Another twist on denial - www.ezboard.com

SRF Walrus

Mt. Washington, Ca

Open discussions about SRF

SRF Walrus > Dealing with my doubts > Another twist on denial
Page 1 2

Author	Comment
Vulcan Unregistered User (1/3/02 4:30 pm)	Another twist on denial I have a theory regarding the reason so many members (and monastics!) refuse to consider the possibility that there might be serious problems at SRF, or that any of the senior leaders might not be a perfect channel for the will of God and guru. I invite comments and discussion. The reality is that, for most people, the SRF path is very hard, and there isn’t much one gets out of it. Even putting aside all the questions as to whether the Lessons are well-written, or writings have been over-edited, or some of the advice is just plain wrong: the fact remains that most people who sign up for the Lessons never even finish the first step. Those who stick with it are not living in bliss; they are slogging away at life and after 20 or 30 years, don’t really feel they’ve accomplished much. The organization itself, for many folks, becomes the surrogate for actual spiritual experience. The thinking goes something like this: “I may not be a good meditator, I may have a lot of bad habits, but at least I’m loyal; at least I’m serving; at least I’m a devoted disciple. I’ll be all right in the end.” Once one has transferred (projected?) the responsibility for one’s spiritual state to an external entity ( any external entity), one has to invest that entity with perfection. The problem so many people have is that to question SRF is to question their entire self-image. The transference goes something like this: I am a child of God. I can/want to know God. Paramahansa Yogananda and Kriya Yoga are the vehicles for me to do that. But, it’s taking a long time. I need to feel some sense of accomplishment or I’ll give up. What can I do? If I am involved with SRF, then at least I am serving and the guru will take care of me. So I’ll give my whole life to the organization, as proxy for God, and I’ll be saved.” So to question SRF, and find it wanting, would mean one’s whole life might have been wasted. Extend this thought to the leaders. While some of them may have the same issue, it also has a more frightening aspect. They would have to question their own behavior, based on actions that go back about 50 years. To sincerely introspect after all this time, and find one’s actions wanting, would be psychically devastating. Much easier to split off the “bad” parts, and project them into others. I have two purposes in posting this. First, to help people willing to introspect to see that they are not evil and are not disloyal in doing so regarding their experiences with the organization. Second, to help in understanding why some of your closest friends now seem to you to live in a different universe. This is a very hard, very scary thing to do. Not everyone can handle it.
peer345 Unregistered User (1/3/02 4:51 pm)	re:another twist on denial Vulcan, thanks for this post and indeed your others. I find these psychoanalytic readings incredibly helpful. They clarify these situations for me and make it easier to move on. again thanks, peer
Vulcan Unregistered User (1/3/02 7:27 pm)	Re: re Thanks for the feedback. I am working on another post in reply to responses on projective identification. Hope that all is helpful, too.
KS Unregistered User (1/3/02 8:42 pm)	Karma & Serving *Quote:* At least I am serving. I am guilty of this one. I felt I was making progress, but I certainly felt the “at least I am serving” angle. SRF even told us that serving was as good as meditating. I still feel serving is important, and fulfilling, but unfortunately no longer feel that serving SRF is helping even Master. In fact, serving SRF is probably helping them to harm people by lending credibility to their actions. I also see your point about serving being a substitution for other progress. A real trap. To give that up when everything else is so difficult is a really big deal. I know devotees who will talk about all the good karma associated with helping SRF and feel that they have something special coming to them in return. “Master has something special in mind for you after all your years of service!” I am ashamed that I used to count myself among those who believed that (and sometimes wish I still did). It is a simple way to think, and a lazy cop out. The path, and working on yourself, is HARD. Accumulating goodie points with a false sense of what karma is all about, is easy. Just earn some frequent yogi karma mileage points and make progress. I think the only goodie points are earned when you are not trying to earn them. Seeing that I am not disloyal for questioning the bad ladies and the core SRF organization was a bomb in my life. How much of it was a lie? Had I wasted all those years? Was I just a cult following fool? A serious test of faith. I have benefited from the discussions here and appreciate the time some of you have put into this conversation. The distance between old friends has been difficult.
