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Ringbearer7
Registered User
(2/1/04 6:03 pm)
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Re: education and maturing go ever on and on
"hearts and minds that are in pain can seek understanding
and children can be born that aren't blown to bits by suicide bombers, children can be born, not in refuge camps"

Those sound like worthwhile goals that any sane person would like to aspire to. Ok Soulcirle, I am ready - please tell us your solution to the Arab-Israeli confict. I am tired of hearing poetry, sweet sentiment, and the word bombs steathily hidden beneath your literary burka that betray an agenda perhaps not so loving and peaceful as you would have others believe . Please give us the details of how you would bring peace to the region.

Edited by: Ringbearer7 at: 2/1/04 6:04 pm
Ringbearer7
Registered User
(2/1/04 7:48 pm)
Reply
Re: education and maturing go ever on and on
>> Ringbearer: "The war broke out because of the Arab's violent refusal to accept the U.N. partition plan"

Yellowbeard: "Here we have the same logic. Ringbearer says their "violent refusal" of not wanting to sign over their land. You speak of the U.N. here like it's the will of God."

I made a statement of fact in response to your claims that the Jews initiated the 1948 war with a "surprise" attack: If the Arabs had not refused the U.N. partition and violently so, there would not have been the 1948 war and the Palestinians would have had their state for 55+ years now. Contrary to your claims the 1948 war was not set off by a "surprise" Jewish attack. I do not equate U.N. resolutions with the will of God but I think under the circumstances it was not an unreasonable solution to a difficult situation.

Apparently you believe all the land which comprises Israel belongs to the Palestinians-Arabs. What would you have done with Israel and the Jewish people residing there?

Edited by: Ringbearer7 at: 2/1/04 7:55 pm
soulcircle
Registered User
(2/2/04 12:22 am)
Reply
Marshall's Nonviolent Communication: A Language of Life
Hello Guests and All,

Thank You for Your Question Ringbearer7!![/

[former Brahmachari Eduardo is working in the discipline
another former monk, his friend, is also woking in the discipline]
www.heartsawakening.com/

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The discipline:

www.cnvc.org/

Marshall Rosenberg the author of the seminal book, Nonviolent Communication: A Language of Life, has been in the refugee camps and Israel.
There have been more than one discussion about this discipline in the SRFWalrus!

People from the chapel in Richmond are working with him.

He is trying to get Sharon and Arafat in a room with him.

One possible solution is to get Arafat and Sharon in a room with Marshall. I am sure there are others.
War is not an option.

Another solution is to pray like h*ll for all the beings in the world.
And after praying like h*ll, start co-operating with all good community enabling and bridge building energy, co-operate like our lives depend on it, which they do. This planet is a small lonely beautiful place in space. And all we have.

Co-operation is Brother Anandamoy's conclusion in the talk on cassette, Is Peace Possible in Today's World?

Another part of the puzzle is to turn off the TV's.

Another part of the solution is plain living and high thinking. How hard is it to live with bicycles, no more cars---?considering how hard it is to live with cars. A large percent of the pollution in California is from vehicles, in one year alone 10,000 people in this one state die from pollution caused air passage disease. We have a memorial to Vietnam and other wars: more peeps die and are maimed in moving missiles/cars.
Laughing with you all, I hope we aren't the first to die as our bikes collide with trees, or cars during the transition.

Simple common sense, a child can tell us solutions.

And that's the best solution of all---listen to the children

for example read www.freethechildren.org/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
the 12 year old's story, written with the help of Kevin

Free the Children
A Young Man Fights Against Child Labor and Proves That

CHILDREN CAN CHANGE THE WORLD

Craig Kielburger
winner of the Christopher Award
with Kevin Major
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
if you'll be so kind to mail it back, I will mail this easy read to you all, on a first come first served basis.

