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redpurusha Registered User (2/5/04 9:39 am) Reply	Re: Christ and SRF Say, I'm sorry to hear you have not derived any benefit from the teachings and of your bad experience with SRF. The teachings are not personalized and that is their biggest con, but how could they? At first I had some guilt about not following the lessons as they are, but no more. I've learned to adopt what is best suited for me and what works for me. I don't recal Christ's teachings blazing a pathway for the masses either when they were made public (not before a long time had passed). Each of these world teachers expressed universal truths in his unique way. It's funny how many here on walrus accuse Yogananda of plagerism, yet all these teachers from Buddha to today's Eckhart Tolle are all saying the same things, teaching the same basic principles. An argument can be made that Tolle is copying all his ideas from Jesus. Yogananda learned at the feet of his guru and his guru learned at the feet of his guru, and these same teachings have been passed down. Yogananda always has maintained he was an instrument of God (God can work through him as a channel). For you his teachings (SRF) may have failed, but I've seen many sad faces in christian churches as well. I also love Jesus Christ and am inspired everyday by his life and example.
premdas Registered User (2/5/04 10:29 am) Reply	Re: Christ and SRF God is in all these paths, even the individual adaptations to the major religions. There are infinite colors on the pallet of God's creation. Find the colors that lift you to true joy, that bless you and others, that brings light into the world. Does a teaching/belief raise your consciousness higher or does it bring you down? And if it brings you down, let it go and move on to search for tha which inspires you to inner heights. Whether Yogananda, SRF, Christ as entities serves you is inconsequential to spirit. God is no "Hanging Judge". Again, what serves you is right for you, providing it is dharmic and given back to the creator. Which one works for you doesn't negate that which works for another. I have found that Yogananda is my guru and I try to attune myself to his spirit. i embrace all paths to God/spirit.I agree w/Red. Take what you can to help you on your path and beware of the pull of negativity that hinders your approach to inner peace & bliss. When we start attacking and acting without respect, we start to join our real enemy, and quietly begin wearing his robe. Watch out for the mayic tendency of dark criticism that would separate and judge & condemn. But, Hey, it's all God's play! So are you happy? "A sad saint is a sad saint indeed!" In Joy! Premdas
A voice in the supermarket Registered User (2/5/04 11:33 am) Reply	Re: Christ and SRF Hi Premdas. Your ascent outlooks look optimistic to me.
ranger20 Registered User (2/5/04 11:37 am) Reply	Re: Christ and SRF SayItIsntSo, Huge question (value of the guru/teachings), very thoughtful answer. The answer for me is still kind of a moving target. In many cases, not black or white, but grey, largely because I was a mess when I got started, chaos outside and inside. As a result of reading the AY, starting the lessons, joining a little meditation group, within the first few years, I stopped smoking and drinking to excess, gained a degree of inner calmness, was able to get and keep a decent job. Spiritual life, seeking God came to be core concerns, where there had just been an emptiness before. I am grateful for all of those changes. I recently heard a pompous sounding phrase that is actually a part of Catholic doctrine, “The efficacy of a sacrament is not dependant on the sanctity of the priest.” I’ll paraphrase it for SRF, “the benefits I gained, especially at the start, were not contingent on the virtue of the organization.” Of course I know from my current perspective, that there was a price extracted, almost from the beginning. You actually call it “mental illness.” Interesting. I worked several years with a therapist to unpack some of the guilt. But being dutiful about such instructions as “read some of the teachings every day,” I started shoveling it right back in again, all along thinking “my bad.” There are issues and issues and issues. We could enumerate them forever. Ultimately it came down to this, way deep down, at the gut level, I could never really trust the God of SRF. I have an image of the end of life being something like a gladiator approaching the imperial throne in the Roman arena, for the final thumbs up or thumbs down, and the secret knowledge that no matter what I do, it won’t be enough. I mean this is not the “rational” view, these are hour of the wolf images. In turning back, re-turning to Jesus and Christianity, I have found that unconditional acceptance as I am now, that I realize I was always looking for, and not finding. “What you do to the least of these…” What I do to the least of these – what I do to myself, because I am “one of the least of these” also. This is the heart of it for me now. A convoluted path, but it is what it is, and feeling like I found a life raft, I want to keep my parting from SRF on as mild terms as possible, for my own sake, as in no excess baggage please. I just feel very bad for those who remain as round pegs in square holes.
