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Kevin Registered User (12/29/01 10:01 pm) Reply	Guru System Revisited Andrew Harvey, (Ex-disciple of Meera Mata,an Indian guru living in Germany) went through a disillusionment about the Guru-Disciple relationship similar to what many of us are going thru now in SRF; I thought to post here some of his ideas taken from his latest book: "The Return of the Mother”, it's a long read but he makes good points: Pg. 152 Ashrams, in my experience, are lunatic asylums filled with jealous and needy people. What gurus do is divide and rule. They are the magical ‘other,” everybody’s in love with them, focused on them, and everybody hates whatever position the others have with them. The gurus keep this infantile situation going because it keeps them in power and “indispensable.” Pg. 278 There would be no gurus without people who are, as I was, hungry to play the disciple, just as there would be no criminals without policemen and judges. There would be no so called ‘Mothers’ without thousands of people anxious , as I was, to play children in the unhelpful—because regressive and narcissistic—way. PG 279Question: ??? If the guru system does not work, how will spiritual transmission take place? ..I think there are many solutions. What I am trying to propose is a new paradigm that looks to me like this: First, direct contact with the divine, not through anyone but through a naked exposure of your true self to the true self of the Divine Mother, in whatever aspect you worship her. Secondly , a group of devoted friends, spiritual seekers, who really support each other. They might have different vows, different ways of approaching reality, but they will meet to pray and practice together, support each other, and share democratically their wisdom…. when you trust a group of people, when you invoke the Divine Mother and trust the Divine Mother to be there, when people open to each other gently and speak with each other, miracles take place, Instead of people looking to some master to bring them wisdom, they start to find and share a connection with their won divine wisdom… we can actually go to each other because we are all fragments of the Divine Mother. Everyone has their own life-wisdom, which a patriarchal system of spiritual authority has decried, denied, and degraded. What we all have to do is to learn how to be together, to listen to each other, to honor each other’s sacred wisdom, to learn from the different aspects of the Divine Mother that each of us are. This will be the real spiritual revolution, the only way spiritual tran-sformation will get through…. listen to the emergence of that sacred wisdom, and pool it together, in groups, in “tribes”, not with leaders but with guides or friends—friends who admit their own imperfections, guides who admit that they may have got things wrong, who admit that they got huge areas of “shadow” that they’re still working on and that they need the help of everyone else to deal with. If that were the case, everyone would feel liberated to talk to and with everyone else and to share, because we would all feel that we have something to contribute, which we do! Each one of us has got something important to give and each one of us has got to learn how to listen to the truth of everyone else. Pg. 281 Most of the ashrams I have known and visited are not sacred environments where people progress; they’re places in which people regress—to blind adoration, spiritual vanity, sibling rivalry, mirroring and parroting of the so-called master—and in my experience, sadly, I have seen very little real spiritual progress made in them. Pg. 283 In our situation it’s become a free-for-all in which there are very few checks or balances, and in which almost anybody can get away with almost anything because of the lack of tradition of lineage itself, as recent appalling scandals show, no longer works and cannot work in such a different modern conditions. …Ramakrishna knew, I think, that the guru-system would collapse (and needed to) and that’s why he made the point again and again in his teachings to go directly to the divine. He foresaw the confusion, the lack of standards, the lack of any real transmission in this particular age, and realized that the divine Mother had provided a solution for it—direct contact with her, with the energy of divine love through simple prayer, simple meditation, simple service that would bypass this need to get trapped in different kind of magical illusion or moribund transmission systems. Pg. 462 Belief in a guru: I think the gurus aren’t the only one to blame for the ways in which we’ve put them into positions of power. We are also to blame, because we’re looking to reproduce the glory of our imagined childhood, we’re looking to have magical solutions to our lives, we’re looking to have a totally divine being to love in a totally simple way, and