human rights for Palestinians..from Ready for Revolution

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rachelcorrie Registered User (1/6/04 11:11 pm) Reply	human rights for Palestinians..from Ready for Revolution Hi Guests and All, On page 557 in Ready for Revolution, Kwame Ture (Stokely Carmichael) writes: [I wish I had a scanner...LOL] "Over the years I've been attacked from many different quarters for various political stands I've taken.. That's to be expected. Welcomed, in fact, when you stand up for justice and try to tell the truth. "Madame Du Bois and I shared many conversations about Dr. Du Bois. One thing she said has stayed with me: 'Du Bois lived good life: He fought all the right fights. He made all the right enemies.' Making the right enemies. A pretty good way to judge a life, right? "There's been one issue in particular---the question of justice for the Palestinian people---on which I seem to have made my most implacable enemies. So be it. I'm proud of my support over many years for the human rights of the Palestinians. "This issue first surfaced publicly in 1967, just as I was stepping down from the SNCC chairmanship, but the roots were planted much earlier. A lot of nonsense---misinformation and disinformation---has been written about this. "At Bronx Science [Kwame's high school years], I attended study groups with the Young Socialists and Young Communist groups. We sang folk songs at these sessions. Here I learned to sing 'Have Nageela' and to dance the hora. During the fifties, these young-left groups were unquestionably pro-Zionist. Stalin had given arms to Zionist factions in 1948, and Israel was said to be progressive and socialist. End of story. There was no discussion at all of the rights of the Palestinian people. None. Not in those circles. So it never occurred to me then, that there might be another side to the story. "It was the early sixties before I encountered---in the pages of Mohammad Speaks---any discussion of Palestinian rights and resistance. This was before there was any mention on the American left of the injustices being done to the people. Unless it was to characterize the Palestinian resistance as 'terrorists.' But, of course, issues of justice do not disappear. The U.S. media may try to sweep them under the rug, but they will eventually surface. Yes, they do. But even back then, it didn't take a genius to sense that something important was missing from the media coverage of the Middle East. That was clear. rachel aka soulcircle the next post continues as we have begun page 558, the book, Ready for Revolution by Stokely Carmichael (Kwame Ture) Edited by: rachelcorrie at: 1/7/04 12:29 am
rachelcorrie Registered User (1/6/04 11:41 pm) Reply	Part Two page 558 Part Two including Herzl, Ben-Gurion, Begin...... "Later the movement presented us in SNCC with many urgent and immediate problems that focused our attention locally. This would begin to change after the 1965 assassination of Malcolm X. In Sncc this change was due almost entirely to the work of one courageous activist sister. I can truly say that my commitment to the disciplined study of Zionism in a systematic way can be attributed to this sister's influence. [here Ekwueme Michael Thewell, the autobiography's ghost writer, adds:] [In the two accounts of this period that I have, one long letter from 1991, the other an interview with me in 1998, Ture carefully avoided identifying this sister by name. I believe I understand his concern.---EMT] "Our sister had studied Latin American affairs and Middle Eastern history in college, after which she took a job in South America. There she met Palestinians who had been expelled from their homeland by the Zionist military. She began to investigate the issue. "Upon returning to the States, influenced by Malcolm, she worked with the Nation of Islam. Upon his expulsion from the Nation, she followed Malcolm into the Organization of Afro-American Unity. After his assassination, the sister joined SNCC, where she organized a study group on the question of Palestine. I was working in Lowndes County and was part of the group. It was at first a small group, but serious. Rap Brown, known today Jamil al-Amin, was a member, as was Ralph Featherstone (peace be unto him), a capable and committed brother from D.C. A few years later, Bro Ralph would be blown to bits by covert forces, most likely connected to the FBI. "The group read a book a month and met for discussion. We read everything we could find, not just pro-Palestinian or anti-Zionist materials. We found, to my surprise, that a great deal of the most incisive and persuasive critical writing was by Jewish writers who, from the perspective of the moral traditions of Jewish thought, opposed the militaristic expansionism underlying Zionist policies. "We also read the principal Zionists---Herzl, Ben-Gurion, Begin, documents from the Stern Gang, etc., etc. As a matter of fact, these Zionists ideologues provided the strongest evidence against Israel policies by openly revealing the naked colonialist intention at the heart of the Zionist enterprise. That as my second surprise. The third, and this was the shocker, was discovering the close military, economic, and political alliance between the Israeli government and the racist apartheid regime in South Africa. Now this was a real shock since I knew that during World War II, the Afrikaner nationalists had fiercely supported the Third Reich and had cultivated close associations with and had even organized themselves along the lines of the German Nazi Party. Edited by: rachelcorrie at: 1/7/04 12:29 am