bsjones Registered User (2/5/04 1:47 pm) Reply ezSupporter	Re: Christ and SRF Ranger, Say, Red, prem, et al - does anyone have any experience with "Lectio Divina" - the prayerful reading of the Bible? Edited by: bsjones at: 2/5/04 2:22 pm
SayItIsntSo Registered User (2/5/04 1:55 pm) Reply	Re: Christ and SRF Ranger, You really speak for me in many ways.
premdas Registered User (2/5/04 2:25 pm) Reply	Re: Christ and SRF Jones, Sorry, no I don't. What is it, anyone? P.
bsjones Registered User (2/5/04 2:34 pm) Reply ezSupporter	Re: Christ and SRF Here is a link: lectio It seems similiar to eastern practices, koan practice for example.
ranger20 Registered User (2/5/04 2:46 pm) Reply	Re: Christ and SRF See this link for an intro: www.centeringprayer.com/lectio.htm Lectio Divina is a traditional method of "praying the scriptures" that has been discussed recently by Thomas Keating and Basil Pennington in their books and seminars on Centering Prayer. Especially see Keating's Open Mind, Open Heart. I think it was never as much "lost" as Centering or contemplative prayer, but has continued to be a practice in Catholic monastic orders. It is a method of slowly reading and "hearing" scripture as if "listening" to the Holy Spirit addressing you in particular. Then, when a certain word or phrase captures your attention, you take it with you, and ruminate on it throughout the day. I have not done it much, because unfortunately I'm busy too many days, but on several occasions it has been of great benefit. One time I took such a passage as a mantra throughout the day for a period of about three months. It has been my experience that when doing that, "living with" a mantra or affirmation during ones active times, then saying it after Kriya really drives it down deep, into the "Aha!," gut level experience. Of course this not a part of traditional Lectio, which I think has value all on it's own.
YellowBeard420 Slow Down (2/6/04 10:08 am) Reply	Face to Face with Reality as it Is > SayItIsntSo wrote: “With SRF I worried all the time. SRF is a sack of worries. There is NO way anyone can do everything the lessons tell you to do and be "normal."” Well put. I love the line, “SRF is a sack of worries.” Very true and to the point. I'd like to comment here to introduce the idea that I feel it's not a good idea to let SRF ruin one's interest in Eastern philosophy and the art of meditation and the value that can come from a sane, more healthy “normal” approach. SRF meditations are very rigid and confining, which doesn't allow much room for real growth. Just as the Energization Exercises were very robotic, so are the meditations boxed in within rigid predefined patterns. This is not what meditation or yoga is about, we've simply been exposed to poor, spiritually immature teachings. Most of what is out there falls into the category of “poor, spiritually immature teachings”. This is because we're largely exposed to these things by people trying to sell them and/or trying to start a religious cult. Skillful yoga and meditation is not a mechanical list of instructions to follow. We don't hear much about this because there's not much to “sell” here. One just says enough to give a Truth seeker a little nudge in the right direction. It's an internal, personal process and no one can take us by the hand down this road. When someone tries to, it becomes a disaster. > SayItIsntSo: “I've spent five years away from "all religions" and only recently started to study the teachings of Jesus.” Many readers may find what I'm going to say here disturbing, but I encourage those readers to at least weigh what's being said with an open mind. Then throw it away if it doesn't feel useful. And speaking on a more skillful spiritual approach -- we should throw it away even if we do find it useful as well. The goal is to have a clear, naturally expansive mind, unburdened and uncluttered by a collection of ideas. Spiritual maturity starts when we begin to have faith in ourselves and by not always trying to live up to someone else's standards. I believe it's not wise to give up a spiritual authority only to replace it with another. This is a problem we all experience at times. To be specific to our conversation here: we may become disillusioned with Yogananda (and I would add rightfully so) only to seek out other charismatic cult-like yoga instructors. Or we may become disillusioned with yoga and go back to the religion of our culture (Christianity for most readers here). Let's look closely at Jesus now -- our old, yet