human rights for Palestinians..from Ready for Revolution

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soulcircle Registered User (1/9/04 10:11 am) Reply	private passive-aggresive emails Hello, You had sent me two or three emails etzchaim, which I won't go to pains to label negatively (they were good emails), as you have gone to the trouble to label mine. My email was in response to yours. As I also brought up, serious issues such as these---take closer to two years of discussion and not one week. Again, as I did in a private email, I ask which serious issues do we find in the top ten or five, at this time. The spectrum of Palestinian response to the creation of a nation upon their land in 1948. The voting habits of Israel. Those who want all Palestinians deported. Thise who want one state as a solution. Sharon Books and authors to read. Thank you for the protocol link I read it. Dave
soulcircle Registered User (1/9/04 10:29 am) Reply	genocide Hello Guests and All, when I wrote: *Quote:* "what about your silence in the face of genocide visited on Palestinians by imperialistic Zionism that doesn't equate thoughtful noble Judaism ?" extchaim wrote: *Quote:* Jeez-Louize, can you use any more loaded language that THAT! one of my references from Israeli sources on genocide is: *Quote:* Asked if he was worried about Israel becoming a rogue state if it carried out a genocidal deportation against Palestinians, Creveld quoted former Israeli Defense Minister Moshe Dayan who said "Israel must be like a mad dog, too dangerous to bother." [Israeli Professor Creveld] also wrote: *Quote:* Creveld, a professor of military history at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem, pointed out that "collective deportation" was Israel's only meaningful strategy towards the Palestinian people. the full reference and the context is in this thread's 1/09/2004 10:00AM post Dave ******************************************** Edited by: soulcircle at: 1/9/04 10:34 am
etzchaim Registered User (1/9/04 11:13 am) Reply	Oh please The only reason I emailed you those two emails were because you sent an email wishing to discuss my "denial of the Palestinians". I am truly evil. I only think the Palestinians should be allowed to live peacefully with civil rights in their own state, and do not blame the Israelis in total for what is happening, prefering to believe that both sides are at fault and need to come to the table and try to work it out, not that I believe that this is currently possible. One email mentioned that I didn't wish to argue this with you, and I'm wondering at my current insanity for doing so now. I will go bang my head against a brick wall soon, because I will accomplish more by doing that than continuing this 'conversation'. Obviously I'm taking your bait and currently feeling stupid for doing so. With every response, I get a deeper and deeper feeling of a self-rightious finger-pointing because anyone who disagrees with you, Soulcircle, in an uncaring bast-rd, and you'll whine and go all poetic about how you care and we all care, and we really don't know how much we care, and don't we all know how evil the Israeli's are and what about the Americans, they're evil too. Go save the world from the evilness of Israel and the US. They are plotting to take over the world. It's real, and we care, so much so that our hearts are sobbing, but we can't listen to what the other person is saying because we are sobbing so at the injustice of the genocidal nazi Israelis. And to think that I actually believed that negotiations could work! What hubris! I'm really just calling you a pain in the ass and I'll leave it at that. You've managed to self-rightiously and obsessively finger-point and adamently not listen or try to engage in a normal conversation, your way to losing a friendship. Cheers, Etzy, genocidal maniac Edited by: etzchaim at: 1/9/04 12:13 pm
redpurusha Registered User (1/9/04 12:29 pm) Reply	Re: Oh please If you guys want a truthful, no holds-barred overview in what is going on in the political world watch Late Nigth with Conan O'Brian. As a bonus, it's also hilarious. Some of the key political players he interviews are George Bush, Saddam, and "the Governator" Arnold Schwarzenegger. Here are some samples. Interview with president George W. Bush. Conan> "Sir, what about the weapons of mass destruction that you claimed Iraq had in possession. You have to admit you could not find any." Bush> (with accent) "Conan, we did find them. Recently some of our troops broke into one of Saddam's houses. Inside the kitchen was a refrigerator, and in it was... an open can of mustard. Conan> "So what?" Bush> "We also seized a vehicle, in which, upon examination, we were able to find a highly flamable liquid -gas." Conan> "So what's wrong with that? Every vehicle has gasoline in it." Bush> "Conan, from my knowledge, mustard and gas are the two main ingrediants for... mustard gas." (lol) Interview with Arnold. Conan> Recently you got pelted by an egg, what do you have to say about that? Arnold> (with accent) "No Conan. I crushed the egg... I crushed the egg into a thousand pieces with my hard pecs!" Other quotes... Bush> (speaking of Iraq) "the former republic of Iraq. Now known as Verizon Wireless, Inc." Theser interviews are one of the funniest and cleverest pieces of comedy I've ever seen. Great laughs... and you get a general idea what is going on in the world. Highly recommended.