rachelcorrie Registered User (1/7/04 12:22 am) Reply	Part Three page 559 knowledge is power "The brutal racist system that Afrikaner nationalists imposed on our people in South Africa was an adaptation of the master race ideology of Adolf Hitler and German fascism. Pure and simple, the worst state-sponsored racism the world had seen since the Third Reich. All decent humanity condemned it rightly. Of course we knew that while piously condemning apartheid verbally, America and her European capitalist allies were quietly profiting from it in economic and military terms. That was shameful. But, I have to say, discovering that the government of Israel was maintaining such a long, cozy and warm relationship with the worst enemy of black people came as a real shock. A kind of betrayal. And, hey, we weren't even supposed to even talk about this? C'mon. "From all accounts, the basis of this unsavory alliance proved even stranger. In the racist, fundementalist theology of the Boer, Afrikaners and Zionists were both 'chosen people,' thus authorized by divine covenant to occupy and possess the homelands of other people not similarly favored by God. Divine covenants in the modern world? Gimme a break. In any event, however fanciful the basis, the results of the military cooperation were real and concrete enough, chief among them the arsenals of tactical nuclear weapons stockpiled by Israel with South African assistance. "Our group was no secret cabal within SNCC. One of SNCC's mantras was 'knowledge is power.' So, as we learned, we shared our political education with other field secretaries. We discovered that many SNCC people already harbored serious doubts about the media's official version of events in that region of the world. I even had discussions with Jewish supporters of SNCC who were conflicted and morally troubled by aspects of the geopolitical behavior of the stte of Israel. "By the time I became chairman, a caucus in SNCC had been reading a book a month for two years on the Zionist question, entirely due to the honest, persistent, humble and unassuming work of our sister. But there had been no organization-wide discussion of the issue. Therefore no official organizational position on the issue existed. "I intended, during my chairmanship, to bring the issue before the staff to determine the will of the group: whether we should take a public position and exactly what that position should be. But many urgent battles---Black Power, Vietnam, resistance to the draft---intervened. Then that orderly process was short-circuited, and did not take place in the correct sequence. What happened was this: "My last act as chairman was to work with our sister in drafting a position paper, possibly for distribution in the SNCC newsetter, intended as the basis for internal discussions. This was a hard-hitting position paper, much of it in the form of sharp questions against a background of incontestable historical facts. This is what later became known in the press as SNCC's 'anti-Israel' position. Edited by: rachelcorrie at: 1/7/04 12:25 am
rachelcorrie Registered User (1/7/04 12:28 am) Reply	Stokely Carmichael's Autobiography page 560 Stokely Carmichael's Autobiography Ready for Revolution [Charlie Cobb: 'This was when we were beginning to look more seriously at the liberation struggles, particularly in Africa. But the 1967 Arab-Israeli War was very much in the air. What I recall about that position paper was a very general ongoing conversation in the Atlanta office. Folks would stop by, read it, make comments or suggestions. It was all very casual. On the level of "Hey these folks once had a country. Now they don't, they're all scattered and displaced. There's something very wrong about that." That is, until it ran in the newsletter. Then it got intense] "Of course, the newsletter was picked up by forces outside SNCC, fed to the press, and the rest is history. The most incredible wave of vilification erupted. And you know SNCC, once this barrage of denouncement and attack was unleashed, almost overnight, we weren't about to go embark on no 'damage control,' Jack. Nor was SNCC about to 'apologize' and repudiate the paper. Which, for one thing, was entirely accurate. So as a result of the [preemptive?---EMT] attacks, the document became in effect the SNCC position. "There was a press conference. I was no longer chair but I was present as Jamil and Featherstone defended SNCC's right and duty to express a position. The press was hostile and immediately began their attack. Jamil and Featherstone demolished them with facts and figures, dates and documentation. The brothers were in no way defensive, they went on the attack effectively. But needless to say the reporting did not reflect that. "What this overkill offensive launched immediately by organized Zionist forces demonstrated was that to raise any questions, however legitimate, about Zionist policies and actions was seen as a declaration of war. Unthinkable, verboten, in U.S. political discourse at the time. Not to be permitted. So war was declared on SNCC. "Would it have been different if the organization had been able to formally discuss the issue before all the hysteria? Probably not. I am sure the overwhelming majority---even consensus---would have been in support of justice for the people of Palestine. On the moral issue, no doubt at all. "Where there would have been serious---indeed, necessary---discussions was on the political question. The political wisdom of the organization's taking a public position at that time. Was it necessary to take on another fight, that one in particular, and at that time? Why did SNCC need to have 'a foreign policy' anyway? No other civil rights organization had a position on the Middle East, and there were clear reasons for that. A good deal of their financial support came from mainstream liberals, quite often from progressive elements of the Jewish community. In those circles, anything other than unquestioning support of Zionist policis was unthinkable, taboo. Apparently, the Palestinians were nonpeople. The blatant injustices they endured at the hands of America's client state were never to be discussed. and the Palestinian resistance? Simple 'terrorists.' Edited by: rachelcorrie at: 1/7/04 1:04 am