witness Unregistered User (1/4/02 5:11 pm)	Kudos To Vulcan You may be one of only a handful of people in this country who's heard of Melanie Klein, much less Bion. I'm stunned, frankly, by your level of erudtion, and want to thank you for your eloquent effort to introduce board readers to powerful concepts like splitting and projection. It's good to see the dialogue moving from the entirely "spiritual," which so often seems to mean intellect-free (or intellect-antithetical, actually), to a somewhat more sophisticated mode. It seems to me that a lot of people are trying to liberate themselves from the ties that bind by using the very mindset that got them hornswoggled in the first place. Understandable, but painful to watch.
Vulcan Unregistered User (1/4/02 6:32 pm)	Re: Kudos Thanks, Witness, but I can't take too much credit. Within the field certainly Klein is not unknown, although Bion is still a mysterious figure to most. He never made it easy, either; his writing is so dense! But worth the effort, I believe. The object relations "school" has gained more currency in recent years, as the split within the psychoanalytic movement has begun to heal. One more example of how these fundamental human behaviors (splitting, projection) play out even among those who supposedly understand them. I agree with your point about the mode of dialogue. I would describe much of what masquerades as "spiritual" as pseudo-spiritual, or, to coin a word, spiribabble. For my money, Sri Yukteswar was the analyst supreme. He would allow no "slight lapse into absentmindedness." We are not talking about a situation that simply has different ways of looking at it. Nor is it a matter of different "paradigms" (a much abused word). I have heard this too often over the years. The rant goes something like this: "Oh, if you want to look at things that way, you can. But see how much you miss by not being positive, by not taking the spiritual approach. When you do that your whole view of everything changes." The problem with that rationalization is that there is too much obvious, observable behavior that is simply crazy. The understanding of the mind and emotions and psyche that is slowly growing is part of the ascending Yuga. It is fully consonant with and supportive of a spiritual sadhana. Certainly there are quacks and charlatans out there; "if ignoramuses misread the heavens, and see there a scrawl instead of a script, that is to be expected in this imperfect world. One should not dismiss the wisdom with the 'wise.'" In my experience, the people who resist any psychological explanations, or who detest the entire field, do so out of fear. It can be terrifying to uncover what is hidden within. "The human mind, bared to a centuried slime, is teeming with the repulsive life of countless world-delusions. Struggles of the battlefield pale into insignificance here, when man first contends with inner enemies! No mortal foes these, to be overcome by a harrowing array of might! Omnipresent, unresting, pursuing man even in sleep, subtly equipped with miasmic weapons, these soldiers of ignorant lusts seek to slay us all." Words spoken by a wandering sadhu to Master, but they could be taken from any good therapy text. Master called himself a psychologist. I have the poster right in front of me. He, and Sri Yukteswar, advocated using every method available. "It is only when a traveler has reached his goal that he is justified in discarding his maps. During the journey, he takes advantage of any convenient shortcut." Also, in Scientific Healing Affirmations, Master says: "If you can instantaneously heal your broken bones by mental power, do so; but it would be unwise to wait until you have attained that power." Clearly this is meant not only for that one situation, but for any situation of distress or illness. And it is often (usually, in my opinion) the psychological kinks that prevent us from progressing spiritually. I have quoted a lot here, to help make the point that this information and these analyses aren't bizarre, they aren't from the devil, and they don't contradict anything in Master's teaching; nor, for that matter, in any spiritual teaching. I suppose my subliminal hope is that someone up on the hill is sneaking peeks at this board and some of this may get through the concrete walls of denial to help.
witness Unregistered User (1/4/02 7:34 pm)	To Vulcan: They Bin There, Dun That The old bats up on the hill did experiment briefly with modern psychology. But just when a breath of fresh air started wafting through dusty corridors, they panicked and shut down the whole operation. (This seems to have been at least one of the factors that spurred the semi-mass exodus of monastics over the past year or so.) Then it was back to living the sad life of a "plastic monastic" for most of those who remained.
KS Registered User (1/5/02 11:05 am)	Actually Actually, after the turn around things got worse. The clamp down has set things back 20 years.
