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astral7
Registered User
(1/11/03 10:09 pm)
 Re: for the five posts above
You quoted me, "But I don't know of any one in history who has made it without a guru-disciple relationship. And he does say that His way is through the SRF."

Greetings chela2020; /////////////
I am glad you asked me where the above was written, but was hoping you would ask me what it means[ a separate discussion]. I know we can all read – but don’t forget the Primary rule of Maya – “things are not as they appear to be!” First of all I never said that the world prophet Paramahansa Yogananda said all those words[ only the latter part. Although they are from my own studies and research, they do reflect much of what the Master said many, many, many, times.

If you read more of his writings as published by Self-Realization Fellowship, you too may find that this theme runs throughout them by Yogananda, and if you study the lives of mystics they are telling us the same thing. As for the few cases where it is difficult to trace a Gurus lineage – they even tell us that this is the way to go. The millions of persons who still feel the power of PY’s energy in most recent SRF publications are drawn by His presence in those works. Are they feeling something that others are missing? They are a testimonial to His Presence through SRF.]Those teachers who say otherwise know of no other way to raise their own statures…… I would say that since persons who are with Ananda and/or CSA whose teachers have claimed in writing that they are the true channels to God, or Py’s true successors, although their lives and attainments still being somewhat minuscule, are teachers of varying degrees.

From the latter part of your post you seem to have a different idea of what a Guru is than what I learned from my experiences. You say over a few lines that one can go from guru to guru as one grows, but then you say that there is only one true Guru for the devotee. I am not sure what purpose this serves – why would one keep telling a bunch of would-be teachers that you need them when one of the worlds greatest teacher-Gurus [or your personal True Guru] has promised to guide you and help you always no matter what. Yogananda did have a slight lapse of Loyalty once only and thought he would gain more from someone else, but soon woke out of that illusion. Yet here we have many teachers of very questionable character and status now starting/maintaining orgs to compete with the Real Masters work, when they haven’t gotten past the two lowest steps of the eightfold yoga path yet. I would not want to support such persons. If I really wanted to be rude could list all of their flaws [more than has so far even been published] and yes I have met many of them more than once. I was not impressed! But for those who think they are better off – what do I know?

Yes the SRF at all levels that I have experienced are very compassionate and understanding when dealing with devotees who go running after every new org and wannabee on the block. But try reading a little more deeply what the master says about this.If you want to say you know He made it all the way, and unlike all those others who want to appear what they are clearly not, you should read the couple of hundred places in masters writings where he says “for those who wish to follow this Kriya Path, [via his lineage] and be attuned through Them – SRF lessons and Self-Realization Fellowship is what I have given you” [paraphrased by me].

Now, if all you have read is old old copies or East west magazines, or that 1946 copy of the Autobiography that master kept changing and updating, you have only seen a fraction of the whole picture. Not a sound way to draw conclusions! Why would a devotee say that this Master is a Great Guru, and keep chasing after so many wanabees? Wanabees who only feed your disrespect for His organization in order to make themselves look better, or even claim innocence of their extensive poor records.

Your comparison of the non-Christian going to hell, is not in tune with may saying “that those who support Anti-Yogananda-SRF teachers are taking a hard route, and are on temporary course of listening to other devotees instead of to the Real Guru.” Please do not exaggerate or misrepresent my words. Even the SRF does not say they are the only path. It is Yogananda who says, “If you love me - love my dog too.” Pp…Yes, the Master [and SRF] do say to others that they may still be with another church, but they do not say – “Support a group that is anti -Yogananda - SRF.” I quote you: "According to the Hindu belief, the tie between the guru and his initiated disciple cannot be broken, either in this world or on any future plane of existence, until the disciple realizes the Atman within himself and is thus set free. Meanwhile, the disciple may neglect, reject, or even betray the guru, but the guru cannot disown him. In such cases, the guru must continue to guide the disciple mentally, from a distance, and protect him through prayer." This is a great quote – those who like it should return that love/loyalty by listening to what PY says, not what those who have left and compete against His work say.