rachelcorrie Registered User (1/7/04 1:32 am) Reply	Silence is tantamount to consent ~~MLK "There comes a time when silence is tantamount to consent." Dr. King "So obviously there would be a price to pay. It would have come down to priorities. But as Dr. King said, 'There's a time when silence is tantamount to consent.' But in any event that discussion never took place. Had the process not been short-circuited, I'm sure the overwhelming sentiment would have been to make a statement, moral statement, on justice for the Palestinian people while trying hard not to offend or alienate our Jewish friends on a personal level. Such a statement, one intended for public distribution, would almost certainly have ben more nuanced. In properly diplomatic language, which the talking paper definitely was not. But you crazy if you think the language would have made any difference politically. This was an orchestrated declaration of war, Jack. [Faye Bellamy: 'When folks were discussing the paper in the office, I can remmber thinking, "This here is crazy. Politically it makes no sense to abandon one base before developing a new one." But people didn't seem too concerned about that. At least not in my hearing. So I didn't raise the question. No, actually I did once briefly with Ivanhoe. He said that if SNCC ever became too concerned purely with its survival, it would no longer be SNCC. No longer honest. Where was it written that SNCC should last forever? Words to that effect. After that I didn't raise the question.] "I've often said loking back, that it was all inevitable, SNCC being what it was. Look, when we took on white supremacy and the Klan, we were attacked, but we survived. We took on the president and the National Demodratic Party and survived that. When we opposed the war and the draft, we were really attacked, but survived even that. But dare to open our mouths on Zionism? That one you didn't mess with and survive. That was the lesson the Zionist thought police meant for us to learn in 1967. But we are still here. On this one, history will certainly be the judge. That, you can depend on. "Since those (1967) events, I am proud to say that I have never ceased to speak out and work for justice for the Palestinian people. Consequently the attacks---on me personally and increasingly on my people---have been incessant. Here I mean scurrilous accusations of 'anti-Semitism,' by which you are meant to understand a primitive and bigoted hatred of all things Jewish. The Jews as a people and Judaism as a religion and culture. Gimme a break. That ol' dawg just won't hunt. It is the height of intellectual dishonesty and more of an insult to your inteligence than it is to me or my people. However, it is one thing to try to discredit me, it is quite another to besmirch my people. Now that I do not play.
rachelcorrie Registered User (1/7/04 2:01 am) Reply	Isaac B. Singer, his love for his people & their culture "Everyone knows my people to be deeply spiritual, loving their God and respecting all religions. There is no way any antireligious speaker can get a hearing from these folks. No way, Jack. Besides which, especially in the United States,my people recognize a deep bond with Judaism, one that springs from the Hebrew scriptures of the Old Testament. "Of course thee is a strain of ugly anti-Jewish religious bigotry in the United States. But have you known a single African ever to burn or bomb a synagogue, desecrate a Jewish tombstone, print swastikas on a Jewish door, or establish any restrictive quotas? C'mon, stop the nonsense. "For myself? I feel absolutely no need to respond to transparently politically motivated charges of personal 'anti-Semitism.' I am content to let my life speak for itself. "My party, the All-African People's Revolutionary Party, and I contiue and will continue to struggle in support of the just cause of the Palestinians. In the process I've worked and corresponded with a great many observant Jews, some of whom were Israelis, with even a few rabbis among them. Decent and honorable people who refuse to dehumanize their Palestinian neighbors; deplore the military occupation of Palestinian lands; and are heartsick at the spiraling and unnecessary cycle of violence that has resulted from these policies. These decent and honoable Jews resist the militaristic the policies of the state as much for the harm they do to the Palestinians as for the moral threat they see them representing to the highest moral values of traditional Judaism. "It was at an international conference in Libya in 1976 that I first heard G. Neuberger say, 'If one is a good Jew, one cannot be a Zionist. If one is a Zionist, one cannot be a Jew,' I myself would not presume to originate such a judgement, though I have quoted it. What I will say however, is that clearly one can be a good Jew without being a Zionist, and that being anti-Zionist does not make one necessarily anti-Semitic. For I have seen with my own eyes the terrible human cost---to both Jew and Palestinian in the Holy Land---resulting from the militaristic posture of the cabal of right-wing Zionist extremists there. I have seen pain in the faces of displaced old people and children in the refugee camps. I've heard anguish in the voice of a Jewish mother contemplating the actions of her government. 'How can they do these things? Did we learn nothing from history? "In my formative teenage years I read voraciously. One of my favorite authors was Isaac B. Singer. What I was most impressed by was the love for his people and their culture his work revealed. A number of close friends were Jewish. We visited each other's homes. I experienced Jewish religious culture at the seder table of a friend whose father was a rabbi. Many of these friendships endure to this very day, as has my respect for the culture.