chuckle Unregistered User (1/5/02 2:33 pm)	Another twist on denial Vulcan--I agree with the others that these are wonderful posts of yours which will be very helpful in us all understanding what's going on. I'd like to add a couple of points which, I think, have a bearing on the dynamics you illustrate. The two factors which I think also come into play are distance and personality types. I mention these two factors because from my perspective some of your remarks may be more applicable to those devotees who are closer to and/or more involved with the Mt. Washington scene (or very involved in the L.A. Temples perhaps), and to those devotees whose personalities and backgrounds make them more susceptible (as it were) to the dynamics you discuss. You mentioned at the beginning of your post that the SRF path is hard and that devotees slog away for many years without much to show. I can see your point, but these remarks don't apply to all devotees. Yes, the SRF path is hard, but so is any spiritual path. Living a responsible and conscious life is hard, so we're no different from most people who choose to live consciously. And I would add that many devotees do see and feel that they have accomplished something with their spiritual efforts over the years, and you can see it reflected in their lives. Having said that, let me hasten to add that I agree with your main point that devotees can make the organization a surrogate and transfer ideals of perfection to it, thus identifying themselves with it completely. It then becomes very difficult to see faults because of the enormous cognitive dissonance the devotee will feel. But I think this process is far more likely to occur with devotees who can become more involved with the organization because they are physically closer to it (i.e. working at Mt. Washington or being very involved in Temples). Being over a thousand miles away from L.A., I have found reading the accounts of what's being going on to be mind-boggling, partially, of course, because I haven't been privy to what's going on but also because you don't see these dynamics playing out in the meditation groups (at least, I haven't--perhaps others have). This is largely because we don't operate the same way Mother Center does. We have a democratic system and Mother Center does not exert the same degree of control on the groups as it does on the Temples, so it's very difficult for these particular dynamics to come into play in the same way (that's not to say the meditation groups are perfect; we have our own problems to work out). The other factor that comes into play is personality and experience. Some personality types, as has been pointed out in various ways by a number of people on this board, are more rigid than others. When someone first suggested to me that there were SRF fundamentalists, I was sceptical. No longer. SRF is full of fundamentalists. And these are the kinds who will be loathe to admit there are any problems in SRF. As will those whose lives and education do not support the idea of questioning. Most of those who post on this board have realized through their life experience or their education the value--indeed, the vital necessity--of critiquing one's efforts and one's spiritual organization. Jack Kornfield, in "After the Ecstasy, the Laundry" writes: "To believe in a spiritual life with no shadow, where Mara or Maya never visits, is to imagine a sky where the sun always stays at noon." Alas, SRF has many members who refuse to acknowledge the shadow because we have misunderstood that positive thinking does not include denial of the negative. Moreover, we all would love a perfect world and some, perhaps because of their life experiences, are more likely or even desperate to invest the organization with a halo of perfection which they cannot imagine removing. I agree with what you have said in previous posts: those who are heavily involved need to physically and psychically remove themselves from the situation; they have to get away. And we all have the duty to responsibly and fearlessly take a look at the shadows that are lurking there. We may not be able to change the organization, but we can save ourselves. And who knows, if enough devotees refuse to play the game anymore, maybe those in charge at Mt. Washington will realize they have to change the rules (like others, I'm not holding my breath but I do feel an obligation to reflect the truth). After reading Ks's and Witness' responses about how the progress which was being made was completely shut down, I think to myself that the fear the leaders are experiencing must be getting rather extreme.
KS Registered User (1/5/02 4:01 pm)	Centers Because the centers and groups are open and run somewhat democratically, I don’t expect they will ever see the kinds of problems that exist at mother center. The problems in behavior and cruelty are not a result of Master’s teachings; they exist in spite of his teachings. A group run out in the sunshine can’t operate this way so the centers have a natural governor to correct this behavior. The bad ladies can only act this way because they act in secret. They have no mirror before them, they don’t honestly introspect, and they have rationalized away their conscience. Even the most casual observer, seeing what really goes on, sees these problems. They are in a fog, wholly deluding themselves. To all devotees: Stay out there in your centers and groups!
