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Raja Begum
Unregistered User
(12/23/01 4:10 pm)
Reply 		Renouncing a Limited Point of View -- The only discipline
In the Vedas, the only renunciation possible is that of renouncing a limited point of view. All other forms of renunciation are games the soul plays on itself.

In "The Holy Science" Sri Yuktweswar explains that man must come to a "clean state void of all external ideas" before he can enter into the creation of Light (Janaloka). Read the following quote of our Paramguru:

[quote{"In this state man comprehends himself as nothing but a mere ephemeral idea resting on a fragment of the universal Holy Spirit of God, the Eternal Father, and understanding the real worship, he sacrifices his self there at this Holy Spirit, the altar of God; that is, abandoning the vain idea of his separate existence, he becomes "dead" or dissolved in the universal Holy Spirit; and thus reachs Tapaloka, the region of the Holy Ghost.

In this manner, being one and the same with the universal Holy Spirit of God, man becomes unified with the Eternal Father Himself, and so comes to Satyaloka, in which he comprehends that all this creation is substantially nothing but a mere idea-play of his own nature, and that nothing in the universe exists besides his own Self."{/quote}

Interesting how SY describes the final state as "one integral whole." This is an important clue in understanding our problems in SRF -- it is not a matter of who's right and who's wrong, it is a matter of integration. Sri Yukteswar has already claimed that there is only one self in this universe. Therefore, in setting themselves in opposition to other people and points of view, the SRF leadership is really just putting themselves in an antagonistic position to their own rejected selves. That such an understanding has not permeated their imaginations leads me to conclude that they have a very limited form of realization.

We've been having a very interesting discussion on discipline and obedience on the spiritual path. SY makes it very clear that there is only one "real worship." He uses three different descriptions of the process:

1) abandoning the vain idea of one's separate existence
2) becoming "dead" in the universal Holy Spirit
3) becoming dissolved in the universal Holy Spirit.

It is the second one that sounds similar to what some people refer to as "killing" the ego. Master says that the ego is sensualized soul. It seems to me that you cannot really kill the ego (if its really the soul). All you can do is de-sensualize it. Since everything is an idea play, you can't really murder anything except concepts. So the question we must ask is whether harsh training and abuse really destroy external concepts and leave the ego standing alone, looking nowhere but to its origins in spirit.

This seems like a tricky business. If an ascetic makes his life into a desert, meeting frustration with fortitude and all forms of sensuality with indifference, does he attain freedom if he thinks, "I am mastering my appetites..I am undergoing a trial and enduring this suffering"? It seems to me, he is merely substituting one set of external ideas for another. If he puts himself in apposition to his human nature, he is blocked down the line when it comes time to integrate his life with all lives. So one must be a supreme artist to make asceticism achieve its true aim.

But there is an entirely different way of viewing the problem. One could simply cultivate his heart's natural love (shraddha) for people and things and continue to expand the circle of belongingness until no one and nothing is excluded. That seems like anti-ascetic super- indulgence...or is it?

In his sweet uncoventional wit and wisdom, our Guru exclaims....

Quote:
None I behold as stranger, I rejoice to know all with God-given pure feeling of human attachment. I care not how many holy men howl, "Be attached to no one!" I am attached to all. Nonattachment is necessary if one's love encompasses only one or a few, excluding all others. Never could my attachment be exclusive, omitting any from my circle of love!


Here our guru has applied no other form of discipline except the willingness to keep his love from narrowing on just a few points in space. All narrow dogmas and beliefs are dissolved. There is nothing in his higher imagination which prevents him from feeling the truth of the existence of a greater Self.

This is what the Vedas mean by renouncing a limited point of view.

Vulcan
Unregistered User
(12/23/01 5:02 pm)
Reply 		Projective identification
Interesting thoughts. I don't yet know how to do the quoting, but I can cut and paste:

"Therefore, in setting themselves in opposition to other people and points of view, the SRF leadership is really just putting themselves in an antagonistic position to their own rejected selves. That such an understanding has not permeated their imaginations leads me to conclude that they have a very limited form of realization."

