Faye and the role of men inside SRF - questions

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SRF Walrus > Treatment of Members/Monastics > Faye and the role of men inside SRF - questions
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KS Registered User (2/5/02 10:00 pm) Reply	Faye and the role of men inside SRF - questions The following questions from “Newboy” were at the end of a long thread. I invite comments on my comments on his questions about other comments on this board. *Quote:* A question from NewBoy’s post in this thread: pub78.ezboard.com/fsrfwal...mp;stop=59 Why don't monks (men in general) have more decision-making power in SRF? It seems that Master had a board of men and women when he was alive. And they all had some input. Durga Mata's book certainly suggests gender balance when it came to leadership at MW. Will men ever gain more influence over the next few decades, or will SRF just be a convent that employs men? The culture of control and fear goes back to the 50’s, maybe even the 40’s. Men were in charge of SRF and made up a good bit of the board of directors in the very early days. The change took place after Rajarsi passed away as you probably know. Those we call the “bad ladies” took over the board and tried to guide the work with fear of failure in their hearts. Over time this drove them further and further to the dark side where they mistrusted all around them. The yogananda-dif.org/ website has more details about the early days. As they isolated themselves more and more the nun/monk split became easy. Add to that a few who desired more power to take advantage of the split, and things naturally drifted toward a mistrust of even the older male disciples. Can you imagine someone not trusting Bhaktananda? Bimalananda? Due to the negative environment in the ashram on the nun’s side few women have survived the last 20 years who have qualities that would lead us to hope they will emerge true spiritual leaders of SRF. If SRF is to matter much in the future the leadership will have to come from the monk’s side. There are a few who could provide it. I won’t hold my breath. The ladies will crush them as soon as they begin to show themselves. *Quote:* Another question from NewBoy’s post in this thread: pub78.ezboard.com/fsrfwal...mp;stop=59 Also, did Master not say of Daya Mata: "Follow her example. I can work through her because she is receptive." I have read a similar quote in Kamala Silva's book, "The Flawless Mirror." Kamala was standing there when Master made that statement. As you must know, Kamala was not (reportedly) treated well for publishing that book, but she still included this praise of DM. You say that DM "spent a lot of time with Master and can turn on her charm" for the sake of public relations before returning to the "dark side." Forgive my naiveté, but these are strong words! Has DM simply stopped being receptive to Master's will? To be honest I don’t know if Master said that. See the messages here on the Walrus about all the various urban legends that surround SRF. If you apply logic to the quote you might read it to say follow her EXAMPLE as it was in 1946, not what she would become. Or that she was receptive at that point in time? I would rather not go by what someone MAY have said about her 50 years ago, I prefer to look at her actions today. They reveal themselves in how they act toward others. I agree these are strong words. Most devotees, myself included, assumed that the people running SRF would be like the saints we read about in the Autobiography. The idea that they might not be is a shock and because we assume that reflects on Master many resist taking a hard look. While like most I have not spent much personal time with Daya Mata there is plenty of evidence about what type of person she really is. We know some things that she does, and some things she doesn’t. What can we see to draw some conclusions? Isolation – what does that tell us? What is the isolation all about? For 30 years Daya Mata has only seen rock stars and large donors. Most of the monastics rarely see her. Why is that? Why would walking around with the people at a Convocation Open House be so out of the question? Why the full (and armed) escorts at Convocation? Why is it that they keep her so isolated from employees and monastics? Why not sit with the kids at youth program or give a Sunday service once in a while? Lead a Friday night meditation at a Temple,? Yet they sell her books and picture. I draw a negative conclusion from it. Judge by those around her We might not get to meet Daya Mata, but we do get to meet many of the people she keeps around her and trusts. This board has many stories of these bad ladies. This is the most damning thing of all. If you are not around the Mother Center you will have no experience of it, but you can read many of the stories here on the Walrus. She has allowed the organization to become a very troubled place by encouraging an atmosphere of mistrust, power, and abuse. She knows and at the very least does NOTHING. This is not an organization that has been run for 50 years by a divine being, one who is guided by Yogananda. Personal stories from insiders Those who do get close to DM are often the most discouraged. To be a devoted follower of Master and choose to serve SRF only to find the real situation at the top is difficult to handle. The abuse and organizational problems are no longer seen as training but just seen for what they are. There are many stories in the Walrus about what people have seen. From these stories, and more I know about not posted here, I see a much different Faye Wright. She possibly didn’t start that way, in fact probably didn’t. She almost certainly had a great opportunity to overcome her tendencies for weakness and …… She faltered. Loving Devotees What I do see is many many wonderful, loving, caring, giving, hard working, selfless, devoted, helping devotees. Master is loving these people, smiling at us through these people, and his work will be carried on through these people. They are the future of SRF, not the mother center business park. Edited by: KS at: 2/5/02 10:04:01 pm