Yes, love and loyalty are very interdependent here. Attunement is suffocated without them. If you follow a lesser disciple – it is your right – but don’t confuse everyone by saying you follow PY too, “you cannot serve two masters” especially 2 who do not teach the same thing- as is the case out there in some cases.“By their fruits you shall Know them” . Many of those who have left may be channels for something – but I doubt it is of the Masters of this lineage. Not according to PY and those who remained loyal to him anyhow. And some the records of some these guys with their own little kingdoms is so bad that yes, one can positively say this it is for sure they are not a channel for Paramahansa Yogananda. Clear vision is not seen through smoke covered glasses. Maybe we should keep in mind that there are all kinds of teachers out there, just because they may claim that they rubbed shoulders with so-and-so [some great True Guru.] That doesn’t necessarily make them holy, or saintly or anything. Especially if the record of their last 40 years is otherwise.

If those persons did not understand that Masters teachings and left his work because they wanted to show the world the “better way” of their own organizations – they often passed on false knowledge and an even worse examples as we have seen in a bunch of them. They were not yet ready to teach others, and light years away from being anyone’s “guru”. So many have taken them to courts, for sexual abuse, theft of copyright, theft of physical property, slander, etc. and won! Plus all of the other stuff that never even got to court – very costly as we all know. The Guru may still love them too, but they have little of no functioning attunement as a representative of that guru with the attitudes that promote. How can they be channels after saying “we are ready to teach others now” when the are not even passed the first grade yet? Being able to recognize this is a very serious test for all devotees. Although it is sometimes part of a Gurus work to teach, it is a rare teacher who is ever a True Guru. “Guru” does not simply translate as a teacher. It means one who is God-Realized and one with reality.I really think that deeply rereading the Autobiography will clarify this better than I can.

You quoted me>>, "You will get the best results from Self-realization Fellowship." I was saying here that Paramahansa Yogananda said this – not I. He repeats this idea and words in about 150 different places throughout his writings. And if you are not sure about that – someone has been keeping you in the dark.I have found it in over 150 quotes and I hardly know his work yet. Just imagine how long this list will be after a few more years of research and meditation.It is easy to miss thee things [how often we say “where is that?] Did you notice that the Bhagavad-Gita explains the second kriya in detail? eg. How often do Christians quote-“I am the way the truth and the life, and no one comes to the father except through me.” Fully out of context!!Three verses later JC tells us, “It is not I who am saying these things but the father who dwells within me.” Now that takes away all the exclusiveness….and gives an entirely different meaning. Some great scholars were shocked when I showed them that simple connection. Some have even told me “that is not even written in the bible – till we looked it up together. People do the same “no can see thing” with Yogananda’s works, and on the basis of this rose colored glasses thing don’t think that he is a good enough teacher for them. He is that and far more! Different master’s excel at different things - Paramahansa Yogananda excelled at teaching – that is one of the reasons why He was chosen to share the Sanatana Dharma with Kriya with the modern world.It has been my personal experience that Yogananda does still work through the Self-Realization Fellowship. How do you think we were freed of a failed VP before he could become leader or remain longer to really drag SRF into the mud. No, I am sad that another org had to live & learn with him. PY said “I never say that I never make mistakes.” But the way SRF corrects these things in time I feel will show masters hand.

Or have you seen that letter that Yogananda wrote to Mr Couron of Mexico City, stating that divine mother tells him all the work must be centered under the SRF. Well, Mr Couron, although perhaps suggesting that maybe Mexico City should have a major SRF center for Latin America, did not do so.He had the loyalty/love and the humility to know that the master may still know far more than even the advanced disciple. This is Love & loyalty. So many that knew PY have told us of the endless no of times from their experiences that the master “always knew the better way.” Or held back on a good idea because the timing was not right. Yet their were other guys say “we know better that Him.”

Yet strangely, until we have learned to listen and read we tend to chase our fantasies. Many of us think, “since I am not getting any where here, or I can’t find what I need here [because I can’t see it or haven’t made the effort]- I will follow an anyone guru, or even a good teacher. It’s true that in most relationships we always blame the other party for our own shortcomings. This part of human nature has got to go. As long as we are still doing and rationalizing the above idea, we really have no idea where we are going.

So many people also carry this flaw into the Guru-disciple relationship. Since they think [real or imagined[ that the fault is in the teachings and/or the organization, they end up choosing a spiritually dead teacher in the body. Which does not begin to compare with being patiently loyal to a God-realized Guru who is out of body – but omni-present and God-Realized. There is reallyno comparison! Patience, humility & understanding is what saves the day.

