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Xnun Registered User (1/11/04 10:34 am) Reply	Re: Christ and SRF Great article! But I'll also need more time to really absorb what's written there. -- About the author, what exactly does "ex devotee" mean, ex-member or ex-monastic?
SayItIsntSo Registered User (1/11/04 10:37 am) Reply	Re: Christ and SRF Xnun, You know, when I first found the article it was linked from another page and it had a quick bio on the writer. It said he'd been a member. I can't find that original website. I'd only saved this page. I thought he'd gone over that in the body of the article.
redpurusha Registered User (1/12/04 1:14 pm) Reply	Re: Christ and SRF Thank you xnun for your detailed response and commentary. I don't want to get involved into an endless debate on the scriptures, but there are some things worth analyzing and discussing further. you wrote >And would He have been obliged to include everything human beings wrote and wanted included, like the gospel of Thomas and many other gospels and epistles that never made their way into the Biblical canon, or would God have been sovereign and powerful enough to see to it that exactly and only the information would make its way into the Bible that He wanted there?< No. God may be powerful and wise enough to give to us a pure teaching in the gospels through Jesus and the bible, but he could not stop man from tampering with it and changing it. Granted, the bible provides a light for us to see, this light has gone through many filters (many hands and minds), diluting the message a little each time. Yogananda's teachings are not taking away the validity of the bible, nor are they being used for the sole purpose of attracting christians. On the contrary he was actually trying to validate it more and give it real credibility, that God and Jesus do infact exist, and what the bible says is true. >Paul, for one, wrote all his epistles to Christians, that is people who believed in the Christ Paul and others preached, who had accepted Christ as their Lord and Savior, and who were therefore baptized by the one Spirit into the one body of Christ, that is the church which consists of everybody who belongs to Christ (cf. Eph 5:23 Col 1:18,24). And there is not one single reference to or implication of a "divine or universal awareness." > Going by the bible, if the the body of Christ is the church, and the members of this body or family are spread around the world, then isn't this a universal body (of some mystery divine nature, even the catholic church speaks of it as "the mystical body of Christ")? I see your point of preventing anything put into Paul's mouth, but can you see a difficulty, for instance if Paul did indeed have a universal consciousness, in trying to fully describe it to us? How would you go about describing such phenomenal experience? Paul's talks of one body, many bodies in one -in Christ, is a worthy attempt to try to describe this awareness of the universal Christ in speech form. Of course, you and and every bible conservative will protest that this is stretching the meaning, but is it really that far-fetched? You would have to have personal direct experience to truly know, until then we can only go by those who have had this experience (not limited to people written of in the bible). The God in the bible is limited to a one-dimentional boxed written word. The living God and living Christ cannot be boxed in like this, in fact, it's almost insulting besides unrealisitc, to think that the universal Christ can only be found in a book. The bible only points to Christ and the kingdom of God, it is not Christ nor is reading it result in finding the kingdom of God. As Jesus clearly points out, "Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you." -Luke 17:21 this cannot be emphasised enough to especially those who place too much emphasis on the written God, not the living God. That, and the fact that your body is the temple of God. It's like one person has a manual to build a plane and goes around parading he's got the manual to build this great feat of engineering, but then there's the guy who actually has a plane and flies around in it. So it is of people who read about God and the kingdom in the bible, and those blessed with realization, who have found the kingdom within themselves, and don't need to read about God in the bible because they can commune with him within. Edited by: redpurusha at: 1/12/04 1:25 pm
