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ranger20
Registered User
(1/9/04 10:11 am)
Reply 		Re: What is a Cult?
Chela2020,

I'm very sorry to hear of the recent loss of your mother and your dog. Take care of yourself.

The question in question is whether the sentiments I quoted from the Center Dept. bulletins (some with implied, some with explicit attribution to Yogananda) accurately reflected things Yogananda said, or were interpretations, extrapolations or actual distortions by various monastics.

At the heart of it is the nature of the Deity that Yogananda points to. Is it a God who would say (under any circumstance) "What is wrong with you....Now you shall have to wait long, and prove yourself, before I shall respond again."

Late last night I was sitting outside, bundled against the chill, pondering this question, and the answer was as crisp as the air. I do not believe Yogananda would subscribe to this sort of a God, though I believe Bro. Ramanda might.

Somewhere in the writings, the phrase used to describe negative consequences is if one "spurns" the guru. That sounds like a kind of violent rejection of the guru, and maybe spiritual effort in general, something which would carry it's own set of consequences in a "naturalistic" rather than a "punitive" manner. I do not believe this applies to the typical poster here, who is motivated by heart and sincerity. Even if the rejection of SRF and/or Yogananda has it's violent phase, it's a comprehensible response to the anger that can result from the sense of hurt and betrayal that a glance behind the curtain can bring.

I'd rather trust the Yogananda who dismissed Mukti Mata's list of her flaws, by telling her "just love God." I'd rather trust the God of the Prodigal Son story.

Interesting that the latter phrase is used in various places in the SRF writings in an accusatory manner, ie, "you are a prodigal." They use the word a fair amount, without mentioning the point of the story - that the son's hesitant turn toward the Father is met by the Father joyously running down the road to meet him.



chela2020
Registered User
(1/9/04 10:57 am)
Reply 		Re: What is a Cult?
Ranger20,

Thank you for your first comment.

I remember reading somewhere on this board over a year ago, that when Yogananda said it would take many lifetimes to return to God or the path, if you leave the guru, that Yogananda was really talking about a certain devotee that he knew who would take several lifetimes to return to God or him. I don't believe that God would say those things, nor would Yogananda make such a blanket statement. I asked this very same question to someone who knows the scriptures, and he said that nowhere is it written that you will have to wait many lifetimes before returning to God if you denounce the guru or leave an organization. But if you leave for melicious reasons, then there are repercussions. If a person is not happy with either the organization or the guru, it is okay to leave and find another organization and/or guru. I remember reading of one case where the disciple went to another guru, saying, I want you to initiate me because the mantra that my guru gave to me doesn't work. He was then initiated. Anyway, if you read the long article that I posted under What Is A True Guru? Under Core Issues, you will see that Hindus believe that you can leave your guru. Perhaps, out of loving a guru unconditionally, a devotee will stay no matter what his guru does, but not everyone has the ability to do that, and so they should not be judged. And perhaps you are not questioning Yogananda as much as you are the organization, and if so, then just remember that even Yogananda said that you can go to the temple or church of your choice after being initiated. It is in one of the old magazines.

Maybe it isn't just Br. Ramananda who subscribes to it, but maybe it is just MC's intrepretation of Yogananda's words, just like they did to the Bible. It was not he who told these same things to me, but nuns at MC. The one thing that Daya Mata wrote to me when I questioned SRF and was thinking of leaving was: "Follow your heart." I did; I left.

Remember always, THE GURU IS GOD. THE GURU IS YOU. God never rejects anyone no matter what they do. Even when I came to vedanta teachings, I had this same fear of what you are saying, and I was told immediately that God is the Guru, and that the moment you think of God, the moment you return to God, He is there. Just like the Prodigal Son.

I remember I used to ask devotees about certain original writings I had of Yogananda's, and they would tell me that I was going to have to wait to return many lifetimes, and I thought, My this smacks of the Christianity that they were against, that is, the treats that Christians make by telling us we are going to hell. It is just a manipulative threat made by a very fearful and controlling organization who doesn't wish to lose devottes, i.e. support.

I found something on this website that may help you:

www.purebhakti.com/lectur...215a.shtml

I asked the following question from a person of a different order, not sure who his guru is, but he is a very wise Hindu that knows the scriptures:

Does it take lifetimes to return to a personal relationship with one's Guru after leaving him or her?"

He wrote: "Only Guru knows that and Guru, if chela is open and humble enough in his/her heart and actions, can make future lifetimes disappear in a split second. I've personally witnessed this."

I hope this has helped. Didn't mean to rattle on and on.