all of this is hooey and illusion—and narcissism, too. Pg. 464 Trying to attain liberation by worshipping a so-called divine being, which is essentially a system of projection, doesn’t work, It gives you certain experiences and even certain vision, and I’ve had those experiences and those visions. But to liberate yourself, you have to enter into a relationship with your own divinity without any master, without any intermediary. .. “You and I , Mother, are one. I’m your directly empowered, sacred, heavenly child. Give me what I need.” Pg. 485 Disagreement and Doubt I have come to believe that real spiritual guides welcome disagreement and doubt. They are actually delighted when you disagree or doubt, for two reasons: One is because those who are really awake know they can learn from anyone, and the other is that doubt is part of the necessary finding out of the secret hiding places of the false self. Someone who is truly realized would have no need to cling to any role or position, so why would they mind being doubted? Pg. 329 Taoist love and respect superior adepts and value immensely their wisdom and direction but never divinize them. Everyone in the end has to do the great work alone and together with all other begins and the Tao itself. Pg. 285 What are the signs of recognizing a true guru or a real spiritual guide? Well, the Tibetan tradition said you should test your gurus for a very long time…you should watch them and try to catch them out…and that one should practice at least 12 yrs. before wholeheartedly accepting them as one’s guru. For myself I think there are clear signals that a guru or guide is NOT awake. ONE is if money is involved! I Don’t mean there should not be any money involved, there should be a reasonable fee collected from participants to a retreat or for an activity to take place. But if there is a large amount of money involved or continual drain of money, then I would be suspicious. SECOND, any kind of sexual exploitation reveals the presence of a lack of freedom and, I think, is psychologically dangerous. I don’t buy for a moment the notion that it is okay for the guru to sleep with disciples. The Dalai Lama was asked years ago if there was anyone he knew of who was free enough to be in a state of emptiness and tantrically transmitting when they’re having sex with one of their disciples. He said “NO!” If anybody knows, he knows. The THIRD thing, I think, is that there should be no attempt to direct the life of the disciple, to interfere in any way with the choices of the disciple. Nearly all masters will tell you that one of the telltale signs of falsity is the desire to manipulate lives. A guide can give advice, can suggest, but even then should do so with tremendous discretion. The guide is there to represent enlightened love, and to go on representing that in every situation. Not to tell you what to do, no to direct you without being asked, not to make it impossible for you not to do certain things: the guide is there to be, and you are there to drink from that ecstatic being and nothing else. If you are being asked for money or sexually exploited or being in any other way, however subtly or charmingly, psychologically manipulated, then get the hell out because you are in the hands of someone who wants to use you in one way or another. FOURTH: Another thing, from my own experience, is to be extremely skeptical about great experiences as proof of the divinity of the master. I have realized that a so-called master can have extraordinary powers and give marvelous experiences without being at all enlightened. Remember Ramakrishna’s dismissal of occult powers and his continual prayer to live not in power but in pure love, i.e.: don’t be hooked on powers or on the sensation of great experiences—they may be a sign of magic, of occult manipulation, but not in any way of enlightenment. They may be used to take you over, seduce, use, manipulate, enthrall and enchant you and not at all signs of the direct wisdom that liberates you. A great many famous gurus are not enlightened beings, but occult magicians, people go on worshipping them because they become hooked an the drug of ‘experiences’ they’re pushing, and in a time like ours when nearly everyone disbelieves in the occult, or is simply ignorant of it, or is too afraid to even imagine it, such occult manipulation has immense power. Pg. 287 FIFTH: An authentic guide admits mistakes. One of the things I most admire in the Dalai Lama is that he often admits the mistakes he has made when they’re pointed out to him. Just recently, and this is a wonderful example and very relevant to what we’re saying, a nun got up at a meeting of teachers in Dharamsala and said, “ Imagine, Your Holiness, that when you went into a temple, all you saw around you were female Buddhas, and imagine that you had to sit at the back, that the women just herded you into the back. imagine that