Parabastha Unregistered User (2/6/02 4:33 am) Reply	Kamala on Daya Mata I personally think Kamala is being misquoted here. Let us see what she did say: "Master remarked, 'The disciples who are around me are not 'Yes' people; they all have strong will.' Some of them had been renunciants for twenty or more years at that time; others had come more recently. They had a quietness in common and came, not with talking and problems, but to serve in God's work. One day a Sister left the room after receiving some office instructions from Master. He said to me, 'I have been training her all these years... Now I am satisfied.' I knew he was commenting upon the role she would play in future SRF work, for steadfast discipleship was fitting disciples for the responsabilities later assigned to them.* His comment made me cognizant that the time was near when he wuld be placing the work in hands other than his own." * One of the Sisters became president of Self-Realization Fellowship in 1955. (Flawless Mirror, p. 166-7) In all that book there is no evidence of Kamala's testemony of the alleged Master's words about Daya Mata: "Follow her example. I can work through her because she is receptive." Besides this Kamala only reports a superconscious dream she had, years later, of being with Daya Mata (page 21 . Again she only praises Daya Mata's state of great tranquility in that dream.
DIF Fan Unregistered User (2/6/02 7:22 am) Reply	More on Faye In case any of you have not read it, the DIF website contains a lot of information on Faye's early days and how she has operated the organization since. www.yogananda-dif.org/dayadyna.htm
Newboy Unregistered User (2/6/02 9:55 am) Reply	DM and men in SRF KS and Parabastha: Thanks to you both for your thoughtful responses. I appreciate the time and consideration you put into your respective postings. Well, as has been noted in different ways throughout the various threads of this web site, "growing up is hard to do!" My heart feels heavy as I peruse the many postings on this site. My heart also goes out to the former monastics and employees who contribute. As a former resident of A-nanda and CSA (Roy Eugene Davis), I know something about the dynamics of staying AND leaving. If nothing else this site forces me (again) to go inside and connect directly with Master and the paramgurus. I won't deny that I'm one of those devotees who "wants a church" or, at least, satsanga, group meditation, and the opportunity to serve. Like you, KS, I have seen many wonderful, loving souls (men and women) worshipping and serving equally at SRF. I will try to take the long view and hope for reform. If the status quo at MW is as dire as described here, then it simply can't survive in its present form forever! On the other hand, things don't simply change unless the people involved change first. What a dilemma. God, where is the SRF of Yogananda? Did it ever exist? Direct disciples no longer there insist that during Master's life, MW was wonderful abeit full of problems, struggles, and a few eccentric misfits! I still struggle with the image of DM portrayed here. I'm in no position to challenge it, so I won't even try. I have had personal conversations over the years with former monastics like Roy Eugene Davis who described DM as "pure love." Obviously Davis can't love the organization too much, so he may have been commenting on the Faye he knew in 1950? (He made this remark to me years ago). Even that former VP of SRF has said wonderful things about DM over the years regardless of their longtime feud. What to think? What to think? It may sound foolish to members of this board, but I am inspired by the books, audio tapes, and video tapes of DM. Maybe I'm buying into the image of her that SRF presents, but I say, whatever keeps one motivated on the path "should" be honored. Perhaps this is want Master meant when, it is claimed, he said "the teachings [writings] will be the guru once I'm gone." I still get inspired and stay motivated by all of the authors published by SRF regardless of the edition or the editors who produced them! Parabastha, apparently I did extrapolate on Kamala's observation from her book instead of reading it first then quoting from it correctly. My apologies. By the way, in a letter to its membership, SRF claims that they maintained a friendly relationship with Kamala after her publications, and that she visited MW at Christmas and other times until she was too ill to travel. A-nanda folks say just the opposite. Personally, I loved her autobiograhy and agree with the reviewer who described it as an "eloquent footnote to the incomparable [AY]." Did any former monastics here ever witness any Kamala sitings when they were there? Again, reading this board has been an eye-opener and humbling too. How easy it is to view uncritically the presentation an organization gives of itself. I still love the positive parts of SRF; i.e., the beautifully maintained temples where Master taught, the honest counsel I've received from ministers, and the inspiring examples set by Master's advanced disciples. I will continue to pray for reform and God's Will in all SRF activities. Jai Guru.
