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chuckle chela
Registered User
(6/25/03 9:11 pm)
Reply 		Communication Breakdown
I was really struck by dawnrays' mention (in the "Layoffs" section, June2003 thread, June 25, 03 posting) of the fact that despite her pleadings for discussion after the murder/suicide of the members of the SD temple, the monastic leaders at Mother Center (or at the temple or wherever) refused to allow any sort of discussion.

This is hardly a new revelation, although it really hit home for me reading dawnrays' description of the utter frustration, bewilderment, anger, sorrow, and desperation many in the SD community must have felt. We've heard how once the Spiritual Life Committees in the ashram got to dealing with some sensitive issues requiring some candid discussions they were summarily shut down. We've heard about a number of similar incidents where the desire for communication was thwarted by those at Mother Center. Borg, for example, has told us how they fear NVC.

This intrigues me. Can any shed any further light on how the senior monastics responded, in detail, to requests for discussion, regardless of where and when those requests were made? For example, dawnrays, can you tell us how they responded when you pleaded for opportunities for discussion and dialogue. What reasons or excuses did they give? What alternative solutions, if any, did they offer? Why did they think discussion was of no value? What specifically did they say (gulp, if anything)? and perhaps most importantly, what is your sense of why they refused?

This refusal to discuss has been perhaps the most perplexing thing I've found about all of this mess in SRF. It just boggles my mind. It has been suggested that the leaders are convinced they know everything and we know nothing, at least nothing of much consequence. It has been suggested in the past on this board that the leaders are so fearful of discovering that they are not perfect and have some shadows of their own that they desperately avoid genuine dialogue, fearful that the discussions of Things That Matter might reveal their inadequacies.

I have no idea whether either of these ideas is at all true.

Are the reasons all summed up by Vishwananda's 2001 statement: "This is an old teaching and we know what we're doing," the additional implication being, of course, "so stop with the questions and requests"?

I know some of these matters have been dealt with in the past here in the Walrus. Vulcan and others made a number of great points about some of this stuff many moons ago.

I have another reason for asking. Not too long ago, a friend attended a regional retreat led by two ministers (yeah, both have the orange robes with the clerical collars). My friend mentioned that they both looked kinda lonely and sad. When it came time for the satsang, the monks spent well over double the allotted hour (or whatever). As several people noted, they just seemed to want to talk and talk; they wanted to reach out, and they wanted to receive contact in return. A number of people were really struck by this. At the end of the retreat, several people were going to a nearby recreational area for some fun and relaxation. Someone asked the monks if they'd like to come along and they jumped at the opportunity as eagerly as any ten-year-olds might. Again, the monks were really looking, it seemed to my friend, for some genuine contact.

This is pretty sad stuff. Borg, you obviously have an extensive knowledge of NVC. Do you or anyone else see any possibilty of reaching any of the senior monastics through some attempts at something like NVC?

One of the problems I see is that we don't teach communication skills in SRF. There is some stuff in the teachings, but we don't really practice good communication skills. As soulcircle said recently, he wanted to find his own voice; he has the listening skills down (in the sense that he's been listening to the monastics tell him what to do for years and years).

It seems to me that "finding your own voice" is probably one of the central parts of spiritual growth (and I use the word "spiritual" in its broadest sense). The SRF environment is clearly failing in allowing many of its members find their own voices; that is, find and develop a sense of autonomy. Is it any wonder that so many express relief and satisfaction when they come to the Walrus and find out they aren't crazy, they do count, they do have a voice?

This inability or outright refusal to allow members to develop their own sense of autonomy just baffles me. Why is it like this? What is it that prevents communication?

I would be interested in hearing any details of how Mother Center justifies its apparent position that discussion isn't required.

dawnrays
Registered User
(6/25/03 10:51 pm)
Reply 		Re: Communication Breakdown
Hi chuckle,

Alot of people were really stunned and upset after that happened at the temple. They were very active devotees whom I didn't personally know as they were sort of inner circle type people.