you had to bow to a nun all the time even if she had been only ordained the day before, and you had been a monk for years.” She went on and on, dramatizing the plight of women in Buddhist tradition, and at the end of her speech His Holiness just put his head into his hands and wept and looked up, saying, “ What can I do now? What shall I do? Tell me.” That is the authentic voice of awakeness, because it says "I DON'T KNOW EVERYTHING, BUT I AM LISTENING". When you tell me something that strikes the note of the real, I adjust everything , if necessary, to put this new richness of the truth into practice.” The enlightened mind is not omniscient in any way that we know or can imagine, because it’s not interested in omniscience. It is endlessly receptive, endlessly sensitive, endlessly awake to the sound of love, and endlessly able to be flexible enough, humble enough, awake enough to put that sound of love into practice in the different circumstances presented to it. Pg. 289 Masters must be accountable for what goes on around them, or they are not really masters. What does it mean to say that someone is enlightened when what goes on around them is is devastating and harsh and cruel and criminal? either the master is not enlightened and is passively allowing this, or is actually participating in it in some way and is actively criminal. (Referring to Rajneesh who has strong realization but not a complete one). Pg. 289 The next few years are going to have to see a hard-nosed reevaluation of this whole area, and the reintroduction of sober and sobering criteria at every level of the spiritual enterprise. I myself believe that GURU ABUSE HAS REACHED EPIDEMIC PROPORTIONS, it is a kind of spiritual cancer that is destroying from within the spiritual health and independence of thousands of seekers. I also believe that the time is coming when international legislation will be necessary to curb the unchecked power and force of the false gurus and their occult power corporations. What will also be needed is the setting up of foundations and centers where people who have been abused can go for real comfort, free legal help if necessary, and sustained spiritual assistance from other who have established a healthy direct relationship with the divine. Pg. 290 These last few months have made it painfully clear to me HOW LITTLE HELP A PERSON WHO TRIES TO PROTEST THE CRUELTY OF A GURU CAN EXPECT from anyone. His or her fellow disciples will be in denial and will frequently join the guru in demonizing the one who has begun to see through the illusion. Pg. 291 To be betrayed by your so-called master is death, and in this case, as in other cases of radical abuse, mourning has its stages of agony, depression, necessary and wholly justified revolt. Healing is when you can stand on your own in direct relationship with the Divine Mother. Every day that passes confirms me in the truth of the new and marvelous directness of the relationship with her I am uncovering and coming into. Pg. 323 There is a story who Ramkrishna, who knew everything about false gurus, told quite often. A sincere disciple was spiritually in love with a charlatan. He repeated with the most intense devotion the name of that charlatan as if it was the divine name. The passion of his devotion was so great that the divine flooded him with real powers, real siddhis, one of which was the ability to walk on water. Seeing his disciple walking on water one day, the false master (who of course knew deep inside that he was a fake) was heartened. “I can’t be such a fake after all” he thought to himself “ if the power of my name is so great!” Overjoyed he ran to the river, and, chanting his own name, attempted to walk on the water. Naturally, he sank like a stone. This is a very profound story. It shows clearly that it is the quality of the disciple’s adoration, not necessarily the authenticity of the master, that provides the fuel, the Shakti, for awakening. … However, the Full awakening cannot take place with a false master. You can only go part of the journey through the passion of projection. There comes a time when you are either stuck in that projection or the Mother shatters it ruthlessly to let you out of the subtle cage that it has erected around you, even while it has begun the process of your liberation.
rayuna Registered User (2/11/02 9:42 am) Reply	Re: Guru System Revisited Kevin, Kevin... Hmmm...Harvey also loves to toot his own horn. Valid points here, BUT: Master was a true one. The disappointment is with the leadership in SRF and the general culture it has become. If there are some disappointed with our Guru (yes capitalized!) that would require a separate board. And they would also probably need some intensive help. Wonder how Harvey got over it? Perhaps by creating a non-guru mythology. Besides guru is "dispeller of darkness". Ultimately it IS up to us to draw near to the Divine.