KS Registered User (2/6/02 11:27 am) Reply	Understand I understand the struggle with the DM image. I would suggest you not spend too much time on it. Focus on Master directly. The whole DM issue is a side show SRF created. These discussions only help us to learn we don't need the crutch, the go between to Master. It is also a warning if you are considering getting close to the organization, or are already there and think you are going crazy. You are not alone. You are not crazy. You should also be ready to help those already there who are probably going through a very difficult time. Both monastics and employees, even volunteers. Keep your eyes open for opportunities to help.
NewBoy Unregistered User (2/6/02 1:48 pm) Reply	Understand Thank you for helping me to understand. Also, I didn't respond fully to your earlier point of not being concerned over what people said about DM in the 1940s. Your point is well taken. People living at SRF now can only base their perceptions on what they see in the present. That's only fair. When I was at CSA with Roy Eugene Davis, the more disillusioned I grew with him, the more I came to resent his stories of Master and SRF. The young yogi who showed up at MW in 1949 was certainly not the man I saw before me. By the time I left, I didn't care how many lights Master had showed him in his third eye! Jai Guru.
raman Unregistered User (2/6/02 3:23 pm) Reply	Roy Eugene Davis Newboy, I found your comments about R E Davis surprising. I've read some of his books and have often wanted to go and meet him. It's a long trip for me, so I'd like to know as much about him and CSA as possible before I make the decision to go (or not go). Could you describe Davis and some of your experiences with him and CSA? What was it that disillusioned you? I would really appreciate it. Thanks.
chuckle Unregistered User (2/6/02 5:17 pm) Reply	reply to Newboy Newboy, I can appreciate the difficulties you are having with thinking about Daya Mata. I think KS has made a number of good points, the most important being to focus on Master. Indeed, in the midst of all the troubles that’s the best advice we can give each other. I think Daya Mata has a good amount of holiness, if you will. You can hear it in the “Heart Aflame” talk. Having said that, I don’t think she’s perfect by any means, and I can accept the claims of those on this board who feel she has been a part of the problems, possibily even a major part of the problem. Personality and behavior are a complex matters; people are not black and white. Master pointed out that Sri Yukteswar was a complex person. Moreover, I have no doubt that Daya Mata and the other leaders of SRF have had good intentions. But I can readily believe that they may have succumbed to delusion in at least some of their actions; indeed, as the old saying goes, “the road to hell is paved with good intentions.” The only other thing I can say, Newboy, is that in the long run you will feel good about having had the courage to deal with these issues. A warm welcome to our friends from the "Yogananda discussion group" if you are new to this group! Please try to understand that we all love Master, and, strange as it may seem, we all want the best for his organization. It’s just that some of us think there are some very serious and fundamental problems that aren’t being addressed, and that these problems may only become worse (much worse) if we don’t take a look at things.
RedsterLA Registered User (2/6/02 6:44 pm) Reply	One thing... You said: "...For 30 years Daya Mata has only seen rock stars and large donors..." I cannot comment on the other items in your post, as I have not personally experienced that of which you speak, however, I DO know that your declaration above is untrue, or at the very least, a bit exaggerated. I have over a dozen friends who are neither large contributors, nor "rock stars" (or any other kind of famous or infamous persona) who have met with Daya Mata. Only half of them serve regularly at any temple or centre. They have all said their experiences were joyful, loving and uplifting. Most of them also have photographs commemorating their visit and treasure them -- and their experiences -- dearly. Just wanted to let you know.
username Registered User (2/7/02 7:11 am) Reply	Re: One thing... Redstar; Why don't you call mother center and make an appointment to see Daya Mata? Let me know when you see her ( I won't be holding my breath)
NewBoy Unregistered User (2/7/02 7:23 am) Reply	One Thing... Redster, I must agree with you on this point. KS made excellent points in his message to me, but the one you cite sounds dubious. Even a cursory glance at the SRF magazine over the past 30 years shows Daya Ma at many, many events. I, too, know of people who met with her or encountered her who weren't rich or famous Thanks for keeping us clear and centered. Jai Guru.