We wanted to have the meetings at our temple. People going there live so far apart, we thought it might be easier. Some people also wanted to have al-anon meetings there. Many srf'ers are former substance abusers or have it in thier families or just plain have dysfunctional families. I am sure you are no stranger to this fact.

We were told that these meetings would defile the purity of "the temple". We were also told that we could not announce these meetings at the services. We had decided to have them at peoples homes by this time. I thought it might be nice to have a bulliten board. SD is very transient. Alot of people come and go and there is always a need for rides, house sharing, babysitting and normal stuff. We thought also we could post things like our meetings there. I wrote to daya and sister savrita wrote back that there were "books" for that purpose. The ushers kept them in the back somewhere and they were supposed to have bulliten board type stuff. I had been there five years and I never knew about these books, nobody else did either, I'm sure they were out of date. I argued with her by mail but you can guess how that went. Again, they did not want to "defile" the temple with a public bulliten board.

The whole thing makes me so sad. MC did send a note after the incident to express how "heart broken" they were. I actually liked my minister there, he was very nice. The thing is, the ministers have no real say or authority. Most of the devotees don't even go to counseling. They are so in awe of the monks I think they are ashamed of their problems. I knew one woman there who was having a very hard time with her young children. She actually had some trouble with cps (child protective services). They actually held it against her in an incident that she belonged to srf (associating it with a cult). She had her children taken from her (not specifically for this, but it didn't help). Do you know this woman was to ashamed to tell her own minister? I urged her to but she said she didn't consider it an "srf problem".

Nobody seeks help until it's too late.

What can you do? Be a part of this sick culture?

I'm sorry I sounded so sad and fatalistic. It's nice of you to start this thread. I honestly think they need to put stuff like this (real stuff) in the srf magazine. They hide it. They are ashamed of it and ashamed of us. srf will be the first to disappear when you have a problem. I've seen it again and again. In the Washington group, one of the members died of Aids. He was a very nice and devout young black man. A beautiful soul.

I was so upset. I never heard about it until he'd been gone for over a month. Nobody thought to politely announce his death or funeral or anything. I would have liked to have known.

I've practically raised my children all alone. There is no support system for parents in srf. You know, you show up with kids and some people actually give you looks (like you've done something to be ashamed of!)

I'm so sorry, but I'm so sick of this renunciant holier than thou crap. As far as I am concerned they are niave and sheltered at best.

Love and thanx,

dawnrays

soulcircle
Registered User
(6/25/03 11:03 pm)
Reply 		are we second-class citizens
are we even people,

reminds me how novel it felt when I started asking homeless people their names, and then even remembering their names.

we are a job to the monastics
they have a limited time out among us
they go through the rituals
they observe and share a few pleasantries

when not accepting presents from us once a year
when not receiving our fawning pronams after services
[ "not touching us 'cause they lose in the contact"]
NOTE the quotation marks above

then back among themselves they make the decisions
we have not seen an annual budget item on the yearly expenses
or one receipt column on the income ledger
back among themselves among "people" they
make the decisions
........seemingly having not asked us homeless our name

how many years will you wait
before a nun with limited resources granted, gives a simple home made gift to one of us