Ideal example of projective identification. I posted some details about this psychological phenomenon under Core Issues. I know there's a way to put a link to other messages in here, but don't know how yet.

I welcome any interest in a further expanation/exploration of the deeper psychology behind the SRF organization's dysfunction. Since all organizational behavior is merely a collection of individual behaviors, it stems from the individuals involved. Understanding the roots of their behavior can be very helpful to the healing and restorative process necessary to those who have been damaged by it.

chuckle
Unregistered User
(12/24/01 9:27 pm)
Reply 		Renouncing a limited point of view
A wonderful post, Raja! Very thoughtful. It makes us realize how huge, how wonderful, how limitless is our guru's love, and that we are obliged to step outside the confines our smallishness into the vastness of his embrace. A most Merry Christmas to you!

Should Free
Registered User
(12/25/01 1:07 am)
Reply
ezSupporter
 Re: Renouncing a limited point of view
Dear Chukle

How you thought that in fact more than talking about the greatness of the Guru, is pointing to your own undiscovered greatness? Too much guruland for me.

Kevin
Registered User
(12/27/01 8:27 am)
Reply 		Going down with the ship!
A friend of mine sent me this email, it was between him (an ex-monastic), and another SRF devotee who doesn't like the criticism of Walrus, who loves Ma, and wants to go down with the ship SRF)if necessary, I thought to share it:

" Hi ....:

>I enjoy the Walrus and so glad they are open and critical--to me it isn't a matter of people not being able to say what they really feel---people should be able to say things, no matter how critical they are. Like in the Autobiography---Sri Yukteswar listened carefully to what people said---any criticism---to see if it was true. That is the important part---too be open-minded enough to see if it was true and think for yourself. He didn't say "Oh I am so important, a Jnani, an avatar"---he even listened to a little child---because he knew that the Divine can speak through anyone. It is when you fear that the criticism may be true that you don't want to hear it---like the Communist state or like the SRF directors---fear it may be true---so you sue anyone who says anything----which is why everyone has to stay anonymous on the Walrus. Even in the ashram years ago I read books that were critical of Master--I wanted to be open minded--you don't have to agree to everything you read and hear---but you should have the right to judge on your own and not fear any truth. Otherwise you live in your own little fantasy world of illusion and believe the things you want to believe because it is comfortable, and not because it is true.
>
>As far as you going down with the ship---there is no ship to go down to begin with. No outer organization can take you to the infinite---only your Self can take you to your Self or God. All it can do is aid your mind to attempt the journey within---but as all organizations is part of duality---it is an illusion as well.
Loving Ma or not loving Ma doesn't make any difference as far as self-realization. It is just a mental thing the personality does for comfort. Just as we love our family and friends. It is good that we do so, but it won't make us self-realized---it takes more than that.
>If we get too attached to the form, we lose the real important things that are inside in consciousness.
>
>There is a philosophy in India regarding the Guru-disciple relationship--and that is to kill the Guru. What it means is that in time as a disciple advances on the path in order to grow and advance, some time in their sadhana they get to be like the guru---and hence
go on their own. In a sense they have surpassed the guru and don't need the guru and becomes the guru---so they have killed the guru and don't need that outer form any more. To be critical of a guru after time is a good sign---and any guru who is from God would
>welcome this---because they know that the disciple finally sees that what the outer guru does or doesn't do is just an illusion in duality and that the real value in sadhana is the inner transformation of consciousness which disregards the outer lila or maya dream world
>and stays anchored in the Infinite Consciousness which permeates everything.
>
>Just as any child has to grow up, become a teenager, a little rebellious, then an adult----so all disciples must do the same. And the growth is painful sometimes and it may be more comfortable as a child---but we must grow some time or other ---we really have little choice in the matter---the guru has to drag us sometimes kicking and
>screaming to the Infinite. SRF is perfect, without SRF in existence is perfect---the whole universe is perfect--it is the perceiver that creates any reality at all.
>
>B....>

oldtimer
Unregistered User
(12/27/01 9:48 am)
Reply 		Going down with the ship?
What a metaphor! How illustrative that this "loyal" person (read: clueless) themselves would use this image. I'm sure our resident psychologists could do a better job than me of analyzing where such a warped state of mind might come from.