KS Unregistered User (2/7/02 7:41 am) Reply	DM at Events Fayes attendance at events is another issue that insiders have to deal with. The illusion in magazines is just that, an illusion. Famous people do come to visit her at Mother Center, and that is always a photo opportunity. However Faye never attends public events. She does not speak at the UN or religious councils or even SRF temples. She speaks once a year at Convocation and only after the main talk so she doesn't have to cover much time. She arrives with an armed escort and is shuttled through halls cleared of people so she doesn't have to interact with anyone. Indiviuals can meet with her? To be honest in the 60's and early 70's this did happen sometimes. Durga Mata used to meet with people all the time and so they started to try that with Faye, but it didn't last long. I do know of several large donors who have met with her, that is true and if you are up there much you will see rock and movie stars once in a while. She does hold a satsanga maybe once a year, maybe less, where selected individuals are invited. This is heavily filmed and mostly "royalty" is invited. I do have some large donor friends who attend these. They are always very flushed with how special they are to be invited. As a test, just try and call to get her on the phone. Don't even try to meet her, just try to call her. That will tell you something.
AumBoy Registered User (2/7/02 12:16 pm) Reply	Re: Roy Eugene Davis *Quote:* He cautioned me to never idealize or romantize Master's direct disciples. Ding! Hear the bell ringing? On a more serious note: I find it interesting that other groups have problems that SRF does not seem to have. Why is that? I think after reading these things posted here I would surmise that SRF is the "better, higher, more true organization." BUT I lived there. These same problems exist in SRF, too. Had I not lived in and experienced these things, I would probably side wholeheartedly with SRF. From my experience, the only thing SRF is better at is being secretive and remote. This is why I cannot fault others for their shortcomings. We all have them. I know I do. This is why, after being in SRF, I want Love to embrace all irrespective of the organization. And doesn't Master write that the Sun shines equally on the diamond and charcoal? (Both are made of carbon. Of course, he could have included sugar, too; at least you can eat that.) I, personally, do not fault the BOD for not being perfect and have not called them "bad ladies". (My preference.) I think there is more to it than that. I believe that they are trying to do the best they can to guide the work as they feel divinely inspired to do. That does not mean it is correct, or the best, or the highest, or that we should become doormats. I feel that there is a real danger to blind, fervent, unthinking loyalty to any ideal. This encompasses religion, nations, politics, patriotism, authority, etc. As George Santayana wrote, "Those who do not learn from the past are condemned to repeat it." (I could write a lot more on this but it would take us off topic.) God gave us each a brain which we need to us wisely. Discrimination, intuition, brain cells, all are tools at our disposal that we need to keep finely tuned to use well. Since leaving the ashram my relationship with the Guru has changed, I feel, for the better. No longer do I feel Him "up there" somewhere. (Whether it is an altar, or cosmic throne.) And sometimes I no longer feel Him next to me. He is just in me. And my discussions with Him are no longer simply (said in a prayerful voice), "Oh Thou Great One, guidest Thou me Home." Sometimes my "conversations" are more like, "Look, fix it!" or "Hey! Are you listening?" or "Well? I'm waiting!" or "Divine Mother, what the heck are You doing? Do You know what's happening here? Do I have to clue You in?" But my relationship is more real, too. I can now argue with Master. (Not that it changes anything.) And it is still loving. Didn't Master have disagreements with Divine Mother? Self-realization is about direct personal experience of God. Our burning desire for oneness with God is the same burning desire He has for us to come Home. He misses us. She misses us. I feel that if we become too attached to people, organizations, personalities, whatever, God removes it sometimes gently (other times not so gently) and says, "Me? It is Me. Did you remember Me?" (And remember, "desire" comes from a latin word meaning "of the Lord.") He who watches Me always, I watch him always, through the flowers, stars, and human beings, he never loses sight of Me, nor do I lose sight of him. - PY Can you hear His voice?
premdas Registered User (2/8/02 11:01 am) Reply	Another home run.... Aum Boy! An INSIDE homerun this time! Master's true identity, ours, it's all inside! My altar is forever portable and permanent. No one nor no thing can separate me from the Divine. Krsña, Christ Jesus, God, the Masters, my Gurudev; we're all the same. I am loved. I am Love. Throughout this life and eternal incarnations. SELF-Realization: I am He! I pray that I never forget. I pray that I see God in all. Thank you for your uplifting inspiration! (to inspire: to act with God, to breath) Premdas
AumBoy Registered User (2/8/02 11:06 pm) Reply	Re: Another home run.... One more thing: years ago I read (I think in Reader's Digest) that scholars translating parts of the Bible realized that Jesus, in many of his prayers, used the word 'Abba' when he referred to God. This is the familiar term. Jesus wasn't saying 'Father', but 'Daddy.' This has been incredibly moving for me. Imagine having such a relationship with God that it is simply 'Mommy where are You? I need You!' or 'Daddy, I miss You. When will You come?'