Sharing & listening with respect ..Astral7

Edited by: astral7 at: 1/13/03 8:51:16 am
astral7
Registered User
(1/11/03 10:11 pm)
 Re: for the five posts above
I have found the greatest healing to be following His instructions and remaining loyal to His SRF church. Last of all – I fully agree that no matter what we follow or work with – we are all on the path to God- “where else can we be?”

Astral 7....

chela2020
Registered User
(1/12/03 3:03 am)
 Re: for the five posts above
astral7,

That first quote that I made only had emphasis on the words, "His way is through the SRF." I don't believe that. Yes, the guru/discipleship is the easy way, but I am talking about the latter part of the sentence. He may have meant that the way is through Self-realization" but never through one organization. He is with everyone of his devotees no matter what organization they are in.

One must always remember that even Yogananda said that there was only one guru--God.

While I disagree with what you have written, I admire your loyalty to Yogananda.

Edited by: chela2020 at: 1/12/03 3:14:01 am
astral7
Registered User
(1/12/03 12:55 pm)
 Re: for the five posts above
Sorry chela2020;

I edited my post, but did actually answer your question indirectly, farther down.

If you wish I would post about 10 of those quotes I'll gladly do so - they all say the same thing.

yes - coming down to the bottom line - that paragraph where JC is quoted also says - God is the only Guru also.

But I feel since my communication with Reality is not yet very clear, we can work through one who has that mastered.
The nature of a true gurus help is that from day one, they groom you to eventually become fully independent of the need of any intermediary. In an actual sense, if that Guru is really one with God - He/She is God. That is not even an intermediary. They are rare and I see them doing their greatest work without the body.

REgards Astral7

chela2020
Registered User
(1/12/03 3:09 pm)
 Re: for the five posts above
astral7,

That is very true, a guru is very helpful on the path to God. They make it easier, take on karma and all kinds of neat stuff like that.

astral7
Registered User
(1/12/03 4:27 pm)
 Re: for the five posts above
I think one sad thing that has happened, mainly due to the media, is the misuse and cheapening of the term Guru.
to mean only one who is - or thinks he is an expert in something or other. Teachers are a dime a dozen - so this one aspect of a Gurus work was emphazed by western media to demean the terms real meaning. Or also done through ignorance.

I doubt if one who has not reached the stage of Samadhi should be considered as a Guru. Maybe some kind of teacher,
as in some level of in some specialization, but a Guru is in a special class by himself, in a state of human/divine consciousness that few reach in this world.
If one is not ready to work with a Guru, nothing wrong with that. and that option is always open to one in the future of course.
Regards Astral7

GregsBrother
Registered User
(1/12/03 10:32 pm)
 Re: for the five posts above
Self proclaimed gurus, and those declared by followers to be gurus, have done the most damage to the term "Guru".

Blaming the media is a tactic used by many different groups. None of which I respect. They resent the mirror that shows their own actions, without the deceptive "spin" they need attached to their actions to make them legitimate.

As Yoganada taught, we should all be independant truth seekers. God will give us what we need. If we don't believe that, then we dont believe that God belongs to US, and is FULLY within us, as Jesus and Yogananda and others taught.

Beware those who seek to foster your dependance on them and their organizations.

What is the greatest truth of Jesus? Of Yogananda?

In my mind, it is that we can have our own personal relationship with God, without the necessity of any organization or intermediary.

Yes, we can get help along the way, but in the end ITs BETWEEN YOU AND GOD.


Sadly, Christianity and so many other organizations over the years have found it necessary to make themselves seem as important as God.

They want us to think WE CANT FIND GOD WITHOUT THEM.

Or that they have the "fast track" to God.

Decide for yourself if that is the LIBERATING message of the great sages; of Jesus, and Yogananda, and others.

I thank God that the answer is obvious to me.

For me there is no "fast track" like there is no easy way to quit smoking, lose weight , or be instantly rich.

Sorry folks but you will have to go through the whole ordeal, there is no short cut.


We all need to get over thinking we can save a few lifetimes by sucking up to direct disciples, and organizations, and just live the best way you can.

