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Terrie
Unregistered User
(2/24/02 12:47 pm)
Reply 		Notes On Sri Yukteswar's Yuga Theory: Part 2
THOUGHTS ON THE YUGAS: PART 2

I don't have any more personal evidence than anyone else of the truth or otherwise of Sri Yukteswar's Yuga timing. But there are several sources that give interesting clues (actually numerous details) of more advanced civilizations than our own. Two of my favorite sources are the trance readings of Edgar Cayce and Elizabeth Haich's book, INITIATION.

O.K. True. Neither of these sources is "scientific" by today's standards. But as far as I'm concerned it is equally unscientific to believe that slave labor, ropes and pulleys are responsible for setting the huge perfectly fitting pyramid stones in place (some real good scientific speculation there!!), or that the great pyramid was simply a burial tomb for a king. Cayce has a good track record of giving methods of curing numerous illnesss while in trance, and Haich's book rings true for anyone familiar with Yogananda's writings re: knowing God and liberation. (Haich supposedly relived an important life in Egypt as an initiate.)

There is no real way of telling if SY's timing is correct unless we can somehow go back to 50,000 or so years ago. However, based on Cayce's trance readings, we have certainly come a long way down since (according to Cayce) the great pyramid was built as a chamber of initiation (about 10,500 B.C., 100 years in the building). At that time, according to Cayce, mankind knew how to nullify gravity and lift great weights through chants and song. These are certainly more advanced abilities than we have today.

According to SY's theory, 10,500 BCE is already in the descending Satya yuga. But we don't know what came before that time, whether there might have been many thousands of years of advanced civilization. So we can only talk about the relatively few years of history and pre-history for which we have some evidence (as the structure of the great pyramid, for example).

In this regard the prevailing scientific view of the building of the great pyramid doesn't make as much sense as Cayce's statements. Supporting the idea of descending ages, Elizabeth Haich says that the Egyptian priests knew a darker age of ignorance was coming, and on a certain date entered the great pyramid and dematerialized the machinery within and then dematerialized themselves. The priests said that nothing would be found when the great pyramid was opened, and this is true. (And we are told in AY that spiritual Masters can materialize and dematerialize their bodies at will. Why not other matter as well?)

Here's a very interesting supporting quote for the yuga cycles from Frank Hopi's BOOK OF THE HOPI:

"Man is created perfect in the image of the Creator. Then after "closing the door," (this refers to the closing of the highest center at the top of the head) "falling from grace" into the uninhabited expression of his own human will, he begins the slow climb back upward...The four lower centers, as they successively descend in man, decrease in purity of consciousness and increase in grossness of physical function. In the fourth stage of development he reaches the lowest and MIDPOINT of his journey. The Fourth World, the present one, is the full expression of man's ruthless materialism..."

This sure sounds like India's cyclic Yuga theory, doesn't it? I found the Hopi quote in another book and want to find a copy of Water's book to see if any clue is given as to the timing of the cycles.

One more subject I want to say a few words about is the supposed lack of evidence of the use of electricity in SY's descending Dwapara Yuga. One more post on that....

Terrie
Unregistered User
(2/24/02 6:19 pm)
Reply 		Notes on the Yugas: Part 2
NOTES ON THE YUGAS: PART 2

I don't have any more personal evidence than anyone else of the truth or otherwise of Sri Yukteswar's Yuga timing. But there are several sources that give interesting clues (actually numerous details) of more advanced civilizations than our own. Two of my favorite sources are the trance readings of Edgar Cayce and Elizabeth Haich's book, INITIATION.

O.K. True. Neither of these sources is "scientific" by today's standards. But as far as I'm concerned it is equally unscientific to believe that slave labor, ropes and pulleys are responsible for setting the huge perfectly fitting pyramid stones in place (some real good scientific speculation there!!) or that the great pyramid was simply a burial tomb for a king. Cayce has a good track record of giving methods of curing numerous illnesss while in trance, and Haich's book rings true for anyone familiar with Yogananda's writings re: knowing God and liberation.

There is no real way of telling if SY's timing is correct unless we can somehow go back to 50,000 or so years ago. However, based on Cayce's trance readings, we have certainly come a long way down since (according to Cayce) the great pyramid was built as a chamber of initiation (about 10,500 B.C., 100 years in the building). At that time, according to Cayce, mankind knew how to nullify gravity and lift great weights through chants and song. These are certainly more advanced abilities than we have today.