Vulcan Unregistered User (1/5/02 6:54 pm)	Reply to Chuckle Very good point, one about which I had been remiss. My remarks and analysis are definitely addressed to those who have been heavily involved directly with the leadership at Mount Washington. It cannot be stressed often enough that these issues are not problems with the path itself. My hope in some of my quoting was to illustrate that the behavior is dissonant to the very teachings it purports to support. Thanks for the clarification. I have in mind one more longer post regarding the notion of splitting, which I think might tie many of the ideas together for a lot of folks more simply. It's a large and complex framework so I hope to leave out a lot of the background and development, and just illustrate the concept and how it applies. If there's interest, I'm happy to take the time for that. And, to repeat again the reason for all this: My remarks are directed to those who have encountered bizarre behavior within the inner hierarchy of SRF. By understanding how this behavior has come about, I hope to assist you in overcoming and eliminating the feelings of depression, worthlessness, rage, anxiety, and so on.
peer345 Registered User (1/5/02 7:32 pm)	Re: Reply to Chuckle I am not so optimistic re centers away from LA. "Mother Center" exerts a very strong influence even on the outskirts in how the official face of SRF comes across. In the center I was in there was very little space for any dialogue or questions and this was because there was no advocacy of or precedent for this by "Mother Center". LA had and insisted on the last word on all behaviour and dialogues - only fundamentalists could thrive on this kind of structure and so they exist everywhere in SRF. People are always very nice and even democratic when they are not overtly threatened by any doubt or question - this niceness can then change suddenly. In our quite remote, geographically speaking, center there wass still very much the phenomenon of the insider, that person who had spent time at HV or Convocation for instance, who didn't hesitate to rule over others via the last word - all democratically of course!! I am rapidly coming to the conclusion that the teachings are at least as much to blame as the "mother center" culture - are they really so different, can they be so different? It seems to me that the teachings must be missing something, something that encourages independant and self motivated exploration widom/insight as they might say in Buddhism. Maybe it is this guru/avatar stuff - the great dispensation - too much unbalanced, unquestioning devotion, or is that loyalty? Maybe getting away means much more than keeping geographical distance to achieve some psychological peace. The more I stay away the more inadequate the core teaching seems - whatever that might be given the origin of the lessons. peer
Vulcan Unregistered User (1/5/02 11:02 pm)	Replya again I also should make clear that by no means do I think all SRF members have a terrible time with meditation, and have nothing to show for their efforts. I need to remind myself this is a public forum with many viewers. Thanks, Chuckle, for the points. The people who talk to me are largely damaged and so my efforts are to help them, and others like them. In response to Peer, it is certainly tempting--and not illogical--to question whether there is something within SRF as it's intended to be that might be amiss. My personal belief is that this is not so; I try to frequently quote from the SRF printed material itself to demonstrate this. Yogananda certainly required loyalty and obedience from those close disciples around him, but it is clear to me that it was with a very different emotional texture. To quote in this regard: "Saintliness is not dumbness. Divine perceptions are not incapacitating. The active expression of virtue gives rise to the keenest intelligence." As an aside, I have often thought that everything said by Sri Yukteswar should be printed in red, like Jesus' words are in many Bibles. I think you would find everything you ever need to know contained in those red words.
Been there Unregistered User (1/6/02 12:30 am)	To Vulcan I hope you do explore the concept of splitting for us. It would be very helpful.
In Recovery Unregistered User (1/6/02 12:47 am)	Vulcan Thanks, Vulcan, for all the great info. I'm finding it very helpful.
KS Registered User (1/6/02 7:47 am)	This is one of the best threads This is one of the best threads on the board. We all have pretty well documented the problem in the other sections, maybe it is time to fill this "Dealing with my Doubts" section with how we deal with what we now know. Don't be afraid to start new threads in this section with variations on these ideas.
yogigirl Registered User (1/6/02 9:10 am)	Re: This is one of the best threads I agree, this is a great thread. Thanks so much Vulcun, your insighs have been very helpful to me.
