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xKanLBx Registered User (9/1/03 5:57 am) Reply	Saints of America (This message was left blank) Edited by: xKanLBx at: 2/26/04 12:04 pm
stermejo Registered User (9/1/03 12:46 pm) Reply	Re: Saints of America "India is filled with thousands of kriyaban saints..." Where is this information coming from? I know Americans love polls but I've never seen the results of this one:-) I do recall a "direct" disciple once saying that there are only 2,500 realized masters on the planet. No indication of where they all live. No poll cited there, either. Are you confusing Bro. Anandamoy's account of Indian devotion with sainthood and realization? Honestly, that's only a cultural artifact. "I have become friends with SRF members who have been devoteed for 20 years, 30 years, 40 years. Why are they not God Realized?" How do YOU know they are NOT realized? Do you have a Realization-O-meter? I understand the Gita gives a description of the realized man (Ch2, v54...). Are you using that measure? Perhaps to find an American saint, you need look no farther than within yourself.
KS Registered User (9/1/03 8:58 pm) Reply	Re: Saints of America By what measure do you determine sainthood? In the AY a “saint” could cause various fragrances to miraculously appear. However, his attitude left a lot to be desired. Was Sister Teresa, the Catholic saint in India, a real saint? She showed no amazing yogi powers but loved incredibly well and put others before herself. How about Daya Mata? There is no evidence that she even loves God and has certainly done NO charitable work or displayed silly yogic powers, yet many claim she is a saint. She writes good books (as far as we know) and has a lot of her subordinates tell us she is a saint but her actions tell us otherwise. For one thing, you miss the point. This planet we are on is not a place to produce many selfless beings let alone real saints. Even the Matas pass for saints on a low planet like this with so much ignorance. The Matas are like Moses golden calf and have replaced Master in the mind of the organization. To be realistic for a moment, to attain real God Realization takes many lifetimes, possibly 1000’s. This is not a simple goal. To pretend you can do breathing exercising or even real pranayama techniques and understand God in a few years is just silly. Some souls really are 3 years away from that goal, but they are not born on this planet. The lesson to learn is that the goal is difficult but worth while. The goal is so special and what do you know… God made it difficult. God did not setup this drama so that we live millions of lives then get Kriya and check out in three years. God unfortunately is enjoying the play and drags it out! But the road is full of joy as well as struggles. The travel, the struggles, the difficulties and successes are what life is all about. People who have some advanced degree of God Realization? My guess is 5 on the planet at this time. Maybe less. People who sincerely love God to the point of beginning to understand the true nature of God? Maybe 1000? One of them is the gentle senior monk in charge of the Hollywood Temple. Edited by: KS at: 9/1/03 9:03 pm
dawnrays Registered User (9/2/03 12:56 am) Reply	Re: Saints of America I think that most of the devotees, in and former srf, are alot more advanced and aware than they give themselves credit for. I wonder if most people in this country on this path are really appreciative enough of themselves. They have made the leap from thier Christian or Jewish upbringing by embracing a guru, meditation techniques and concepts like karma and reincarnation, which are foreign to our culture (and are only now becoming more accepted). Whether in or out of srf, these beliefs and techniques are very good in helping to bring about a new age and we are helping God and the Masters just by practicing and expressing them. It is indeed very good karma and I think in srf this wonderful karma is not appreciated or even focused on much! Sometimes I think Master just wants to say thank you for showing up and at least trying! I also know that within the organization, it is very challenging to really get to know people and that people tend to leave when they become more spiritually aware. It is actually easier, once you have all of your meditation tools, to make progress outside of the organization. The ones that stay for many, many years and become deeply involved, often tend to confuse their spiritual status with their status in the organization. I think a few are able (with much effort and character) to transcend this within the organization, but for most it appears to be a negative and disillusioning experience. Constrictions, stress and the heirarchal system (which is so degrading and marginalizing to the householder) is not conducive to spiritual progress and awareness, which should be measured by your increasing joy and love for others. I don't know about exact numbers and also people's definitions of realization tend to differ. I think as a whole we are making a psychic leap and that people in general are becoming more psychic and aware. True awareness and