There is nothing/nobody between you and God.








chela2020
Registered User
(1/13/03 5:52 am)
 Re: for the five posts above
I hope people know that I was kidding in the above posting about gurus taking on karma and all kinds of neat stuff like that. I just didn't know how to respond to astral's posting at the time.

The truth of the matter is: What difference does it make how long it takes you to become liberated? Who cares if there is an airplane route to God or not? Isn't it really about your relationship to God and not some reward in heaven or in the Absolute? Isn't it enough to just love God and to know that he/she is with you? I really don't care how long it takes me to get there or even if I get there, because I just want to learn to love God more as well as my fellow man. And you are right Gregsbrother, there is no fast track to God. It doesn't matter what guru you choose or even if you have a guru; you will still get their on your own time and with the grace of God if that is your goal.

redpurusha
Registered User
(1/13/03 7:02 am)
 Re: for the five posts above
According to Yogananda and the teachings, an "independent truth-seeker" without the help of a true guru, will have little or no chance: "Salvation comes from 50% God's grace, 25% Gurus help, and 25% disciples effort." -PY

Perhaps, more clearly, you guys mean to say that you don't need the help of a particular organization, and are seeking God through your own understanding and application of Master's teachings.

Astral7, I read your long post and you make some good observations, but the benefits I get from associating with a few societies outside SRF, are not another guru, but a wider, often clearer dissemation of Yogananda's teachings -helping me more understand and practice the guru's message. Sometimes, I get the teachings that I cannot recieve from "Mother Center." For example, I'm about to order the "Second Coming" from Amrita foundation, I am looking forward to reading Master's more detailed interpretation of Christ. What many people here are doing, when looking for sources outside of SRF, is not looking for a new guru, but to help them know the guru they already have. There are others with different attitudes as well, but generally speaking, most everyone here is doing their best to be loyal to P. Yogananda, which sometimes translates to bypassing SRF because of differences in the way they handle his teachings, or not handling.

You are making a case that people are looking for another guru, but most here are attracted to PY and recognize him for his greatness, they are dissapointed in how SRF has handled his message.

From what I have seen, SRF has been frozen in time, in 1952, in some cases even retrograde, the work was probably much more a force and influence in the world back then then it is now, it is unfortunate because Yogananda brings so much wealth of wisdom and light to the world, but I know firsthand that people around the world don't have a chance to even to read his autobiography in their native language. It is like, the way the teachings have been given by SRF, the general population, is not ready or worthy to recieve them still, only those who knew Master in the body. This is not to say I am against SRF, just that I am pro-Yoganadanda and would like his message to light the world even more so. As an individual the best way to do that is lift up your own life first, but a society like SRF hase responsibility to get the work OUT in its original format, not hoard it for themselves only, or distort it.

I am not speaking from a black/white perspective, pro-SRF or anti-SRF, an all or nothing mentality, but see a negative handling of the teacings to some degree.

GregsBrother
Registered User
(1/13/03 8:55 am)
 Exclusivity
I know that quote about the percentages, God guru etc.


However.

I simply refuse to believe that Yogananda would say "You dont have a chance."

Jesus said no one comes to the Father except through him. And yet SRF people have found a way to make that quote more "inlcusive " than it seems on first reading.

So why are SRF people now interpeting Yoganada quotes the way fundementalist Christians interpet Jesus quotes?

Its all about exclusivity now, apparently.


I guess SRF will have to tear down the Lake Shrine now. It acknowledges other religions as legitimate paths. UH OH!

Since nobody can take Kriya without taking a vow to be totally dedicated to SRF, and SRF tells us not to read other teachings (like those of the religions acknowledged at the Lake Shrine), then the Lake Shrine is now inconsistent with current SRF doctrine.

Many people were attracted to SF because it wasnt "exclusive" like fundementalist christianity.

But now SRF is teaching that without them, and their path, we DONT HAVE A CHANCE?

What happened to the spirit of God communion that founded the Lake Shrine?

SRF should put up a disclaimer "dont try to follow these other religions mentioned here at the lake shrine. Yogananda was kidding when he said you could stay in your religion and follow his teachings also."


Please examine this "exclusivity" you SRF people. See how it is at odds with so many things Yogananda emphasized in his early years?

