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A voice in the supermarket Registered User (1/31/04 11:51 am) Reply	Re: Christ and SRF Jesus on the altar, Jesus in the teachings, What if Jesus himself is not into it anyway? Why should he? And where is the Biblical evidence that he should try to? Edited by: A voice in the supermarket at: 2/1/04 9:06 am
jyotirmoy Registered User (2/1/04 11:40 am) Reply	Re: Christ and SRF Dear Voice, of course Jesus was not "into yoga" in the gross sense, but if yoga is perfectly natural and universal, which I think it is, then it is all right with Jesus. I remember where Jesus was on SRF altars between 1956 and 1960, when I was very much a devotee, not only to the gurus but also to beautiful souls like Brahmachari Leland (=Bro.Mokshananda) and Bro.Bhaktananda. I wanted to leave Occidental College (30 min. walk away from MWC) after my freshman year to become a monk with them, but Leland convinced me otherwise, although I went and meditated with the monks when I didn't have afternoon classes. (Excuse the autobio bit, but I like to share happy memories.) Jesus was at the center, with no Krishna. The pictures were sometimes set up in a cross form, with Jesus at the center, Babaji to His right (our left), Lahiri to His left, SriYukteswar above, and Yogananda below. Other times, a big reproduction of the face on the Holy Shroud was put out at meditation. A Crucifix hung above the stage at Hollywood Temple. Blessed Mother Mary was to your right as you entered the Lake Shrine chapel. Jesus was always invoked at the beginning of the monks' meditations ("Heavenly Father, Divine Mother, Friend, Beloved God, Jesus Christ...), but I don't remember any prayers to Krishna (there may have been, though). Leland or someone at MWC told me about a Jewish woman who was very devoted and a deep meditator, but always felt uncomfortable about the Jesus picture and invocations, until... He appeared to her. Yoga, as Universal Wisdom, is implied in the Bible. Translating Proverbs 20:27 from the Hebrew, you get something like: "The breath of humans is a lamp of the Eternal [of Adonai], searching the deep recesses of their inner being." SRF uses the KJV Bible mainly because it has the phrase, "...if thine eye be single..." in Matthew 6:22. Modern English versions give something like "healthy, sound, clear, intact," which tries to shift the metaphor to something medical. But Jesus was talking from His knowledge of Hebrew Wisdom (i.e. Proverbs 20:27) and above all from from His knowledge of "what was in the heart of man," (can't find the verse just now). The Greek word was "haplous", rendered literally in the Latin as "simplex," "simple." But there is an implied contrast between seeing one and seeing two, not "seeing double" but having a divided mind, a dualistic vision. You get this negative counterpart in the Epistle of James 1:8, where he talks about "the man of dual mind -- aner dipsychos." Looks like SY and PY were close to the mark on the "eye" teaching of Jesus. By the way, I am not a born-again preacher. I am a monk in a lineage that goes back to AD 1027, and practice my 108+ Kriyas every morning, by the grace of God. I know I can't do it all by myself. Sometimes I perceive Babaji. I understand he is "ever in communion with Christ," and so I am happy to be with them both. jyotirmoy
ugizralrite Registered User (2/1/04 3:28 pm) Reply	Re: Christ and SRF jiyotirmoy, Thanks for your posts. I really apprecitate the voice of your experience.
A voice in the supermarket Registered User (2/2/04 9:03 am) Reply	Re: Christ and SRF Hello, jyotirmoy and others, There are many thing I would like to discuss around the expositions, interpretations and comments around the light and eye [Matthew 6:22 and so on], but I realize that basic, Christian commentaries may be at variance with teachings of Yogananda and thus the purposes of the Walrus board. Therefore I just put a link to the article on the discussion board started by Yellowbeard: "Christ and Light" pub177.ezboard.com/fcultb...D=16.topic It matters to be well informed, even if it runs contrary to our private hopes at times. Aloha Edited by: A voice in the supermarket at: 2/4/04 7:03 am
SayItIsntSo Registered User (2/2/04 10:05 am) Reply	Re: Christ and SRF I am always amazed with the ways that SRF (and their followers) try to convince themselves that Jesus Christ is in accordance with the teachings Krishna. SRF does not believe that the WORD (BIBLE) holds the truth other than what they quote out of Luke from St James. I remember many SRF monks, tongue in cheek, making fun of Christians for referring back to the WORD when they tried to fend off their apologetics. The interpretation of the newer Bibles wasn't meant to take one scripture, "May thine eye be single" (or any other scripture) and come up with a "different" meaning to outwit the metaphysical folks. Come on! New interpretations became available when technology gave linguists the tools to read the old texts. The NIV for example was "interpreted" by a bevy of scholars from many religions and secular bodies. If we believe in Jesus then we can't pick and choose what we want from his teachings just because we want it to fit into something we're into. The Bible isn't just the gospels of the New Testament--or a few scriptures that "sound like" something SRF teaches. The bible is the WORD of God. And if anyone starts saying the Bible was written by man, then please tell me WHO wrote the Upanishads, Gita, or any other ancient teachings but MAN? There is nothing at all similar to the teachings of Jesus or Krishna. The core of Christianity is Jesus died for our sins and we live one life. If we accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior then we are saved. How can anyone remove that core? Either you believe in Jesus or you don't. One can't sit on a fence. It doesn't work that way.