According to SY's theory, 10,500 BCE is already in the descending Satya yuga. But we don't know what came before that time, whether there might have been many thousands of years of advanced civilization. So we can only talk about the relatively few years of history and pre-history for which we have some evidence (as the structure of the great pyramid).

In this regard the prevailing scientific view of the building of the great pyramid doesn't make as much sense as Cayce's statements. Supporting the idea of descending ages, Elizabeth Haich says that the Egyptian priests knew a darker age of ignorance was coming, and on a certain date entered the great pyramid and dematerialized the machinery within and then dematerialized themselves. The priests said that nothing would be found when the great pyramid was opened, and this is true. (And we are told in AY that spiritual Masters can materialize and dematerialize their bodies at will. Why not other matter as well?)

Here's a very interesting supporting quote for the yuga cycles from Frank Hopi's BOOK OF THE HOPI:

"Man is created perfect in the image of the Creator. Then after "closing the door," (this refers to the closing of the highest center at the top of the head) "falling from grace" into the uninhabited expression of his own human will, he begins the slow climb back upward...The four lower centers, as they successively descend in man, decrease in purity of consciousness and increase in grossness of physical function. In the fourth stage of development he reaches the lowest AND MIDPOINT of his journey. The Fourth World, the present one, is the full expression of man's ruthless materialism..."

This sure sounds like India's cyclic Yuga theory, doesn't it? I found the Hopi quote in another book and want to find a copy of Water's book to see if any clue is given as to the timing of the cycles.

One more subject I want to say a few words about is the supposed lack of evidence of the use of electricity in SY's descending Dwapara Yuga. One more post on that....

Musicman
Unregistered User
(2/25/02 7:57 am)
Reply 		Yugism
For a topic that several thoughtful contributors claim is not central to the teachings, there is certainly a spirited defense of Yugism going on here. That's fine. I have no appetite for odium scholasticum, and I'm willing to concede on all points. There are a couple of things I'd like to clarify.

My concern is with sematics. I do not consider the Yugas or the SRF teachings science, and I think it's dangerous to misconstrue our Western notion of science to force it to accommodate ideas and disciplines that lie outside that domain. However, I would never dream of saying that, because something is pseudo-scientific, it has no validity, worth, value, or meaning. Although it's a rather reductionist notion, I believe that science deals with the "how" of things, and religion the "why." Religion explores issues of meaning and purpose in a way science is utterly unequipped to do. I believe that Yugism and astrology are manifestations of a religious impulse, not of empirical scientific inquiry. But that doesn't invalidate them! We simply have to understand them in a different way. They are based, like religion, to a large extent on faith and belief, on a more subjective relationship with the natural world. And that's great! But they must not be confused with science, for their own sake as much as for science's.

Here is an example. Okay, let's say Yugism is valid. When was the first Yuga and how many cycles have there been? Where did people first materialize on this planet? When will the Yugic cycles cease? Now, we don't know everything we would like to know about human origins, evolution, and the destiny of the solar system. But we have learned a great deal and expect to know more through the methods of science. What method inheres in Yugism that would allow us to draw closer to some answers to the above questions? The meditations of a God-realized master? Well, there's that personal subjective experience again, which we would have to take on faith if Swami So-and-So came up with "answers" in a fit of samadhi.

It may seem petty or churlish to criticize monastics who are guilty of nothing more than presenting their pet ideas about history and science to a credulous public. But I believe that in fact that is a serious intellectual crime, especially since dialogue and dissent are always discouraged in SRF. Feedback and opinions are never solicited by the monastics; in fact, the opinions of experts and authorities seem to me to be routinely disregarded in a most contemptuous way. We are meant to accept questionable statements like nice, passive devotees. I believe that we all have a responsibility to question self-appointed authority, especially the kind clad in ochre.

Let me tell you a brief story, then I'll be gone. A long time ago there was a flourishing culture, which had built impressive cities and architectural monuments, possessed a sophisticated agricultural system that kept its people well fed, and was highly organized and effective in war. The people were very gifted in the arts, especially dancing, music, and design. But they were also very superstitious, and they believed everything their rulers told them, especially the priests, who had special knowledge gleaned from the stars.