Lobo Registered User (1/13/04 12:10 am) Reply	Re: Christ and SRF A timely and on-point exposition of these issues is the well-known scholar Elaine Pagel's latest book, The Gospel of Thomas. In it she goes into great detail as to just how the Bible came to be "gathered," or, the process that Christian leaders of that time determined what "books" or "gospels" out of the many would be included, and which would not. With the discovery in the late 40's of the Nag Hammadi scriptures and their explosive revelations of more than one view of Jesus and his teachings scholars have been able to understand much of what was repressed by those Christians mentioned above. One of the most significant finds in the Nag Hammadi library was the Gospel of Thomas (not the "doubting Thomas" portrayed by John in his Gospel. Thomas, who might have been the "twin" of Jesus, received "secret" teachings given to him by his guru, teachings not given to the others. Thomas, then, wrote that Jesus taught that everyone is divine; rather different than the teachings of John wherein he makes the unique claim (not made in other books (Matthew, Mark, Luke) included in the Bible) that Jesus was unique, the Son of God, and most controversarily, God Himself in a human form. This later claim which Christians ever since have taken a truth was neverless quite unique at the time John wrote. Ms. Pagels shows how John's gospel (circa 80-100 c.e.) was purposely written to paint this unique picture of Jesus as God and to refute the claims of Thomas as to his claim that Jesus taught everyone is Divine and that God is knowable. In other words, John's gospel is meant to create a counterbalance to Thomas' gospel; which can be seen to the many stories which are thinly disguised attacks upon Thomas (again John falsely labeled him "doubting Thomas" which of course has stuck ever since in Christian belief.). So based upon these facts (and many more---read the book!) PY's teachings are close to those of Thomas', for example (quoting from the Gospel of Thomas quoting Jesus); "the kingdom is inside you, and outside you. When you come to know yourselves, then you will be known, and you will see that it is you who are the children of the living Father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty; and it is you who are that poverty." and, "if they say to you, 'Where did you come from?' say to them, 'We came from the light, the place where the light came into being by itself, and was revealed through their image.' If they say to you, 'Who are you?' say, 'We are its children, the chosen of the living father.'" Anyway it is an outstanding book shedding much light upon early Christianity and the teachings which were left out of the Bible due to those political decisions which had more to do (sadly) with worldly power than Truth. And we are still laboring under these faulty concepts today.
redpurusha Registered User (1/13/04 7:18 am) Reply	Re: Christ and SRF Thank you Lobo for those great quotes from the gospel of Thomas. "The Fifth Gospel" written by many scholars, is another good book analyzing this gospel. The teachings of Self-realization are eternal and universal, no matter how much people try to hide or suppress the truth. "When you come to know yourselves, then you will be known, and you will see that it is you who are the children of the living Father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty; and it is you who are that poverty."
ranger20 Registered User (1/13/04 9:03 am) Reply	Re: Christ and SRF One of the key differences I see between SRF and at least "liberal" Christian denominations has to do with the nature of beliefs about salvation - beliefs, mind you, without regard to what may or may not be the ultimate metaphysical truth. SRF teachings quote it as "25% individual effort, 25% the Guru's effort (on your behalf) and 50% the grace of God." Paul set the stage for mainstream Christian belief as 100% the grace of God, which accords with a lot of the content of the gospels. In Luke, after the "easier for a camel to pass throught the eye of a needle," the disciples are understandably upset, and ask, "who then, can be saved?" Jesus answers, "With man it is not possible, but with God, all things are possible." Again, not focusing on metaphysical truth, but what I've observed in myself and others, as consequence of these teachings. I think there's a lot of spiritual huffing and puffing in SRF, as if this is a marathon, and God's at the finish line and our time has to be good enough, but we deeply suspect that it won't be. Dumb analogy perhaps, but something like this has impressed a lot of good people with a kind of fear, low self esteem, and low regard for innocent social exchange as described on this board. I know Christians who I look up to for their complete comfort in the belief that God loves them exactly as they are now, and this grace lends a generosity of spirit that I know I never had when I was even in a subtle way, operating from the belief that somehow God would love me just a little less if I didn't do all my kriyas today. There are individual counter examples galore, but these are musings on how I want to live in this world, and where I find the best examples of how it's done.
