04 2:56 pm) Reply	The Classic 1948 Indian Chief To introduce this post: www.albogg.com/indian.html Any of you love the classic American motorcycles, see above site. No motorcycle splits the wind like the 1948 Indian Chief You are sure do it right. Hello Guests and All, Are we on our Indians or Harleys? Hehehe A bringing together of east and west WOW this joint is smoking rachel Edited by: rachelcorrie at: 4/14/04 2:57 pm
Sydfrukter Registered User (9/12/05 8:37 am) Reply	Re: Sex monastics too are multi-faceted in their behavior Hi. We tend to elaborate on sexual misconduct without having fit evidence. If we use our irritations to get wiser, what may such a topic tell us of ourselves, of latent, perhaps speculated-on sides of ourselves deep inside? I have come to wonder. In speaking of sexual misconduct of the yoganother, the best friend owns up to evidence of it. Sexual allegations have an atmosphere of sexuality around them. So reflective humans may reason and feel reasonable in maddening innocence of their own latent tendencies - perhaps. In some cases it could be as with Maggie - her bourgeouise (?) and shallow "magnificence" is not loved by her husband Jiggs, for sure, as he finds his way into beer and bars. I just wanted to add that perspective - introspection is in fact one of the things that Yogananda calls for. Let me add before they want to cover my fingers with mittens, that debaters who advance "drink responsibly" and talk for Buddhism, should be warned that one of the five "pillars" of Buddhism for lay people is to abstain from drink (and drugs). Abstain, but alcohol medicinal purposes are okayed in the tradition. Here I have dared not to accept any "drinking responsibly misconduct" as reasonable Buddhism. The truth is the best friend is a version of Reality, and Yogananda talks for and against Reality. On one hand he says truth is exact correspondence with reality, on the other hand he says the universe is illusory. "You cannot eat your cake (universe) and have it". I have gathered that much. Kind regards Edited by: Sydfrukter at: 9/12/05 9:04 am

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