There is a developing potential solution via Charity Focus
www.charityfocus.org/
join their transforming no dogma inclusive transforming by caring and giving a hand---and see what they are capable of in the future---everyone is a teacher
I spent today with four of Jason Becker's friends partial with efforts and onspiration of Charity Focus.
We were very willing to pass up on TV and the Superbowl to be living the solution. Laughing---didn't know the score til midnight.

Ringbearer7,
and the glaring example,
the "ultimate" solution is for you and me,
with others when best, to find common ground and become the solution.

I learned in Rock n Roll from the Motor City 5
We're either part of the problem or part of the solution, and we have 5 seconds to decide
It's time to kick out the jams all us mf's!

etzchaim ask Ann Arbor/Detroit peeps about 1966 John Sinclair and the Motor City 5. I knew John's brother David the best.
I attended John Sinclair's court trial, briefly.

<heypoet@aol.com>

Thank You for Your Question Ringbearer7!!
I like it when you make my day, I owe you one, yes?

soulcircle/rachelcorrie

soulcircle
Registered User
(2/2/04 1:23 am)
Reply
also to be honest
Hello Ringbearer7.

i am sorry to hear that disagreeable parts of my posts tired you

at times listening is going to be 99% of the solution
it is a sifting through of all the things that push my buttons, that finally lets me hear the common ground that exists

solutions from the insane assylum

soulcircle/rachelcorrie

soulcircle
Registered User
(2/2/04 1:38 am)
Reply
*** humility and loving service ***
Hello Ringbearer7,

laughing as we share a joke
how dare you, ask me?
you ask an insane person for an important solution?
laughing together with you

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
as an insane person i turned to others who share sandwich and soup friendship and conversation with neighbors living on the street

i turned to www.charityfocus.org
and staring in my face was this quote, ['cause truly the solution is one heart at a time, it took this planet a long time to develop and perfect war and strategies of accumulation of power and large nations and wealth
it will take the time to bring one heart at a time to co-operation---two hearts forward, one heart back]

at Charity Focus, this stared me in the face:
Quote:
Through humility and loving service, you can unlock the door of any heart. -- Unknown

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
perhaps the only solution
perhaps a miracle and we'll live to see it
as a child myself, I watched a movie with my family
with the song containing "a hundred million miracles are happening every day"

soulcircle/rachelcorrie/ and if I may For the Children @
www.forthechildren.divine-mother.com/