chuckle Unregistered User (1/6/02 3:58 pm)	Reply to Peer Peer, I think you're right that some people in the med. groups and centers can get into power trips. God knows, I've been guilty of that at times. But I don't think this has to be so. If a group truly is democratic, then everyone's viewpoint is at least respected and considered. Our group has even moved toward working through achieving consensus--this demands much more work, but is so much more rewarding because everyone gets fully validated. All this is being done with Center Dept.'s blessing. Moreover, one of the recent Center Bulletins had a big spread on communication and decision-making which was really good; I think there are some very progressive monks working in Center Dept. However, I am mindful of the fact that Br. Paul answers directly to the BOD. There are always going to be egos and issues to work out, but that's what growing up is all about. I do think that one of the signs of a healthy med. group or center is that people feel they have a right to voice their opinion without fear of being dismissed or not respected, AND that those in positions of responsibility actively encourage both positive and negative feedback with a view to making things better for everyone. With regard to your thoughts about the teachings being the problem, I'm not yet convinced that the teachings are the problem. Rather, I think it is more the way we've applied them. For psychological and historical reasons, we've developed this culture of the infallible president (and, by extension, the infallible BOD, the infallible Mother Center...) and at the same time prevented the input from other devotees, be they monastic or lay members. This, I think, is what's causing at least some of the trouble. You wrote that something was missing: "...something that encourages independant and self motivated exploration widom/insight as they might say in Buddhism." Yes! But it's the application of Master's teachings that has been wanting. Just today, for example, in the service reading on the Guru, Master says that devotees should be lamblike: obedient, loyal, meek...and then he goes on to say that we should have all these qualities of sheep but NOT their stupidity. This last bit often gets forgotten, it seems, and I think we have to fess up--at least many of the leaders have to fess up--that we've been at least a bit stupid in applying Master's teachings. Over and over again he asks us to use critical thinking, to think like scientists, to discuss, to work things out. And for years we've ignored this and allowed the leaders of SRF to do all our thinking for us. Finally, I am hopeful that this is going to stop, and we'll all start working as equals (thank you Walrus for being a part of this revolution!!). Many of us, in a number of ways, are just going to have to start asking questions, questioning directions we're given, and, with compassion, discrimination, and determination start demanding the respect our wisdom deserves (but we better be sure we know what we're doing!). Incidentally, your mention of the Buddhist community is very apt. They provide a wonderful model for us to emulate, and a number of Buddhist communities have worked through similar, serious problems that we in SRF are now facing. You may be familiar with Jack Kornfield's stuff. In his book, "After the Ecstasy, the Laundry" he has a chapter called "The Dirty Laundry" where he gives examples of how several spiritual communities dealt with serious problems; it's excellent stuff.
Crog Unregistered User (1/6/02 5:56 pm)	Agree I agree, it is NOT the teachings that are the problem. In the stories documented here on this board, is the behavior supported by the "teachings"? By the bible? Koran? I think not. There is a basic problem with knowing how to behave. pub78.ezboard.com/fsrfwalrusfrm30
peer345 Registered User (1/6/02 6:47 pm)	Re: Agree/reply to peer Thanks Chuckle for your in depth reply and Crog for your short to the point one! Much of what you say I agree with and yes I have read Kornfield on this and found it quite marvelous. I will though try and explain more of where I feel the teachings seem flawed to me. While there is mention of using critical intelligence how this might be employed is not explored in any great depth or indeed just what critical intelligence might in fact mean in this context. There is an approach in SRF of keeping experiences especially those of meditation private, that is to not talk of them. For me this is a serious problem because it encourages a lack of discussion, a kind of muted, strained silence. In Buddhist meditations experiences are always discussed and often in a group context. This is the beginning of mapping the shape of the meditating and becoming-spiritual mind. It also allows or encourages the beginning of a culture of discussion and critique to grow. I know there have been serious issues in some Buddhist communities but it seems at least this initial openness provides a point of expansiveness to come back to, hence Kornfield's books. A critical issue for me in all of this is the balancing of devotion with this kind of critically engaged mind. Maybe that is a large part of problem
KS Registered User (1/6/02 8:18 pm)	Discussing Experiences SRF's culture is not to discuss experiences. This does two things: 1- It hides the fact that most people never have any, which I don't think is a bad thing. Joy is the goal, not lights and sounds and weird stuff. 2- It keeps the bliss bunnys and their imaginations from making it seem like a circus.

Page 1 2

Email This To a Friend
Topic Control Image

Topic Commands

Click to receive email notification of replies

Click to stop receiving email notification of replies

jump to: