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RedsterLA
Registered User
(1/31/02 8:25 pm)
Reply 		Re: About monastic orders
Very well-said, Lobo...

When one sees an exodus of "employees," common sense management says that one needs to look INSIDE, rather than OUTSIDE for what is wrong.

Obviously, the house on the hill is not doing so, since there is a continual outward flow. Things are out of balance.

During a counseling session, Brother said to me when I was discussing the possibilities of monastic life: "You've already done that..." :D He also said that being on the "outside" as a "householder" was a much more difficult task, and that Guruji's work needed strong people on the outside to be good examples of God's love and Guruji's teachings.

And believe me, I know more than one person in counseling due to their situations "inside," so I don't think that staying is for everyone, by any means.

I simply hope that there will be some with the strength to help from the inside during these very trying times.

Lobo
Registered User
(1/31/02 9:15 pm)
Reply 		Re: About monastic orders
"A devotee who can call on God while living a householder's life is a hero indeed. God thinks: 'He is blessed indeed who prays to Me in the midst of his wordly duties. He is trying to find Me, overcoming a great obstacle--pushing away, as it were, a great huge block of stone weighting a ton. Such a man (woman too!) is a real hero.'"

Sri Ramakrishna

jaded
Unregistered User
(2/1/02 9:14 am)
Reply 		More responses
Quote:
I simply hope that there will be some with the strength to help from the inside during these very trying times.
Redster, I also saw a message from you in another thread saying something about the trouble or turmoil at present in SRF. I think you are missing the point. There is not some stressful external situation that is causing difficulties, to be worked through. It is not a matter of tremendous growth in the membership straining the resources of the organization, and therefore leading to miscommunication and difficulties, things to be worked out.

The fundamental culture of SRF is dysfunctional, and always has been. Of course, there are good, even saintly, people who are part of SRF. (A few of them are even monastics!) But that is irrelevant to the discussion. The board may appear negative to you, but its main point--to me, at least--is to make public the terrible reality of what SRF is. There is not the slightest acknowledgement--none, nada, zip--within SRF that there is any problem whatsoever of this nature. The kind of human interaction around issues you describe is absolutely impossible until there is at least the willingness to agree there is something to discuss. At present, anyone who brings up any issue, no matter how cordially and lovingly, is instantly branded a traitor and made into an unperson. If you don't thing so, give it a try.

I think someone else posted a similar thought: we're not dealing with the normal give and take of human interaction, with people's normal positive and negative qualities in play, and the need for love, patience, and understanding. It is a corrupt, evil regime that has hijacked our Guru's organization. You may not think so. My personal experience tells me it is true.

AumBoy
Registered User
(2/1/02 11:33 am)
Reply 		Re: More responses
Redster, I must concur with Jaded. With regard to the quote, some who have tried to "help from the inside" were asked to leave or encouraged to leave. Even the psychologist that was brought in to "help" was fired without being told. This is how SRF operates. This has been my experience. Decisions are made and you have to figure it out yourself. Imagine having a meeting in which you are a part at MW. You are a lay disciple and you meet with monastics. Even with all your good intentions, decisions would be made before the meeting by monastics only and the ones with which you meet may simple be told what to do and say. They wouldn't even be making decisions. This, too, has been my experience. I love SRF but in its present form it leaves a lot wanting. It is extremely difficult to understand without serving directly for a number of years. But it is also liberating for I came to understand that I could go directly to the source (Yogananda) because the channel (SRF) is clogged. Maybe some Liquid Plumbler would help.

One more thing: if you "help" from the outside, you'll end up being blacklisted.

Edited by: AumBoy at: 2/1/02 4:30:57 pm
Survivor
Unregistered User
(2/1/02 3:21 pm)
Reply 		Help Isn't Possible, Inside or Out
I spent years trying to help on the inside, and it took years for me to finally understand that not only was there nothing I could do, there is nothing anyone can do. They must do it for themselves, and, as is clear to anyone who has tried to help them, including the former monks' and nuns' Spiritual Life Committees, there is no hope of that. Not in this life. I understand that this is incomprehensible to many of you who haven't been there and tried to work with the bad ladies and the band of thieves around them, but Master teaches that we can learn from the experiences of others. In order to do so, it is necessary to first remove our own blinders and psychological filters, and allow the experiences of others to exist without doing exactly what the bad ladies do: condemning or denying all perceptions and experiences that are contrary to our own. The conditioning (brainwashing), so liberally provided by SRF, about what is good or bad, positive or negative, is neither universal nor absolute.

With so many good people getting hurt so deeply, and with so many credible people leaving that environment, there is an obvious message that cannot be ignored by anyone who sincerely wants to know the truth.

In one sense, integrity means accepting the whole, seeming good and seeming bad, seeing and understanding it for what it truly is, and letting truth and discrimination guide us to act accordingly, without judgment.

It seems that what so many people have such a problem with is accepting that those at the center of what the bad ladies claim is Master's organization can seem to be so good but in reality be so evil in their relationships with others, particularly those for whom they claim responsibility by virtue of their position.

KS
Registered User
(2/1/02 10:08 pm)
Reply 		Agree agree agree
I could not agree more. SRF does not want help, fears help, and does not see its own problems. It is impossible for someone to help them at this point. Many of us have seen person after person get involved to "save SRF" and been burned down. Consultants, volunteers, employees, monastics, professionals of all kinds, .......... boom and they are gone.

The greatest benefit from this Walrus board, I feel, is to keep the information flowing. Keep the pressure on them. Let the world know about the weird things they are doing. Only with this spotlight on their actions is there any hope.

Of course who is there to react to it? What people are left with the courage to act? I don't know of any. It may take a completely new generation.

X Insider
Unregistered User
(2/2/02 9:04 am)
Reply 		Does SRF survive?
Sure it does. It has plenty of money, plenty of real estate, and plenty of people who like monastics telling them what to feel, think, and do.

Yes, these monastics have been raised in a dysfunctional culture (no doubt many eased right in to this environment, having come from dysfunctional families.) Yes, the leadership is in total denial and with a characteristic smile gets rid of anyone who gets in its way. Yes, the dynamics written about by Vulcan and others are at play here. Yes, many of us have woken up and begun to recover our lives and our faith.

Would anyone like to make a little wager -- one we will not live to collect on? I wager that SRF survives in what is close to its present form for a least 100 years. It will simply become the fundamentalist alternative to those seeking a little Eastern style meditation with their Western religion. Those repelled by fundamentalism will go elsewhere: those who stay will be happy with what they have. Pretty simple really. Of course this is all quite disappointing to most of us who read this board. But SRF is not about to change. And those of us who have seen the unflattering truth are not about to surrender to another round of brainwashing.

Who can say what will happen further down the road? The Christian sects have been mutating and permutating for 2000 years now. And throughout all this, the love of Christ has been available to all who want it, regardless of the church affiliation that makes them feel most comfortable. Likewise, Guru's love is eternal. So despite my fatalism, I am at core an optimist. And while I would not hesitate to tell anyone my views on SRF, it is not my way to spin my wheels trying to change it.

KS
Registered User
(2/2/02 6:16 pm)
Reply 		Does SRF survive? Predictions!
OK, here is mine. Since the direct disciples are going to be gone, possibly in 5 years or less, a new batch of nuns will take over. They have been raised in the abusive environment and therefore will operate that way. With the way SRF has been molded it should be easy for them to keep control but people will no longer put up with it. The new breed will not be viewed as divine beings by the general membership and therefore the influence of the Mother Center will diminish.

Convocation will dry up and become something pretty small and the emphasis will move to the groups and centers. Lay members will carry forward Master’s words as examples and the number of monastics will drop to a minimal number. Mother Center will basically become a holding company maintaining the grounds.

X Insider
Unregistered User
(2/3/02 12:29 am)
Reply 		To KS
This is a point you and I disagree on , it seems. You say that fewer people will revere the monastics in times to come. I think that there are plenty of people who will revere them. These are the people who prefer not to think for themselves and there are plenty!! All they need to do is keep on wearing the ochre robe and talking the talk. The fundamentalists love that sort of thing and will pay money for it.

Balanceone
Registered User
(2/3/02 3:08 am)
Reply 		Right Insider
I think you are right, but the path to enlightment is not for those people. I'm sure that enlightenment is only to be found by walking on the path of fearlessness. Sheaps are always fearful. As we left the flock, we increased in fact our possibilities to attain, but obviously we have to continue being loyal to our goal.

KS
Registered User
(2/3/02 8:05 am)
Reply 		To XInsider
I agree that the world is full of sheep. However my feeling is that this new batch of bad ladies is not as good at faking it. DM really did spend a lot of time with Master and made some progress (before she turned to the dark side). She can call back those memories and turn on the charm which gives the illusion of saintlyness and provides the old born-again TV evangelist glow that people are drawn to.

The new batch of ladies are just crabby old power hungry women and not very impressive. Even bliss bunnies will get bored with them and switch channels to the next evangelist.

In Recovery
Unregistered User
(2/3/02 10:16 pm)
Reply 		Reply to Redster's Posts
Regarding Redster's words about monastics leaving the ashram:

"I simply hope that there will be some with the strength to help from the inside during these very trying times."

Perhaps you have not considered how much strength it took for all the exes to leave the ashram. In my books, these are people of great integrity and strength, who have chosen to leave an environment that was no longer serving their highest needs -- an environment that takes all the strength one has to escape from.

I have plenty of friends -- brave and strong friends -- who have chosen to remain in the ashram, so I'm not saying that only those who LEAVE the ashram are the ones practicing integrity. But I am saying that there are others in the ashram who, I believe, are scumbags and tyrants and cowards. And they are the ones who, in the name of "discipline," heap spiritual abuse on those who ARE trying to follow the call of Love.

Regarding your reference to St. Bernadette's endurance of intolerable treatment by her superior:

I admire how she endured mistreatment, but this is not what primarily makes a saint. Love for God is the only indispensible quality, and I believe that those who have left the ashram have done so because they heeded the call of love and not of fear. For me, it would not have been an act of strength to remain in the ashram and help SRF from the inside; it would have been an act of betrayal of my conscience.

cjmagorian
Unregistered User
(2/4/02 7:54 am)
Reply 		Conscious
Dear In Recovery,

"For me, it would not have been an act of strength to remain in the ashram and help SRF from the inside; it would have been an act of betrayal on my conscience."

I was a lay member and moved to Encinitis after joining SRF because that is where Yogananda walked. My first disappointment was that the people were not friendly. Being a very sociable person, this was hard to deal with, but I stayed, and I worked things out to the best of my ability and finally made a few aquaintances. A couple of years later I began hearing things about SRF and began checking them out. I left immediately, but then I was not sure if it was the right thing to do, so after a 3-6 months, I returned. I continued, as I had all along, to question monastics but got nowhere. Since I have said many things already in other places on this board, I will not repeat myself, I left because my CONSCIOUSNESS would not allow me to stay. I felt like a soul-divided (not that that is a right term), and I only felt better after leaving.

I was glad before I left, that I had taken part in helping serve in Tea Time, because I began making friends, and so when I left I knew that it had nothing to do with my not having friends. Not that that alone is not reason enoug to leave, because many people have shown up at SRF and have left due to a lack of friendliness. It is just that I had once been in a Buddhist sect, and the only reason I left them was because I wanted to know if there was a Personal God, and I had begun to read books on Hinduism and meditation and learned that you could experience God. But they felt that I had left because of the lack of fellowship, and that had put some doubt in my mind. (I realize that this is somewhat off the track, but since I mentioned the lack of friendliness in the beginning of this post, I didn't want anyone to get the wrong impression as to why I left.)

Still I was unsure of many things that I had heard about SRF, especially concerning the way the monastics were being treated. I knew from looking at my feelings while in meditation, that the biggest reason I had left was because of how they treated Yogananda's direct disciples. (I had called them all but only a few would speak up.) This led me to fear how others in the monastery were being treated. It didn't help when Bro. Keith was whisked away to Hidden Valley. I had all kinds of things going through my mind about how he was being treated. One day I called and asked him how he was doing, and he was very vague and only said, "I am still 100% SRF." I cringed, but I knew he was not telling me the truth, but I didn't know that they couldn't talk about these matters until I found this board. How tired I grew of hearing this "100% SRF" slogan whenever I questioned them. I finally began telling the nuns and monks that I was not "100% SRF, that I was only loyal to God and to Yogananda." I will give credit to Bro. Ramananda because when he quoted that slogan to me, and after I gave that reply, he said, "That's okay." Anyway, after finding this board, I learned that I was right about all of the things that I had heard, the things that I could not arrive at through other sources. I feel for those who stay when their heart tells them to leave. It must not be easy.

Newboy
Unregistered User
(2/5/02 12:38 pm)
Reply 		Treatment of Members/Monastics
KS,

Thank you for your many postings on this web site. I find your comments insightful. Because I am new to the Walrus, but not SRF, I must ask you two rather naive questions: Why don't monks (men, that is) have more decision-making power in SRF? It seems that Master had a board of men and women when he was alive. And they all had some input. Durga Mata's book certainly suggests gender balance when it came to leadership at MW. Will men ever gain more influence over the next few decades, or will SRF just be a convent that employs men? Also, did Master not say of Daya Mata: "Follow her example. I can work through her because she is receptive." I have read a similar quote in Kamala Silva's book, "The Flawless Mirror." Kamala was standing there when Master made that statement. As you must know, Kamala was not (reportedly) treated well for publishing that book, but she still included this praise of DM. You say that DM "spent a lot of time with Master and can turn on her charm" for the sake of public relations before returning to the "dark side." Forgive my naiveté, but these are strong words! Has DM simply stopped being receptive to Master's will?

Much of what I read on this web site is simply overwhelming; and yet, much of what I read I sensed long ago when I became a member of SRFas a teenager just out of high school!

soulcircle
Registered User
(5/16/02 12:27 am)
Reply 		Re: Treatment of Members/Monastics
Hi Newboy,

You ask has Ma stopped being receptive to PY.
Daya Mata has access to disciples and students, through letters, convo appearances, media, like videos, and could have more give and take with people. You think she or Vishwu might share their thoughts on criticisms. PY gave weekly classes that were open to public.
The "hugging saint" Ammachi comes to mind, when some of us think of communicating with people. She takes live questions in front of hundreds.
You can email me when you want the info on all that has come my way in terms of what Daya and Vishwu are receptive to. These two and those around them are receptive to fear. F! E! A! R!
As another site yogananda-dif reminds us, decisions are made based on fear or love. PY's love is best found in your heart.
In the behind the scenes, and in all-important feelings, thoughts and acts in the ashram the higher the postion the more the mata or Vishwu are receptive to fear.
Try this experiment and watch how quickly you become a non-person to the board of directors.
Ask them any question you might have, or several.
Ask them for a financial statement, since they are a non-profit organization. Ask them why they became such mean people, as exemplified in their unwillingness to communicate with Walri, or in their unwillingness to open a format for discussion, or in their spending significant per cent of their energies and time on legal battles. Kind people listen and respond thoughtfully. Others can be considered dark, shutting students and disciples out, and only keeping their own counsel.
Ask them to publish a compassionate and informative article in the magazine about the exodus from the monastic order.
Write or call a couple times, and "the love they have" for every one of PY's students and disciples will vanish in the space of a breath.
Particularly, when you call or write asking them to acknowledge the loss of the spiritual life committees and the exodus and to share the options for healing and reconciliation, the conversation is over.