It went from "God is for everyone, anywhere, who builds an altar of devotion in his heart."

To "without SRF, you dont have a chance".

Do I really have to argue against this obvious distortion of the teachings that was done to perpetuate an organization?

You pick your quotes, and I pick mine. I prefer the liberating messages; others apparently want SRF to be like the Catholic or Mormon churches are.

Go ahead and make SRF into an exclusive all or nothing, salvation or "7 lifetimes of Hell" religion if you thats what you want.

But then you have something no better than the fundementalist Christianity that Yogananda so soundly refuted when he first came here to the US.

Imagine Yoganada telling someone "You dont have a chance without me".

If that was his real message, it never would have spread out of Boston.


astral7
Registered User
(1/13/03 10:05 am)
 Re: Exclusivity
What do we know about Self-Realization Fellowship?

Well Lets see?

They have had fantastic growth since 1952 – they must be doing many things right!

They teach that one can find Self-Realization [God-realization] through any true path,
and as the Good Lady Daya Mata often says, SRF believes that splinter groups that
promote Yogananda’s work also have a right to exist.

So there is no need to tear down the Lake Shrine as it and Self-Realization Fellowship as they
believe in and promote Pluralism – Many paths to reach God.
This shows up in all they do and say.

They do qualify this with the well proven historical fact that those who have a
personal spiritual relationship with and God-realized being are on the best track.
The examples in SRF lineage up to the present are a powerful testimony to this.
When Anandamoy or other Self-Realization Fellowship monastics speak at major world
Ecumenical spiritual gatherings, they are appraised so highly because of their inclusiveness and spiritual consciousness.

If you wish to follow someone else and call them guru – you may not even know what a guru is yet, but to each his own. Or if you wish to have no guru and consider and feel you need no teacher at all– that is everyone’s right.
“All I know is that when I finally decided to work with a piano teacher, it made all the difference in
the world to my progress” LM. Can you imagine how much more critical this is in the Spiritual with all
its unknowns and bypaths.

Re quote talked about in above posts ; >>> when one shows a variation in the possible interpretation
of one of JC’s comments from TNT, this is the opposite of fundamentalism.
Remember – it is the fundamentalist who is saying there is only one interpretation [the literal or out of context one] and there is only one way “our way.”
This is a crude as saying there is only one way to from LA to NY. Or one way to do most things for that matter.

Another meaning to JC’s comment that he was the only way, is connected to the M/D relationship.
His disciples/followers etc who have made that spiritual connection with him by their lifetimes of whatever experiences, may now be vibrationally set up in consciousness so that that is the only way for them. Likewise for the disciples of any True Guru.

The only one that is saying that by doing it any one way leads to hell is you.

Regards Astral7

GregsBrother
Registered User
(1/13/03 12:15 pm)
 Re: Exclusivity
"The only one that is saying that by doing it any one way leads to hell is you. "

Astral7

In SRF, "hell" is the 7 incarnations of suffering that SRF says devotees will suffer if they leave the path. This is what they tell monks who leave. Sorry I didnt make that clear.



astral7
Registered User
(1/13/03 1:55 pm)
 Re: Exclusivity
Wandering around for 7 incarnations without a guru is not the same as going to hell. [ or For eternity as the exclusuvists say]. I doubt if life is so cruel for any mistakes.

Actually, I believe Yogananda's words on this are something like:
"the devotee who wanders away from the gurus help may have to wait many incarnations before a similar opportunity arises again." It may be in "Journey to Self-Realization"

Regards Astral7

Edited by: astral7 at: 1/13/03 5:00:47 pm
jaijaijai
Registered User
(1/13/03 3:09 pm)
 Re: Exclusivity
Life may be cruel, but the Guru isn't. Here is what the Guru says in one of his Second Coming of Christ commentaries (and these are his exact words):

[quote]All souls who want salvation must recognize the Guru messenger of God sent to them in response to their prayers. If they don’t, they won’t find salvation by themselves in that life or in the astral world after death. But when they are reborn again, if they pray for a Guru and continue to meditate, God will send them a Guru messenger again for their redemption.[/quote]

-Paramhansa Yogananda
Second Coming of Christ

Edited by: jaijaijai at: 1/13/03 3:47:23 pm
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