Edited by: soulcircle at: 2/2/04 1:58 am
chrisparis
Registered User
(2/2/04 8:10 am)
Reply
Re: Sunday comic section
"and chrisparis you are behind in your reading
~~~~~A MUST READ~~~~~~~~
of The People's History of the United States by Howard Zinn
Spot On!"

I know who Howard Zinn is, and I would no more read his history of the US than I would read Stokley Charmicael's guide to race relations or Osama Bin-Ladens guide to urban planning for downtown New York.

Dave, have you been dropping alot of acid lately? You don't seem to be hearing what anyone is saying. You aren't responsive. Your posts deteriorate into whacked out pseudo-poetry and anti-semitic racist screeds, laced with commie agit-prop. What happened to you man?

Edited by: chrisparis at: 2/2/04 10:36 am
soulcircle
Registered User
(2/2/04 9:25 am)
Reply
is he guilty as charged
Hello Guests and All,

Let's see if soulcircle/rachelcorrie/Dave is guilty as charged.
Something for his peers to decide.

chrisparis wrote:

Quote:
You aren't responsive.


Is the search for solutions in my posts above, not responsive to Ringbearer7?

soulcircle/rachelcorrie

rachelcorrie
Registered User
(2/2/04 9:38 am)
Reply
***** humility and loving service*****
Hello Guests and All,

C'mon Dave!

Where's your humility?

And Dave, chrisparis has nailed you.

C'mon Dave admit that your guilty of everything chrisparis says. Confession is doubly good for racists Dave.
And Dave---
the day will come

the day will come Dave
I have a dream Dave
that you will stop your name-calling

and one last prayer for you Dave
will you stop using the race card in every one of your posts?

C'mon Dave they're on to you
and Dave you're behind in your homework
Ringbearer7 is asking you what your solution is?

soulcirce/rachelcorrie




YellowBeard420
Slow Down
(2/2/04 2:42 pm)
Reply
Re: ***** humility and loving service*****
> Ringbearer writes: "Ok Soulcircle, I am ready - please tell us your solution to the Arab-Israeli conflict. I am tired of hearing poetry, sweet sentiment ..."

I realize that this question isn't directed at me, but I would like to suggest that perhaps "hearing poetry and sweet sentiment" is part of the solution.

For instance, we've been disagreeing on who started the conflict. But this question is really for the historians to bicker over. And whatever the answer is, it's really irrelevant. Because it's that "sweet sentiment" which displeases you so, that is the answer.

> Soulcircle: "And after praying like h*ll, start co-operating with all good community enabling and bridge building energy, co-operate like our lives depend on it, which they do. This planet is a small lonely beautiful place in space. And all we have."

This here is the answer.

I would add the planting of seeds. High grade, high yield cannabis seeds to be exact. Yes sir. Not industrial hemp, no, they need the sticky purple, red, sweet smelling lathe of heaven with buds and leaves so laden with THC crystals, that the blessed plants bow to the gods.

They need to set their clocks to 4:20 and pull the plug. Timelessness in God's green garden. This would seal the deal. Peace on earth and good will to man ...

> Chrisparis writes: "... laced with commie agit-prop. ..."

Ummm, the McCarthy years are long gone guy. Let me guess, you're a good 'ol boy, minority-lynching, bible-thumping old school Christian sorta guy?

> Chrisparis: "You don't seem to be hearing what anyone is saying. You aren't responsive."

I'm afraid it's the other way around. All you can hear is hate. You can't hear this other message here because it just doesn't register for you. So you interpret that as being unresponsive.

chrisparis
Registered User
(2/3/04 7:35 am)
Reply
Re: ***** humility and loving service*****
Dear Yellowbeard,

You know, it's really a touching display of ignorance when the left starts yelling about "McCarthyism". It's the standard reply when a person on the right calls things by their proper name. Oddly, from those on the left who bother to stay informed on the subject, McCarthyism isn't a popular charge anymore, and here is why:

In the late '90's Daniel Patrick Moynihan obtained the de-classification of the Venona transcripts, a group of formerly highly classified decryptions of communications between the Soviet intelligence apparatus in the USSR and the Communist Party underground in the United States. It turns out that the US government was highly infiltrated at all levels by people who were turning over classified materials to the Soviets. For example Ethel and Julius Rosenberg actually WERE providing our atomic secrets to the Soviets. That took away one pair of the liberal intelligentsia's favorite pair of "martyrs". The US military was aware of the level of Soviet penetration all along, and didn't tell the (liberal democrat) Presidents Roosevelt or Truman because, well, they didn't trust them.