One day, strange ships were sighted off the coast of the empire. They were unlike anything anyone had seen before. The people sailing them were also unusual, with very white skin, some with blue eyes and curly hair, and even beards. They wore odd metal clothes and rode huge four-legged beasts. They had bizarre, barrel-shaped machines that made deafening explosions. Surely these were gods returning in fulfillment of prohesy. The priests and astrologers confidently declared that the advent of these gods had been foretold long ago, and that it would take place in this very year.

In superstitious awe and reverence, the people and their leaders allowed the strangers to enter their empire and their capital city, where they treated them like visiting divinities. They soon realized, however, that these were men like themselves, not gods, and that they were not to be trusted. But it was too late. Before long, this culture lay in ruins, its temples destroyed, its people enslaved and forced to worship new gods and abandon the old ways. This is what their priests, their legends, and their credulity had brought upon them.

Of course, this is a description of the conquest of the Aztecs by the Spaniards, who simply supplied a new set of religious superstitions that would hamper Mexico's social and political development for centuries.

This is the very real danger posed by confusing mythology with science. The two are important to us, but we must respect the different functions they serve and maintain the crucial distinctions between them. That's all I'm saying, and now--I say only one more thing.

Someone wrote,

"Musicman, . . . the central teaching is kriya yoga and what you call 'subjective personal experience' within. If that 'purely subjective personal experience' has a definite and sure affect on your outer life and your state of mind, must it not then have some concrete reality? or be rooted someway in a concrete substance or a reality of existence?"

That's a big IF. As you scan this board, you will see that the results of the teachings and of meditation are anything but predictable, regular, or mathematical in any way. People's experience of these teachings runs the gamut from ecstatic to suicidal. 2+2 = 4 under all normal circumstances, in our universe at least. But regular meditation and following the other teachings do not have a mathematically certain outcome. Again, the testimony on the board, and the behavior of the Bad Ladies, is abundant proof of that. But if you feel benefitted by kriya and the teachings, then I rejoice and wish you even more of the same. Ciao.

Terrie
Unregistered User
(2/25/02 8:24 pm)
Reply 		Notes on the Yugas: Part 3
NOTES ON THE YUGAS: PART 3

Vega said:
"Perhaps the most damning evidence against Sri Yukteswar's model of the Yugas is the lack of ... evidence! Yogananda and Yukteswar claim that in past higher ages man already had very sophisticated machines and airplanes and traveled to other planets and such. Yet there is no evidence of this anywhere. Dwapara is called by PY and SY the electrical age."

"Since according to them we have already been through many Dwaparas before, where is the evidence of all these electrical things?... no electrical wiring or telephones or televisions or radios or air conditioners or electrical appliances... And yet the last Dwapara age before this one is certainly within the time frame of the excavations...".

Yukteswarrocks said: If there is evidence of nuclear reactors, spaceflight, and transcontinental railroads from 12,000 or 24,000 years ago, by all means, let's see it..."
       
(First, I'd like to know where in Yogananda's writings these references are to a higher civilization? I don't remember reading about travel to other planets, sophisticated machines, etc. Please give the references for these. Thanks.)

Now, my comments: What makes you think that the form that electricity takes today (through numerous wires, batteries, telephone lines, TVs full of chips and tubes, etc.) have to resemble how electricity was used in the supposed descending Dwapara Yuga? There's a big difference between building up from nothing (as today) and holding on to the tail-end of a higher Yuga and more sophisticated knowledge (as in a descending Dwapara).

Electricity pervades the universe. How about other ways of the conduction and use of electricity? We're just getting into wireless use with satellites, cell phones, wireless keyboards, etc. In a descending Dwapara Yuga, it's doubtful if anyone would think of the conduction of electricity via wires if mankind knew how to conduct and use electricity in more advanced ways.

There are numerous references to the ancient use of electricity, air travel, machinery etc. in the Edgar Cayce trance readings. Of course these readings aren't physical proof for other civilizations, but they offer an interesting alternative to what has so far been discovered by archeological excavation. Here are a few quotes from the Cayce readings which suggest ways of utilizing electricity in higher yuga ages:
       
From a reading on Atlantis/the Inca on the time frame of many readings: "From time as counted in the present we would turn back to 10,600 years before the Prince of Peace came into the land of promise..."5750-1 In thousands of readings, Cayce described features of this advanced civilization.