Musicman Unregistered User (2/11/02 11:10 am) Reply	Tut-tut Hmmmm, sounds like a bit of tut-tutting going on here. Kevin has hit the nail precisely on the head--bravo! Criticism of the guru and the "guru system" is not illegal or out of bounds on this board, and none of has the right (not even the exalted Walrus him/herself) to tell others they should take their beef elsewhere if they don't approve of the guru 100%. "Master was a true one. The disappointment is with the leadership in SRF and the general culture it has become." This is an attempt to establish parameters and boundaries for the discourse on this board, but you are speaking for yourself, Rayuna, not necessarily for the rest of us. I believe you can't separate PY from SRF. Inevitably, some who feel disenchanted with the organization will cast a critical eye toward its founder, and no one should feel tut-tutted or ostracized for doing so. One may disagree with such criticism, but it remains valid and necessary. There is no proof or demonstrable evidence that PY was a "true one," whatever that may mean. That is strictly an article of faith, not fact. Recall that everything you believe you "know" about PY has been disseminated and mediated by the very organization you take to task for its faithlessness and duplicity. I would say that most of us know little or nothing about PY beyond what we have learned from SRF. There is ample reason for healthy skepticism and debate concerning this guru and the whole notion of gurus in general. Those who are critical of or disappointed in the guru don't need to go to a separate board. This is their board as much as anyone else's. There is nothing wrong with such people, and neither do they need "intensive help," as if doubting the guru were some form of mental illness that required medication and counseling. I think a "non-guru mythology" is actually the default setting for most rational people. What we're coping with here are the sometimes tragic consequences of the "guru mythology." That needs to be addressed forthrightly, and it will be--here, on this board.
rayuna Registered User (2/11/02 12:30 pm) Reply	Re: Tut-tut Well if everything you know of the Guru is from SRF then there's a sad story there...everything I know about him is from my own experience.
Kevin Registered User (2/15/02 10:36 pm) Reply	Doubts & Love " From the place where we are right flowers will never grow in the Spring. The place where we are right is hard and trampled like a yard. But doubts & love dig up the world like a mole, a plough. And a whisper will be heard in the place where the ruined house once stood". By Yehuda Amichai
Kevin Registered User (2/16/02 12:21 am) Reply	Orthodoxy I spent 20 years in SRF serving in a very active role both at the medit. groups & temples and privately in my personal sadhana. I also spent years in close working contact with monastics. Looking back now I see how SRF ideals and SRF behavior have diverged. By SRF I mean the organization and the devotees as a whole, as a common sharing of beliefs, perspectives, attitudes and practices, as habits of thoughts and tendencies, as interpretative methods and working systems. I thought I joined an organization built on (among other things) freedom from dogma (I grew up in a heavy Catholic environment so you can imagine!), founded on the principle of the guru-disciple relationship, a relationship where the guru asks the disciple if he can be his "friend" for eternity --as Yukteswar asked Mukunda-- based on shared, common respect. The guru dispelled the darkness for himself so he can give me some very much needed pointers. Who wouldn't wholeheartedly return friendship, loyalty and gratitude to him? The guru in this case offers Kriya (comprehensively the 10 step of Patanjali: Yama-Niyama, etc.+ devotion) as an indipendent tool thru which one can achieve God or at least move closer to IT! Away with all priests, rabbis, monks and televangelists, it will be between me and God, a direct approach. Yet... those points that struck a cord within me then seem to have dissipated like another onw of Maya illusions! Instead of open minded people open to questioning and doubts one finds himself as in the Catholic church. The guru every thought is sculpted in stone and both devotees and monks pontificate about absolute truths and delight in splitting hairs, devotees blindly follow every dictum from Mount WashVatican as a direct command by God (how easily it's forgotten how Yogananda himself borrowed from left and right in forming his "own" teachings. How he was open and adapting his suggestions according to the most recent discoveries into the laws of medicine, diet, psychology and why not, spirituality. And that he didn't have all the answers!) A real guru is one that empowers the disciple, that facilitates growth and evolution, he requires obedience and loyalty but in a way that makes the disciple stronger not weaker! Slowly I fell into a trap and found myself in the good company of most of my brother disciples. But I realized that I gave away so much of myself that nothing 'real' was left. I "killed" (or beaten up for good, to use a kshatrya expression) the ego to such an extent nothing was left. O yes, I still was meditating hours every day and with good results but it took me years to see why I felt stuck 'there' in