So, however you may want to feel about McCarthy as a person, it is now clear that he was correct. Furthermore, he was doing the job he had been set by the SENATE. Note the word SENATE, YB. That word SENATE, means he had nothing to do with the HOUSE Unamerican Activites Committee HUAC, which is the favorite thing for him to be accused of. Typical liberal mushy thinking: I can't attack him on the basis of the facts, so I better engage in an ad hominem attack on his personality, or his habits, whatever I can find.

Just like you are doing to me YB

HOW DARE YOU accuse me of being a minority lynching good ol' boy! What do you know about me! I know you like hallucinogens. I know you think the answer to everything is more reefer. You've put that in your posts. What Bible thumping or racism have I engaged in here that you would level such an accusation!

But it's typical of the drug culture, left wing "liberal" jerks like you that, when someone comes along and says they are a conservative, you say "Racist! Homophobe! Mysoginist! Bible thumping bigot!" You can't address me on the facts, so you descend to name calling.

Get bent! YB. Peddle your druggie crap if you want to. I doubt you will find many buyers here.

nagchampa2
Registered User
(2/3/04 9:30 am)
Reply
Re: ***** humility and loving service*****
I believe while we are all busy putting down drugs, we should realize that the writers of the Vedas were using soma wine. Here is what the RgVeda says, but I am moving this tread to Not in the Main Stream, Soma and other drugs:

Edited by: nagchampa2 at: 2/3/04 12:04 pm
chrisparis
Registered User
(3/16/04 8:43 am)
Reply
Happy Anniversary Rachel Corrie
From the WSJ Opinion Journal online:

A Tribute to Rachel Corrie
Thanks for showing us what "peace" really means.

BY RUHAMA SHATTAN
Tuesday, March 16, 2004 12:01 a.m. EST

(Editor's note: On March 16, 2003, 23-year-old Rachel Corrie died in a bulldozer accident in the Gaza town of Rafah.)

Today is the first anniversary of Rachel Corrie's death. I want to thank Corrie for the explosives that flow freely from Egypt to Gaza, via the smuggling tunnels under the Gaza homes that she died defending.

Perhaps it was these explosives that in the year since her martyrdom--oops, death--have been strapped around suicide bombers to blow up city buses and restaurants in Israeli cities, particularly in Jerusalem, killing men, women and schoolchildren (two of them classmates of my daughter and her friend in the February 22, 2004 bombing) and leaving hundreds more widows, orphans and bereaved parents.

On the first anniversary of her death, I want to thank Rachel Corrie for showing Palestinian children how to despise America as she snarled, burned an American flag, and led them in chanting slogans, and as she gave "evidence" at a Young Palestinian Parliament mock trial finding President Bush guilty of crimes against humanity.

Perhaps her help in fanning the flames of violent anti-American sentiment led to the October 2003 bombing of the Fulbright delegation to Gaza to interview scholarship candidates, killing three. There will be no new crop of Palestinian Fulbright scholars this fall.





On the first anniversary of her death, I wanted to thank Rachel Corrie for providing her organization, the Palestinian-sponsored International Solidarity Movement, with the opportunity to release a manipulated photo sequence "showing" an Israeli military bulldozer deliberately crushing her. (I would also like to thank the Associated Press and the Christian Science Monitor for taking up the baton and immortalizing this cynical ISM stunt.)
On the first anniversary of her death, I want to thank Rachel Corrie for showing the way to all those who seek peace in the Middle East. Unfortunately, Corrie's peace, as anyone familiar with the Palestine Liberation Organization, Fatah, Hamas and Hezbollah organizations that she defended with her life knows--or as anyone familiar with the weekly rants of the Friday preachers in the Palestinian mosques is aware--means not peaceful coexistence but the elimination of the state of Israel, and death to those they call "the usurping Jews, the sons of apes and pigs."

Thank you, Rachel Corrie, of Evergreen State University, where the profs wear khakis and kaffiyehs at graduation ceremonies, for showing us what peace really means.

Ms. Shattan is a translator, editor and writer who has lived in Israel since 1976. This article appeared in the Jerusalem Post.

WindChimes44
Registered User
(4/17/04 3:05 am)
Reply
Re: Get Your Red Hots
This topic may have more potential to enrage than any I know of.

In my life, I broke off a friendship of long standing with 2 very sweet radical activist friends when the "downtrodden Palestinians, who understandably shot babies in their cribs, as you would too in their circumstances" became their cause of the year. I just could not listen to that particular batch of set pieces without becoming upset, and it was not in their nature as activists to refrain from preaching harder, and with fury, when disagreed with.