Re: the early Incan civilization which had Atlantean influence: "The entity was then not only one skilled in aircraft and in watercraft and a navigator, but made great strides in keeping in touch with other lands through the forces of nature..." 1215-4 (electrical conduction?)

"For the character of the dynamo or the generators for same were used in a way and manner in which there was the transformation....in much the same manner...in which gases are now used as a means for propelling force...to act as a pump for the transformation of casing-head gas to gasoline, and the REFUSE used to produce or make the power for the machine producing same..." 470-22

"...the electrical knife was in such a shape, with the use of the metals, as to be used as the means for bloodless surgery, as would be termed today--by the very staying forces used which formed coagulating forces in bodies where larger arteries or veins were to be entered or cut." 470-33

"...the metals that were used, these were the combination then of what is now a lost art: the tempered brass...these made for lightness of structure, nonconductor or conductors of the electrical forces..." 364-6

A devout, church going Christian, Cayce was as shocked as anyone by the replies he gave to questions while in the trance state with access to the Akashic records. Cayce said we all had the abilities to read these records which we ourselves write on the skein of space and time.
       
O.K. maybe you believe that the sleeping Cayce had a tremendous imagination and nothing more. We have no way of knowing using today's tools of science if Cayce spoke the truth. But think for a moment: Where did the ability come from to understand how to put millions of bits of data on a tiny computer chip? (Except in sub-conscious past-life recall of skills and knowledge used before) Even now I can't conceive of how strings of zeros and ones can spell every single word in numerous languages and perform complex mathematics on today's computers. But someone understood the principle that underlies today's technology. Natural evolution or past remembrance?

Cayce had this to say about why we have no memory of these ancient civilizations: "Then through Mu, Oz, Atlantis - with the breaking up of these why, WHY no records of these if there were the civilizations...records made by entities or souls upon the skein of (time and space)?

"But he only who has recognized Patience within self may indeed make the record as an experience...But we, as we see in our OWN experience about us, must earn - yes, must conceive of its existence...before we may know..."

Well, it looks like we haven't made the grade yet! But we can keep on trying. There's food for thought here...a whole lot we have yet to learn and remember....

Terrie
Unregistered User
(3/5/02 4:12 pm)
Reply 		Timing of Kali Yuga
TIMING OF KALI YUGA

I've been going over Edgar Cayce's statements about ancient civilizations and also reviewing THE BOOK OF THE HOPI. Although these two sources agree on the fundamentals...four worlds, the decline of mankind, etc., the timing doesn't seem to work out for Sri Yukteswar's Yuga theory.

Cayce says the final sinking of Atlantis and its high technological civilization happened around 10,000 BCE. There were many migrations to other parts of the earth before the final sinking. Atlantis had been in decline spiritually long before 10,000 BCE...very long, at least from 22,000 BCE, maybe longer.

Here's a quote from Frank Waters' book on the Hopi:

"As the people watched them, the closest (island) sank under the water, then the next, until all were gone, and they could see only waves. "See," said Sotuknang, "I have washed away even the footprints of your Emergence; the stepping stones (islands) which I left for you. Down on the bottom of the seas lie all the proud cities, the flying patuwvotas, and the worldly treasures corrupted by evil, and those people who found no time to sing praises to the Creator from the tops of their hills..."...This at last was the end of the third world..." (p. 20) 1977 Penguin Books. Amazon.com

It would seem that the beginning of Kali Yuga was sometime around 10,000 BCE, when the advanced civilizations were destroyed and there were the migrations to other lands. Cayce said that this was the time of Noah's flood, the same as the Atlantean myth. It's interesting that in the Hopi tradition there were flying machines and big cities.

Perhaps the true length of Kali Yuga is 12,000 years rather than 1200 for each asc/dec arc, and we are nearing the junction of Dwapara. According to the Hopi, we are now in the 4th world with the choice of advancing spiritually or losing everything.

A really excellent little book on Cayce's timing is MYSTERIES OF ATLANTIS REVISITED by E.E. Cayce. This book goes into scientific discoveries and recent findings in geology that tend to support statements made by Cayce. It's a little paperback, only about $6.00.

AumBoy
Registered User
(3/14/02 9:23 pm)
Reply
ezSupporter
 7500 BC "lost river" civilisation...
Read it here: 7500 BC "lost river" civilisation could rewrite history book

Terrie
Unregistered User
(3/15/02 12:32 pm)
Reply 		Fascinating Article
Thanks, AumBoy. That is a fascinating article. The Indians will love the idea of an even more ancient civilization in India.