Edited by: chela2020 at: 1/10/04 7:35 am
SayItIsntSo
Registered User
(1/9/04 2:57 pm)
Reply 		Re: What is a Cult?
Chela, sorry about your loss.

Edited by: SayItIsntSo at: 2/11/04 4:46 pm
etzchaim
Registered User
(1/9/04 4:07 pm)
Reply 		Re: What is a Cult?
"Hours of meditation, where you're not supposed move, is a form of torture! Don't forget you're not suppose to
eat first."

Hours? Surely you jest!

Is this recommended for most people?

Every spiritual teacher I've learned from has said to meditate for short periods of time, daily, at the same time and same place, if possible. Long periods are discouraged because the idea is to build up a positive feeling for doing it, with no pressure and no resentment. It's supposed to be something we want to do, something we're excited about doing, not a chore. If you have established a regular pattern of really enjoying your short meditation, and you want to do more, meditate more, but don't force it.

Also, it's vitally important to have a healthy ego to start with. Attempting to kill the ego is only going to wound a person. That is toxic, indeed. The self is the means by which the higher Self manifests, it needs to be healthy and able to individuate, that's how we participate in life.

It's hearing things like this that cause me to say, 'Well, no wonder people aren't making progress and hurting each other, they're walking around wounded, hating themselves and enslaved to their sadhana'.

Edited by: etzchaim at: 1/9/04 4:18 pm
chela2020
Registered User
(1/9/04 4:27 pm)
Reply 		Re: What is a Cult?
SayItIsn'tSo,

Thanks for the comment. Sorry about your loss too.

Everything you said is so true. I think after putting up with abusive parents all our life, we learn to not want to be around it. I grew up with a verbally abusive mother, and so I mourn my dog who never abused me.

I don't understand the idea of "kill the ego." You can't kill the ego as long as you are on earth. All gurus have egos, some bigger than others.

I used to allow others to say what they wanted to me, but I learned not to be around those people, of course, it is hard to get away from it on Walrus, but most people on Walrus are kind. I think a book that you would really like is "The Four Agreements." I also learned since leaving SRF that it is okay to stand up for yourself when someone is verbally abusing you. Were those comments in quotes all from Healing Toxic Shame? Very perceptive.

Eztchaim:

Yes, hours of meditaton. After a year of Hong Sau you get Kriya, and I was doing 3 hours in the morning and evening doing that and Kriya, then after another Kriya, the hours were going to add up. I gave up. It takes a long time to do the Kriyas, especially with the increases. I prefer doing just a mantra now, and I sit as long as I am happy sitting, which varies from day to day, and maybe it shouldn't vary, but that is life.

ranger20
Registered User
(1/9/04 4:43 pm)
Reply 		Re: What is a Cult?
SayItIsntSo:

I based many life decisions based on what I was taught in the teachings and temples: Whatever I wanted wasn't important.

This is more subtle than the "no salvation outside true church" theme, but is also very damaging. I refer to it, (after the old Firesign Theater album of the same name) as "the Everything you Know is Wrong syndrome."

I have allowed it to estrange me, to some degree, from my own heart, my own instincts, my own deep nature, so that finding the walrus was a new chapter in an ongoing project of archeology into this deeper nature. It had never entirely ceased, as I hadn't stopped exploring and thinking and being as this nature seemed to demand - I just felt a kind of constant low degree guilt over it.

The most harmful area for me was in the area of vocation. I made a wrong turn, and didn't rectify it in a timely manner. I kept thinking "wrong turn" is an ego judgement, and I should be praying "Where Thou has placed me, there Thou must come" and "Don't change my circumstances, change me."

While such an effort does bring growth, I find what I really like is the good old Serenity prayer: "God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference."

Again, reading your words brings to mind the question, how did I stay hypnotized so long?

I once had a guy working for me who didn't trust his own decision making process at all. He would come to me with the smallest question. Drove me nuts! Believe me, when he started to make baby steps toward independant thinking, I was thrilled. When he would hesitantly say, "Well, I suppose it might be okay if we..." I'd get up and shake his hand, and congratulate him heartily. I imagine God is also a little bit delighted when we start to exercise the heart and imagination and brains we were given!

Edited by: ranger20 at: 1/9/04 4:44 pm
etzchaim
Registered User
(1/10/04 7:41 am)
Reply 		Re: What is a Cult?
On work days, I meditate about 45 minutes in the morning and do about a half hour of Hatha Yoga. My meditation includes Hong Sau, Kriya and basic empty-mind meditation. If I'm up early (this usually has to do with my health, I have a chronic illness I'm gradually getting over), I have time to do a Hebrew chant or meditation and I can study the Prophets, a Kabbalah text or Carl Jung, etc., who I've decided was a great Mystic in a previous life! Learning is part of my sadhana (avodah, in Hebrew, is the same thing) but I don't sweat it if I can't get it in and if I skip something, it's not the end of the world. Kriyananda actually recommends skipping things periodically to get a feel for the difference in how you feel. It's an interesting exercise. There are days when my meditation period is shorter and days when it is longer, depending on many variables and there is no reason in the world to stress out over it!