how many years will you wait to receive a card even at Easter from a monk, yes I have received a Christmas card from Daya Mata.... she received the odd grand from me over twenty years ago or a few grand

~~~~~

what I am feeling more than saying is

not only does it not matter that I am absent from the Temple I helped build over several years

as it doesn't matter that 40 and more nuns and monks are gone

it doesn't matter at all what we say in these first ten thousand posts on this board

but I will tell you from the mountaintop of my caring for each of you

that if you recall the first time you read "God's Boatman,"

that if you recall "coming home," upon reading the autobiography

from the mountaintops of our loving a friend like PY and each other, we skip and sing, not noticing the pebble of organization and human foibles [ours included] bordering on evil
..not noticing the pebble, underfoot briefly

and a passion for the adventure PY first hinted to us about in his adventure in life carries the day and nurtures us

how to respond to your

to your understanding circle
chuckle chela

chuckle chela, how to be an understanding friend for you

as you are to us

gratitude circle

redpurusha
Registered User
(6/26/03 9:59 am)
Reply 		Re: Communication Breakdown
dawnrays, you are posting observations many people have but don't want to say. I don't have close relations with SRF activity, temples or ministers (only attend a service every once in while), I keep a distance. And from what I have observed, and from the experiences I've read about here on this board, I'm better off this way. I wish all the best to those who are in close association with SRF, to the monastics and regular temple-goers, everyone has their way of practicing the teachings, and I respect that, but most of us (or just speaking for myself) are house-holders and the only temples we can visit daily is in a corner of our room, in our own body-temple. And the only contact we have with other devotees (of Yogananda's teachings) are through the internet and message boards such as these. I find that this works just fine for me.

ranger20
Registered User
(6/26/03 11:31 am)
Reply 		Re: Communication Breakdown
Quote:
We wanted to have the meetings at our temple. People going there live so far apart, we thought it might be easier. Some people also wanted to have al-anon meetings there. Many srf'ers are former substance abusers or have it in thier families or just plain have dysfunctional families. I am sure you are no stranger to this fact.

We were told that these meetings would defile the purity of "the temple".


The word "purity" just seems to scream out that something's wrong, it seems particularily symptomatic of an orginizational shadow that's miles wide. Especially since most of what I know about sprituality in action ("faith without works is dead") I learned at twelve step groups.

I love the vibes at the small church where our local meetings are. I sometimes attend their services on Sundays because I find them so attractive. A lot of people there are truly joyous. Some of the members do training for service dogs. Recently I sat in a pew next to a beautiful golden retriever who was learning to be a guide dog. He and his handler were next to me at the communion rail. If I have ever in my life felt the presence of Jesus, it was there. I think it's a little more iffy for "pure" people, as in Matthew 9, "I have not come for the righteous..." :hat

Heck, I have sometimes gone for private retreats to a Trappist monastery not too far from here. That's one of the strictest orders around, and I've met some very happy brothers, with a great generosity of spirit. At their services, there is a period where everyone is encouraged to shake hands and greet their neighbors. The first time it was hard for me! That's right, not pronam, but shake hands, and talk!

The word "purity" just seems to stand for a lot of fear. And you can see it trickle down from the top in SRF, it does seem to be pervasive. We speak of, and long for, a relationship with a God of grace, and compassion, who loves us way beyond what is reasonable.

I think that people who have such a relationship are the ones who are not fear based in their religion, and are not excessively concerned with being impure. If I really (that is, really) have a God of infinite compassion, then my own merits or demerits cease to matter so much.

I'm there sometimes, not at others, and I do not see it currently pervading groups of SRF people.



X Insider
Registered User
(6/26/03 1:51 pm)
Reply 		Re: Communication Breakdown -- to Chuckle Chela et al
Although I don't write much on this board anymore, I do enjoy checking in now and then. Today I feel a sense of frustration as I write, so I will be brief in writing my personal opinion:

Why is there no real communication possible with Mother Center and with the monastics? Because it is a cult and open communication is not allowed. If it were allowed, the cult would soon lose its power and dissolve.

Mother Center hired consultants to teach communication skills to the monastics. At one point the consultants gave a seminar about counseling suicidal people. At this meeting, a senior counselor, in charge of training other counselors, stated that "SRF members do not become suicidal." The consultant replied that this was not true. The consultants were fired.

