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SayItIsntSo Registered User (7/11/02 8:03 am) Reply	Support and non-support Walrus edit: The originator of this thread erased the initial message; we have edited it to retain the thread that followed. Edited by: srfwalrus at: 9/5/02 9:19:27 am
Gitano no divino Registered User (7/11/02 9:33 am) Reply	Re: Where to begin? Bravo/a, SayItIsn'tSo. Whom will you hurt? Only those who have something to hide. Whom will you help? All those who need to know the truth about SRF in order to protect themselves. You will find many others on this board, including several eloquent ex-monastics, who will corroborate your tesitmony and share whatever risk there may be (and the risk seems very small). If those who know the truth allow themselves to be intimidated, then SRF wins. That will have incalculable consequences for many "truth-seekers" who are being misled and exploited by this organization. I would urge you to share your experiences and insights. It should be possible to do this in a way that is not libelous. You will find a lot of support here, among friends. I know I speak for all Walrus readers and contributors when I say that we are eager to hear your tale of woe.
X Insider Registered User (7/11/02 5:57 pm) Reply	Re: Where to begin? Fear is what SRF uses to control you, in order to allay their own fears. The longer you are away from the SRF environment, the less you will be affected by the fear. Just plunge ahead, bit by bit, and you will eventually regain confidence in yourself.
wholetruth Registered User (7/11/02 6:49 pm) Reply	Re: Where to begin? I was a loyal member for over 30 years. Refused to think anything negative about the leadership, but the little lies and the big propaganda always bothered me. Couldn't understand at first why people were saying all these bad things about SRF on the internet. But the more I read, and the more I thought about things, the more all the pieces fell into place. Seeking truth brought me to SRF in the first place, but then I put my seeking on hold for a very long time, trusting those I believed were directly guided by God and "Master" (that word always made me feel uneasy) and never myself because I thought I was so spiritually undeveloped compared to them. I don't know the whole truth yet, and maybe I never will. But I'm no longer afraid to ask questions and to hold "spiritual leaders" accountable and subject to the same ethical standards as political leaders, business leaders, etc. 99% of SRFers will never question the organization. It's the 1% and those undecided, uncommitted seekers who are still examining SRF who can be helped by this message board and other related efforts.
Gitano no divino Registered User (7/12/02 11:17 am) Reply	Re: Where to begin? I think we really need to zero in on this idea of "Master." I know, he's a master only of himself, not of others. But is that the way things really worked, and work today? There is always such a gulf between theory and practice in SRF. Wholetruth hit on something vital by stating that s/he felt spiritually inferior to those in charge and hence unqualified to criticize. The notion that there are two groups of people in the world, enlightened and unenlightened, is used by the former to subjugate the latter. I continue to believe that The Guru Papers: Masks of Authoritarian Power by Kramer/Alstad is a very good book, and in it they point out: The guru/disciple relationship, which is inherently authoritarian, cuts off the necessary flow of information for both, creating a feedback-proof system. . . . anything that refutes the guru's point of view is labeled "negativity"; so information that runs counter to accepted beliefs is repressed and punished. . . . Once reason has been undermined, there's no way logically to refute this system—that's why people who are ordinarily considered highly intelligent can become involved in believing, doing, and justifying just about anything. The guru isn't around anymore, but his successors are, and even though they don't claim to be gurus, they sure act that way. Guru-style authoritarianism suffuses the entire organization. It reminds me of the distinction that used to be drawn between fascism and communism. In fascism, everything revolves around a single, deified individual. Communism is more insidious because it is kept in place by a Party of nameless, faceless bureaucrats (like the Sisters and Brothers). Individuals pass away, but the Party remains. It accepts no challenge to its authority, and allows no deviation from its dicta. SRF was a sort of fascist dictatorship under PY (and in other posts I have quoted PY's lavish praise of Mussolini, whom he described as a "master brain"), and it has become a communist tyranny under DM and her cohorts. I'm with wholetruth on this one. I have always had a problem with words like "master" and "lord," because my relationship with divinity (such as it was) was not one of vassal to king. That was not a very useful or appealing conception of divinity to me. Plus, I was raised in the bible belt and had a wacko fundamentalist brother, so all these invocations of "the Lord" really hit a sour note.
