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YellowBeard420
Slow Down
(2/7/04 8:05 pm)
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Re: Face to Face with Reality as it Is
> SayItIsntSo: “I didn't even bother with looking the scriptures up. I knew they were out of context.”

> YellowBeard: “Jesus told the disciples to bring before Him any man who didn't believe in Him, and to violently slaughter the non-believer while Jesus watched (Luke 19:27).”

Let's take a look at Luke 19:27 --

------
But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. (Luke 19:27 KJV)

But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them--bring them here and kill them in front of me. (Luke 19:27 NIV)

But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slaughter them before me. (Luke 19:27 ESV)
------

> 'A Voice in the Supermarket' wrote: “There are very good reasons to say Christianity broke out of Judaism as a sect. It should be stressed that the new religion dispensed with some heart commandments of Jews: (1) The seriously enforced Sabbath rest, (2) the circumcision covenant.”

Good call. Circumcision was spoken of as a brutal act by this new sect, Christianity. And this is definitely a good thing. Mutilation of the genitals in the name of a covenant with God is of course a hideous thing.

But for some strange reason, circumcision remained popular. In the U.S. it's still widely practiced. I'm not sure on Europe. Perhaps Voice could fill us in on that one.

And there were other improvements of Judaism through Christianity, no doubt.

My problem with Christianity is it's very strong empowerment of spiritual authority. Some may say that it's necessary to provide spiritual support. But under the tenets of Buddhism, it's never been necessary, and they're having no problems. In fact, I would be so bold as to say that *way* more people have found Buddhist, Taoist, and non-dual Hindu teachings to be much more helpful than Christianity.


> 'A Voice in the Supermarket': “You state, "Our existence is eternal". This appears to be an article of faith. Mhm!”

I'll make another bold claim here that I've made before a few times on this board. For me, our existence as eternal is a fact. A fact more real than these computer screens we're looking at. I've seen these perceptions melt away before this eternal reality of our existence.

This is a general note to all the readers: If your spiritual authorities are so wonderful and helpful, why have you not seen this reality? You should have seen this before me since you people have received "grace".

I use to practice Zen before SRF. That's when I had these experiences. I had no religious beliefs, that's why I was attracted to Zen. A few strong slaps in the face of insights came my way from this "beginner's mind" state. They were difficult to deal with.

I heard about "Self-realization Fellowship" and I was pulled in through my naivety. I thought it was a place where people who have glimpsed the Self come together to help each other incorporate these things into their lives. I had a big surprise, SRF was not about Self-realization, nor was it about fellowship (which implies a group of equals). It was about Yogananda-realization. It was about worship and subservience to spiritual authority.

But I stuck with it because I figured that there was some importance to this approach. And I sat by and watched it destroy my life. Finally I said enough is enough. I started the process of shaking all these beliefs and tightly knit dualistic concepts from the mind that were ingrained there through my SRF training. That's when I started "Cult Busters - SRF Division" and then started posting on the Walrus. Writing these things out seemed like and turned out to be very helpful for this process. And also it created the possibility of it being helpful to others at the same time.

Yogananda is no longer haunting this mind and it's a true "blessing". With that weight off my back, things are becoming clearer and simpler (meaning more holistic). I've learned the hard way (as we all seem to have to) that one should never seek "help" with dealing with Reality. In Zen you just deal with it -- you merge into it. But I turned away and ran to spiritual authority for help. I became entangled in a mess by trying to find an "intermediary" for Reality.

So this is my warning to the readers. Don't look to any intermediary (spiritual authority) when you experience these things. It's like you're thirsty and you hand your cup to someone else. They drink the water and what they pee out they give back to you. This is not helpful and ultimately makes you sick.

What I say here no one has to (or even should) believe. Nor would I even want anyone to. It's a warning to you about a mistake I've made. When you get your "slap in the face" of distilled Reality, you may think of these things then. Assuming facing Reality is the goal of the readers. This is not necessarily something you "should" do. I'm just some guy standing on the side of the road warning people of a certain danger. But this road may not be your road. Having a sense of security in an insecure world through a comfortable belief system may be your goal. I leave that job to your gurus -- I leave it to them to dispense that false panacea.