rachelcorrie Registered User (1/7/04 2:21 am) Reply	human rights of Palestinians "Take the question of anti-semitism---hatred of Jews. First sign of any criticism, and apologists for the Zionist state throw the charge around like the small change from a drunken sailor's pockets. That's unwise and couterproductive for two main reasons. One: Something happens. Say Israeli armed forces commit---as all occupying armies tend to do from time to time---an excessively violent act against unarmed civilians. World opinion is outraged. 'See, see,' you shout, 'they hate us because we are Jews.' C'mon. You know that is denial and evasion. At least admit that decent, right-wing thinking people may legitimately be tuned off by some very questionable actions done by the state in your name. That is something that sould certainly concern you. And indeed it does concern many, many Israelis and Jews of conscience. "The other danger: We all know that a pathological hatred of Jews does exist and has been mobilized to truly maleviolent ends in our lifetime. Pogroms in Eastern Europe, near genocide---the slaughter of millions of innocent human beings---by Nazi Germany. But that is precisely why---like racism---the term must not be trivialized and cheapened by being thrown around to loosely. Such misuse diminishes the power of the term, robbing it of the true horror of its historical meaning. I don't believe that is what you intend. "Y'know media labels---anti-Israel, pro-Palestinian are silly and simplistic. Intended, I'm convinced,to obscure the issues more than anything else. In my own case, I'm not pro-Palestinian. I'm pro international law, human rights, and simple justice. Am I anti-Jewish? No, I'm strongly anticolonial occupation, population displacement, military aggression, and injustice everywhere. "So I can tell the world: I am not now, have ever been, nor can ever be anti-Semitic or anti-Judaic. However, I am, and will be unto death, anti-Zionist. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ You might wish to read Stokely Carmichael's Ready for Revolution. The extraordinary length of his obituary in the New York Times, a half page, is rserved only for presidents of the country and very few others. Edited by: rachelcorrie at: 1/7/04 2:27 am
etzchaim Registered User (1/7/04 6:33 am) Reply	Re: human rights of Palestinians The Jews have no right to a homeland, Soulcircle, you know that don't you? I think you should read more Martin Luther King Jr.
soulcircle Registered User (1/7/04 10:53 am) Reply	the night he was killed Hello Guests and All, etchaim, do you have a button being pushed here? please don't put words in my mouth i find that statement about the Jews rights of yours to be ........ the only one that i know who has no right to a "homeland" is me.... the way I read your "constitution" if you wish to further engage me about Martin Luther King maybe that is a better topic i listened to him give a speech live up close and personal the night Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. was killed i was at an SCLC meeting, it's where I first heard he'd been shot, we watched and heard together that Brother Martin was dead my heart sobs to this day one love, sobcircle/rachel corrie Edited by: soulcircle at: 1/7/04 2:25 pm
etzchaim Registered User (1/8/04 6:27 am) Reply	This is Martin Luther King, all of it. Not Etzchaim. "Anti-Zionism = Anti-Semitism" - Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. ". . . You declare, my friend, that you do not hate the Jews, you are merely 'anti-Zionist.' And I say, let the truth ring forth from the high mountain tops, let it echo through the valleys of God's green earth: When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews--this is God's own truth. "Antisemitism, the hatred of the Jewish people, has been and remains a blot on the soul of mankind. In this we are in full agreement. So know also this: anti-Zionist is inherently antisemitic, and ever will be so. "Why is this? You know that Zionism is nothing less than the dream and ideal of the Jewish people returning to live in their own land. The Jewish people, the Scriptures tell us, once enjoyed a flourishing Commonwealth in the Holy Land. From this they were expelled by the Roman tyrant, the same Romans who cruelly murdered Our Lord. Driven from their homeland, their nation in ashes, forced to wander the globe, the Jewish people time and again suffered the lash of whichever tyrant happened to rule over them. "The Negro people, my friend, know what it is to suffer the torment of tyranny under rulers not of our choosing. Our brothers in Africa have begged, pleaded, requested--DEMANDED the recognition and realization of our inborn right to live in peace under our own sovereignty in our own country. "How easy it should be, for anyone who holds dear this inalienable right of all mankind, to understand and support the right of the Jewish People to live in their ancient Land of Israel. All men of good will exult in the fulfilment of God's promise, that his People should return in joy to rebuild their plundered land. This is Zionism, nothing more, nothing less. "And what is anti-Zionist? It is the denial to the Jewish people of a fundamental right that we justly claim for the people of Africa and freely accord all other nations of the Globe. It is discrimination against Jews, my friend, because they are Jews. In short, it is antisemitism. "The antisemite rejoices at any opportunity to vent his malice. The times have made it unpopular, in the West, to proclaim openly a hatred of the Jews. This being the case, the antisemite must constantly seek new forms and forums for his poison. How he must revel in the new masquerade! He does not hate the Jews, he is just 'anti-Zionist'! "My friend, I do not accuse you of deliberate antisemitism. I know you feel, as I do, a deep love of truth and justice and a revulsion for racism, prejudice, and discrimination. But I know you have been misled--as others have been--into thinking you can be 'anti-Zionist' and yet remain true to these heartfelt principles that you and I share. Let my words echo in the depths of your soul: When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews--make no mistake about it." Edited by: etzchaim at: 1/8/04 8:30 am