X Insider Registered User (1/13/04 11:10 am) Reply	Re: Christ and SRF Ranger, I find your marathon analogy very apt.
redpurusha Registered User (1/13/04 11:47 am) Reply	Re: Christ and SRF Sayitaintso, I just read the article you mentioned. I read one similar to it when I first started with the teachings, but to this author I have to give more credit because he seems to have taken the time to read and comprehend Yogananda's teachings (at least intellectually). The other author must have just skimmed through the autobiography and never took the bag over his head. The author presents a strong opposition to the theory of pantheism or that God is all or in all. As a matter of fact, science has shown that all matter has been determined to be a manifestation of energy. And what exactly is energy then? It would be far-fetched and a presupposition to make the claim that God or consciousness is energy. It is why only those who have made a direct and personal discovery of God, of themselves, can vouche for such a claim. You can only argue intellectually to some limited level on God's nature. If you go just by the bible, you get a thousand and one Chrsitian denominations each interpreting the word of God differently. That is why the bible can only point to the truth, not be the truth and the life, because the truth has to be lived and experienced. And Christ teaches and the bible points to look within ourselves to find God's kingdom, not in the bible. The author of this site writes, "It is crucial to note that the apostle Paul condemned those who preach �another Jesus whom we have not preached,� labeling them �false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light� (2 Cor. 11:4, 13�14)." He is implying that Yogananda is such a false apostle or deceitful worker, an anti-Christ. This allegation can be (and usually is) stamped on anyone not agreeing with one specific orthodox interpretation of the bilble. In other words, if you don't agree and interpret as we do, you are a false apostle or prophet -an agent of Satan. Having said that, I think this was one of the better critiques of Yogananda's teachings by traditionalist Christians by far.
redpurusha Registered User (1/13/04 12:09 pm) Reply	Re: Christ and SRF Ranger, there seems to be at least some apparent contradiction in the bible regarding salvation, because we also read, "Wherefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." -Philippians 2:12 There are also numerous parables given by Jesus implying that your actions do in fact, have consequences and will affect your salvation. "By their fruits you will know them." So, how can we combine a teaching that says you are saved by faith alone by God's mercy and Christ's death, with "a man reaps what he sows" as taught by Jesus? Yogananda's intepretation offers a solution in which both your actions and God's grace are necessary towards salvation. There is no denial of the bible, of Christ's teachings of love and humility, but there is also no complete dependency on God's grace, and there lies the difference, and of course the view of Jesus as a unique person born of the virgin Mary, unlike Yogananda or any other gurus. Of course Jesus is unique, but so is everyone else, as a unique child of God, only Jesus was able to mature or progress much faster, and therefore express God's full nature in a way most everyone else hasn't.
SayItIsntSo Registered User (1/13/04 1:53 pm) Reply	Re: Christ and SRF This conversation is really interesting to me. Thank you all for your thoughtful critiques on that article. Edited by: SayItIsntSo at: 2/10/04 4:46 pm
SayItIsntSo Registered User (1/13/04 4:24 pm) Reply	Re: Christ and SRF Now I'm replying to myself. Here's another article from Christian perspective. I thought it was interesting in that they go back and trace the roots of Yoga: www.watchman.org/na/yogareligion.htm
etzchaim Registered User (1/13/04 5:50 pm) Reply	Re: Christ and SRF Sayitisntso, I'm finding this statement very fascinating: "There is a social virus in our religion and morality and culture that conditions people to give power away," Alstad said." It seems like this is the human game, at least half of it. The other half is 'getting the power for myself.' While I don't agree with the Guru papers 100%, I think that many, many people are looking for father or mother figures and are having a really hard time trusting themselves to take control of their own lives and they play right into the hands of those who want the power. I have a strange relationship with my own Guru in that I'm a rather rebellious kind of person and am not usually afraid to speak up about something. He uses that to teach me, but I imagine I would have a hell of a time in SRF (I can see my file already...), as I had a hell of a time with the nuns in the Catholic school I went to as a kid, so I don't believe that all Guru's are on a power trip, but many are. Some may even be blind to it - a spiritual ego is a really difficult thing to deal with, especially when people who are casting their power away are practically worshipping you! I'm not saying they have an excuse, but the issue of empowering people so they feel strong enough to make their own decisions is a real need in our world. The quotes from SRF: 'dreamy'. This reminds me of people who want to return to the Garden of Eden and so they concont a world where all is beautiful and nothing is wrong. I bet that whenever anyone tries to kill their buzz, or isn't towing the "this is all just perfect" line, that's when the guilt tripping starts happening.