On days that I have time and feel like I want to do more, I can spend the whole day just devoted to meditation, Hatha, prayer and study. I often paint in between, as my art work is very much an active meditative process. Those are very luxurious days and don't happen much. An older disciple at my temple refers to his retirement (which hasn't happened yet) as when he becomes a 'professional Yogi'. This is very much in line with the traditional stages of life in Indian tradition and I think they have stood the test of time because they are WISE! Both Lahiri Mahasya and Sri Yukteswar followed these stages.

Kriya is a householder path. SRF, as people have discussed often here, has lost sight of this, and, in my opinion, Yogananda's renunciate path has lead to this. I don't think he had the same antipathy or, shall we say, spiritual ego, to put the householder path on the level that SRF does today, but I can certainly see how his own inclination has lead to the current SRF twisting of the tradition. I still crack up over the idea of the 'rock star Swamis', even though it is very sad that this is happening.

The householder path is the higher path.

SayItIsntSo
Registered User
(1/10/04 5:52 pm)
Reply 		Re: What is a Cult?
I find this discussion here very invigorating. Everyone (now) seems very nice and willing to talk about their experiences.

Edited by: SayItIsntSo at: 2/11/04 4:46 pm
chela2020
Registered User
(1/10/04 6:26 pm)
Reply 		Re: What is a Cult?
SayItIsn'tSo,

You post just about brought tears to my eyes. Here is someone who is wonderful (you), who just wants to serve the guru, and everytime you turn around Wam.

I had a few knocks myself when I served. During Temple Sitting I was told that I should not have partly closed the door. It was winter, and they didn't heat the place, and I was cold and sitting by a little heater that only heated half my body. I sat there thinking of the millions that they spent in trials against Walters, but they had no money for heat. I didn't matter; their bills did.

I had Ebstein Barr when I was Temple Sitting. I was basically too tired to do other work. One day the head of the volunteer committe came in and saw that my eyes were closed. I was just resting them. I was scolded and told that we could not meditate while Temple Sitting. I quit soon after, and she used to beg me to come back to Temple Sit. Seems like they were having a rough time finding volunteers. By the time I felt better physcially I was doing Tea Time instead.

I went up to the meditaton gardens once. I had back pain and wanted to meditate, so I laid down on one of their cold cement benches since I couldn't sit up long. A guard walked up to me and said, "You can't lie down here." I said something like, "Then I will leave." I was becoming rebellious just before leaving. He followed me down the steps and out the gate, and the looks from other devotees were really upsetting to me. I felt like they thought I had done something wrong.

After joining Tea Time at Encinitas Temple. My friend and I were making cookies each week for the devotees. We were trying to get the organization some "fellowship." Seemed like a novel idea. The minister said that the cookies had to be made with honey. Had to be healthy, as if honey were that much more healthier. We began making chocolate chip cookies, but the chips and crumbs got on the asphalt outside the temple and that upset other devotees who had to clean. So powdered sugar, crumbly cookies, and chips were out. One day I asked the minister if I could make cookies with sucanat since it was as healthy as honey. He asked why. I said because honey and chocolate taste strange together. He walked away without replying. Then I became rebellious (lol). I made my own cookies with sucanant and/or plain old-fashioned unhealthy sugar. I just didn't give him any. My partner would scold me, but I didn't care. My cookies were the first to go.

One time I asked why they had a rope between the altar and the chairs. It was because hippies used to come there and leave and/or take flowers. My, how horrible. At least, since they realized we had no hippies around, they took off the rope.

Last time I went to SRF I took their gold pendant to the spot where the temple fell over the ocean. There was a chained link fence keeping me from getting very close, so I looked around to see if anyone was watching, and I stepped over that forbidden chain linked fence and threw the pendant over the cliff. It was wonderous watching it glitter in the sun. It disappeared and probably landed on the cliffs below until the ocean waves took it out to sea.

I still like the people at SRF. They are just trying to be good SRFers as prescribed by MC.











Edited by: chela2020 at: 1/12/04 4:12 am
SayItIsntSo
Registered User
(1/10/04 7:21 pm)
Reply 		Re: What is a Cult?
We really took our licks? eh?

War wounds.