wholetruth Registered User (7/12/02 7:48 pm) Reply	Re: Where to begin? Even way back in the early 70's when I came on board, devotees were constantly saying Master-this and Master-that and Master-everything. He was always there looking over their shoulder, showing them exactly what to do. I knew it was a total fantasy, and found it irritating. Consequently in all the years I was involved with SRF, I probably referred to Yogananda as Master about five times and felt slightly nauseous each time. I hated being a puppet or a parrot. Someone talked about dragging anyone we could into SRF. I was guilty of that. Sorry, gardendiva, you got stuck in it for 25 years before you could extricate yourself. Hey, but it sure beat the Catholic Church, right?! At least, we didn't have to go to confession any longer or worry about burning eternally in hell!
Lobo Registered User (7/12/02 9:10 pm) Reply	Re: Where to begin? Dear Say, As a former Fullertonite myself I heard gossip about an usher from a friend that he said was told to him from Satyananda. Of course I was disgusted and upset, that Satyananda would tell members what other members had told him in confidence. During a Sunday morning service I heard Satyananda use the problems of an unnamed member, who he identified as someone who he had counseled. Same response only magnified, that took the cake. I mean if one goes to one's minister to share personal problems seeking help and then finds that a topic for the minister's sunday lecture, even if anon, that's pretty sad IMHO> The gossip, did he/she's first name begin with a C? Don't wish to do anything but see if my "inituition" is correct. A former close friend in the late 60's/early70's, she, but since I haven't been going for quite a while when I do attend she always says things like, "See Master wouldn't let him get away," in front of a crowd. Anyway I don't think any of this stuff that you're sharing is more than personal experience, valid and important since that's what make up our lives.
Lobo Registered User (7/13/02 1:42 pm) Reply	Re: Where to begin? Dear Say, Thanks for your reply. I was very thick at Fullerton from about 69-73 or 74. Even lived next door at the little white house for awhile. Used to play ping-pong in what is now the book room. It was great during those years, just a bunch of young people like myself; most if not all former hippies from the counterculture who'd somehow come together at that time. Then things began to change for me. And I stopped going to temple for about 10 or more years. I went back to a kriya initiation ceremony and when I walked into the foryer (sp) there was the person who I asked you about and a man standing on the first steps of the stairs leading to the balcony. They looked and me and said to each other, "is that ....., he's sure put on alot of weight!" Needless to say I was shocked. First off we were all taught that Master said, "come in silence, leave in silence." Especially, I assumed at the holy kriya initiation ceremony. But no, there was these two standing around talking loudly making unheeded comments about a devotee who'd not been there for years. I've really not gotten over that to tell you the truth. Then I left again for a few more years. When I came back I saw people who'd I'd known since the beginning, some of the guys who we all shared a home with. One person in particular, who I assumed was a dear friend based upon our earlier friendship looked at me when I greeted him gave me a dirty look and walked away. His wife treated me the same. I was of course hurt and angry. Others were more kind and I think that they reflected Yogananda's teachings. But those are just subjective experiences and I don't think, when I reflect upon them that I should allow them to color my feelings about going again. But when I attend the services (very sporadically) I am turned off. S is a good guy I suppose and relates well with the kids, even acting hip with them. But the focus of those long-ago years on meditation seems to have taken a back seat these days at Fullerton. At least that's my take on the matter. Anyway I still meditate, after many years of not doing so working out some issues from an abusive childhood in therapy (like you), and now see myself as a disciple of Yogananda, not SRF. Which means in practical terms that I don't support what they're doing with the organization and just focus on my daily meditations and relating to PY and God. And it seems to be working for me at this time in my life. Best to you!
gardendiva Registered User (7/14/02 6:21 pm) Reply	The past is the past... *Quote:* Someone talked about dragging anyone we could into SRF. I was guilty of that. Sorry, gardendiva, you got stuck in it for 25 years before you could extricate yourself. Hey, but it sure beat the Catholic Church, right?! At least, we didn't have to go to confession any longer or worry about burning eternally in hell! Wholetruth... Not to worry...the past is the past, it doesn't exist anymore. Hey, it's all just part of the show. How else do we learn and grow except throught our experiences....ALL of them!