soulcircle Registered User (1/9/04 1:31 pm) Reply	will be treasured Thank you Thank you The moments I spent roaring with laughter with you and Conan will be treasured for a long time Conan will be on in my home tonight Thank you Laughing Thank you Conan's circles of of candidly calling confusion. "confusion." ~~Confucious on Conan Edited by: soulcircle at: 1/9/04 1:33 pm
Ringbearer7 Registered User (1/9/04 7:49 pm) Reply	Re: human rights for Palestinians..from Ready for Revolution "There's been one issue in particular---the question of justice for the Palestinian people---on which I seem to have made my most implacable enemies. So be it. I'm proud of my support over many years for the human rights of the Palestinians. "This issue first surfaced publicly in 1967, just as I was stepping down from the SNCC chairmanship, but the roots were planted much earlier. A lot of nonsense---misinformation and disinformation---has been written about this." It is not at all surprising that Carmichael would have a change of heart about Israel in 1967. He was likely following marching orders from his Soviet friends who were upset that Israel had bested Soviet client state Syria along with co-aggressors Egypt, Jordon and Iraq in the 6-day war and consequently severed diplomatic ties with Israel. The historical motivation of the far Left's support for the Palestinians has much less to do with compassion for the Palestinian people and much more to do with their support of Leftist dictatorships around the world. Edited by: Ringbearer7 at: 1/9/04 8:37 pm
Ringbearer7 Registered User (1/9/04 8:18 pm) Reply	Re: genocide Take a look at at a couple Palestinian goverment websites www.mopa.gov.ps/ www.industry.gov.ps/ Do you see any room for Israel on those maps? What do you think this means? The "Palestinian Liberation Organization" was created in 1964. At that time the Gaza strip was held by Egypt and the West Bank by Jordon. Don't you find it strange that instead of attacking Egypt and Jordon to free the occuppied "Palestinian" terroritories that they instead began attacking Israel? Israel did not capture the West Bank and Gaza strip until 1967 during the 6-day war. The "Liberation" in PLO has nothing to do with liberating "Palestinian" lands but more to do with "liberating" Jews from their physical bodies in this Earthly plane - just as Amin al-Hussein, Mufti of Jerusalem and mentor of Yassar Arafat, had conspired with Adolf Hitler. See www.palestinefacts.org/pf..._mufti.php Edited by: Ringbearer7 at: 1/9/04 8:59 pm
Ringbearer7 Registered User (1/9/04 8:29 pm) Reply	Re: genocide On the day that Yassar Arafat signed the Declaration of Principles (see www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH00q00on) on the White House lawn in 1993, he went onto Jordanian TV to explain his actions. He said: "Since we cannot defeat Israel in war, we do this in stages. We take any and every territory that we can of Palestine, and establish a sovereignty there, and we use it as a springboard to take more. When the time comes, we can get the Arab nations to join us for the final blow against Israel." Now, how can one expect Israel to react to this sort of duplicity. Arafat obviously is not acting in good faith in achieving peace with Israel and yet he has broad support from the Palestinian people. Any ideas why? Edited by: Ringbearer7 at: 1/9/04 8:29 pm
Xnun Registered User (1/10/04 5:48 am) Reply	Re: This is Martin Luther King, all of it. Not Etzchaim. Etzchaim, thank you for including this quote of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.! Before that I never really knew what he stood for. Now I know, at least part of it. And the quote is simply beautiful (though beautiful in a painful way). I didn't even attempt to read every word of your dialog with soulcircle, but your contributions and also those of others about this subject recently have helped me a lot understand more about what's going on between Jews and Arabs. Thanks!
Ringbearer7 Registered User (1/10/04 9:04 pm) Reply	The Soviet Union and Yassar Arafat/PLO Here is an interesting article (Wall Street Journal) from a high-ranking Romanian intelligence officer regarding the ties between Yassar Arafat, the PLO, and the Soviet Union: www.likud.nl/press298.html The Soviet masters are gone but some are still playing the game they set in motion. Edited by: Ringbearer7 at: 1/10/04 9:05 pm
soulcircle Registered User (1/10/04 9:14 pm) Reply	again "Y'know media labels---anti-Israel, pro-Palestinian are silly and simplistic. Intended, I'm convinced,to obscure the issues more than anything else. In my own case, I'm not pro-Palestinian. I'm pro international law, human rights, and simple justice. Am I anti-Jewish? No, I'm strongly anticolonial occupation, population displacement, military aggression, and injustice everywhere. I'm not pro-Palestinian this is from the autobiography of a man who was as close to Dr. King as could be imagined again: "Y'know media labels---anti-Israel, pro-Palestinian are silly and simplistic. Intended, I'm convinced,to obscure the issues more than anything else. In my own case, I'm not pro-Palestinian. I'm pro international law, human rights, and simple justice. Am I anti-Jewish? No, I'm strongly anticolonial occupation, population displacement, military aggression, and injustice everywhere.