the land of nowhere though adorned by spiritual experiences and 'miracles'. O yes, I obeyed my spiritual counselors even against my own conscience, trusting God would work thru them. O yes I followed all the rules and so on. The result? Here it is: Now no one, ever, in this life or future life will ever convince me to give away my own power, be it a saint or a guru or a monk or an avatar! Yes, I will accept counsel and guidance from anyone ahead of me who will want to offer it when I ask, and I will be a grateful and loyal friend to that person and offer my love in return. But it will be ultimately between God and me, it has always been the only way! To the land of certanties and comforting, safe, pre-digested orthodoxies, old and new, I prefer the floating raft of my confusion and self determination. I might not know where the next ray of light will come from but I chose, though trembling, the unsettling, often lonely way of shifting paradoxes, and maybe relative truths, but real, practical and sound to me. At times I look back toward the fold and I miss its warmth and all the sheep and lambs (aren't they cute and nice?) but I know that one by one after they have learned their lessons they will have to leave it and find their way to larger pastures! Yogananda? For me he is a GREAT LOVER OF GOD who found his way and somehow tried to help others that 's all! He is great but he is not perfect or God himself (his incorrupted body would turn in the tomb if he hears that!). He doesn't have to be perfect, actually more I think about it, he must NOT be perfect or in so doing he becomes either a phony or another myth! Another Son of God and we the poor undeserving sinners. I hope one day to find other brothers and sisters who feel alike and maybe find some strength and comfort in them but never another cult, even if I decide to hang around.
rayuna Registered User (2/17/02 2:43 pm) Reply	Re: Orthodoxy You go! I agree especially about giving power away and will elaborate later. Thanks. He (Yogananda) is still sweet. That's all.
web kriya Unregistered User (2/27/02 12:50 pm) Reply	Web Kriya Initiation it is in Italian but it is a start! if the link doesn't work, cut and paste the following address into your computer Address slot: surf.to/kriya;
Ed West Unregistered User (2/27/02 6:04 pm) Reply	Yogandanda perfect and more ramblings Hi, I don't think Yogananda was perfect, he wasn't supposed to. The idea is to give up all your work to God, to do your duty, and be unattached to your results of your efforts. Yogananda was definately that... that's what being a Yogi is. As for the SRF, Yogananda's duty was to come here to start an organization to bring kriya more into the mainstream. Although we are in the inside and there are problems like any institutions, it is legitimate. But SRF was only part of his mission and of kriya yoga. I am not too fond of organized religion, but I live in Encinitas and for some people it is great - they really need the structure. I can also sense who serves Yogananda and who serves the institution - those who want control and have greed like the institution. SRF changed the kriya initiation vows to pledge church allegiance to SRF - so when you get initiated through SRF, your master(s) are the SRF Gurus and SRF, and how they filtered their teachings. Overall SRF is great for some, who need to work out all of their organized religion karmas - and in fact it is very good karma for people that are in SRF instead of a dogmatic Christian church (cos they are doing kriya), or working for a company who's motivation is greed. Of course, it's better karma to not get stuck in an organization and have the direct connection with God, like some of us on this forum. blahblahblah... -ed
Lobo Registered User (2/27/02 8:22 pm) Reply	Re: Orthodoxy Hello Kevin, I just came across your excellent post. You have a good way of describing just the same type of changes that I, too, am going through. Just tired of the SRF changes that have been so heavy, actively making the organization into the new Church; which is something I will go to my grave believing Yogananda never wanted. It is comforting to know that there are other's, like yourself, who feel the same. I don't think that it is part of the guru/disciple relationship for an institution to be involved. If Yogananda is God-realized he has the power, by definition, of transcending the simple barrier of matter; that is, he can communicate to his chela's without the need for a 'successor.' That is the octane that powers my sadhana. If he isn't, then all the kriya's and all the rest, aren't in vain. As he said, 'you're either going forward, or you're going backward; you can't stand still.' So burning karma through kriya practice, man, that's money in the bank! On her website, Yogacharya Margaret Hamilton, a direct disciple of Yogananda's since 1925 (now deceased), quoted Yogananda in one of her talk's as saying that he always used to say, "I don't want people to have Yogananda realization, I want them to have Self-Realization." Best wishes,
WEB KRIYA Unregistered User (2/28/02 8:09 am) Reply	KRIYA INITIATION There is a web site in Italian that has all four KRIYA INITIATIONS posted: surf.to/kriya
Ringbearer Unregistered User (2/28/02 7:09 pm) Reply	Yogacharya Margaret Hamilton Where is her website? Thanks.