Gitano no divino Registered User (7/15/02 2:29 pm) Reply	Master Remember that great movie with Jimmy Stewart in which he had an invisible companion, Harvey the Rabbit, who accompanied him wherever he went? That's "Master." It's kinda nice, if you can really make yourself believe it. Like wholetruth, I was never quite able to make the leap of faith. As a consequence, however, I tended to be rather secretive about my SRF activities and didn't share them very readily with anyone. As far as eternal damnation goes, well, the apparent lack of that was an appealing dimension of the teachings--until it surfaced in the form of "bad karma" and "31 incarnations without a guru" if one "leaves the path." I suppose no religion can long exist without some kind of scare tactic to keep followers in line. And like those of most religions, SRF's scare tactics don't work especially well.
gardendiva Registered User (7/15/02 2:46 pm) Reply	Harvey etc. Gitano... I love the Harvey analogy. As far as the scare tactics...they don't even make sense. If God is so loving (remember the story of the farmer and PY suggesting to put his son into a furnace) why in the world would someone be punished, just for leaving a personality or a set of words/guidance? If someone leaves the organization because another way is going to help them grow (i.e. get to know God), why would they be punished for that?? Silly!
LotusLeaf Registered User (7/21/02 11:00 am) Reply	Re: Harvey etc. I personally know of an ex-monastic who was in the ashram with Yogananada. That person heard another devotee ask PY about a saint who had fallen, and she commented to PY (this is a paraphrase) "Isn't it a greater fall for one who has previously been so high? Won't it take him several lifetimes to recover?" PY responded, "No, God would not be so harsh. It only matters how much you love God." (Or something like that.) Anyway, I think all this "many lifetimes of wandering" is simply SRF scare tactics, as others have said. I don't buy it at all.
Rosemarie7 Registered User (11/8/02 10:12 am) Reply	31 incarnations, where did you hear that? After Brom. Robin left SRF I asked as a satsanga question: "If you leave the path is it true that you have to wait one whole incarnation before you can have the benefit of the Guru's teachings again?" Satyananda was very upset by the question, saying it is not true. He seemed upset that such a rumor was going around. he did say if you spurn the Guru, then it's true. Then defined spurning as severely cutting him down. I heard one incarnation as gossip. Where did any of you hear 31 incarnations? Is it written down in a lesson or a book, or is it just a whispered scare tactic? Edited by: Rosemarie7 at: 11/8/02 10:19:02 am
Gitano no divino Registered User (11/8/02 1:11 pm) Reply	Re: 31 incarnations, where did you hear that? Sorry, can´t cite chapter and verse on that one. I do recall hearing it, but consistency isn´t something one could ever accuse SRF teachings/teachers of. (Nor could anyone accuse me of having a flawless memory.) It fascinates me that there is always this cordon sanitaire around Yogananda. I mean, really, doesn´t that just whet your appetite? It does mine! I can´t wait to look behind the curtain and see what wizened, rumpled old man is pulling the levers that make the Wizard spout smoke and fire. What in the hell do these folks have to hide, anyway? A lot, I suspect. Is the divine omnipresent guru so touchy, so sensitive, and so vindictive that anyone questioning his authority and majesty will be made to suffer horrendous consequences? Sounds like some Old Testament god, not one that I would care to believe in. After all, if someone (me) is so mired in delusion that they would venture to criticize THE GURU, don´t they deserve an extra measure of compassion? Didn´t PY supposedly say that if someone strays from the path he will be with them even more, because it is then that they will need his help most? SRF can´t decide if PY is Yahweh (vindictive, rule-dispensing, anal-retentive Old Testament god), or Jesus (milk-of-compassion god). I think he´s a chameleon who conveniently changes colors to suit the locutory circumstances. I´ve said it before, I´ll say it again. Religion is BUSINESS, folks, pure and simple. It involves selling salvation and agents of salvation to people who, very understandably, are terrified of death and the ineluctable vagueries of human existence (made all the more unbearable by our advanced cerebral cortex, which gives us an exquisitely pronounced sense of self-awareness). Anyone who could pin the tale on the guru donkey would automatically undermine SRF´s (and An-nda´s) stock. Unmask Daya Mata (or Kriy-nanda), and you´ve exposed an ugly facet of an organization. Unmask PY, and you demolish the very foundation on which the organization (i.e., the salvation corporation) is predicated. Am I too cynical? To paraphrase John Paul Jones, I have not yet begun to get cynical.