Be in touch, you can email me 27/7. In '67 I read the AY, 31 years later, when I "talked" with Satya and Vishwu at mother center about a problem and a change in "the work," I was encouraged to go home, to leave mother center.

Asked them anything you want.

I ask you a question or two. Why am I left after 31 years knowing that mother center is not "my spiritual home," and that ma and vishwu fearing fear...whereas fear, feared their guru...is maybe the reason mother center is not "my spiritual home," you think? Maybe knowing vishnu fears me causes me to give him a wide berth and pray for those who he abuses with his power, you think? A person living in fear and who has vast power is dangerous, so ....

be careful about writing or calling,..

let's find our oneness with our guru in our new friendship and in ourselves and small soulcircles of healing, acknowledging pain and offering support

And always i join you in your prayers for us all, and that kindness may guide us more and more in this world,

soulcircle

crogman1
Registered User
(5/16/02 5:53 am)
Reply 		Re: Treatment of Members/Monastics
Fear fear fear. This is a constant theme of many messages here. That realization of SRF's true nature is so common. If you are or have been an insider you already know this. If you have never been close it must seem strange and you probably don't believe it.

We make assumptions about what kind of people the leaders of SRF must be. We assume they practice the teachings, meditate, feel love, are trying to improve themselves and assume they know they are just the organizational managers of SRF and not the guru. Guess what?

I still can not figure out where their minds must really be to feel so much fear and anger toward the members and their fellow monastics. What does that say about them? How do they see their role? I see many messages here about it but I still don't quite understand it.

CrashLanded
Registered User
(7/10/03 1:40 pm)
Reply 		Re: About monastic orders
This is such a great thread! I can't take it all in yet, I don't have as much time as I wish...

My comments to Raja B., Sackcloth, Psycuppe. Sorry for mixing up.

re: emoti.abuse/training.
Who can tell us when one is enlightened? Even assuming one is, does that person has the ability to lead others toward the same goal? Many enlight. historical saints never trained anyone else. Only two of SRi Yukt. disciple apparently reached the goal and, at least for how Mukunda goes, he was a liberated being lifetimes before.
My understanding of an enligh.being is somewhat different now, than most SRFers. I don't believe even Master knew everything about everyone. He made too many misjudgments in his life for that to be true. Also, in some traditions, Masters can only point out when one is arrived and confirm: "That 's IT". Nobody can give God, a devotee can work toward IT but God let's itself in by its own volition or grace, regardless of the effort. Master could give someone a samadhi, some bliss, some experiences, some encouragment, but could never give God. In some traditions, even Bliss is below God, a last entrapment! God being beyond everything.

Most of us in SRF were spiritual SUDRAS, looking up at the miracle, at the saint, at the bliss of medit. In this situation it all boils down to TRUSTING someone else. Stories of saints for centuries shown blind, puppy-like trust, probably because kaly yuga minds could't grasp anything else. But now we are using the same model for the new Dwapara age, when "mutual understanding and love" should prevail. Nowdays a disciple needs an explanation, to know WHY, HOW, WHAT to EXPECT, etc.
I consider my leaving the monastic order as a painful birthing into the next spiritual cast (see Raja B.s post). I have learned that I definitely will never abdicate my deepest will to anyone else, especially an institution! How foolish that was!

Also, if someone's training has not produced verifiable results into one's life, it is worlthless, regardless if it is in an ashram, in married or single life, etc. At the end, it doesn't matter where or with whom we are, as long as we feel we are doing some progress. (Believe me, the Ashram is a great place to sooth one's ego! I saw too many examples). Discrimination, and especially self-honesty, are paramount in this evaluation; or one can easily fall into the trap of letting others, or one's small self, tell you where you stand, and end up in endless discipline, training, self delusion, group delusions, etc. just for the sake of it, just as an end in itself.
Spiritual progress happens anywhere, anytime, as long as one is pursuing it; the same concept goes for life, there is no 'spiritual life', in a general sense, it all IS spiritual !