Lobo Registered User (2/28/02 9:52 pm) Reply	Re: Yogacharya Margaret Hamilton Ringbearer, www.crossandlotus.com/ I found the quote in one of her talks that the group has posted. Best
Ringbearer Unregistered User (3/1/02 9:00 am) Reply	To Lobo Thank you very much for the website!
vale Unregistered User (3/1/02 2:57 pm) Reply	Kriya on web site Please,read my post under 'Kriya initiation comes from the Gurus': 3.1.02 by Vale.Thank you.
Kevin Registered User (3/7/02 11:16 pm) Reply	At the end finding God transcends organizations Lobo: thank you for quoting Yogacharia Margaret Hamilton.The reason I appreciate it is that I just recently started to listen to what my ‘intuiton’ tells me, after years of parroting the monks and it is reassuring to see the similarities between what she says and at least one of my statements: “On her website, Yogacharya Margaret Hamilton, a direct disciple of Yogananda's since 1925 (now deceased), quoted Yogananda in one of her talk's as saying that he always used to say, "I don't want people to have Yogananda realization, I want them to have Self-Realization” [The following is Kevin’s posting]: “Never forget that the blessings of God are always there and that the gurus will help anyone who is sincerely striving for God. It is Self-Realization not SRF-realization! Whenever the disciple is ready the guru and his blessings appear, whenever the blessing is deserved it comes! It is a natural development! “ I knew it in my heart I am on the right track but it is comforting to find an outward confirmation here and there! [Now I can go and create my own religious organization as the only depository of my infinite wisdom, make tons of money, get blind followers and die as an avatar… why didn’t I think of that before?] RE: Free Kriya on the WEB: Can someone contact the Italian guy who posted the Kriya techniques and offer to translate them? Maybe he can do a posting for english speaking people as well.
soulcircle Registered User (5/9/02 1:58 am) Reply	Re: Orthodoxy Yes, Kevin! I too, have spent 20-30 years very active within SRF and among large numbers of devotees, 17 convocations and deep friendship with monastics and many, many activities with monastics.... even being told by more than a hundred householders, that I played a significant part in their joining. See what happens when one takes a minute with each brand-new visitor, giving them the smile PY would had he been there in person welcoming them. LOL You have written words that I would chose in this entry. So I am saying thank you...joining you in friendship and love in your present openness and weavings of thoughtful understanding in your everyday life, and in here. I hope you stay active in here, as I am new (first entry May '02) and enjoy your presence.
Kevin Registered User (5/9/02 11:20 pm) Reply	About enlightened ones Thank you Soulcircle! I haven’t been visiting Walruss for a while and it was a surprise to find another kind comment to my posting. It seems to be a ‘touchy’ subject. I have been corresponding with an Ex-monk friend of mine who lives a couple of time-zones east. We have been reading some interviews made with some widely accepted realized people. I thought our correspondence might be of some interest: "Hi .... ex-monk: I am slowly reading the Awakening West interviews and found them fascinating. Shantimayi, Neelam, and now Suzanne Segal. It seems each one adds something to the puzzle . I am enjoying Susanne Seagal immensly. I went to the BodhiTree.com and found out they have her book: “Collision with the Infinite”. Her integration of the the human body-mind into an enlightened state, (or vice versa) was interrupted by her sudden death by cancer. It would have been interesting to witness her development because she went thru an awakening for 10 years not knowing what was going on! Definitely, there are as many definitions about awakening and enlightenment as there are enlightened ones! Each one is a facet. But it would be interesting to discover the basics of those states though HOW to achive them ?? according to Seagal one can do really 'nothing' except....well, you must have read the interview! REPLY: Yes, I read all the interviews on that site. It is the same with all accounts of all saints. Everyone is individual and because each one has different karma---they get "liberation" and the physical results of it in different ways--at least outer manifestation. Similar themes are there, but expressions are as unique as each person. Seems no one can follow a "formula" or recipe for enlightenment--which is why a guru can only guide a person, that is all. Which is why just following the lesson or what a guru has