KS Registered User (11/9/02 6:13 am) Reply	Re: 31 incarnations, where did you hear that? The rumor of so many life times of suffering if you leave the ashram is certainly out there. Stronger on the nuns side I believe where the mental control freaks have more power. It is of course a technique of cults used to keep people in line, nothing more.
dd108 Registered User (11/9/02 12:04 pm) Reply	Re: 31 incarnations, where did you hear that? Gitano, Is the whole concept of salvation flawed in your view? I don't mean some kind of "I'm-just-a-worm-grovelling-in-the-dirt" Southern Baptist type mentality (forgive me if there are any Southern Baptists out there reading this who take offense!). But the concept that God's grace (i.e. "Self-Realization", etc.) can transform one's life--is that all just smoke and mirrors? I agree that there has been a lot of "business of salvation" based "religion" in the last 2000 years or so, but my own experience also shows that true saints have something valid that people want. Who is truly a saint is a whole other question--I won't go there in this post. But I've watched people become transformed before my eyes--sometimes quickly, and sometimes over many years. It sure looks like something valid to me. MHO
Gitano no divino Registered User (11/11/02 1:05 pm) Reply	Re: The past is the past... Well, this really is the nub of the issue, isn´t it? Religion DOES WORK. Yes, it can transform lives for the better, and in a most impressive way. It reminds me of the Simpsons. I recently read that there is now a Ned Flanders Society in Britain, because many fans of the show there think that a world of Flanderses wouldn´t be so bad! And, depending on what you want in a world, that may well be true. The Christian conception of salvation has to do with rescuing the soul from eternal damnation. The Hinduistic conception is, I´ve always thought, more sophisticated. But it´s essentially the same idea, i.e., the soul needs to be saved from a dire fate (be it reincarnation or an unfavorable incarnation). Joe Campbell once compared religions to software. The software you use has to be compatible with the computer you have. That is, the religion you practice has to be compatible with your personality and the time and place in which you live. If you upgrade your computer (as many of us Walrusites have done), the old software may not work anymore. Take another example. Not many people are worshiping Zeus (Jupiter) anymore (except, perhaps, in West Hollywood). That was a "software" that simply couldn´t adapt in the face of the challenge posed by Christianity in the late Antique. Some religions adapt better to change than others (and Christianity strikes me as highly adaptable), but any religion that cannot adjust to changing circumstances isn´t going to last (this ought to be a warning to SRF, but they´re cluelessly stuck in the mudhole of believing in "eternal truth," which is by definition immutable, inflexible--and doomed). So, if the software of the Catholic cult of saints is compatible with your computer, then it can have a transforming effect. If not (as in my case, evidently), it won´t function. Others find Southern Baptism to be the perfect software (naturally, it is then incumbent on them to believe that it is the only software for every computer ever designed or made, regardless of the obvious evidence to the contrary). In any case, Campbell went on to say that once you find the right software, you have to stick with it. He himself was an experimentalist, however, and preferred to sample different softwares. As a consequence, he admitted, he would never become a saint. I, for one, am glad he didn´t. My only reservation is that I do not, cannot, find such personal transformations as evidence for the "truth" of the religion itself, or the bona fides of the saint (guru, maharishi, lama, etc., etc.) involved. It simply means that a particular belief system resonates with that person´s psyche and background. Their ability to believe something says as much or more about THEM than it does about the value or veracity of the belief system itself. If you´re a cynic like me and want to have some fun, read up on ancient Roman mystery religions, especially the Isis cult, though any of them will do (Demeter, Cybele, Mithras). The similarity of these cults to SRF (or other New Age religions) is spooky--and hilarious, in a pathetic kind of way. Then as now, people were seeking an escape from the unpleasantness of daily life in the otherworldliness of secret rites and initiations, which were intended to bestow special spiritual insights (through prayer, meditation, sex, drugs, or trances induced by music and dance). Belonging to such secret societies conferred on devotees a sense of being special, even superior, of having gotten a leg up on the rest of the world (this was especially appealing to people from the lower classes). And, then as now, leaders of such cults were deemed to have attained exalted states of spiritual awareness, and they were regarded with reverence and awe. This was all well and good, I suppose, but I´m not about to start praying to Isis, if you catch my drift. That old-time religion ain´t all it´s cracked up to be. Having