awakenings are gradual of course and it is really impossible to say where anybody else is. Your guru does eventually give you some past life awareness which I think helps in understanding where you've been and who you are. I also think that God from time to time (through miracles and happenings) exalts a few to show us exactly what a "saint" or a "Master" is supposed to be. This of course is entirely his decision and up to him, but most of the time these people seem to have varied but ordinary personalities, faults and challenges. I think what he might be trying to say is something like "be yourself". I think it helps to treat all (and this includes yourself) like a saint or a potential saint. This is God's play as KS has pointed out and much is kept hidden from even great saints and Masters in order that they may play their parts. I do think that earth, though difficult and a test, is a good place to progress spiritually precisely because it is so difficult. Much progress can be made here in a short time because of the circumstances. I also believe that many Masters are incarnation at this time to help with the transition of the new age. I agree with stermajo in that it helps to look within to yourself and try to see and understand the divinity there. I used to know an srf lay minister on the east coast and he and his wife were very advanced. They assured us once in a satsang that the devotees on this path at this time were very advanced and had all been with one or more of the srf Masters in previous lifetimes. This is a very difficult and karmic time to be in srf and with Master. It is a test. Please don't despair about the techniques (they work) or stress yourself out about "realization". This is a concept which means different things to different people. If you feel your consciousness is expanding with an ever increasing feeling of understanding of yourself and others (not just in a general sense, but in specific situations) then you are making good progress. However, if you are feeling constricted, I would not fault the techniques (it's ok to take breaks and not have a definite schedule, for some people this works better). It might be better to reexamine outside stresses and old beliefs which may be hindering you (the techniques tend to push you forward, often by bursting bubbles). dawnrays Edited by: dawnrays at: 9/2/03 5:34 am
dawnrays Registered User (9/3/03 8:55 pm) Reply	Re: Saints of America To feel an energy in another person, it has to correspond with an energy in yourself. I once was in a health food store and somebody asked me if I had ever read AY, out of the blue. He said he knew I was a devotee because he could see the energy coming out of my forehead. He could also see my Aura and told me it was colorful. Nobody else had ever noticed this, but he was very advanced spiritually and had been meditating for many years. Most saints live pretty ordinary and obscure lives and nobody notices they are "saints". Master knew many, many people and most of them did not realize he was a master. There is an obscure French saint named Germaine. She was very ordinary and even partially deformed. She died very young in her early twenties in the 16th century. She is called a saint now because miracles started occurring at her grave. When they exhumed her, she had not decayed. Had this not happened of course, nobody would have remembered her but God chose to single her out, even after her death. As you become more realized and aware, you will notice these vibes more. In srf, things are a little constrictive right now. But I've still always gotten good vibes from the meditations. The kriya creates a very high and healing energy in spite of the problems with the organization. dawnrays Edited by: dawnrays at: 9/3/03 9:20 pm
Siddharthas Kid Registered User (9/4/03 5:17 pm) Reply	Re: Saints of America Yogananada said simply: "A saint is a sinner who never gave up." Sayings of Paramhansa Yogananda page 6, end of 1st paragraph
Siddharthas Kid Registered User (9/5/03 4:25 pm) Reply	Re: Saints of America I wasn't attempting to be "clever".......I don't think that being a true saint has anything to do with any particular practice or fame or even metaphysical "miracles"......that's simply all I meant......I think there have been many saints today and in the past in all places in this world that are not known to the masses, they simply live their lives, doing what God wills them to.....that's all
Siddharthas Kid Registered User (9/5/03 4:34 pm) Reply	Re: Saints of America Here's some more food for thought: "Some persons think that unless a devotee undergoes great trials, he is not a saint. Others assert that a man of God-realization should be free from all suffering. The life of each master follows a certain unforseen pattern. St. Francis was afflicted with diseases; the fully emancipated Christ allowed himself to be crucified. Other great personages, such as St. Thomas Aquinas and Lahiri Mahasaya passed their days without tremendous stress or tragedy. Saints attain final salvation from backgrounds vastly different. True sages demonstate that, regardless of external conditions, they are able to reflect the Divine Image within them. They play whatever role God wills, whether or not it conforms to public opinion" Sayings of PY page 17