I'm going to continue to research what I can find of ancient history, including Cayce, the Hopi myths and archeological discoveries. For some reason this yuga question really bugs me.

I don't suppose this topic could be re-named "Errors in the Yuga Teachings?"

Who
Unregistered User
(3/15/02 7:48 pm)
Reply 		the real truth about yugas
the fact is that yugas do not really exist . They're one of many conjectures on time in the universe by an ancient civilization . there are hundreds of myths of creation and speculations on the nature of time in the origins of the universe . the Hindu conception of cycles of time holds no special place . when Ramana Maharshi was asked about yugas he replied that the questioner would have to ask someone else since he did not believe in the reality of time .


it may be best to look to modern science rather than speculations by primitive peoples on nature of the universe .

Terrie
Unregistered User
(3/15/02 9:21 pm)
Reply 		Discoveries of Science
AumBoy pointed to one discovery of modern science above.

Who
Unregistered User
(3/16/02 7:10 am)
Reply 		pseudoscience
pseudoscience is not real science. There are thousands of books purporting to prove creationism that are written by the "scientists ". However, these are not real scientists, but rather individuals with credentials and a preexisting point of view they're out to prove . their search for evidence is not a search for the truth, but is a search for anything that will support their position .
Hindu cosmology represents beautiful speculation on the part of ancient man to understand the universe . it is no more true than the stories of creation proposed by the Hopi Indians, aborigines or the Eskimos . It has little relation to modern science and its search for truth .

username
Registered User
(3/16/02 9:41 pm)
Reply 		Re: pseudoscience
Hindu cosmology.." has little relation to modern science and its search for truth"

Perhaps John Dobson would disagree.

www.sidewalkastronomers.com

thewho
Unregistered User
(3/16/02 10:30 pm)
Reply 		Re: pseudoscience
Quote:
Perhaps John Dobson would disagree.


I can't find any information on Hindu cosmology or John Dobson's opinion of it on that website.

AumBoy
Registered User
(4/8/02 9:01 am)
Reply
ezSupporter
 More "pseudoscience"
Archaeological Cover-ups

See: www.nexusmagazine.com/arcoverups.html

You might wish to reference the thread Dogma: The Hassle-Free Zone, especially the article submitted by Kevin regarding Thomas Kuhn’s “The Structure of Scientific Revolutions”.

(The Nexus article mentions Dr. Steen-McIntyre. I think she is a florist now due to her adhering to the truth.)

Edited by: AumBoy at: 4/8/02 10:45:16 am
AumBoy
Registered User
(4/8/02 9:50 pm)
Reply
ezSupporter
 The Emerald Tablets of Thoth (36,000 B.C.)
The Emerald Tablets of Thoth
By Thoth the Atlantean

I found this recently and am still reading them. I thought they would be appropriate in this discussion. I’ve excerpted the first 2 paragraphs of the preface here. You’ll note that these tablets are allegedly dated 36,000 B.C. (Yes 36 followed by 3 zeros!)

Quote:
The history of the tablets translated in the following pages is strange and beyond the belief of modern scientists. Their antiquity is stupendous, dating back some 36,000 years B.C. The writer is Thoth, an Atlantean Priest-King, who founded a colony in ancient Egypt after the sinking of the mother country. He was the builder of the Great Pyramid of Giza, erroneously attributed to Cheops. (See The Great Pyramid by Doreal.) In it he incorporated his knowledge of the ancient wisdom and also securely secreted records and instruments of ancient Atlantis.

For some 16,000 years, he ruled the ancient race of Egypt, from approximately 50,000 B.C. to 36.000 B.C. At that time, the ancient barbarous race among which he and his followers had settled had been raised to a high degree of civilization. Thoth was an immortal, that is, he had conquered death, passing only when he willed and even then not through death. His vast wisdom made him ruler over the various Atlantean colonies, including the ones in South and Central America.


This is excerpted from the first tablet:

Quote:
Emissary on Earth am I of the Dweller, fulfilling his commands so man might be lifted. Now return I to the Halls of Amenti, leaving behind me some of my wisdom. Preserve ye and keep ye the command of the Dweller: Lift ever upwards your eyes toward the light. Surely in time, ye are one with the Master, surely by right ye are one with the Master, surely by right ye are one with the All.