spewed all that, I must state unequivocally that some of the finest, noblest, most intelligent, thoughtful people I have ever known were and are in SRF. They make Flanders look like Homer! This board is ample evidence of that fact. Regardless of how I may disagree with this or that person´s point of view, I´m repeatedly struck by the idealism, heartfelt sincerity, and high moral tone of the posts here. Walrus contributors went into SRF because they had high ideals and because they were willing to part company with the herd in search of something better. They have left SRF for exactly the same reasons. Those on this board who remain in SRF do so because it works for them (though I´m inclined to believe that in most cases these folks were already pretty special before they got into SRF). But I am sobered by the realization (at least I can claim some measure of realization in this lifetime!) that other people practicing and promoting this same religious software are among the most petty, venal, hypocritical, tyrannical, and deceitful folks you would ever not want to meet. And you know I am referring to folks who have devoted THEIR LIVES to pursuing "eternal verities" in the ashram. My advice: be careful not only which religious software you choose, but how you choose to use it. It seems increasingly obvious to me that monasticism is one of those religious practices (kinds of software) that is increasingly incompatible with the modern world. I would say it should be abolished (my Enlightenment-inspired anti-clericalism is showing), but that´s not necessary: it´s well on its way to extinction, or at least marginalization to the point of insignificance. (Someone here is bound to respond, "But what about the Dalai Lama?" For every Dalai Lama, there is a nest of culprits. If this is hard to process, I recommend you read the book Buddha from Brooklyn. That will disabuse you of any misconceptions you may have about Tibetan Buddhism. But there I go again, being negative . . . ) I´ve got a bad case of spiritual carpo-tunnel syndrome, so I'm gonna lay off the holiness computer for a while. I can´t find the right software anyway. Where is Bill Gates when you really need him? Edited by: Gitano no divino at: 11/12/02 12:04:38 pm
dd108 Registered User (11/11/02 1:33 pm) Reply	Re: The past is the past... Dear Gitano, Thank you for what feels to me like a very honest and thoughtful response to a fairly blunt and challenging question. I think I understand you to be saying that much of the path comes down to the individual--to their ability to find what works for them--the correct "software" to use your analogy. I couldn't agree more. And anyone, or any organization (SRF included of course), who promotes a "one size fits all" kind of spirituality will be yesterdays news before tomorrow. I think this also applies to the issue of renunciation, which, IMHO is essentially a lot more about attitude and direction of energy, and a lot less about outward appearance, clothing, title, etc... Hope you find your own best program.
Rosemarie7 Registered User (11/11/02 7:03 pm) Reply	Re: The past is the past... Ditto! And I also agree that the people at SRF are the nicest people I've ever met. The fellowship part is working..., but I just can't do the techniques, I tried, God knows I tried. I keep having nightmares of being assimilated by Hindu monsters... Anybody else have nightmares when they do the whole kriya routine? I do have a question though, what is IMHO?
soulcircle Registered User (11/12/02 3:03 am) Reply	in my hilarious opinion in my humble opinion in my hillbilly opinion in my half-baked orneriness IMHO
Amidala of Coruscant Registered User (3/24/03 8:19 pm) Reply	Re: Where to begin? That's what I'm doing too. I no longer go to Fullerton temple because they just give dirty looks and act politely asking silly questions like ARE YOU WORKING after I told them a hundred times that I don't want to talk only about how I earn my living so let's please talk about Master. Then if I want to talk about devotion or share other things besides my work, they say Hi Bye Gotta run! I agree that I can't go to meditations there anymore because it's so much gossip before and after. I'd rather people stop saying hi to me when I know they only ask me about work and nothing else. They never accept that I have another life too. I'd rather we come in silence and leave in silence since people there are only a bunch of ladies in high heels who talk about Good Housekeeping and Chicken Soup for the Soul type stuff. Even their lectures annoy me because they purposely AVOID talking about devotion and kriya and the important stuff just because they don't want to "scare away newcomers." They hide Master's beautiful big picture in a closet just because some newcomer might think Master is occult or something. They don't let me sit on the floor because I might look strange to a newcomer. All these silly things! I have felt a lot better since I just do my meditations at home. I really had difficulty going to Fullerton Temple and Br S was only nice to me until he saw that I was not popular with the lay disciples. Then he totally started to ignore me.

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