Siddharthas Kid Registered User (9/5/03 4:39 pm) Reply	Re: Saints of America The full paragraph of "a saint is a sinner who never gave up" is as follows: "I am too deeply emeshed in mistakes to make any spiritual progress, " a student confided sadly to Paramhansaji. "My bad habits are so strong that I am worn out by my efforts to fight them." "Shall you be better able to fight them tomarrow than today?" the Master asked. "Why add today's mistakes to yesterday's? You have to turn to God sometime, so isn't it better to do it now? Just give yourself to Him and say: 'Lord, naughty or good, I am Your child. You must take care of me.' If you keep on trying, you will improve. "A saint is a sinner who never gave up.' " Sayings of PY page 6
DefunctMonk Registered User (9/10/03 12:06 am) Reply	Re: Saints of America "Where are the saints in America?" I wouldn't give a damn if tomorrow the L.A. Times published an article, "Research Proves Without Doubt, America Bereft of Saints!" I no longer give a pig's ars*e about where all the saints are hanging out, and whether or not SRF's long-time kriya yogis are saints. I'm more concerned about whether I am manifesting unconditional love, in my thoughts and actions, towards those around me and towards myself. Looking for saints got me only one thing: focused on externals, looking for some outer example other than myself to do the grunt work. Now that I don't give a horse's patootie about that stuff, I'm happier than I've ever been and no longer feel like my spiritual progress and self-esteem hangs on being associated with "saintly" people.
soulcircle Registered User (9/10/03 12:18 am) Reply	t r u e monk, t r u e
Siddharthas Kid Registered User (9/10/03 9:24 am) Reply	Re: Saints of America Yep, I think that pretty much sums up how I feel, as well There's been a few people I've had the good fortune to have met, lived, worked with, etc., who faced great hardships with such grace and good will, irregardless of what they were going through, those people to me, are "saints".....I have always felt they left me with a great example of divinity in action, no matter what hardships they were facing They weren't famous They didn't make any big show of their faith or their personal "spiritual" practice(s), they simply lived their life in a manner that really reflected the ideals I feel I strive towards... What I perceived was a outward reflection of their inner Divinity Somewhere in the book of Mathew, JC says something like: "Call no one rabbi or teacher or father, for One is your Rabbi, Teacher, Father, He who is in heaven" I'd have to agree........it's good to have help in seeing different things/ways of this path(s), but ultimately, it's up to you and the Big Guy/Gal/Holy One, that's where one's enlightenment will come from, you and the Holy One Heheh, I'd think maybe "too many Saints & not enough devotees?" (ie "too many chiefs and not enough Indians?) Or how 'bout "too many saints spoil the soup?" (ie "too many cooks spoil the broth) Also makes me think of Willy Nelson singing "if you got the money, honey, I got the time" Hank Williams Jr. "there are some preachers on tv in a suit and a tie and a vest They want you to send your money to the Lord but they give you their address" Thanks for saying what I was thinking, only couldn't figure out the words, I'm a chronic pain patient and often have a hard time trying to say what I mean/feel....... See ya round like a chakra! Siddharthas Kid : )
xmonk Registered User (9/17/03 1:19 pm) Reply	Re: Saints of America You are absolutely correct when you say that it is up to us as individuals, to have a relationship with God. All religions, including Self-Realization Fellowship, are written over the same die. They all claim to be the one truth, they all claim to have someone "special", who has been ordained by God, to lead all the rest of us poor slobs out of our "sinful" condition, and to teach us the proper way to live. Well, look at the results of all of that. Christians, Muslims, Hindus, etc., etc., are all at each others' throats. The very ones who have taken the leadership of these groups, are the very ones who encourage the masses to do the despicable things that are happening in the world. They all contest that what they teach is inspired by God, and what the other one teaches is all wrong and sinful. God loves us all equally. There are no favorites. Therefore, how dare some man assume the position of being a "special incarnation" who is endowed with the authorization of God to lead us all back to Him? When it is, that a person takes the reins of his life and seeks a personal dialogue with his Maker, it will be at that time that he will finally feel free and happy. His life will become meaningful and his blessings will abound. Coming off free from organized religion is probably the most liberating step that anyone can take in this life. Thinking for oneself generates the greatest, most freeing and happy life that one can imagine. The key to all of this is in deciding to think for yourself. Try it.