new route to Salvation. We need to look at all his teachings, and not just the parts we like. --------- Jesus told the disciples to bring before Him any man who didn't believe in Him, and to violently slaughter the non-believer while Jesus watched (Luke 19:27). Jesus killed one man by having his body eaten by a swarm of worms because the man failed to give Jesus His due (Acts 12:23). Jesus struck a Jew blind for thwarting His teachings (Acts 13:8-11). He struck a man dumb for failing to listen well (Luke 1:20). He took the lives of a husband and wife by scaring them to death for not forking over all the money they made on a real estate transaction (Acts 5:1-10). During one particularly temperamental time when Jesus was hungry, He even killed a fig tree for failing to bear figs, even though Jesus knew figs weren't in season (Mark 11:12-14). ---------- In Matthew 10:34 we read: “Do not think that I have come to bring peace on earth. I have not come to bring peace but a sword.” And then verse 35 goes on: “For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. And man's foes will be those of his own household.” Jesus was simply a cult leader form a couple thousand years ago. Why should we look at him any differently just because of that? Were people more "holy" back then? We should think seriously about this and not just react with angry rejection. Cult activity is to take people out of their environments and to teach them to reject the world outside, particularly family (as Jesus points out above). Is this a healthy spiritual approach? Those of you with children better be careful with what you're promoting, it may come back to bite you on the arse. (Sorry about the abrasiveness of that statement, but it's important to understand.) If your loved ones choose a different cult -- you can wave bye-bye to them. Is that how we should live? It's up to you to decide, and not some guy called Jesus. In my opinion, Jesus committed the ultimate sin by claiming that he was God, and that you can only find Salvation through him. Yogananda did the same, but in a much more subtle fashion. Jesus was a little more bold about this approach. How many people have been killed and tortured in slow, hideous ways because of these so called sacred teachings? Spiritual authority is dangerous in whatever packaging it comes in. This is what I've been saying here since day 1 on this board. This message is more important than you may think. Following a spiritual authority may bring us into "bliss bunny" mode for a while, but actually it's destruction from the get-go. It immediately creates division within yourself -- the holy man (who you aspire to become) and yourself (a sinful beast). One may think here, I understand this, I don't look at it this way. I say, do you understand this? What we're talking about here takes place on a subconscious level. If we truly understood the harm that comes from this crude religious approach, we would never follow another. The reality of our existence is Eternity and Oneness with each other. A lot of people throw those words around, but don't really understand what is implied. They think these are just comfortable beliefs for us to snuggle up in. Our existence is eternal -- that means it never began (it was not created by a god) and it will never end. Our thinking process divides the world into time as a way of attempting to deal with it. Our existence is Oneness -- this means that we are all truly the same being or Self. The labyrinth of thought that we're absorbed in creates the perception of separation. In this Oneness, no one is "more" the Self than another. In other words, no one is more holy than another. Being overly wrapped up in this tight labyrinth of thought creates the suffering that we experience in life. Coming to terms with the facts of our existence -- eternity and oneness -- is about dealing with life as it is. And dealing with things as they are is what we call a "healthy" approach to life. Whatever path you're on needs to turn non-dual, for that's the only way we can truly deal with reality as it is. Because Reality is non-dual (meaning not divided as we normally perceive it). What happens when the tensions and fears within us dissipates as a result of the battle between the opposites coming to an end? I'm sure that you can begin to imagine. And let me assure you, this grows deeper and richer the further you go into it.
gimmeaweed Registered User (2/6/04 10:23 am) Reply	Re: Face to Face with Reality as it Is Smoke more weed, eh?