YellowBeard420 Slow Down (2/2/04 10:54 am) Reply	Jesus's Army of Flying Horses I think what's called for here is a sermon from Pastor Deacon Fred: ----------- My friends, church attendance is going up. It's the highest it's ever been in this country. We've had to install another neon comma to separate the numbers on our digital tithe counter hanging over the choir. People are returning to the Biblical roots that founded this great nation. ... Just wait until the Lord sends pink slips to every secular scientist in the land who dares to go nosing about beyond the pages of a trusty King James Bible for so-called "information." Take a look around you, my friends. The world is changing. One need only open up the Holy Bible to get the daily news, and more Americans are realizing that every day. As a result, I believe that many will soon understand that science and so-called "logic" don't have any place in God's Country. ... It couldn't be any clearer, brothers and sisters! It's us Christians versus the Evildoers! And we all know how the story is going to end, because we have The Book! Shout Glory! I know that all of you want to be with me on the glorious day that will signal the Lord is ready to return to Earth to do some serious butchering. ... The imminent apocalypse foretold in Scripture is unfolding before our eyes like a daytime soap opera too bloody for daytime tv and Bible believing Americans are glued to their television sets. Why are we watching? Because if we get out of our chairs for a minute, we might miss the Lord Jesus coming down through the clouds with his army of flying horses. I know that these are the final hours my friend. How sure am I? Well, I haven't taken a bowel movement in 72 hours and I have promised God that I won't sit on a toilet again until I see Jesus. You see? You have to have faith! And there is no way, when the Lord Jesus returns in His glory, that I going to be stuck mid-poop on the commode. And that will be the day of days, my friends! As True Christians�, we believe that on that day, Jesus is going to slaughter everyone on Earth who doesn't believe that He is the Son of God with all the particulars of our rarified brand of faith! I just hope there are some Baptist cameramen left at CNN, to get it all on tape! Praise the sweet name of Jesus! ... Brothers and sisters, even more people in this world are throwing off false religions like, Islam, Yoga, Catholicism (mother complex pedophilia), Amway and Veganism. They are turning to flatter the one true Living God of the Holy Bible, and He must be blushing from all the attention! But baby Jesus knew it was coming! In fact, he warned people that if they didn't flatter Him, He had some really nasty surprises up his sleeve in store for them. Amen! Love the Lord Jesus, my dear friends! Or He will burn you in Hell! It's not that hard to understand. Compliment Jesus or burn. It took me half a second to make that decision, and I was only two-years old! www.landoverbaptist.org/s...ssage.html --------------
bsjones Registered User (2/2/04 10:55 am) Reply ezSupporter	Re: Christ and SRF Yes it does.
SayItIsntSo Registered User (2/2/04 2:47 pm) Reply	Re: Jesus's Army of Flying Horses Okay, okay, Yellow Beard... You can poke fun at my pointed little head. :0
bsjones Registered User (2/2/04 2:54 pm) Reply ezSupporter	Re: Jesus's Army of Flying Horses Before YB jumped in front of me, I was trying to say to Sayitisn'tso: I think it DOES work that way - there is only one God, hence the unity of true religions.
SayItIsntSo Registered User (2/2/04 5:26 pm) Reply	Re: Jesus's Army of Flying Horses Hi BJones... I figured that out. I just think it's interesting how non-Christian religions try to change Jesus' role. What's wrong with the Bible's simple message? Is it because it's too easy? Why can't SRF people just admit they do not follow Jesus and be done with it rather than argue a bunch of points? His teachings are in the Bible. You either follow his teachings there or you don't. But what gives anyone, even Yogananda, the right to rewrite, remold and spin their own ideas on what's already in the Bible? It would be like taking PY's teachings and throwing them in the trash and rewriting his message.
ranger20 Registered User (2/2/04 7:55 pm) Reply	Re: Jesus's Army of Flying Horses It would be like taking PY's teachings and throwing them in the trash and rewriting his message. Yeah...doing things like airbrushing out the crosses he an Rajasi used to wear. Why can't SRF people just admit they do not follow Jesus and be done with it rather than argue a bunch of points? Seeming respectable, drawing westerners, not seeming like a cult, making sure of tax exempt status. These I expect are some of the prime motives now. I do accept the possibility that PY was motivated by a grand unifying vision - the view from the mountaintop. I also agree with you, that the terrain on the way up is really not the same at all.
bsjones Registered User (2/3/04 9:13 am) Reply ezSupporter	Re: Christ and SRF The core of Christianity is Jesus died for our sins and we live one life. Sayitisn'tSo, I think reincarnation was revised out of the Church by one of the early leaders. Check this out: Early Christianity Also, the link above talks about the contemporary Christian "notion that humanity's redemption from 'sin' and entry into Heaven rests solely with the vicarious and sacrificial death of Jesus on the cross and the personal acceptance of that doctrine by those who wish to be 'saved' through the auspices of a formal acceptance ritual (i.e. 'baptism') and 'blind faith'." There is evidence that this was added by Paul and others. I do believe that there is truth in your statement "If we accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior then we are saved. " because as Jesus said "I and the Father are one." All creation has the one Father/Mother, and Jesus was one with Him/Her.
ranger20 Registered User (2/4/04 8:56 am) Reply	Re: Christ and SRF There was a debate about reincarnation at one of the councils of Nicea, the second one I believe, so this would be 400-500. Because these were originally called at the behest of imperial Rome, their agenda and findings were as much or more political as theological. So I do not believe that one life/many lives is a core issue in Christianity.
SayItIsntSo Registered User (2/4/04 10:15 am) Reply	Re: Christ and SRF First, let�s talk about the author of this piece: Alex PATERSON is a former airline pilot, now living in Queensland, Australia. Okay, now that that�s out of the way. Right out of the shoot he said: �In reality, there is no real separation between God and Man, as the whole Universe, including Man, is simply a expression (manifestation) of God and as such is God.� His reality as a former airline pilot? Again, what we have here at Walrus are those who don�t read the Bible, or study the history surrounding the texts, and take the opinions of non-theological scholars as fact. Just as Jesus posed a genuine threat to the establishment in Jerusalem, so is he a genuine threat to SRF devotees, or all non-Christian based religions. Jesus said he was the Messiah, but he didn�t say it until he was weak, rejected, doomed, alone�then he thought it was safe to reveal that he was the Messiah. This isn�t confessed until the moment when the �danger of founding a religion is finally past.�** There is a reason he waited, when his claims would seem the height of absurdity. Is this a discussion about religions, which HE knew was self-serving, or about the teachings of Jesus Christ?
redpurusha Registered User (2/4/04 12:06 pm) Reply	Re: Christ and SRF Say it isn't so SayItIsntSo. I wasn't very interested in God or Jesus Christ until I read the autobiography. Yet there is a difference. Jesus found his own unique path to Self-discovery, not the same than that of SRF's. Check out An Eagle's Flight by George Burke, and you may find an interesting perspective on Chrisitanity. It is a big mistake to think people 'either believe in Jesus or not' or are saved or not. Everyone is on their own level of understanding and spiritual development and practices these universal teachings accordingly. The Buddha (prior to Jesus's arrival) found God (Nirvana being an impersonal aspect of God), and so did many saints outside of Christianity, how then can one honestly say that the bible or church or his death on the cross is the only way to heaven? This is not to mention life in other parts of the universe, who have never heard of the bible or Jesus? It makes no sense to me, is ilogical, and I refuse to accept it. Read the fifth gospel. It was kicked out because it is a threat to 'safe Christianity' (i.e. we have been saved by the death of Jesus). It promotes the teaching of Self-discovery. The kingdom of heaven is all around us and within us, yet how few know this beyond theoretical belief. The saints, not thelogians, are the real custodians of religion.
bsjones Registered User (2/4/04 12:29 pm) Reply ezSupporter	Re: Christ and SRF So, sayitisn'tso, do you see any good in SRF, Yogananda, or the teachings of either one? Red, the Autobiography also re-inspired my own relation with Jesus Christ. I believe in him, though not the way some people think I ought to (ie. believe how the Bible is interpreted by fundamentalists), and I feel they are meddling with what is to me a sacred relationship. In fact, I resent it. Jesus is more important to me than pleasing those who seek to judge me for not seeing things their way.