etzchaim Registered User (1/8/04 6:32 am) Reply	Re: the night he was killed You know what, soulcircle? I honestly don't care about your heart sobbing. I wish some wisdom and less emotion from you. Two States working together. Two peoples working together. Muslims recognizing the right of the Jews to a homeland. When the Arab lands put Israel on their maps, and teach their children to accept the existence of the State of Israel, there will be progress towards peace. REAL PEACE and not the 'revolution' of a suicide-cult driven currupt autocracy. Peace, my friend. True peace. Pray for an Arab Gandhi who doesn't get snuffed out before he (or she? highly doubtful in their current cultural conditions) can have a least a slight effect. God help us. Pray for sanity in the Muslim world, for them, as well as us. If the SNCC was truly for non-violence, would they be advocating a violent revolution? I think not. The undercurrents of what we repress and do not wish to accept within ourselves is projected onto the 'other'. In this case, the 'other' is the Jews, classically the 'other' in the Christian influenced world (I'm not talking about the real practicing truly peace loving Christians, here). Hatred for Jews is latent, unconscious and endemic to much of the Christian world. It's part of our culture and has been pushed into our collective unconscious so that it erupts in strange and underhanded ways. Jews suffer from it as well. Have you any idea of how many Jews are embarassed about their Jewish heritage and out do the rest of America in being American? When I was converting I was repeatedly told by born Jews that they had no idea why any one would want to be Jewish. My God... Unconscious, endemic and projected. Fantasies. The Jews are controlling the media, they are taking over the world, the Protocols of Zion is a best-selling book in Arab countries. The planned take-over by a Jewish Kabal of the world. Zionist expansionism. PUT IT TOGETHER SOULCIRCLE! It's hatred and fantasy. If we are truly trying to bring peace to the world, silence in the face of Suicide-bombers and those who hate freely in the name of rightiousness IS support for hatred and violence. Sharon's government will be voted out when the blind killing and hatred stops and the Palestinians and Muslim world starts to accept the "other", in this case the Jews who are Dhimis and insult the Muslim world by boldly declaring their right to have a State in the midst of MUSLIM RULED LAND, because that is THEIR land, the land of their fathers and mothers they were pushed out of by a succession of violent conquerors, including the Arabs from Arabia. Take some time to learn about how the cultural situation in Arab lands supports blood libels when pride is affected, including the murdering of ones own children if the family pride is injured. This is real and violent and should not be supported. The suicide-cult is real and deadly and growing deeper and in the name of peace, should not be supported. Negotiations should be supported with REAL efforts to stop the violence. Misguided and flaky devotion to those perceived as the 'underdog' needs to stop, if peace is really going to be brought to this area. The Arabs are using the Left. Stop emoting. Collapse the Right Hand and the Left Hand into the Center. That is where the access to true Wisdom is found. That is where Truth is. Edited by: etzchaim at: 1/8/04 7:22 am
soulcircle Registered User (1/8/04 7:47 am) Reply	Re: the night he was killed Hello Guests and All, etzchaim, you alone are allowed to emote? in the first line of your first response you use the anger icon with red face and horns and aren't emoting? C'mon. etzchaim you say all the following: "Why is this? You know that Zionism is nothing less than the dream and ideal of the Jewish people returning to live in their own land. This is Zionism, nothing more, nothing less. Two States working together. Two peoples working together. Muslims recognizing the right of the Jews to a homeland. Pray for an Arab Gandhi who doesn't get snuffed out before he (or she? highly doubtful in their current cultural conditions) can have a least a slight effect. If we are truly trying to bring peace to the world, silence in the face of Suicide-bombers and those who hate freely in the name of rightiousness IS support for hatred and violence. You say all the above etzchaim. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ What about the Jews recognizing the Palestinians and not a Zionism laced with expansionist settlements and militaristic action; what about the non-violent non-cooperation by Palestinians at the wall this last month, the Arab Gahndhi exists; what about your silence in the face of genocide visited on Palestinians by imperialistic Zionism that doesn't equate thoughtful noble Judaism ? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I never told you to not emote. It never hurts being in touch with our feelings, we men are usually told. You use an angry icon and then you also tell me you don't care that I sob. Well, regardless of you conflicting expression, many of us do care about your feelings as well as your analysis and politics. We hear you. I truly care. Ignorance is 50/50. The Israeli bombs from the air and the suicide bombers are equally killing. If Israelis are the chosen people for Israel, then the Palestinian are chosen people too. Before closing, you are the silent one about Israel's warm relationship with South Africa mentioned above. You can't condemn silence on suicide bombing and not address the Israel/South Africa warm bond and the stockpiling and resulting terrorism (the problematic aspect of Zionism) of this. You can't have concern for my silence and not let us address yours. You ask for a Gandhian approach from the Palestinian side, and when Rachel died non-violently she was atacked by people on this board. You can't overlook a non-vioent life lost and also call for an Arab Gandhi, or in this case an American Gandhi in oppostion to militarism and genocide. And what about the three days of non-violent non-cooperation (at the wall) of the Palestinians and them getting shot in that non violent witnessing? You can't have it both ways. caring for all, Dave
etzchaim Registered User (1/8/04 8:28 am) Reply	Re: the night he was killed "in the first line of your first response you use the anger icon with red face and horns and aren't emoting? C'mon." Oy veh. The Jews are demonized as the sons of Satan. I'm making a bad joke at my peoples expense. God forgive me. You don't need to. I really don't care. ----------------------------------------------------------- "etzchaim you say all the following:" If you take the time to look at that post, I did not say that. Martin Luther King, Jr. said that. That post is his speech on anti-Zionism given to the United Nations. ----------------------------------------------------------- Quoting Martin Luther King, Jr.: "Why is this? You know that Zionism is nothing less than the dream and ideal of the Jewish people returning to live in their own land. This is Zionism, nothing more, nothing less." ----------------------------------------------------------- Quoting Etzchaim: "Two States working together. Two peoples working together. Muslims recognizing the right of the Jews to a homeland. Pray for an Arab Gandhi who doesn't get snuffed out before he (or she? highly doubtful in their current cultural conditions) can have a least a slight effect. If we are truly trying to bring peace to the world, silence in the face of Suicide-bombers and those who hate freely in the name of rightiousness IS support for hatred and violence. " Yup. "You say all the above etzchaim." Nope. Martin Luther King, Jr. said about half of it. ----------------------------------------------------------- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "What about the Jews recognizing the Palestinians and not a Zionism laced with expansionist settlements and militaristic action; " I, and numerous Jews support the rights of the Palestinians to live in peace and develop themselves culturally and economically in the lands they live in, whether that be Jordan, Israel, America, a new state that they almost had until Arafat refused to accept and even negotiate further with Barak, or anywhere else they live. I, and many Jews are against the use of force for anything but self-protection. Here lies the rub... "what about the non-violent non-cooperation by Palestinians at the wall this last month, the Arab Gahndhi exists;" I support all non-violent approaches by Palestinians. "what about your silence in the face of genocide visited on Palestinians by imperialistic Zionism that doesn't equate thoughtful noble Judaism ?" Jeez-Louize, can you use any more loaded language that THAT! Genocide? Oy. Come on Soulcircle. I opposed to imperialism, including Jewish imperialism, and I'll add Arab imperialism to that. That's about all this response this statement of yours is worth. ------------------------------------------------------------ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "I never told you to not emote. It never hurts being in touch with our feelings, we men are usually told." Emotional thinking and feelings are quite distinct from each other. Most men are really extrement emotional, especially when they are hiding behind a cold, stoic demeaner. It's your thinking and reasoning processes that are emotional. I've been on both sides of this topic we are talking about, and I've come to my own conclusions based on a centered, non-emotional approach, having looked at both sides. "You use an angry icon and then you also tell me you don't care that I sob." I used the Devil icon because I like to make jokes about Jews being a servant of Satan. It amuses me. I'm a bit odd and perhaps obscure. "Well, regardless of you conflicting expression, many of us do care about your feelings as well as your analysis and politics. We hear you." Or rather, your misunderstanding. You're being passive-aggressive. As far as I can tell, you haven't heard a word I've said. "I truly care. Ignorance is 50/50. The Israeli bombs from the air and the suicide bombers are equally killing." The bombings are directed at known Hamas and other Terrorist leaders. Unfortunately they also kill and hurt others, but the tendency of the Terrorists to hide amongst the innocent adds to this problem. The suicide-bombers are deliberately going after families, older