entheogenesis Registered User (2/6/04 11:46 am) Reply	Re: Face to Face with Reality as it Is > Gimmeaweed wrote: "Smoke more weed, eh?" More specifically, I would recommend oral use of the more psychedelic strains of cannabis. But this would be more appropriately discussed at: pub78.ezboard.com/fsrfwal...D=34.topic Take a look at the Psychedelic Yoga article. Also see this thread: pub78.ezboard.com/fsrfwal...D=19.topic
SayItIsntSo Registered User (2/6/04 6:18 pm) Reply	Re: Face to Face with Reality as it Is Yellow, I don't know where I stand yet. I haven't committed to a church of any religion. Edited by: SayItIsntSo at: 2/10/04 4:42 pm
SayItIsntSo Registered User (2/6/04 7:37 pm) Reply	Re: Face to Face with Reality as it Is You know, I was thinking, with all this ranting I've done here, I should say that I'm not angry with Yogananda, and I'm not going to join a witch hunt to disprove him or his motives. PY had a very rich life. He had many movie star friends. He hobnobed. I never had a problem with that, but a lot of his real life isn't discussed. In life, he was a very wonderful man and many of us have seen "A Life Divine," and not one of us can say we didn't shed a tear. I knew people who knew him outside of SRF. He was very humble according to one account. I knew a man who lived on the backside of MC. He was an artist. I knew him through his son. Anyways, this artist wasn't a member of SRF, and knew little about what went on at MC. But, he said when PY was alive, he used to take a little walk to his house now and again and share a glass of milk and talk about the news of the day. PY hired him to paint a picture of himself, which he did. The man also had many photos he'd taken of PY, that he shared with me. One, PY was holding his cat. He said after PY died, a bunch of monks nearly broke down his door and demanded all the photo's he'd taken of PY. He refused them. But he claimed they "locked up" his painting and it was never seen again. He thought the monks had acted very strange and he didn't have a nice thing to say about them. But he adored PY, and thought of him as his friend. I guess, the very least I can learn from that is, I can think of him as a friend. I'd also like to say that I served in the crypt during the Convocation tours several times. Say what we will, but there is a vibration in that location that will drop a person to their knees. I saw somethings and felt somethings there that I can't even explain to myself. I also had personal experiences throughout the years that were blissful, unparalled to anything I can explain. The human element to his teachings--or the lack of human element, and the way things were run in the end (or my end with SRF) was the disillusionment--the train wreck--for me. Entirely my own experience! Edited by: SayItIsntSo at: 2/10/04 4:45 pm
redpurusha Registered User (2/6/04 7:46 pm) Reply	Re: Face to Face with Reality as it Is I just went on BibleGateway and read over some of the bible verses presented by yellowbeard. With the exception of the killing of a fig tree (to make a point), they deal with angels as the active agents or are in the context of parables. Christ's teaching of 'bringing a sword, not peace' (Matthew 10:34), of a 'man's foes being of his own household' very much resembles some of the Gita's verses, especially the first chapter when Krishna tells Arjuna to go to battle and kill his own relatives (see Arujna's Dispodency). For someone just reading it at face-value it does have a shocking effect -killing your own family members? What kind of teachings are these? But a deeper examination of these teachings reveals an esoteric side to them which describe the inner psychological battle within the bodily kingdom, in which 'relatives' of sensual pleasures and bodily attachments (which we have become familiar with and appear to be our friends) must be removed or 'killed' with the 'sword' of discrimination in order for Self-realization to unfold. Due to the very disguised and hidden nature of the teachings (given in parables, metaphors and such) most people have misunderstood the intentional meaning. It appears there's mulitiple levels to these teachings and people apply those levels which correspond with their spiritual development. Edited by: redpurusha at: 2/7/04 6:35 am
jyotirmoy Registered User (2/7/04 5:59 am) Reply	Re: Face to Face with Reality as it Is Thank you, RedPurusha, for a clear answer to YellowBeard's list of all the "sins" of Jesus. Who is the fundamentalist? Not you, not SayItIsntSo. I'm not, either. I was trained to do Lectio Divina from a 12th-century book by a certain Guigo the Carthusian. Something like a technique that could be compared to svadhyaya, the next-to-last niyama of ashtanga-yoga, that is, the meditative study of "one's own" tradition, sacred writings, and/or soul. Guigo's first stage is "lectio" as "simply reading," not reading-to-learn, reading-to-remember, reading-to-find-proof-texts (either for or against Christianity!); just let your eye run down the page, until it catches on something (the Spirit and/or your spirit will point you there). Then do "meditatio" [sic], which is like the cow chewing its cud: you go over and over the word/phrase/parable/metaphor that caught your eye. Next is "oratio" (praying), prayer of the heart, from the heart, in the heart; or, in other words, if the sacred text was in the third person, you translate it into second person (I-Thou language); a standard form of this is the prayer of the Russian pilgrim (the "Jesus Prayer"). Final stage is "contemplatio," which is inner assimilation to the One to whom we pray, when words fail, and all we have are "sighs too deep for words" (Paul, Romans chapter 8). (Some people add here another term, indicating a return to the sacred page with a new vision, or better yet, a return to the marketplace on your ox). Add to this an axiom of Antony of the Desert (fourth century): "You truly pray, when you no longer know you are praying." And another by Bonaventure (thirteenth century), about the three "Books of God": the Bible, cosmic Nature, and the soul. So I try to do "Lectio Divina" on all three, until ... Of course this is bhakti. Anything wrong with that?