Even after being gone for four years I still get the willies remembering all this junk. Hope it helps someone!

chela2020
Registered User
(1/11/04 8:06 am)
Reply 		Re: What is a Cult?
SayItIsn'tSo,

I am sure it has helped someone. It even helped me.

You have been gone just as many years as I.

SayItIsntSo
Registered User
(1/11/04 11:06 am)
Reply 		Re: What is a Cult?

The teachings are about going within--but I believe all this self introspecting can be dangerous. When introspecting how many of us are giving ourselves kudos.

Edited by: SayItIsntSo at: 2/11/04 4:45 pm
chela2020
Registered User
(1/11/04 4:05 pm)
Reply 		Re: What is a Cult?
SayItIsn'tSo,

Thirty years is a long time to have been in SRF, and that must have been hard to leave. I was with the Jehovah's Witnesses for 5 years, and I know how much of hold they had on me. After all the shunning from the Jehovah's Witnesses, I was not able to become too attached to the people at SRF, but then they didn't let you since they were not friendly. It was much easier to leave SRF. I must have been in SRF for 1 1/2 years before hearing things I felt were wrong to be happening in SRF. I left, came back, and a year later I was gone. But still, it has been hard. I did my best to make sure that I wasn't getting into another cult, and I thought I had done a good job. Little did I know, but then SRF is not really a cult, just has some cult-like thinking that, if given time, could cause it to become a cult someday.

Like you, I have been big on deleting messages. I felt guilty saying anything negative about SRF, so all those things were deleted. Then I became upset over things I heard about Yogananda, and kept deleting those things. Now I just don't say anything about Yogananda, after just deleting what I had said. But I feel okay now about talking about SRF.

It is cruel to tell someone to just move on. I have seen that written on this board. Everyone hangs onto things differently. Some can move on right away, others maybe a year, and then others hang on much longer. I hand on a long time. It took me 20 years to get over the Jehovah's Witnesses, and yet I still feel some hurt for that experience, but not much.
When I joined SRF I asked them if they kicked people out like the JWs did, and they said No. Then I hear that a monk or nun after leaving can't return to the temple, or are at least discouraged from doing so, and I thought, well, there is no difference than how the JWs treat people. Even some SRF members shunned me when I told them that I left. But being used to being shunned, as I still am by the JWs, it didn't bother me so much.

I often asked myself why, when I meet people and tell them that I left SRF, they tell me that they went to a few meetings, but the people were not friendly, so they left and went elsewhere, and I ask myself why I hadn't done just that, but by then I was tied to the guru. I stayed because of Yogananda, otherwise, I would have left the first day I came to a meeting and found the people to not be friendly.

So I understand your deleting. Maybe this time neither of us will delete, but I can't count on that for myself. It is guilt. SRF taught us so well to not say anything negative.





Edited by: chela2020 at: 1/12/04 4:14 am
etzchaim
Registered User
(1/11/04 4:45 pm)
Reply 		Re: What is a Cult?
"It is cruel to tell someone to just move on. I have seen that written on this board. Everyone hangs onto things
differently. Some can move on right away, others maybe a year, and then others hang on much longer. I hand
on a long time."

That's very true, and since I actually said this to you a few times, I apologize.

I let go of things fairly easily, though it sometimes comes back to haunt me and I'm actually finding myself worrying about burning too many bridges. If we don't have the same type of inner experience to things as someone else, we really can't relate to how that person is feeling. It's discussions like this that help us learn about other ways of being. Perhaps we've all lived too much in symbolic (or actual?) caves and really need to interact more so we can learn about each other!

SayItIsntSo
Registered User
(1/11/04 4:54 pm)
Reply 		Re: What is a Cult?
Chela--

(hug).

I never knew about shunning in SRF until reading about it here and after I left-- nary a word heard since.

It wasn't hard, hard to leave...it was a process of leaving. I didn't even realize I was leaving at first.

As far as PY. I never heard rumors about him until I got on Walrus. I think most of those stories broke after I left in '99. I'm not sure those stories would change my opinion of PY. I felt great love for him. Now, I don't know what I feel. Ambiguous?

Oh, well...



Edited by: SayItIsntSo at: 2/10/04 4:34 pm
chela2020
Registered User
(1/11/04 5:48 pm)
Reply 		Re: What is a Cult?
SayItIsn'tSo,

Here's a hug for you too.

I had a friend in SRF who was there for 20 years, and then she began reading books from another group, began trying their technique of questioning, and she said after all these years she was able to finally silence her mind, and she began feeling a Presence. When she told me this tears of joy filled her eyes. She also said that all her friend of 20 years quit talking to her, and she didn't understand why they just couldn't be happy for her--wasn't it just about finding God?