I could go on and on, but there are plenty of relevant stories already posted on this board. In closing, NVC will not help. God on a blazing horse will not help. As I see it, SRF has become a cult fully intent on maintaining its own existence and to fulfill that purpose, communication with outside influence must be censored and controlled.

Edited by: X Insider at: 6/26/03 1:53 pm
babaGEE
Registered User
(6/26/03 2:20 pm)
Reply 		Re: Communication Breakdown -- to Chuckle Chela et al
'THAT'S THE WAY IT HAS TO BE":evil This response would seem to sum up MC's attitude of the above and is the response that I received in the following incident:

It came from the mouth of a nun in the accounting/legal office at Mother Center. I had donated an item that SRF sold for several thousands of dollars. The receipt I received from Mother Center, after 6 months and many calls, just said "this particular item I donated was received by SRF" The receipt did not have their tax I.D. number nor the amount received from the sale which is what all other non-profits include on this type of receipt for the donor's tax purposes. I basically accused them of accounting malpractice since by not stating the correct amount they can fudge on their sales tax (churches and non-profits still have to pay sales tax) I had also been asked by a monk what the wholesale value of the item was. Hmmm... I also told her that I wouldn't be donating one more penny to them.
She said, "THAT'S THE WAY IT HAS TO BE.">:
I was so furious, if I had any way to get their tax I.D number which theoretically I'm supposed to get if I ask for it, I would report them to some auditors I know that work with the State Board of Equalization, but why bother.

True Enuf
Registered User
(6/26/03 9:04 pm)
Reply 		Re: Communication Breakdown -- to Chuckle Chela et al
Baba, I'm not sure it's an IRS requirement that the Tax ID of a 501(c)(3) be noted on a receipt, whether it's cash, securities, art, etc... The IRS knows if the named charity is qualified. But if you're taking a deduction on your tax return for an item of several grand, there must be a value listed on it, and sounds like you may have needed an independent appraisal as well. In addition, the receipt must state that no goods or services were received in exchange for the gift (otherwise you must deduct that from the fair value of the gift).

I'm not sure if the burden is on the charity to furnish the amount they received when they sold, or if it is even relevant. The IRS wants to know what the exact value was (in the case of stock) or reasonably determined value (e.g., an antique, painting, rare book) on the date of transfer, not a week before or a week after. You may want to ask a tax lawyer or tax accountant regarding this matter.

Lobo
Registered User
(6/26/03 11:01 pm)
Reply 		Re: "Bulletin Board"
Just wanted to say that Fullerton Temple has a bulletin board. It is mentioned as well in the Sunday service, "For further information check out the bulletin board in the foyer after the service."

I've only seen SRF-related stuff posted there, such as service days and the like, so I don't know if they'd allow the type of announcement that you tried at SD. Knowing SRF as I do, I don't believe that they would, as the bulletin board is for the devotee's and the general public, and it is the latter whom SRF would not want to discover that some SRF devotee's from time to time (sadly always!) have taken their lives.

Best

chuckle chela
Registered User
(6/27/03 12:08 am)
Reply 		Re: Communication Breakdown
We were told that these meetings would defile the purity of "the temple".

I'm sitting here staring at the monitor. Stunned. I should be way beyond being able to be stunned by any of this, but I'm not.

It seems to me that the logical extension of this thought is that the members and their humanity will defile the temple. Why not just keep the temple ever empty and perfectly pure? (Funny that: pretty soon that's what may happen!)

But I don't want to express all the reasons why I think this statement is, at face value, so utterly horrible, and why it seems to explain so much about what is wrong with SRF. Are there any SRF supporters out there who can explain and justify such a statement? (Where's astral7 when you need him/her?). Is there anyone out there who is proud to be part of an organization whose leaders say things like that?

How utterly nice of the nuns to send a note expressing how heart broken they were. Indeed.

Thanks so much for sharing, dawnrays. I hope things are going better for you now.

Ranger, I loved what you wrote:

Quote:
The word "purity" just seems to stand for a lot of fear. And you can see it trickle down from the top in SRF, it does seem to be pervasive. We speak of, and long for, a relationship with a God of grace, and compassion, who loves us way beyond what is reasonable.

I think that people who have such a relationship are the ones who are not fear based in their religion, and are not excessively concerned with being impure. If I really (that is, really) have a God of infinite compassion, then my own merits or demerits cease to matter so much.



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