> SayItIsntSo: “In life, he was a very wonderful man and many of us have seen "A Life Divine," and not one of us can say we didn't shed a tear.”

Don't take this personally, I say this to a lot of people here. Where are those tears for the everyday people you kick out of your way on the street? People talk a lot here about love for Yogananda, Jesus and pretty much any other charismatic swindler offering heaven that crosses their path. All people deserve equal respect. Like I told Dawnrays, I'll stop having trouble with you calling Yogananda "Master" the day you start calling the homeless people you kick out of your way on the street Master. In other words, people only tend to show love for others if they think they're going to get something from them. It's like Mother Teresa, she feed children to convert them because she thought she'd get a seat at the right hand of the Lord for doing so. What if these children called Jesus, "the Butcher of Bethlehem" and that they're Taoists and they'll never convert to Christianity? Where would her love be then?


> SayItIsntSo: “I'd also like to say that I served in the crypt during the Convocation tours several times. Say what we will, but there is a vibration in that location that will drop a person to their knees.”

On page 4 of "The Real Question" thread, in my 1/14/04, 2:57 pm post "Co-Dependency & the Guru-Disciple Relationship", I wrote on how these self-generated things take place, there's also a few simple experiments for the readers to try.

pub78.ezboard.com/fsrfwal...61&stop=80

A voice in the supermarket 
Registered User
(2/8/04 8:55 am)
Reply
Re: Face to Face with the Reality of Circumcision
Dear Yellowbeard,

I enjoyed your posting of February 7.


FACETS OF CIRCUMCISION AS ONE OF THE DEPARTURES FROM BEING ANATOMICALLY AS INTENTED

I agree: One should not mutilate oneself. There should be better things to do.

Then, what happened to baby Jesus? The Son of God came as one who needed circumcision, and he got it, for how could the flawless, Incarnated God be accepted among Jews unless - since the Law of Moses taught circumcision so sternly?

In the eyes of the Jews that stuck to the Law, a God Incarnated might never be not good enough without some invasive, biologically unfounded procedure . . .


A TOUGH ATTITUDE -

If the foreskin is tight, one should know there are gentle means of widening it. Consult a doctor for it, and he will see what he can do (I guess it could be wise to avoid a Jewish doctor at this point, as they are not unbiased).

Even a little self-help work may do in some cases. You have to know the specifics (remember the doctor's advice there) And yes, it is just the sort of thing you may try at home -

As for the fabled guru-disciple relationship, some have found it too hard to widen the person's life openings (wide term) due to cramped belief that in some cases breed nervousness. (1)

"What I say here no one has to (or even should) believe." [Yellowbeard, 7 Feb] (2) A fit attitude indeed! But how can be disbelieve the one we believe in in this way? It looks like a paradox. It is. It is not unlike "Renunciation of renunciation is much renunciation".

"WHERE are those tears for the everyday people . . .?
Some are more emotional than others. The are categorised as Number 2 people in Gurdjieff's overall system.
Number 3 is an intellectual, he sees things better.

—SRF was not about Self-realization, nor was it about fellowship (which implies a group of equals). It was about Yogananda-realization. It was about worship and subservience . . ."
[Yellowbeard, 7 Feb] (4)
Worship or bhakti is definitely of Number 2 types.

Yellowbeard, your sentiment is excellent!

"THIS IS my warning—Circumcision . . . it's still widely practiced . . . Perhaps Voice could fill us in on that one. (5)

See further down.

"Finally I said enough is enough. I started the process of shaking all these beliefs and tightly knit dualistic concepts from the mind that were ingrained there through my SRF training. That's when I started "Cult Busters - SRF Division" and then started posting on the Walrus. Writing these things out seemed like and turned out to be very helpful for this process. And also it created the possibility of it being helpful to others at the same time." [Yellowbeard, 7 Feb] (6)

Thanks for that!