2. The idea of killing the ego is not workable for me, even in the Gita is wasn't really feasable, the ego had to agree to its own demise, BUT in the sense (my interpretation) of accepting to work for Spirit, and to relinquish some of his unhealthy habits and sensual stubborness. Without an ego, life on this planet is impossible. If one kills the ego, one cannot operate and exists, not even be able to pursue a sadhana. (I hope it doesn't seem too contradictory). Perhaps the best idea I can offer are the 'stories' of enlight.beings who, to be able to stay on this planet, have to cling to something, they use the ego to operate, to have likes and dislikes, but they are not bound by its determinations. In short, we need it to do anything in this world. Masters who transcend the ego, life, etc, who escape in astral worlds, and so on..... have huge problems once they come back down, into the streem of life. They haven't integrated spirit with their ego and their experience of God with life on this planet. This should count for the many 'masters' who failed so miserably, yet were originally recognized by other masters as liberated beings.

Most SRFers see Yoganandaji as totally perfect, his teachings totally pure, safe, and perfect like him. But there is always more to a sadhana that any system one, even an avatar, can come up with to find God. Thas is why it is Self-Realization!

Lobo
Registered User
(7/10/03 8:45 pm)
Reply 		Re: About monastic orders
Crash Landed,

Great post! Especially the part about the necessity of the ego in this world. I used to have a discussion with someone involved in Eastern pursuits who was a also a Jungian trained psychologist. She said that the chant of PY's where it goes, "I am the bubble, make me the Sea," was not only not possible but a dangerous idea.

I, in my infinite wisdom, disagreed. The ego, I assured her, was just not real, and when one attained Self-realization one's life and work on this plane was effortless fun. It was a form of child's play, having met the Inventor and Become.

Now, I'm not so sure. This guy, Andrew Cohen, who claims to have become enlightened and who produces the magazine, What is Enlightenment, quotes another controversial guru, Adi-da, as saying, "Dead gurus don't kick ass!" Meaning, of course, without having a guru's enlightened consciousness to deal with on a regular basis one can fool himself that he's growing spiritually, when in truth, he's a insufferable ass.

My opinion is when PY ruled the roost at 3008 San Rafael things were relatively right, as no one was as wise or Self-realized, and a few became because of him. So he was rightfully respected, even worshipped, as his greatness and spiritual power were so evident. But on the disciple's side, there were very few who could stand to be around him. He was a constant challenge to everything they thought, believed, and had heretofore thought right. Now they knew they were lacking, sorely so. And those who stayed, accepted that, and many became spiritually advanced. Those who couldn't, found ways to find other interests.

Kriyananda writes that toward the end of PY's life he had trouble staying in "one body." He said that it was as difficult for him to stay in one body as it was for those not realized to become free of one. He even had trouble walking, leaning on others, so that he wouldn't fall down from not being totally here.

So that would evidently make it very difficult to run a world-wide spiritual organization. Accordingly, he was out in the desert working on the Gita, and Daya and others were doing the running. Maybe he had cut all attachments and ties at that point, preparing for mahasamadhi, and had decided to just let it all hang out, without having to present such a example of industriousness and control to the disciples. My feeling is that is probably how great Masters live in India, like Anandamoyi Ma and Ramakrishna; and it is understood and accepted by their disciples. But here PY had to be an American, better than an American, both an American and an Indian/Hindu, so the whole, "I'm in Cosmic Consciousness and can't be bothered to come down to that stuffy old body and play with you right now," vibe would've been, to say the least, frowned upon.

And if he'd not held back, he wouldn't have accomplished as much in the world as he did. So I can see that it is just those very few great Ones who even reach the stage where not having an ego is even a possibility. Very rare.

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