said in print can lose its effectiveness—-it wasn't meant for everyone---which is why purity of teachings is ridiculous. One must follow one's inner guru or Self---according to one's karma to be free. This is why great desire is the only essential necessity to any seeker---it is the desire for freedom that sets up the cosmos to bring to that person what is needed to be free. Increase the mind's desire and it brings it much faster. That is why Yogananda emphasized the desire for God---no technique of itself can do it---because any technique is limited. The "enlightened ones" are using limiting words to try to describe something beyond the normal and to those who haven't been there---it makes it harder still. So there may be some confusion looking from the limited mind point of view in----just as much as it is hard to describe to others. At least there is a general pattern to all of them and similarities in types---some with kundalini---some seemingly without---some with much samadhi, some not---some with a message, some not--some with incredible pain and physical changes---some not---some start to awaken but the psychological adjustment is too much and may go over the edge---some quick---some take years to acclimatize. Our ego minds still want to put it in a formula to make sense of it---but then that is its job. REPLY: Funny you mentioned ‘desire’. I was just thinking about Desire as a way, in the East they say: if once you have a desire for God or realization, it will happen! Somehow the cultivation of that desire is important and yet, not making it an obsession seems important too because otherwise that obsession becomes an obstacle like anything else. It is another 'dichotomy'! I guess more one gets closer to the transcendental more one has to use dichotomies. It makes sense we use two self-contradicting thoughts to describe what is beyond linear thinking! I loved your point about preserving the 'teachings pure' as just another B.S. to be used as needed for power and control, I guess for some people it serves for some focus, I know it did for me. Brrr if I think that thru Yogananda and the teachings I knew IT ALL! What a self-righteous peacock I must have been! But it served well to lead me to the land of nowhere....which is so much more 'liberating' , eh, eh… REPLY: Yes, the twists and turns of sadhana are amazing---which is why it is too difficult to see a person's spiritual advancement. In a way--who would have thought that you could be further along spiritually now---than a sannyasi in the order lecturing around the world--but then all of that is about karma and thats all. The land of nowhere is somewhere---its just that it "looks" like nowhere. In the dark night of the soul---the customary spiritual concepts get all muddled up---but they have to be in order to grow---or you couldn't grow---and to the ego it is uncomfortable---well of course it should be uncomfortable, because it is getting closer to the death of the ego. I had so many unorthodox ideas in the ashram---but only YYYYYY could understand--and only to him could I talk freely---so I am grateful that I had him to bounce the ideas off of. It does help in spiritual growth to share such ideas---just like we are doing now--so thanks! "
KS Registered User (5/10/02 5:55 am) Reply	Re: About enlightened ones - to Kevin I totally agree with you guys (gals?). The "path" for each is unique. A one size fits all from the Catholic Church or SRF is silly and holds people back. As SRF (sort of) says "it keeps them parked in Glendale". I am sure that Master would agree. The Bad Ladies, who are of limited intelligence and understanding, took over SRF and did the only thing they understand. They turned SRF into a Mormon/Catholic like church with a strong central government and rules. The goal became to protect it so that it would survive. They also folded in some East meets West ideals so naturally the leader of this new church is God realized and divinely guided (like Jim Jones was). Each path is wonderful and unique. How could God be so boring as to have designed the world so that each must follow in the same foot steps? “With God all is fun, without him everything is everything else but fun” P.S. I think my path to God is going to be more fun than your path to God.
KS Registered User (5/10/02 5:58 am) Reply	Re: About enlightened ones - to Kevin Where is the website you refer to?
Kevin Registered User (5/10/02 7:28 am) Reply	Website http://www.theawakeningwest.com/addl_inter.html; I hope the link works if not cut and paste! This should take you exaclty to the page with the interviews. Enjoy!

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