redpurusha Registered User (9/18/03 7:00 am) Reply	Re: Saints of America While it's true that "God loves us equally... there are no favorites," the law of cause and effect is true as well. This means that if you do certain things right, acquire a massive amount of good karma, you will probably be born some day, as many of the world's God inspired prophets have been (i.e. Yogananda, Christ, Father Pio) in some special incarnation to inspire people back to God. While its also true that "thinking for oneself provides the most freeing and happy life imagined," you really can't teach yourself certain things, or you'll make a lot of unncessary mistakes, without the guidance of experts. Try teaching yourself how to fly, or build your own plane without anyone's help (example). The formula in finding competent teachers is not as complicated as people make it out to be: "A child of God (saint), bears witness to truth, by his life." There's just so few of these to go around, we have to use our intellegence and discrimination as best as we can.
etzchaim Registered User (9/18/03 8:41 am) Reply	Re: Saints of America One of the issues in idealizing a small group of people, almost all of whom have been 'mythologized', is that we create an artificial standard of 'perfection' that we can't possibly live up to, and neither did the 'perfect saints' that we have mythologized. To make matters worse, the ego then gets involved and our 'chosen saint' becomes 'better than' other peoples 'chosen saint's', and insecurity within us causes us to deride the paths, opinions, saints/sages, and methods, of those who are different from us, because our ego tells us that we are right and they are wrong, even if the difference is minor and has no effect whatsoever on how much progress can be made. If you want to employ the idea of the law of cause and effect, then only by working on YOURSELF will a person receive the 'good karma' to find their true teacher. Ultimately, there is no 'good karma' or 'bad karma', there is only 'karma'. Spiritual work does not involve having arguments about who's 'saint' is more superior than the others, who's path is better, and who's got the better technique. It has to do with how much effort each individual is putting into their self work, how they are treating others, how much they are honestly self introspecting and how much they are actually using the techniques they have for real Self growth and not ego aggrandizement or using them to rationalize what is essentially just running around in circles in their own projections, attachments and fears. A great individual can be a good role model, but in the end, it's only our own efforts that will bring us to enlightenment. Techniques are only techniques. There are many, many ways to Realization and most of the effort is not done by idealizing another person, it's done on a day to day basis, by working on YOURSELF - meditating, introspecting, working on how we relate to others, noticing that one is projecting - uncovering why and changing, following your path, going deeper, uncovering your true self from the layers of attachment, illusion and self protection. There's much more than this very incomplete list, but you get the idea. Once you are 'inspired', you move on to step one... Edited by: etzchaim at: 9/18/03 9:46 am
soulcircle Registered User (9/18/03 12:04 pm) Reply	redpurusha........did I want this Hi Charming Kind Guests, Redpurusha and All, Lower in this post, I refer to the chapter that motlom has a link to in this (complete) post "Guru Papers," from Core Issues, in Guru System Revisited, from 5/14/2002: *Quote:* I read an interesting book a while back that dealt with the subject of "true" gurus, called "The Guru Papers", by Joel Kramer and Diane Alstad. I didn't agree with everything in the book, but the sections on gurus completely changed my view of them. Has anyone else read this? One of the chapters is "Oneness, Enlightenment, and the Mystical Experience". www.mimbres.com/holp/holpath/kramer/oneness.htm It may anger some, but Kramer tends to play devil's advocate in most of the book. It takes an open, non-defensive mindset to get through a reading like this! Kramer, who is himself a yoga instructor, has a biography online. www.mimbres.com/holp/holpath/kramer/kramer8.htm#Joel%20Kramer ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ In having breezes of deep inner understanding, gentle hints only of one sweet unitive consciousness with All and the Divine Mother In Them I say the following, not in poetic free form but straight out, like simple good folk, one to another. We are not building an airplane, we are finding out what is deepest and truest within ourselves We are embracing, we know about embracing when we listen (follow) to our hearts. This post is about the "cosmic consciousness" of