people, babies, God help us. "If Israelis are the chosen people for Israel, then the Palestinian are chosen people too." Hunh? Too vague, Soulcircle. Everyone deserves to live in peace and prosper. The idea of the 'Chosen' is very misunderstood. It means that the Jews were given the responsibility to teach the world about the Oneness and Unity of God and to keep God's commandments. With responsibility comes many other issues, we don't need to go into that, but jealousy is one factor that shows up. Every one wants the 'chosenness' without the responsibility part, it seems. That's a whole other issue. "Before closing, you are the silent one about Israel's warm relationship with South Africa mentioned above." I'm sick of the inane subject. Non-Muslims are not even allowed into Mecca. This is a deliberate ploy to connect Israel to an evil system. Anti-semitic issues within the African American population connect apartheid in South Africa to Israel, but if you actually look at the situation within Israel, Arabs and Jews live together unless there is fear of terror. I know the history, my friend. Israel is acting like any other State that truly needed allies of any kind. I don't like that they were close to South Africa, but, please, with all the weirdness among the different States and the ganging up on Israel of the MANY Arab states, who have appalling civil rights records, and you want me to take issue with this? Try to be less one sided. The UN put the refugees into the tent camps and the PLO keeps them there for political reasons. I don't have time or the inclination to continue this debate. There has been no genicide by the Israelis. That is a farce. Do you have any idea about the history of the different peoples in this area? Genecide has occured and it has not been Israel that engaged in it. You parrot propoganda like you ate it for breakfast. "You can't condemn silence on suicide bombing and not address the Israel/South Africa warm bond and the stockpiling and resulting terrorism (the problematic aspect of Zionism) of this." Every culture has problems and I truly believe we should work on them. I have a completely different take on these issues than you do. I'm glad the South Africans abolished the system. I wish people would stop projecting on the Jews. "You can't have concern for my silence and not let us address yours." Re: Silence: I was responding to your posts above in relation to the SNCC statements about silence. I feel I've addressed my "silence" issue. I'm rarely silent, y'know. You are doing an aweful lot of projecting, because you do not know what my actual opinions are on these subjects. I do not support what you are claiming I support and, really, it's a devil Icon. I'm being an evil Jew. It's a sick joke I like to make out my jadedness with these issues. "You ask for a Gandhian approach from the Palestinian side, and when Rachel died non-violently she was atacked by people on this board." I agree that she was a misguided young woman, like I believe you are also misguided. "You can't overlook a non-vioent life lost and also call for an Arab Gandhi, or in this case an American Gandhi in oppostion to militarism and genocide." Oh please. "And what about the three days of non-violent non-cooperation (at the wall) of the Palestinians and them getting shot in that non violent witnessing?" I quit listening to the news awhile ago because it makes me angry. I'm sorry that people were hurt and/or killed. The wall is going up to protect the Israelis from further acts of terrorism. I hope it works. Do you emote so when Israelis are killed? I've sort of gotten used to it and pray more for a peaceful solution. I have very little hope. Look at how we are arguing? I have very little hope.
etzchaim Registered User (1/8/04 8:32 am) Reply	Martin Luther King, Jr.'s speech to the UN Just to reiterate, Soulcircle, the post that starts "Anti-Zionism = Racism" is a speech given my Martin Luther King, Jr. to the UN. I did not write it. Are we clear?
etzchaim Registered User (1/8/04 8:41 am) Reply	Ending 'discussion' Soulcircle, we understand that we disagree. I have said all I need to say. I will not respond to this anymore. Peace, and Wisdom.
soulcircle Registered User (1/8/04 8:42 am) Reply	pro international law equals pro international law "Y'know media labels---anti-Israel, pro-Palestinian are silly and simplistic. Intended, I'm convinced,to obscure the issues more than anything else. In my own case, I'm not pro-Palestinian. I'm pro international law, human rights, and simple justice. Am I anti-Jewish? No, I'm strongly anticolonial occupation, population displacement, military aggression, and injustice everywhere. "So I can tell the world: I am not now, have ever been, nor can ever be anti-Semitic or anti-Judaic. However, I am, and will be unto death, anti-Zionist. the above by Kwame Ture ~~a man who walked 150 miles with Dr. King and who was tear gassed with Dr. King for human rights. A man who like me was in prison as Dr. King was for human rights Again: "Y'know media labels---anti-Israel, pro-Palestinian are silly and simplistic. Intended, I'm convinced,to obscure the issues more than anything else. In my own case, I'm not pro-Palestinian. I'm pro international law, human rights, and simple justice. Am I anti-Jewish? No, I'm strongly anticolonial occupation, population displacement, military aggression, and injustice everywhere. "So I can tell the world: I am not now, have ever been, nor can ever be anti-Semitic or anti-Judaic. However, I am, and will be unto death, anti-Zionist.