The tablets are online here: The Emerald Tablets of Thoth

AumBoy
Registered User
(5/14/02 8:01 pm)
Reply
ezSupporter
 History...
120 Million Year Old Map Found
english.pravda.ru/main/20...28149.html

Covering up history
www.viewzone.com/oklahoma.southend.html

Museum of Forbidden Archeology
www.mcremo.com/museum.htm

The authors of the book, Forbidden Archeology, have been under, pretty much, constant attack because they support the following ideas (with data) in their writings:
*We did not evolve from apes
*Abundant evidence against human evolution has been ignored
*Scientists cheat on a massive scale
*Museum displays use propaganda in promoting falacious ideas to the public
*Human beings were around before the time of the dinosaurs
*Signs of civilization have been found that are millions of years old
*Textbooks are inaccurate (<-- This is a real surprise! sarcasm intended)

The above list was culled from the website, so you do not have to read through it. :)

Edited by: AumBoy at: 5/14/02 8:27:38 pm
A voice in the supermarket
Registered User
(6/15/02 6:53 am)
Reply 		Sri Yukteswar's yuga teachings
THE ROCK CRADLE

The guru's treatise is foundational in the Fellowship. It is like a rock bottom, at least to some, it seems to me.

When modern astronomy doesn't seem to be in perfect rapport with it, the dilemma is met by gross "retirements" by some, with feeling thwarted by getting the discrepancies pinpointed, and "uglification" (such as branding and blaming) of critical or curious guys who may want to understand for themselves and are not too scared to hoist their own opinioins at times either.


FEAR AND/OR LOYALTY NOTIONS OF CHELAS

It may not be only fear or respect of the authority scenario in SRF that hinders full and free debates of Sri Yukteswar's work. Isn't it just as much that kriya members of SRF have sworn obedience and loyalty, and Sri Yukteswar is very much into that somehow? That's how it seems to me.

Fear may be common in authoritarian settings, but it could be the notion of being disloyal that hinders full and rational study of such as the Holy Science the most - as it is so basic in the SRF member's "universe" and often hard to get to grips with.

It seems that there are grave errors in the book as well. If so, what happens to one's view and attitudes toward the Yogananda-fostered elevation of Sri Yukteswar as incarnated wisdom, one of spotless perceptions, etc.? It becomes another problem!


REPERCUSSIONS OF LOSING AN IDEAL FIGURE

And what happens to oneself and one's attitudes next? To stay abreast of the beneficial modern developments (in such as astrology), as mangomoy takes into account, could become too difficult for very many, particularly in the beginning - due to discrepancies that breed "cognitive dissonances" (mental screechings) as they are called by some. Such conflicts hurt, but withdrawals and suppressions of problems are hardly good enough.


AN ASIDE

Rather many outlooks of Hindu philosphies have changed over time. Now it is Advaita Vedanta which is the most popular thing, according to Encyclopedia Britannica (s.v. "gurus" etc.) Earlier there were an abundance of other directions; they had their "holy gurus" who taught "gospel truth" - which now is not too relevant - Thus, things change, and the orientation and outlooks of Hindu gurus have been shown to change with time too, from Rikvedas and Upanishad to present-day "plots of Vedanta". There is much more to say about this.


IF MUCH TRUSTED TEACHINGS ARE NOT FIT OR CONSISTENT, WHO OR WHAT TO TRUST AFTER THAT?

These things puzzled me for a long time when I lacked information on guru backgrounds and tactics of propaganda.

Edited by: A voice in the supermarket at: 6/18/02 9:42:27 am
Daya Yama
Registered User
(6/18/02 10:15 am)
Reply 		Openness and being SRF-related

Yes, yes, A voice in the supermarket. Now, see if what is easily taken to be Yoganda doctrine in the AY is faultless too:


ESSENTIAL MATTER IS GRUESOMELY WRONG IN A PAGE-LONG FOOTNOTE

If your inner and growing awareness becomes a cause of troubles, it is hopefully the fault of others and not yourself – in one perspective. For even though it is easier to fight for good in yourself and not in one thousand rather free-willed others, the accumulative weight of one thousand hermits that lord it over you but are wrong in important ways, becomes too heavy to bear for some. It has showed up lately, or what? I speak of a problem.