redpurusha Registered User (1/14/04 8:34 am) Reply	Re: Christ and SRF "There is a social virus in our religion and morality and culture that conditions people to give power away," Alstad said." Yeh, blame it the most influencial leader in doing this -Jesus. Giving power away or doing the will of another is a double-edged sword. Christianity teaches us to let God's will be ours, (the Holy Father's prayer). Why? because by doing so you will be guided by someone who sees clearly and those actions would most benefit you. But, on the other hand, if you allow someone who only appears to have a clear vision, but who is actually blind himself or even worse, then you will be only following bad guidance. Suppose you are looking for a street so you can visit your friend, but you get lost, would you not ask someone for help, someone who lives there and knows for sure the directions to the street you're looking for? Now, if you ask someone who lives there they will most likely give you the right directions but if you ask someone who is as lost as you are and is also visiting the area, then you might get completely wrong directions and get even more lost then you were in the first place. This is a very simple illustration, but its a point made about taking advice from others. It could go either way, its neither good or bad per se. To call this a virus is wrong, but if you are going to blame someone then blame Jesus for teaching it (the bible is like the #1 read piece of literature in world history).
ranger20 Registered User (1/14/04 8:50 am) Reply	Re: Christ and SRF *Quote:* there seems to be at least some apparent contradiction in the bible regarding salvation, because we also read, "Wherefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." -Philippians 2:12 There are also numerous parables given by Jesus implying that your actions do in fact, have consequences and will affect your salvation. "By their fruits you will know them." So, how can we combine a teaching that says you are saved by faith alone by God's mercy and Christ's death, with "a man reaps what he sows" as taught by Jesus? I agree that throughout the bible, actions are important - "Your sins are forgiven. Go and sin no more." But I also know that even a casual reading of Paul points to his main thrust, that good actions are "necessary, but not sufficient." The whole of Galatians for example: *Quote:* We who are Jews by birth and not "Gentile sinners" know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified. (Galatians 2:15-17, NIV). Yogananda said something similar on at least one occasion. Anandamoy has spoken of the time when he was a newbie, and impressed by a man who said he'd done over a million kriyas. Yogananda later shrugged, and said, "He still thinks he can do it by himself." The objectionable mindset is that somehow "salvation," (however you define it) can be earned. Any hint of that motive behind serving or kriyas or giving to charity or anything else, and spritual greed is right behind it. Jesus was always watching motive, and I think Yogananda attended to it as well.
redpurusha Registered User (1/14/04 11:25 am) Reply	Re: Christ and SRF Another important quote, "The sabbath (law) was made for man, not man for the sabbath." That is, as Yogananda explains, rules are made to help us, we are not made or exist for rules. From this it follows that rules should be flexible enough to change with the progress of society and individuals. Motive vs. Consequence -this is a difficult concept in the philosophy of ethics. For example, suppose you have good intentions but the outcome is very bad, or vice versa? We are touching a couple different concepts here but they overlap each other. One more comment I want to make on salvation, and being independent or not, is that in the ultimate sense because we are a part of God, even with the guru's 25% help, and with God's grace, everything is done by God or the universal Force or whatever you want to call that power, he is living through us and he sustains us, we are him and he is us.
ranger20 Registered User (1/14/04 11:35 am) Reply	Re: Christ and SRF *Quote:* Motive vs. Consequence -this is a difficult concept in the philosophy of ethics. For example, suppose you have good intentions but the outcome is very bad, or vice versa? Most of the biblical examples that I remember on motive are not that complicated. Those who pray in public for the display, have their reward. The story of the widow's mite: contrast a pharasee giving a large amount of money in a public display, vs a poor widow who gave a single copper coin, but it was all she had. Who gave more? In this case, Yogananda has a similar story. He bought various presents for SY on his return to India, but the most appreciated was a cane he bought for himself, and gave to his guru at the last moment.