THE DECLINE IN CIRCUMCISION

Here are figures from the UK (United Kingdom):

Johnson et al. surveyed 7990 British men (1990) and found that 21.9 percent of all men in the survey were circumcised. There was a sharp division by age group. The oldest are the most likely to be circumcised while the youngest group is the least likely to be circumcised.

The 2000 British National Survey of Sexual Attitudes and Lifestyles (Natsal 2000) found that 15.8 percent of British males aged 16 to 44 reported being circumcised. The incidence of circumcision was highest in the men aged 40-44 at 19.6 percent [born 1956-60 ] and lowest in the group aged 16-19 [born 1981-84] at 11.7 percent. Men of ethnic minorities (except black Caribbeans) were signficantly more likely to circumcised than those described as "white". Jews were 98.7 percent circumcised and Sikhs, Hindus, and Buddists were only 9.8 percent circumcised.

The British Medical Association (BMA) take the ethical position that doctors have a right to conscientiously object to the performance of non-therapeutic male circumcisions of children on moral, ethical, or legal grounds. The BMA consider male circumcision to be an invasive, radical procedure, and state that unless conservative treatments are tried first, a therapeutic circumcision would be unethical.

www.cirp.org/library/statistics/UK/


MORE ON THE MENTAL ASPECTS

Male circumcision (AS WELL AS LOSS OF SENSITIVE ARTISTRY AND THE LIKE) causes psychological changes. The trauma of the experience is injurious. It can have long-term deleterious effects later in life -- Anand and Scalzo suggest that early trauma predisposes to altered pain sensitivity, stress disorders, ADD/hyperactivity, and self-destructive disorders.

Hill (1997) reports the tendency of circumcised doctors and religious officials to cite false medical or religious grounds to justify circumcision.

The study of the psychology of circumcision can be divided into several interrelated areas:

1. The effects of pain and perinatal trauma on the child;
2. Grieving the loss of a body part;
3. Effects of early trauma and loss in the adult;
4. The effects on the parent (parental-infant bonding);
5. The effects on society;
6. Factors influencing parents and doctors to request or perform circumcisions.

Ahem: Those who fill in 'SENSITIVE ARTISTIC TAKES' for "body part" or "foreskin" in the list and below (NB), may see things that are growing interesting by way of some of the 6 entries on the list, little by little.

Parents need to be aware that circumcision [maybe also loss of SENSITIVE ARTISTIC DOINGS can be] dangerous. Circumcision involves traumatic loss of a body part. There is a definite potential for long-lasting psychologic injury. However, children differ unpredictably in their resilience to pain, trauma, and loss. Some individuals will be affected more seriously than others. Much more research is needed before we can fully understand the psychologic and social consequences of this traumatic life event.

www.cirp.org/library/psych/

---------------------------------

Chirp: "If they don't wake up now, they never will."

---------------------------------

Edited by: A voice in the supermarket  at: 2/9/04 9:45 am
A voice in the supermarket 
Slow Down
(2/9/04 9:58 am)
Reply
Re: Face to Face with the Reality of Circumcision
Dear Yellowbeard,

I agree with you up to completely. You write:

Quote:
Mutilating your child's genitals right after they pop out of the womb is really a hideous introduction . . .

Some try to give it legitimacy by saying that it's done to prevent infection.


This belief was wide-spread earlier, but research has undermined it today. See the articles I referred to above.

Quote:
Dice your children up for God -- sound's great.


Many things that sound great among humans aren't great in a taller perspective. An upanishad declares,

Quote:
"Above the senses is the mind. Above the mind is the intellect. Above the intellect is the ego. Above the ego is [a] Primal Cause. [And beyond it] is the (unconditioned) Self. [see Katha Upanishad 2.6.7-8]"

"The Self . . . dwells deep within the heart [also called the city of Brahman], lord of time, past and future." [Cf. Katha Upanishad 2.4.12]"


And the Self and Brahman-God is NOT "what people here adore". I find that sooooooo significant.

YellowBeard420
Slow Down
(2/9/04 1:17 pm)
Reply
Not What People Here Adore
> 'A Voice in the Supermarket' wrote: “And the Self and Brahman-God is NOT "what people here adore". I find that sooooooo significant.”