etzchaim Registered User (1/11/04 12:27 pm) Reply	Internal conspiracies Yes, Dave, everyone who is close to someone is exactly like them. This, in SRF-speak, is known as being a "Direct Disciple". The most "Direct Disciples" are sort of like those who grew up in SRF under the Guru's direct teaching, and ran races with them, etc. These "Direct Disciples" tell people that the organization is divinely guided by Avatars, and it is, because they are saying it is. Dave, try to understand how much you are still under the sway of 'cult-think' and doing a whole lot of transferring because you are unable to break away. In what ways are you feeling 'occupied' by the 'chosen people'? I can imagine that this is a very complex family situation for you. It is quite noble to be concerned about other peoples plights, but when we become obsessed with anything, such as conspiracy theories and the absolute guilt of a particular people, it may be an indication of personal issues that need to be addressed but are being denied, hence you are accusing others of 'denying' the oppressed. Perhaps it is a denial of the 'repressed'? Only you can decide. At this point, you are not even talking to us, you are just repeating what someone else has said, claiming they have some kind of authority through association. Somehow, this reminds me of repeating something that a Swami says, over and over again, because of that Swami's association with someone else.
chrisparis Registered User (1/13/04 9:37 am) Reply	Re: the email extchaim is referring to "i) Stokely Carmichael reached a new height of international fame when he travelled in the summer of 1967, to the Cuban held Latin American Solidarity Organization Conference (LASO). On his way to Cuba he stopped in Britain. There Carmichael allegedly said, "If the British did not accept our principles, I would burn down their homes and factories." While at the LASO Conference, he said, quoting from Major Ernesto Che Guevara, the Cuban guerrilla leader, "Hatred is an element of the struggle, transforming (man) into an effective violent, selective and cold killing machine." In reference to Guevara on guerrilla warfare, Carmichael said, "You are an inspiration not only to black people inside the United States, but to the liberation struggle around the world. Please keep on fighting, you are helping to inspire us. Do not despair, my comrade, we shall overcome." When asked whether Black Power can be equated to communism, he answered: "Communism can be many things -- Russian, Czech, Yugoslav, Cuban. The system we like best is the Cuban." About the CPUSA, he said, "There are no proletarians in the U.S. Communist Party. It is the party of the rich." He said, "Forty per cent of the troops in Vietnam are Negro, and some good may come of it because when they come back they will be trained to kill in the streets." The American Negro's battle, he said, must be fought on two fronts: "The fight against racism and the fight against capitalism. Racism is a result of capitalism." According to Reuters, Carmichael envisions the possible assassination of President Johnson and British Prime Minister Wilson as acts of vengeance for the murder of Negro leaders. Carmichael said his three greatest heroes were assassinated black nationalist leader Malcolm X, Ernesto (Che) Guevara, and Mao Tse-tung. " Hey Dave! You're RIGHT! This guy sounds JUST like the kind of person we ALL out to be emulating! Killing people in the streets, the Cuban system of government is the one we like best, ALL sounds SO good to me! So tell me, what is it that makes people think that to show ones spiritual evolution we should be commie sympathizers and supporters? What makes anybody except a certifiable cretin think that a spiritual person would harbor a shred of sympathy for Chairman Mao, who engineered a famine that killed MILLIONS of human beings in China? At what point did being a yogi, a mystic, a saint equate with signing on with a marxist ideology that, let's face it folks, denies the existence of the God we are trying to attain realization of? I for one truly reject, decry and denounce any philosophy that makes slaves of entire populations. I renounce political policies that take the fruits of one's labors and turns them over to people one has never met, because it robs one of the opportunity of the good karma that arises from personal charity. And I certainly reject, in all its forms, those systems of government that reject God and put MAN in his place on the altars of the world. Furthemore, I reject, denounce and decry the supporters of those systems of government, Stokley Carmichael among them; and I applaud those who have had the courage to take a stand against them, often at great personal sacrifice and peril, like Whitaker Chambers. Dave, when you come in here and wave a red banner in support of hate-filled revolutionaries like Rachel Corrie and Stokley Carmichael, you implicitily reject everything the gentle saints of all religions stood or stand for, and condemn yourself as a supporter of tyranny and oppression. Edited by: chrisparis at: 1/13/04 9:44 am
soulcircle Registered User (1/13/04 3:18 pm) Reply	you partly describe the military/billionaire/corporation Hello Guests, All, You partly describe the military/billionaire/corporation complex, you're welcome to continue. I rest my case. the above post states: *Quote:* I renounce political policies that take the fruits of one's labors and turns them over to people one has never met retiringcircle Edited by: soulcircle at: 1/13/04 3:18 pm
Ringbearer7 Registered User (1/13/04 10:37 pm) Reply	Re: the email extchaim is referring to Excellent post Chrisparis.