embracing, it's not for engineers building airplanes. I found a few things over my practice of SRF layered mytho-history devotion, and sought oneness with God and Guru: "Guru" was sooooooooo good! I learned to "love" Him sooo much. Yet another script was even more true in my case, and in everyone, pretty much, around me Love was going out..........of me I love this about the Guru I loved that about the Guru I was not like him, My God once I didn't meditate (understatement) Love was going OUT of me I loved (admired) my Guru. He stayed meditating all night (24 hours?) waiting with his companion to see Krishna, his companion faltered, according to the myto-history [I wasn't there, were you?] His companion faltered and only saw Krishna (this is from AY) because his Guru encouraged him to persist I learned that without my Guru I was (...........................), you fill in the space. Nothing is one of the multiple choices!! Well, in a nut shell.... .... guests and redpurusha, love was going out of me, for 30 years and out of uncounted devotees around me going out.......some of them for a lifetime, did i want this? I was left thinking I am not this, I am not that, I am far from like the Guru!!! I am a mediocre devotee at best ~~~~~~~~` well, in a long process that changed I started having some of that same love for myself, started seeing the good bad and ugly in me The love stayed within me, and in loving myself I didn't build an airplane, yet I "embraced" I found far past belief, I found what is beautiful not just in my inner most Divine Mother love nature, I found that I am love, that I love myself and only by not letting the love go go go and go out of me to some Guru, leaving me an empty shell of guilt, No self esteem, etc In Fact In fact, upon reflection I saw that the Guru had been a store. I had been the consumer, I went to the Guru Store to buy cosmic consciouness with the "coin" of love for Guru and the "coin" of devotion. So the love is in me, and a healthy amount goes "out" to Guru and others, but the love is in me and basically doesn't go and go and go out to a life before '52 to wherever PY is now, It swims in what is, as a fish that knows it is IN water, not seeking....."water" I love myself and know, the most sublime love and blissful oneness, beyond belief, as never-ending experience!! even now, amidst lust and playfulness and routine and world misery....I am love, breathe love and forgive all the shortcomings in myself, even as quick as in best friends around me including human Gurus I have self-esteem and forgiveness in myself, and this board is part of this loving! My inner sense of health and these things was confirmed by a chapter in a book, linked to by a person "motlom" in here With the friendship of all of you in here, not only I, but others are healthy and grateful to you redpurusha and guests and all : ) And we have built airplanes like the little paper ones in school, with wings of compassion and flight like shooting stars of magic mystery. as in this post's subject and in the midst of this post for 30 years love went out did I want this? Like the most beautiful self-listening, self loving eternal breathe of sweet lullabyes upon the bosom of following the fairies' gentleness and kindness of our hearts..... And we have built airplanes like the little paper ones in school, with wings of compassion and flight like shooting stars of magic mystery. we follow our hearts the love within circle cornflakescircle Edited by: soulcircle at: 9/18/03 12:48 pm
etzchaim Registered User (9/18/03 12:48 pm) Reply	Quotes from the Guru Papers www.leavingsiddhayoga.net...papers.htm ...the outdated paradigm of spiritual authority... (this is where the scary music plays)... AKA the "Kali Yuga Syndrome" Quote: "A number of gurus have made statements to the effect that disobedience or disrespect of the guru has...severe negative spiritual consequences...One even said that such disrespect can bring thousands of lifetimes of pain and suffering. Whatever else is involved, it should be obvious that fear and threats are being used here for control."(p.67) Edited by: etzchaim at: 9/18/03 12:53 pm
soulcircle Registered User (9/18/03 2:18 pm) Reply	25% our efforts? Guests and All, you see this may apply to some and not others, and sometimes more or less than others I am alive to tell you, you and I aren't formulas and the laws of 50% God and 25% Guru and 25% us aren't here to make us fit the mold, follow follow follow, recite recite recite ad in finitum we are here alive, a one of a kind, we are here, and the beauty of each unique nature is not in obedience LOL (tongue in cheek) heaven help me unique one of a kindcircle Edited by: soulcircle at: 9/18/03 2:19 pm