People who shun fear to listen to what you have to say because you could change your minds, but if you are sure of your beliefs, of even where you are, no one can change your mind.

I think you were a very good devotee. Like you, I have a rebellious streak, too, and once in a while it comes out. That doesn't make you bad, although some people will think otherwise, yet have you ever noticed that it is usually those who want to control you that think this way.

It is very hard when you lose your guru and your friends. I can relate. When I was asked to leave the Jehovah's Witnesses, I believed I lost God, and I lost them. They were like a family to me. Plus, they taught you that people outside the organization were "wicked" and "wolves." So I felt I had been thrown to the wolves. Then I met and made friends and found out that there were loving people outside of the organization who would accept you for who you were and didn't care what you believed. Some of those people are still my friends and some are now into meditating.

I am thinking, again, of deleting much but leaving some things on the board. This board has degenerated too much for me. AT least this thread has remained kind. I will see if I can refrain from deleting my posts here. If you want to e-mail me, just enable your ezboard e-mail long enough to give me an e-mail address to write to you, then just disenable it again. You can always just make up a new screename for us to correspond, that is, if you desire to correspond.

I find it interesting how I left SRF because of how they treated people, and then I come here and people are being treated worse on this board than they were in SRF. Maybe it is a case of the abused becoming the abusers. For this reason, I have to leave this board.





Edited by: chela2020 at: 1/12/04 7:59 am
SsSsSnake
Registered User
(1/12/04 8:14 am)
Reply 		Re: What is a Cult?
so Eckart Tolle did in ashort time what SRF coulnt in 20 yrs says something doesnt it?

ranger20
Registered User
(1/12/04 8:37 am)
Reply 		Re: What is a Cult?
Quote:
I remember reading somewhere on this board over a year ago, that when Yogananda said it would take many lifetimes to return to God or the path, if you leave the guru, that Yogananda was really talking about a certain devotee that he knew who would take several lifetimes to return to God or him. I don't believe that God would say those things, nor would Yogananda make such a blanket statement.


It has been a long time since I read Kriyananda's autobiography, but I remember such a story there. Yogananda made the comment to Kriyananda regarding a single devotee who had left. There are probably other similar stories.

ranger20
Registered User
(1/12/04 9:12 am)
Reply 		Re: What is a Cult?
Thanks to everyone for their accounts of serving. Over the years my satisfaction in doing so was always in inverse proportion to the influence of the Center Department. I finally gave it up when my schedule became too busy to attend the meetings to plan meetings.

And it was that comment that sparked the realizatoin that I've had before, that a lot of the administrative and bureacratic unpleasantness people describe is exactly what is commonplace in the corporate world. We expect the experience of "serving the guru" to be within the realm of the Autobiography, and instead discover it's in the realm of Dilbert. Consider:

- meetings to plan meetings.
- secretive layoffs, and use of the universal euphimism "pursuing other opportunities."
- a fertile breeding ground for petty tyrants, including some who are probably operating from well defined neurotic patterns.
- a board of directors operating without checks and balances. rewards for those in favor. exile for those out of favor. etc.
- a generally fearful environment, where basic civility is the exception rather than the rule.
-etc.

SayItIsntSo
Registered User
(1/12/04 9:59 am)
Reply 		Re: What is a Cult?
The feeling of righteousness is the core mood alteration among religious addicts. It's maybe the most pernicious of all addictions because its so hard for a person to break his delusion and denial. How can anything be wrong with loving God and giving your life for good works and service to mankind?

Toxic guilt: no right to be unique. Toxic guilt forces you into constant self-inventory. Life is a problem to be solved rather than a mystery to live. Toxic guilt keeps you endlessly working on yourself and analyzing every event and transaction. Toxic guilt puts you in our head a lot. Toxic guilt is a way to feel powerful when you are really powerless.

Replace "toxic" with SRF.

Read: "Healing the Toxic Shame," by John Bradshaw.

Any church can manipulate people who are shame-based. I don't have time to outline everything about shame, but I strongly advise anyone struggling to leave SRF or any church where personal boundries have been violated, to learn something about toxic shame. John Bradshaw's books just happen to be what I've studied. Unfortunately the down side is mental healing doesn't happen fast, and most will need professional help and support.

This site barely scratches the surface of toxic shame, and isn't the whole story by any means. I don't see a lot of honesty here. I see fear of being honest. Of some reprisal, either from people or the heavens. That evidence is in the lurking nature of this board, and I think that's really, really sad. The evidence is also in deleted posts. Take charge of our opinions.

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