Ringbearer7 Registered User (1/13/04 11:00 pm) Reply	Re: again "Am I anti-Jewish? No, I'm strongly anticolonial occupation, population displacement, military aggression, and injustice everywhere." Everywhere? Really now? The USSR and Communist China are guilty of all the above on a very large scale. Did Carmichael speak out against these two offenders? Did he by any chance fight for the liberation of the Tibetan people from their Han (Chinese) occupiers? Sorry Dave, the 60's are over. Peace and Love, RB
chrisparis Registered User (1/14/04 8:01 am) Reply	Re: you partly describe the military/billionaire/corporation "You partly describe the military/billionaire/corporation complex, you're welcome to continue. I rest my case." Wrong, Dave, I'm describing liberals who pass through gigantic tax packages that bankroll failing social programs that are really nothing more than enormous patronage scams. I come from Chicago, and watched the original Daley machine at work, and it's the same old scam: "I give you money, you give me your political support. You don't give me your political support, and I cut you off". You tell me how the bloated welfare system has ever helped anyone out of poverty. It keeps people floating up to their chin in desperation, and it takes money out of the hands of consumers who could be spending it to create more jobs. At what point did we sign on to government deciding how close to half of our incomes (federal, state, local, sales, and use taxes considered together) would be spent? At what point did we sign on to allowing government to take half (or more) of what we have spent our entire lives building, away from our families when we die? And who is responsible for this? Who has instigated all of these social welfare programs that don't work? It wasn't the wealthy (who pay close to 90% of all the taxes that GET paid in this country). It wasn't the corporations who PAY taxes, and don't receive government doles. It was pseudo-socialists on the left, Dave, the same people who left Alger Hiss in place in the State Department while he gave classified documents to the soviets, and who left Harry Dexter White in place in the Treasury department, while he killed a loan to nationalist China which, in turn, allowed the communists (backed by the Soviet Union) to take over China, and who left Lachlan Currie and CLaus Fuchs and, well, you get the idea. (All those named here have been identified in the Venona transcripts as soviet intelligence sources. Venona is the name of decoded transmissions from the soviet intelligence apparatus in the United States to the Soviet Union). In other words, it was exactly the same kind of left wing dupes (or worse) that Rachel Corrie was well on her way to growing up to be if she hadn't ended her life prematurely while supporting terrorism in Israerl. Ringbearer is right Dave, the '60's are over, and, bit by bit and piece by piece, the lies of the left are being unmasked. And people like me, who once joined in campus protests with the Young Sparticists, are having the scales ripped off our eyes, and we're not particularly happy to see how we were duped, and how close we came to locking manacles on to our own necks and handing some russian guy the keys. So, if you like, lets continue the talk about the mystical. But don't expect to get off scott free when you start extolling the virtues of Rachel Corrie or Stokley Carmichael, or any of the other stalinist, maoist advocates of murder in the streets.
redpurusha Registered User (1/15/04 9:52 am) Reply	Re: you partly describe the military/billionaire/corporation So, the solution was to put this guy in office?
etzchaim Registered User (1/15/04 10:14 am) Reply	Re: you partly describe the military/billionaire/corporation I think both the right and the left are guilty of getting us out of balance and blaming one side or the other is the equivalent of getting stuck in a rut.
chrisparis Registered User (1/17/04 9:42 am) Reply	Re: you partly describe the military/billionaire/corporation "So, the solution was to put this guy in office? " Ya know, I hate to point this out, but "I hate Bush" ISN'T a political position. It isn't even an opinion. It's just a visceral reaction. I would add, it doesn't even begin to address the problems that face the US. And the chimp faces, really, how juvenile. I will say this though: Look over the record, until the republicans took both houses in 1946, country after country fell under Soviet domination. AND: Kennedy got us in to Vietnam, LBJ made it worse and a republican (for all his flaws) got us out. China fell to the communists on Trumans watch (after Harry Dexter White, a soviet spy, effectively killed a U.S. loan to the Chinese Nationalists), Vietnam fell to the communists when a Democratic controlled congress cut off military aid to the south. The Korean war also started under a dem, I think (Truman), and the revolution in Iran (Carter) but a republican president got the hostages out (on his inauguration day, after 444 days of captivity). The same republican president (Reagan) presided over the demise of communist Russia. So, to answer your question, yes, when we have islamic militants flying airplanes into American skyscrapers, I definitely would rather have a republican controlled White House than a democratic controlled one. Edited by: chrisparis at: 1/17/04 9:54 am

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