etzchaim Registered User (1/14/04 12:15 pm) Reply	Perspective "The sabbath (law) was made for man, not man for the sabbath." There is a saying among Jews that goes: "More than the Jews have kept the Sabbath, the Sabbath has kept the Jews", meaning that the benefits of keeping of the Sabbath outway the efforts made to keep it. Sabbath means "rest" is Hebrew and it is meant to be a day of resting and connecting to what is holy. The concept of 'law' isn't relevant here. In my experience with the Orthodox, more stress is induced by the compulsive qualities with which the laws are observed, but a bit of knowledge of history is important here. During the Medieval period, as the Jews consistently refused to convert to Christianity, various attempts were made to sabotage the Jewish practice of their religion. Food was intentionally sabotaged with unkosher elements (pig grease was used frequently), cloth merchants were intentionally combining wool and linen in both cloth and thread so that Jews could not use them, and attempts were made to increase the difficulty for Jews to keep their Sabbath. The Rabbis, though well intentioned, did a good amount of damage to what is essentially a beautiful way to connect to God, by increasing the strictness of the rules so that unintentional 'breaking' of the laws did not occur. Of course, there was a good deal of damage to the Jewish communities all around due the prejudices directed against them, and the Rabbis responded in a way meant to balance this out and protect people from the hostility around them. The sense of community that developed in the enforced isolation of the Jewish communities of Europe is actually something that many religious communities might want to emulate. This sense of community developed partly because of the bias against the observance and beliefs of the Jews and the attacks against them and served in many ways to allow for the practice of the religion in the insular community without fear of sabotage or harm. The Sabbath, as kept by the Jews, when not practiced compulsively, is a very beautiful and peaceful way to connect to holiness and experience it within oneself and within a community of people. I'm still, despite my much more open attitudes towards Jesus teachings, convinced that he was a Jew who practiced Judaism and Jewish mysticism, not Christianity, which came about gradually, at least half a century after him and reacted violently against it's mother religion, or Yoga, and was talking to Jews, if he did actually say what is recorded in the Christian Scriptures. I'm liking the Gospel of Thomas quite a bit. It's more in the spirit of Jewish Mysticism, shall we say... Edited by: etzchaim at: 1/14/04 12:22 pm
etzchaim Registered User (1/14/04 12:20 pm) Reply	Re: Perspective Please resume your regular conversation (which I'm enjoying immensely), and I'll watch quietly again.
redpurusha Registered User (1/14/04 12:54 pm) Reply	Re: Christ and SRF etz, I read the quote by the srf monastic defining what a guru is, and frankly I liked it, seemed like a good answer to the question. As far as the srf community being cold or what have you, Yogananda was not like this (from those who attended his lectures and spent time around him), so next time you go (if you ever go) to an srf meeting, you be the more social easy going person and maybe life of the meeting, or something like that. If you have strong positive magnetism, like Yogananda did, then you should be able to charge any place up with that energy or at least have some of it flow and influence those around you. I guess you can also be drained with negative energy of others, but it's worth at least one try. If they kick you out, ignore your invitations or you extension of friendship (or don't like your jokes) then just don't bother any more and find a better place suited for you. Edited by: redpurusha at: 1/14/04 12:57 pm
etzchaim Registered User (1/14/04 1:25 pm) Reply	Re: Christ and SRF Redpurusha, I have visited or been a member of many communities and my experience with SRF was of a group of people who were decidedly cut off from each other - there was a level of nervousness in the air that disturbed me, like they were competing with each other in a way that I didn't quite understand. People at my Temple do not display this, nor do most of the other groups I've been in and I think that the idealism and "dreaminess" and the inability to admit the human side of the Guru or of the long-time Swamis, and the denial of the human side of the devotees is the culprit. It's as if the emphasis is on the Energy and a denial of the Mass exists, when the two are really best suited to work with each other. Most of the time, I come across issues like "competetiveness" or "worth comparison" sorts of issues in more Fundamentalist communities (of all kinds) where there is a fear of unworthiness that has manifested, for whatever reason. Like you, I don't believe that Yogananda behaved this way. However, I don't hold him to the standard that you hold him (we can say the same about Jesus, as well), and do not believe that he lacked a few human qualities that were not entirely 'stellar', some of which may have contributed to the current culture of SRF, either through his own example (he could give quite a scolding, for example) or through a misunderstanding of something he said or did. Edited by: etzchaim at: 1/14/04 1:42 pm

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