redpurusha Registered User (2/7/04 7:10 am) Reply	Re: Face to Face with Reality as it Is ahoy jyotirmoy, there's nothing wrong with bhakti, unless of course you don't want to open the door to God's kingdom? That's an interesting way of praying -Lectio Divina- in India, there's a similar approach. Students of the Gita are taught to read one verse or stanza at a time, then proceed to contemplate on it or 'digest' its meaning, followed by meditation, finally asking questions or making comments to the guru or teacher. This is not how I read the Gita however. I swallowed up the 1000pg+ "God Talks With Arjuna" in less than two weeks. But now I open up to any page and read a couple verses whenever I need some inspiration or guidance. Yogananda's temperament was bhatki centered. To give credit to yellowbeard, there's some value to his cautionary approach in accepting someone else's teachings and influence over oneself. Many lives have been ruined and many families have been torn apart thanks to some bad guidance from various religious institutions and independent teachers. But mostly, this has more to do with one's own lack of discrimination and just plain ignorance. There's good guidance and bad guidance. There's true teachers and false teachers. There's teachers and teachings in between. Only a mentally boxed-in fundamentalist would say every spiritual teacher is a fake and every religious institution is a cult out to get you.
A voice in the supermarket Registered User (2/7/04 9:11 am) Reply	Re: Face to Face with Reality as it Is Is the original Christian concept for congregations adhered to in SRF? Not so. There is more on the Cult Busters - pub177.ezboard.com/fcultb...ID=7.topic
A voice in the supermarket Registered User (2/7/04 9:55 am) Reply	Re: Face to Face with Reality as it Is Dear Yellowbeard, I read your long posting and agreed, nodding and thinking. I associated it with a few other things. This is a very slight tendency I have. Maybe other readers too: ----------------------- All right PRESTER BEN served as a judge in his village. His son was by his side to learn the office of giving justice. A man came to complain, "I had a robe fitted for me. As soon as I dressed it and walked out in the street, the poorly sewn clothing fell apart and, pardon me for mentioning it, left me quite naked in shame in front of a crowd. Therefore I must not pay the tailor." Very impressed, prester Ben exclaimed, "You're right!" Hearing this verdict, the tailor rushed before him and pleaded his case, "This crazy customer brought his own scraps of rag and ordered me to sow them together. He leaned over my shoulder to annoy me with his advice and forced my hand to finish fast. At the end he couldn't wait, snatched it away and left in spite of my warnings. He must pay for the work!" The prester agreed once again. "You're right", he said. This left both seller and buyer lost in wonder. After they left, his perplexed son said: "But they can't be both right?" Prester Ben agreed at once, "You're right, son." More humorous stories here: oaks.nvg.org/re3ra15.html --------------------------- I notice that much of what you say about SRF things, is not gainsaid. It may or may not be according to the Latin "He who is silent, seems to agree." The proverb runs like that in the original form. But the fig tree lessons stands! The "not peace, but a sword!" teachings by "the prince of peace" who came to create hard division stands too. And isn't this alarming? "He took the lives of a husband and wife by scaring them to death for not forking over all the money they made on a real estate transaction (Acts 5:1-10)." That was the Holy Spirit and Peter. And since Jesus said he would be with his follower, he should be with Peter at the time too - You say, "Jesus was simply a cult leader . . ." There are very good reasons to say Christianity broke out of Judaism as a sect. It should be stressed that the new religion dispensed with some heart commandments of Jews: (1) The seriously enforced Sabbath rest, (2) the circumcision covenant. You state that "Jesus committed the ultimate sin by claiming that he was God". Now, in Hindu literature there is one famous saying, "He who realizes Brahman (God, All-God) becomes Brahman". And that is an end of yoga, and kriya yoga. Lahiri says much to this end. You state, "Our existence is eternal". This appears to be an article of faith. Mhm! "Coming to terms with the facts of our existence . . ." - this is what Yahweh says to Moses about himself: "I am who I am (Or I will be what I will be)". [Exodus 3:14] Accordingly, there is room for development, for becoming.
SayItIsntSo Registered User (2/7/04 11:52 am) Reply	Re: Face to Face with Reality as it Is redprusha, I didn't even bother with looking the scriptures up. I knew they were out of context. But thanks for posting back and pointing that out. SAY