And if you get aware that awareness is nothing but Maya – that awareness is Maya – you have a problem with the gross distortions and untruths in what could well be the infamous Tara-Mata-inserted footnote against Maya in the AY (Autobiography of a Yogi). The footnote appeared first in the late 50s.


SO SRF PUBLISHES BAD BULL ABOUT MAYA

To cut through: There is no good reason to debase Maya mentally by sloven and murky fraud as a cognitive dillettante (see AY, 9th ed, p. 284n or AY 11th ed, p. 275n).

There is much basic information on Maya here:
oaks.nvg.org/pv2bk9.html
Is the page or site blacklisted? Or does it just make guru spouses uncomfortable? Does anyone know?

Gitano no divino
Registered User
(6/19/02 12:08 pm)
Reply 		Looking reality in the face
I believe that Yogananda (and the other gurus) was at least partly, perhaps largely, responsible for the current mess in SRF. The "mess" may be hardwired into the "teachings" and thus incapable of extrication. Whenever someone tells you not to doubt, a Star Trek-style red alert ought to go off in your head. What does this person have to hide? In a famous passage in Sayings of Yogananda, the guru asserted that "truth is not afraid of questions." Nice platitude, but in the context of SRF, for chelas at least, questions are taboo. Doubting is "passé." I prefer Abelard's formulation: "It is by doubting that we come to questioning, and by questioning that we perceive the truth." This was an amazing insight for someone living in the depths of the supposed "Kali Yuga" (12th cent.). How odd that it is contradicted by a teaching (and teacher) posing as the harbinger of a higher age.

One of my biggest disappointments in SRF is that mythological constructs like the yugas and astrology are put forward in a concretized, fundamentalist way as revealed truth about history and science. I had hoped for a more subtle, sophisticated understanding of these things, on a metaphorical level. Some on this board have tried to evade the issue by saying these things are not really central to the teachings. But I believe they are absolutely central, and at any rate, they form a prominent part of the corpus of teachings on which the reputation and "enlightenment" of the guru must be evaluated. He said these things, and many others, and if they're wrong, then we can be excused for doubting his omniscience.

On her recent videotape, so I'm told (I couldn't stand to watch it), Mrinalini Mata addresses the question of why Yogananda built a lovely temple on an unstable cliff, only to watch it slide into the sea. She papers over this embarrassing (and revealing) snafu by explaining that PY had "a human side." Fine, no one has a problem with humanity in a guru. The question persists, however: If an omniscient guru could be way off the mark in a matter as important as that (and the investment of time and money must have been considerable in building it), what else might he have been wrong about? How are we poor "stumbling eyeless of the world" to know? "Follow me blindly" (another Mrinalini quotation of the guru)? I don't think so! We are thus in the position of having to evaluate critically each aspect of the teachings, because if he could screw up a temple, he could sure as hell screw up other things, including the training of disciples--or the running of an organization.

WE must decide what is right and wrong, what to believe and what to disregard. And as Abelard said, there is only one way we can do that: by doubting and questioning. Of course, this is precisely what devotees are brainwashed not to do from the moment they set foot on "the path." From that moment, they are deprived of the one thing that could really hasten their personal and spiritual growth: rationality. No wonder things are as messed up as they are. It's a wonder they aren't worse. Deceit, manipulation, abuse, and authoritarian control flow naturally from this sort of psychological culture. Not to see it, to acknowledge it, is to remain a part of it. How could the effects be anything but deleterious, or, if the effects seem beneficial, then merely illusory? "Tuning in" with this "omniscient" authority from beyond the grave is no solution; it can only add another layer of confusion and self-deception, bordering at times on psychosis. In some devotees, I noticed that it certainly aggravated a proclivity towards narcissism. (Beware of anyone who claims to be "in tune" with the guru; mischief is just around the corner.)

I believe that gurus are inevitably fallible so that we will see this squarely and come to a conclusion that is crucial for our maturation: the truth, such as it is or may be, lies within US. It is not external to us, and it does not reside in some supernatural locale. When we meditate and gain a sense of peace and equilibrium, even valuable insights, these things don't come from outside, from somewhere, something, or someone else. They are ours, they are who and what we are. And if they're wrong or misleading, then we take the responsibility. We don't say, as PY certainly did about that temple, "God made me do it." As long as we remain in the childish posture of dependency on some imaginary guru (and Yogananda is absolutely and necessarily a product of your imagination, unless you actually knew him), we will never grow up. Ironically, we will never gain [S]elf-realization. I know this much for sure: whatever Daya Mata and the bad ladies are selling, I don't want it. The brew they were reared on is poison, and I ain't drinkin' it. I don't want to be like them, I don't share most of their values, and I don't agree with the way they deal with people. "By their fruits ye shall know them." Their fruits taste increasingly bitter. (Lest you think this disenchantment has sprung from shallow roots in SRF, I was until recently a devoted member who began the lessons in 1975. I served at several temples and am married to a devotee.)