etzchaim Registered User (1/8/04 11:02 am) Reply	The Protocols www.religionnewsblog.com/548-.html
soulcircle Registered User (1/8/04 12:33 pm) Reply	since you're still in the coversation Hello Guests and All, etzchaim, I see above where you wrote: The bombings are directed at known Hamas and other Terrorist leaders. Let's hope they start aiming the bullets at the "Hamas and other terrorist leaders." A 5-year-old [Palestinian] was gunned down just before Christmas. From the Toronto Start, January 8, 2004: It is disturbingly easy to lose track of those who have fallen over the past few weeks in Nablus, the largest city in the West Bank and, reportedly, the breeding ground for most of the suicide bombers who have terrorized Israelis. A search of various databases turns up mind-boggling headlines that change every day, and sometimes every hour. "Three Palestinian militants killed by Israeli patrols during West Bank sweep'' read one yesterday, which followed another "Israeli troops kill Palestinian teenager in West Bank'' the day before and another "Five Palestinians killed in clashes" on Monday. We're looking at perhaps two dozen Palestinians dead and maybe 250 more injured since mid-December when the town came under a virtually uninterrupted Israeli military blockade. A 5-year-old was gunned down just before Christmas. This week, a 15-year-old was shot dead because, as IDF troops said, he was hurling concrete blocks at them from a rooftop. His 17-year-old cousin was killed during the burial because, as the Jerusalem Post reported, "soldiers spotted an armed Palestinian participating in the funeral." Dave
etzchaim Registered User (1/9/04 8:01 am) Reply	There is something to be said for accepting reality Dave, re: your private passive-aggressive email to me: Creveld, in his way, is right. If you want to prevent that, I strongly suggest you work towards understanding that if the Palestinians continue to support suicide-bombing and continue to refuse to return to the negotiation table and continue to not accept that they really, really do need to accept the enemy within, and live alongside Israel and make true peace, and they continue to play into Sharons hands, they will continue the losing game they have been busy losing since the 1800's. The Jews will vote Sharon out of government and vote in someone else like Rabin or Barak if they do not feel threatened, and then the real work of restoring civil rights to the Palestinians can begin. They haven't had any for centuries, under Turkish, British or Israeli rule. Democracy can work wonders if people are willing to live under it and fight for their civil rights in peaceful ways. The whole world is obsessively watching the Jews and pressure can be put on the Israelis, IF and only IF the Palestinians were not so busy shooting themselves in the feet by sending in the suicide bombers and failing to accept the reality that there is a non-Muslim state in existence that actually may be good for the development of the regions economy, and get rid of Arafat while electing a moderate who is willing to work along-side the Israelis. I repeat, the Jews will vote Sharon out of office and elect another person like Rabin and Barak, if they start to believe that the Palestinians aren't hell-bent on their destruction. If the Palestinians do not pull their collective heads out of their collective self-destructive butts, they will simply continue to lose, and the Jews are pissed enough about always being the worlds scapegoat, that they, like most people, will continue to defend themselves. The fact that they are GOOD at defending themselves, is not really their fault. They have survived attempt after attempt at annialation and degredation, only to regain their strength and become stronger. You want to weaken the Jews? Help stop the attacks against them. Most people just want to be left alone. Please stop sending me private passive-aggresive emails. Edited by: etzchaim at: 1/9/04 8:03 am
etzchaim Registered User (1/9/04 9:01 am) Reply	Re: There is something to be said for accepting reality Sharon, btw, is a DAMN GOOD general. He will indeed win, if allowed. That's precisely WHY he was elected.
soulcircle Registered User (1/9/04 10:00 am) Reply	the email extchaim is referring to Hello Guests and All, RE: As Stokely Carmichael states in his autobiography, "I'm strongly anticolonial occupation, population displacement, military aggression, and injustice everywhere." etzchaim refers to the following email I sent to her inbox, containing this story: (IAP News) -- An Israeli professor and military historian hinted that Israel could avenge the holocaust by annihilating millions of Germans and other Europeans. Speaking during an interview which was published in Jerusalem Friday, Professor Martin Van Crevel said Israel had the capability of hitting most European capitals with nuclear weapons. "We possess several hundred atomic warheads and rockets and can launch them at targets in all directions, perhaps even at Rome. Most European capitals are targets of our air force." Creveld, a professor of military history at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem, pointed out that "collective deportation" was Israel's only meaningful strategy towards the Palestinian people. "The Palestinians should all be deported. The people who strive for this (the Israeli government) are waiting only for the right man and the right time. Two years ago, only 7 or 8 per cent of Israelis were of the opinion that this would be the best solution, two months ago it was 33 per cent, and now, according to a Gallup poll, the figure is 44 percent." Creveld said he was sure that Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon wanted to deport the Palestinians. "I think it's quite possible that he wants to do that. He wants to escalate the conflict. He knows that nothing else we do will succeed." Asked if he was worried about Israel becoming a rogue state if it carried out a genocidal deportation against Palestinians, Creveld quoted former Israeli Defense Minister Moshe Dayan who said "Israel must be like a mad dog, too dangerous to bother." Creveld argued that Israel wouldn't care much about becoming a rogue state. "Our armed forces are not the thirtieth strongest in the world, but rather the second or third. We have the capability to take the world down with us. And I can assure you that that this will happen before Israel goes under." Dave Edited by: soulcircle at: 1/9/04 10:13 am

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