Agreed. It's a particularly significant point.

----------
That which cannot be expressed in words but by which the tongue speaks -- know that to be Brahman. Brahman is not the being who is worshiped of men.

That which is not comprehended by the mind but by which the mind comprehends -- know that to be Brahman. Brahman is not the being who is worshiped of men. (Kena Upanishad, I.5-6.)

If you think that you know well the truth of Brahman, know that you know little. What you think to be Brahman in your self, or what you think to be Brahman in the Gods -- that is not Brahman. What is indeed the truth of Brahman you must therefore learn. (Kena Upanishad, II.1.)

www.erowid.org/spirit/tra...kena.shtml
----------

[Edited to correct a typo.]

Edited by: YellowBeard420 at: 2/9/04 1:22 pm
Punk Yogi
Registered User
(2/9/04 2:15 pm)
Reply
Circumcised Sensitive Artistic Doings
Raja Begum gave us these words by Dr. Nathaniel Branden, which somehow remind me of what Voice is saying about sensitive artistic doings (if I'm interpreting it correctly?)...

Quote:
I have in my files a quote by Dr. Nathaniel Branden explaining the damaging consequences of dissociation. If you feel inspired, you can pick up a copy of his book "The Art of Living Consciously" wherein this eloquent quote can be found:

"To disown means to cease to recognize as our own. We can be alienated from -- inadequately conscious of --- our bodies, our needs and wants, our feelings and emotions, our actions and reactions, our thoughts and values, or our abilities and capacities. We can be strangers to ourselves in many different possible respects. We can act without recognizing the roots of our actions. We can be afraid without knowing what we are afraid of and long without knowing what we long for. These are some of the meanings of self-alienation and self-disowning. "

"A consequence of this process is that we radically restrict our sense of self. We have less access to our inner signals, and consequently we become more dependent on signals from others. We may need others to tell us what to think, how to live, when to express which emotion (if at all), what is right or wrong, and so forth."

"At minimum, we pay a price in suffering, when we inappropriate in our responses and frustrated in our life. But sometimes we pay even a worse price, as when, for instance -- 'What stress are you talking about?' asks a driven, workaholic salesman of forty-eight a moment before he drops dead of a heart attack."

Edited by: Punk Yogi at: 2/9/04 2:16 pm
redpurusha
Registered User
(2/12/04 7:13 am)
Reply
Re: Face to Face with Reality as it Is
Luke 27 within the context of a parable.

The Parable of the Ten Minas

11While they were listening to this, he went on to tell them a parable, because he was near Jerusalem and the people thought that the kingdom of God was going to appear at once.

12He said: "A man of noble birth went to a distant country to have himself appointed king and then to return. 13So he called ten of his servants and gave them ten minas.[1] 'Put this money to work,' he said, 'until I come back.' 14"But his subjects hated him and sent a delegation after him to say, 'We don't want this man to be our king.' 15"He was made king, however, and returned home. Then he sent for the servants to whom he had given the money, in order to find out what they had gained with it. 16"The first one came and said, 'Sir, your mina has earned ten more.' 17" 'Well done, my good servant!' his master replied. 'Because you have been trustworthy in a very small matter, take charge of ten cities.' 18"The second came and said, 'Sir, your mina has earned five more.' 19"His master answered, 'You take charge of five cities.' 20"Then another servant came and said, 'Sir, here is your mina; I have kept it laid away in a piece of cloth. 21 I was afraid of you, because you are a hard man. You take out what you did not put in and reap what you did not sow.' 22"His master replied, 'I will judge you by your own words, you wicked servant! You knew, did you, that I am a hard man, taking out what I did not put in, and reaping what I did not sow? 23Why then didn't you put my money on deposit, so that when I came back, I could have collected it with interest?' 24"Then he said to those standing by, 'Take his mina away from him and give it to the one who has ten minas.' 25" 'Sir,' they said, 'he already has ten!' 26"He replied, 'I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what he has will be taken away. 27But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them--bring them here and kill them in front of me.’ ”

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