ranger20 Registered User (2/4/04 2:30 pm) Reply	Re: Christ and SRF Jesus is more important to me than pleasing those who seek to judge me for not seeing things their way. Me too. This is an interesting thread for me. More than 20 years in SRF. A strong pull to Christianity surfacing about six years ago. The thing is, I was never a "model devotee" from the start. For instance, I never thought twice about reading any spiritual book that interested me, with no guilt. I attended things like Michael Harner's shamanic workshops with minimal guilt. But when I really began to feel heart pulls toward Jesus I began to feel massively guilty. Now I think I understand why. Other books or workshops never really touched my core SRF views and practices, but I've really come to think that Christianity and SRF have some very wide gaps between them. Like: - Though there are a few disclaimers, the overall bias of SRF is that we create or earn our own salvation. Despite the monks now and again saying "50% grace of God, 25% guru's help, 25% your effort," most all the writings and thinking is along the lines of "a million years, divided by (kriyas-per-day * 365)." A core teaching of Christianity is that "salvation" cannot be earned, but only received as a gift. - The SRF hero image seems to be the solitary yogi in a cave, working out his own salvation. With a few exceptions, Christian spirituality is lived in community. The Body of Christ, table fellowship. Even the desert fathers gathered in communities of cave dwellers. - A tendency to deny the reality of suffering in SRF, or suggest that if you were a better yogi you would not suffer. The centrality of suffering in the image of the cross in Christianity, but the promise through the cross that Jesus is always intimately with you and sharing it as a result. - A tendency to avoid the "reality" of evil in SRF - it's "just" Maya. The troubles I have are my own karma. In Christianity, although destined to ultimate defeat, evil is named when it appears in this world. Not all the troubles, not all the "wicked" thoughts are my own. CS Lewis wrote that the greatest weapon of demonic powers was to convice a "rationalist world" that they didn't exist. Although an external entity tried to stop Yogananda's heart in a hotel room in Bombay (AY), it's never spoken of anywhere else in SRF. Anyway, these are some differences that quickly come to mind.
bsjones Registered User (2/4/04 2:58 pm) Reply ezSupporter	Re: Christ and SRF I like your points ranger. This kind of discussion helps to enrich my feelings for both Yoga and Christ. Thanks for starting this thread, SayItIsn'tSo!
premdas Registered User (2/4/04 4:10 pm) Reply	Re: Christ and SRF Good discussion. Yogananda said he came to the west to bring the original teachings of Christ & the original yoga of Krishna, and that the second coming of Christ is personal, when the Christ is born within each one of us. Remember that PY came to America in the 20's, amid racial & religious biases & intolerance. He spoke to people who were willing to listen, in terms they were ready to understand. Like great teachers, he often spoke to them at the level they could comprehend. Today the terminology may seem dated, the ideas not so unique. But he was one of the great yogis who accelerated vedic studies & worship, he is acknowledged as one of the most important exponents of Indian culture to the west, and he was very instrumental through his teachings and his brother, Bhishnu Ghosh, for revitalizing Hatha Yoga, in India and later America. He, alongside Vivekananda, laid the spiritual groundwork for Eastern Philosophy that was to change US metaphysical religions and eventually Western Society. He did this at the behest of his guru, Yukteswar (who instructed PY in the New Testament), with the blessings and encouragement of Babaji. There are extensive writings called "The Second Coming of Christ" which were published throughout the history of "East-West" & later SRF Magazines. Some devotees have access to the old mags. (although SRF has gone to great lengths to squash anyone republishing or copying them; there are some around, but you run the risk of their legal dept.'s actions). There are many of us who have had Christ/Jesus made more real/relevant because of PY's work. As for being on the altar of Self-Realizationalists (not all of us are SRFers), Yogananda put Him in the center. He never placed Kishna there according to the direct disciples I have met or heard speak. Krishna was added later, after PY's death, based on SRF/YSS interests in India. To us, Christ is one of the gurus, a paramguru, as well as an avatar, who appeared to Babaji and works w/B to watch over & direct the spiritual work of the West. OK, this is the skinny as I see it! Thanks for this good thread. Om, Premdas
SayItIsntSo Registered User (2/4/04 7:46 pm) Reply	Re: Christ and SRF Ranger, nice summary and those points are mine as well. BJ, you asked if I thought PY or his teachings was any value. SRF failed me when it was ultimately tested. I have stated all over this board why, so I'm not going to reiterate. I don't know about the minute points of Christianity, and I'm not an apologetic. All I said is that Jesus made it pretty clear what you have to do to be a Christian, and there's nothing about going through a yogi from India. Again, what's wrong with something so beautifully simple as being saved by Jesus Christ? If PY was the one sent to give the message of Jesus, why isn't PY's teachings blazing a pathway for the masses? Because it doesn't work, that's why. In the end, when you really need the "blessing," it isn't going to come. Edited by: SayItIsntSo at: 2/10/04 4:41 pm

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