My take is that all these people, including the SRF leadership-- especially the SRF leadership--are suffering from spiritual cowardice. Rather than doing the tough work of introspection and development and change, they cling to an outer authority as their "sole refuge." Even when they know it's wrong, they twist that knowledge and use it as a prop to feel even more self-righteous: See, even when it's tough, I stick with it. I go down with the ship. I'm loyal. I'll make it.

Sorry, folks, that's the easy way out, and it's not even a way out. The same things will keep coming around, again and again, until you face them and overcome them.

I have a different take on why a lot of these disciples came with Master, when they did. The party line is that they came to help him with his work. My belief is that they came to try, yet again, to overcome these character flaws that are holding them back. I think they are, in fact, advanced souls, but they have some specific ego problems that can only be worked out from positions of power. So Master keeps putting them in that kind of position until they get it. Unfortunately, for them and for us, they didn't get it this time.

Edited by: srfwalrus at: 2/8/02 6:54:02 am
Raja Begum
Unregistered User
(12/27/01 11:03 am)
Reply 		No sinking ships -- Raise your Banners high!!
Somewhere in the murky past of other lives, when we were in another religion, these same individuals may have been the ones who led us to disown our own feelings and thoughts under the pretense of spiritual discipline. The fallout, of course, is that they have developed these specific ego problems you mentioned and we became disempowered and infantilized by blindly following them. Surely we followed many sinking ships to the lonely graveyard at the bottom of the sea. But that's not a befitting finale for one who is an ambassador of the Infinite Life!!

Our job now is to claim back those parts of ourselves we gave away; doing this, we undo their negative influence on us. Part of their "education" is what happens to them as we undergo this process.

Think of how these individuals have faciliated your own infantilization. Perhaps they didn't intend to do it consciously. This process began long ago before this life so that everybody is falling unconsiously into certain roles that feel natural but are ultimately dysfunctional. What our guru would call samskaras. But who will stop the pattern from continuing? So we must assert the truth as we feel it from within. There will be no sinking ships forevermore, only the raising of banners!!!

NewBoy
Unregistered User
(2/8/02 9:02 am)
Reply 		Speaking of Sinking Ships and letting go
This thread jogged my memory of a very vivid dream I had years ago when I left Roy Eugene Davis's center (CSA). Although I knew it was time for me to leave CSA, I still felt some ambivalence and, I suppose, guilt.

Shortly before my last week there I dreamnt that I was on board a ship in a stormy sea that was clearly sinking. Rather than go down with it, I jumped ship into the stormy waters and made it to shore. No sooner did I get to shore, however, than I was arrested for jumping ship. [scene shifts]. Next thing I know I'm in an office being interrogated by a very stern looking naval officer. I felt quite nervous and guilty. Just as I thought I'd be thrown in the brig, the door swinged open and there was Master flanked by two naval guards, and under arrest too! I stared in wonder as he and the two guards proceeded to do a little dance worthy of Gene Kelley! I thought to myself, "Master! This is serious. Don't clown around." Well, he sat down next to me and looked back at the stern naval officer as he was being interrogated. Master, too, looked very serious, but from time to time he would sneak a glance in my direction and wink with such joy and laughter in his eyes! As I slowly awoke from this dream, I felt such intense relief and love in my heart for Master. I felt that Master or my higher self posing as Master was trying to reassure me that the ship was never mine to save, and their is a time to bail out in order to live.

Thanks for reminding me of that dream!

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