NewBoy Unregistered User (2/12/02 12:40 pm) Reply	Responding to Raman Much of what you read about SRF on this board applies to Mr. Davis and his retreat center, but on a smaller scale. Since Mr. Davis is the de facto guru / spiritual director of CSA, he answers to no one except his conscience, which seems absent more often than not. Many people enjoy Mr. Davis's books, and to be fair, some of his early titles are inspired writing. However, writing about the spiritual life and living it are two different things. Like me, most people who try to treat Mr. Davis as their personal teacher or their personal link to Yoganandaji come away disillusioned by his "adharmic" behavior in matters great and small. To detail what I mean by "adharmic" would be inappropriate if not libelous on a board such as this one. Just review the Yamas and Niyamas in the Yoga Sutras, especially the opposite traits, and you'll see what I mean. One piece of wisdom that Mr. Davis shared with me proved invaluable when dealing with Davis himself: "Don't idealize Yogananda's direct disciples" he once said. "They were all very human." Those disciples yet living still are! A second revealing remark he made was regarding his first visit to India, where he met Satya Sai Baba. At one intimate gathering, Sai Baba turned to Mr. Davis and said, "It is not enough to be the disciple of a great guru. The disciple must become like the guru!" In either his autobiography or a magazine article of his, Mr. Davis presents this episode in the third person, but I later learned that Sai Baba was addressing Mr. Davis. Raman, why do you think Sai Baba said that to Mr. Davis? Go and find out for yourself. Experience is, ultimately, the best teacher. Jai Guru.
Musicman Unregistered User (2/12/02 4:19 pm) Reply	All too human SRF Walrus: I deleted this post mostly on Sai Baba. If you like you may post that kind of content in the CATCH ALL section. Let us not get too far off track and keep threads in this section focused on SRF and its treatment of Members and Monastics. There are many other boards for discussing all the religions and problems in the world. Now back to Musicman: PS: Don't you wish I'd get the hell off of this board? Sorry, I wish I could, but it is, as fighter pilots like to say, a "target-rich environment." I'm hooked. Edited by: srfwalrus at: 2/12/02 9:53:37 pm
Jan Unregistered User (2/12/02 5:11 pm) Reply	Sai Baba SRF Walrus: I deleted this post on Sai Baba. If you like you may post that kind of content in the CATCH ALL section. Let us not get too far off track and keep threads in this section focused on SRF and its treatment of Members and Monastics. Edited by: srfwalrus at: 2/12/02 9:49:46 pm
username Registered User (2/13/02 8:51 am) Reply	Re: Sai Baba I sad that I missed reading the posts. Why didn't you just move them to catch all? Was there something offensive to you in the posts?
Musicman Unregistered User (2/13/02 9:48 am) Reply	Sai Baba I cetainly respect the wisdom of the all-seeing Walrus and will accede to his/her wishes. I will say that I'm a bit confused, because the post to which I was responding devoted a whole paragraph to Sai Baba, and that was not excised. Also, the portion of my response devoted to Davis and PY was cut out along with the remarks about Sai Baba. All that was left was my self-effacing postscript, without any context whatsoever. But . . . Om, Walrus. No posts would be possible at all without the Walrus's supervisory legerdemain. What I said about Davis should remain here: We should take Davis's excellent observation about the humanity of the SRF leadership to the next level: Don't idealize Yogananda; he was very human. As for my Sai Baba comments, I will take those to Catch All, where anyone can read them. PS I continue to trust that excisions are not prompted by personal prejudice but are made on an impartial basis of relative appropriateness.
concerned Unregistered User (2/13/02 9:56 am) Reply	Deletions I got the distinct impression that the Walrus had a bad day at work and came home and took it out on the board participants. The deletions made no sense. At the very least, if he felt the postings should be on the Catch All section, he could have easily put them there himself instead of the deleting them. Deleting someone's work after they've taken the time to write the message is like a slap in the face. It just seemed so vindictive and unfair. [ SRF Walrus Edit: I can only move whole threads, not individual messages. I do wish I could move parts of a thread. I continue to try and keep the message focus on topic but only have a large hammer to work with. ] Edited by: srfwalrus at: 2/13/02 8:50:43 pm