They actually do want the world to be a better place, and do many good things mixed in with many self defeating things (in my opinion).

For the record, I'm pretty pink-o myself, though not in the sense of admiring any communist governments. But I, for example, deplore the US activities in Latin America over the last century.

Alas, I think if the Arab world keeps erasing Israel as their goal, things will keep getting worse for the scapegoats, the Palestinians. The refugees went both ways when Israel was born. Israel resettled hers. The Arab world refused to resettle theirs because their preferred solution was to kill the jews and send the Palestinian Arabs back. And 'die jew dog' has not stopped.

My solution is to take all the money spent on the conflict, from all sources, buy south Texas for Israel and south Arizona for the Palestinians and let neither live on that contested piece of land for 1,000 years. The Holy Shrines will be administered for visits by all faiths by Buddhist monks.

But we have no functional international body to take that, or really any, step.

The bin laden strategy to inflame all Islam for war against 'the crusaders' sure looks to be working so far. If we could leave Afghanistan and Iraq in the good condition we left occupied Europe in, things might go well. But I do not see that we will, or even can.

Truly, only if that majority that wants peace on both sides of the problem can stop the killers on their own sides can peace have a chance. Both the arab and the jew who signed the peace treaty between Egypt and Israel were assassinated by the killer element of their own people.

Yes, I pray about it because it seems to me it will require a miracle! Look how much the topic inflames us here so far away.

soulcircle
(4/17/04 6:51 pm)
Reply
Re: Avraham Burg ~~~We could kill a thousand ringleaders
Hello Guests and All,

Quote:
We could kill a thousand ringleaders a day and nothing will be solved, because the leaders come up from below - from the wells of hatred and anger, from the "infrastructures" of injustice and moral corruption.


Burg wrote in The Guardian, September 15th, 2003:
www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1041960,00.html

Quote:
The end of Zionism Israel must shed its illusions and choose between racist oppression and democracy

The Zionist revolution has always rested on two pillars: a just path and an ethical leadership. Neither of these is operative any longer. The Israeli nation today rests on a scaffolding of corruption, and on foundations of oppression and injustice. As such, the end of the Zionist enterprise is already on our doorstep. There is a real chance that ours will be the last Zionist generation. There may yet be a Jewish state here, but it will be a different sort, strange and ugly.
There is time to change course, but not much. What is needed is a new vision of a just society and the political will to implement it. Diaspora Jews for whom Israel is a central pillar of their identity must pay heed and speak out.

The opposition does not exist, and the coalition, with Ariel Sharon at its head, claims the right to remain silent. In a nation of chatterboxes, everyone has suddenly fallen dumb, because there's nothing left to say. We live in a thunderously failed reality. Yes, we have revived the Hebrew language, created a marvellous theatre and a strong national currency. Our Jewish minds are as sharp as ever. We are traded on the Nasdaq. But is this why we created a state? The Jewish people did not survive for two millennia in order to pioneer new weaponry, computer security programs or anti-missile missiles. We were supposed to be a light unto the nations. In this we have failed.

It turns out that the 2,000-year struggle for Jewish survival comes down to a state of settlements, run by an amoral clique of corrupt lawbreakers who are deaf both to their citizens and to their enemies. A state lacking justice cannot survive. More and more Israelis are coming to understand this as they ask their children where they expect to live in 25 years. Children who are honest admit, to their parents' shock, that they do not know. The countdown to the end of Israeli society has begun.

It is very comfortable to be a Zionist in West Bank settlements such as Beit El and Ofra. The biblical landscape is charming. You can gaze through the geraniums and bougainvilleas and not see the occupation. Travelling on the fast highway that skirts barely a half-mile west of the Palestinian roadblocks, it's hard to comprehend the humiliating experience of the despised Arab who must creep for hours along the pocked, blockaded roads assigned to him. One road for the occupier, one road for the occupied.

This cannot work. Even if the Arabs lower their heads and swallow their shame and anger for ever, it won't work. A structure built on human callousness will inevitably collapse in on itself. Note this moment well: Zionism's superstructure is already collapsing like a cheap Jerusalem wedding hall. Only madmen continue dancing on the top floor while the pillars below are collapsing.