In short, there is ample cause for skepticism here, and I'm so happy to see that there are others on this thread who share that view and have the fortitude to face the implications of such a stance vis-à-vis the "guru."

Edited by: Gitano no divino at: 7/15/02 2:14:19 pm
X Insider
Registered User
(6/19/02 7:36 pm)
Reply 		Re: Looking reality in the face
I was wondering whatever happened to you, Musicman/Gitano.
What a wonderful post. Thank you. You hit the nail on the head and said it much better than I have ever been able to.
The truth is a beautiful thing, very relaxing! I am almost inspired to meditate again, as soon as I can get the SRF shadows out of my brainwashed head.

Keep it coming, bro!

Gitano no divino
Registered User
(6/20/02 12:55 pm)
Reply 		Re: Looking reality in the face
Thanks, X Insider. I appreciate your support, because I know that my direct challenge to the guru doesn't go over very well with many Walrus readers and contributors. In fact, I've noticed that my posts seem to sometimes have the effect of killing a thread. No one wants to get near my radioactive criticism of the guru. I understand. Without Master, where are you on this path? Pathless? Maybe not.

For most of us, Yogananda is a mythological construct now (whether or not we're conscious of the fact), just like Jesus or Buddha. I have little use for the historical Yogananda, just as I have little use for the historical Jesus (and as many biblical scholars have noted, we don't really KNOW much about that historical Jesus; we know much less about Buddha, and almost nothing reliable about Krishna). He is now a mask of eternity (as Joseph Campbell put it), and he symbolizes something within us that is ultimately impersonal and ahistorical, and it might help to remember that. How we conceive of Yogananda says much more about US than it does about a particular Indian who lived from 1893 to 1952. This way, it doesn't really matter what happens with the organization or with l'affaire Erskine, because our conception, our imagined version, of Yogananda is the thing with which we have to do. As a previous thread had it, if you meet the Buddha (guru/Babaji/Padre Pio/whomever), kill him! Why not? Same for God, variously understood and described. That's the real meaning of Nietzsche’s assertion that God is dead. Our traditional conceptions of divinity are no longer potent. Didn't PY himself say he had killed off Yogananda a long time ago? I take that as an invitation to do the same.

God/guru/master/saintsandsagesofallreligions are all metaphors for our inner being. We really must avoid reifying them, externalizing and historicizing them, as that takes away the mystery dimension that is central to the whole experience of spirituality. I don't think anyone should be worshipped until they have been dead for at least a century and no people who knew them directly are still around. It's much easier then to remake the figure in your own image, and use it as a means of self-discovery--as long as you remain conscious of the fact that that's what you're doing and don't begin to mistake the metaphor for the reality (which is naturally where religion and religionists always go off the track). Hence, my iconoclastic assaults on Yogananda. I'm not attacking PY, really (what good would that do?), but the way people relate to him/it--and the futile attempts they make to build a firewall between their sacred idol and the implosion of the work he founded. They're all of a piece, and we have to find a way to make sense of the seeming contradictions. This is my way, and I simply put it out there as a possibility.

Of course, these are just my opinions, and they're hardly new ideas. But it's all I have left. Maybe it's more than enough. I'm banking on it. And who knows? Maybe I haven't fallen off the path but have just reached a bend in the road no one told me about or led me to expect. I don't see any other way to go, and even though I have no idea where this is leading, that's a good sign. If I did know where I was headed, I would already have been there, and I'd be going in circles. This may just be the next stage in my spiritual development. Then again, I may be hell bait destined for 31 guruless incarnations. Hmmm, I think I'll medicate myself with an ice cream cone. How's that? The guru didn't allow the disciples to eat ice cream in the afternoon? MY guru does!

Ciao :)

Edited by: Gitano no divino at: 7/15/02 2:16:35 pm
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