xmonk Registered User (9/18/03 3:34 pm) Reply	Re: Saints of America It is true that the "artificial standard" has been set up for these so-called holy men. That is so that no ordinary, mortal man could possibly take it into his mind to be an equal to them. As you mentioned, there is control involved here. Like all religions, SRF controls it's people through the intimidation of fear and guilt. Requiring unquestioning obedience is especially rampant within the ashram. As I have mentioned before, for one to grow past all the fall-de-rall of religion, he must decide to approach God on a personal level and create a dialogue with Him. Feeling guilt and fear, in dealing with God, is truly self defeating. To unquestioningly follow another human being is something from the dark, medieval past. When God created man, and put that object between his ears, it wasn't meant to be a hat rack. As I have said, we are all children of God, equally loved and we equally have the ability to address Him. Intermediaries are totally unnecessary and are generally used as a slick method to acquire monetary gain. Unfortunately, there are many, many people who just don't want to be bothered with thinking for themselves. They find it much easier to succumb to ritual and dogma. For those people, I feel truly sorry.
redpurusha Registered User (9/19/03 9:56 am) Reply	Re: Saints of America xmonk, I hear you on the whole danger of unquestionably following another human being, but I'm not so sure about which "intermediaries" you are referring to when you say they are totally unnecessary. I hope you are not going from one extreme of following SRF completely, to another of not taking any guidance from anyone (including Yogananda and other "saints.") in the name of thinking for oneself. Intermediaries could include holy scriputres, religious organizations like SRF, lesser teachers. But all of these are not on the same level of a Christ, or other men of self-realization. You can argue that Christ is a fable, or Yogananda is just another yogi with problems, but it is unaminously accepted by men and women of sound mind that these people have shown wisdom and have had experiences beyond this world, and can be classifed as holy men or saints (more so of Christ in the West). There are many people who worship Christ and even claim to have contact with him, outside of the Catholic Church. Similarly, there are many people who follow Yogananda and even claim to have contact with him, outside of SRF. Taking it a step further, there are people who worship God and have communted with Him outside any religious organizations. Now, I can't really prove that any one of these allegations is genuine, I am accepting them as true for argument's sake. While this proves that it is not necessary to be part of some particular religious group or church, or even in some rare cases no intermediaries are needed (other humans) to commune with God, it doesn't clearly show how they did it, or how long it took them. It is not very practical to hear of the success of some of these men and women, and not be able to learn anything from them. Is there a pattern? Are there any definite steps to take? Is there an art to it? or a science? Would it not be wise to ask these people, or learn about them, if we were to try to accomplish what they did as well? Get some guidance from these "experts"? "The blind cannot lead the blind, or they will both fall into a ditch." This teaching of Christ indirectly advices us to follow a leader who can see (one who is self-realized). Now, exmonk, in the ultimate sense (if I understood you correctly) you are right about not needing any intermmediary between you and God. However, if you accept the idea of men, including yourself, being able to realize their oneness with God, thus God becomes them or you, then you have to accept the idea that there are saints in which God is expressing Himself through them. Which means, when you follow these men, like Christ or Yogananda, you are in reality following God or Spirit. When you have a dialogue with them, you are in essence, having a dialogue with God (in human form). Or maybe I just misunderstood you and am arguing some imagined point. As for the analogies to flying or building a plane. That's exactly what it is, an analogy -it's the idea behind it. Yogananda used it to argue for the need of a guru, an "intermmediary", to help bring the student back to God. Finally, an argument can be made that everyone will ultimately find their way back to God regardless of help, but the reality is that some will make a lot more unncessary, painful wrongful turns than others. Now, with an updated and clear map in one's hand (or a true guru by one's side) the road back will be much easier and enjoyable.
etzchaim Registered User (9/19/03 12:29 pm) Reply	Re: Saints of America Do you believe yourself to be "spiritually blind", Redpurusha?

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