We have grown accustomed to ignoring the suffering of the women at the roadblocks. No wonder we don't hear the cries of the abused woman living next door or the single mother struggling to support her children in dignity. We don't even bother to count the women murdered by their husbands.

Israel, having ceased to care about the children of the Palestinians, should not be surprised when they come washed in hatred and blow themselves up in the centres of Israeli escapism. They consign themselves to Allah in our places of recreation, because their own lives are torture. They spill their own blood in our restaurants in order to ruin our appetites, because they have children and parents at home who are hungry and humiliated. We could kill a thousand ringleaders a day and nothing will be solved, because the leaders come up from below - from the wells of hatred and anger, from the "infrastructures" of injustice and moral corruption.

If all this were inevitable, divinely ordained and immutable, I would be silent. But things could be different, and so crying out is a moral imperative.

Here is what the prime minister should say to the people: the time for illusions is over. The time for decisions has arrived. We love the entire land of our forefathers and in some other time we would have wanted to live here alone. But that will not happen. The Arabs, too, have dreams and needs.

Between the Jordan and the Mediterranean there is no longer a clear Jewish majority. And so, fellow citizens, it is not possible to keep the whole thing without paying a price. We cannot keep a Palestinian majority under an Israeli boot and at the same time think ourselves the only democracy in the Middle East. There cannot be democracy without equal rights for all who live here, Arab as well as Jew. We cannot keep the territories and preserve a Jewish majority in the world's only Jewish state - not by means that are humane and moral and Jewish.

Do you want the greater land of Israel? No problem. Abandon democracy. Let's institute an efficient system of racial separation here, with prison camps and detention villages.

Do you want a Jewish majority? No problem. Either put the Arabs on railway cars, buses, camels and donkeys and expel them en masse - or separate ourselves from them absolutely, without tricks and gimmicks. There is no middle path. We must remove all the settlements - all of them - and draw an internationally recognised border between the Jewish national home and the Palestinian national home. The Jewish law of return will apply only within our national home, and their right of return will apply only within the borders of the Palestinian state.

Do you want democracy? No problem. Either abandon the greater land of Israel, to the last settlement and outpost, or give full citizenship and voting rights to everyone, including Arabs. The result, of course, will be that those who did not want a Palestinian state alongside us will have one in our midst, via the ballot box.

The prime minister should present the choices forthrightly: Jewish racism or democracy. Settlements, or hope for both peoples. False visions of barbed wire and suicide bombers, or a recognised international border between two states and a shared capital in Jerusalem.

Why, then, is the opposition so quiet? Perhaps because some would like to join the government at any price, even the price of participating in the sickness. But while they dither, the forces of good lose hope. Anyone who declines to present a clear-cut position - black or white - is collaborating in the decline. It is not a matter of Labour versus Likud or right versus left, but of right versus wrong, acceptable versus unacceptable. The law-abiding versus the lawbreakers. What's needed is not a political replacement for the Sharon government but a vision of hope, an alternative to the destruction of Zionism and its values by the deaf, dumb and callous.

Israel's friends abroad - Jewish and non-Jewish alike, presidents and prime ministers, rabbis and lay people - should choose as well. They must reach out and help Israel to navigate the road map toward our national destiny as a light unto the nations and a society of peace, justice and equality.

Š Avraham Burg

ˇ Avraham Burg was speaker of Israel's Knesset in 1999-2003 and is a former chairman of the Jewish Agency for Israel. Reprinted with permission of The Forward, which translated and adapted this essay from an article that originally appeared in Yediot Aharonot

comment@guardian.co.uk

a Jewish friend abroad,
soulci

soulcircle
(4/17/04 6:55 pm)
Reply
Agreed Windchimes44
Hello Guests and All,

Two posts up, the post by Windchimes is worth reading again.

Windchimes44 you say:
Quote:
Yes, I pray about it because it seems to me it will require a miracle!


Agreed!

soulcircle

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