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etzchaim Registered User (1/27/04 7:05 am) Reply	Working together, for Soulcircle This is what we need: www.muslim-refusenik.com/ She is receiving death threats from other Muslims. God protect her. Here is a review of her book, to give Soulcircle, and others who are interested, an idea of what working together is like. It involves mutual respect, difficult introspection and the fortitude to fight blind and ignorant hatred and blind prejudice: Learning to love Islam Yossi Klein Halevi Jerusalem Post January 15, 2004 In recent months I've had a strange and moving e-mail correspondence with my friend Irshad Manji. Irshad, a young Toronto journalist whose Indian-born parents fled Uganda after Idi Amin's takeover, has recently published a book called The Trouble with Islam, which takes the form of an extended open letter to her fellow Muslims. It's passionate, courageous, and astonishingly funny - just like Irshad herself. Irshad's provocative point is contained in her title: The "trouble" isn't only with Islamism but with mainstream Islam itself. The glorification of jihad, the subjugation of women, the relegation of Jews and Christians to permanent inferior status (dhimmitude) - all are expressions of normative Islam. Irshad is particularly outraged at Arab - and, by extension, Muslim - hatred of Israel. She understands what most of the world does not: that the Arab world's antipathy toward Israel is a monstrous attempt to deflect onto the Jewish state the terrible failure of its own civilization. And she has taken the time to examine all the little lies that together form the new big lie: that the Arab world is the innocent victim of a rapacious Israel. Irshad notes the destructive role Islamic theology has played in the Arab-Israeli conflict. According to normative Islam, no non-Muslim sovereignty can be tolerated in lands once ruled by Islam. While that Islamic principle applies, for example, to Spain as well as to Israel, in Israel's case the offense is immeasurably greater, since the Jewish state is located in the Muslim heartland. For years, many Israelis tried to deny the profound religious aspects of this conflict. And for good reason: A conflict over borders can be rationally negotiated, while a religious war can only be fought until one side concedes defeat. Yet after three years of jihadist terrorism, it's no longer possible to deny the religious overtones of this struggle. For if the intifada were merely a national uprising against occupation rather than a religious war against Jewish sovereignty, why haven't any of the suicide bombers been Palestinian Christians? Islam, it is true, does make room under its rule for Jews and Christians - but that's precisely the problem. The operative phrase is "under its rule." The trouble with Islam's tolerance, then, is that it is essentially medieval. For Islam to grow, at least part of the faith needs to develop a modern model of religious pluralism as large parts of Christianity and Judaism have done in recent decades. As a friend, as an Israeli, I cherish Irshad. With the publication of her book, Irshad has joined the moral elite of those ready to risk their lives for truth. Still, for all my deep appreciation for Irshad, she and I have an ongoing argument. And what's poignant about our e-mail debates is that I, a religious Jew, have been trying to convince her about the need to emphasize not only Islam's problems but also its beauty and power, while she insists that her fellow Muslims need to hear the unadorned truth about Islam's dark side. In her book she quotes one of my e-mails to her: "Your narrative needs more love. Not for the mullahs but for the billions of souls over the centuries who prostrated on little embroidered prayer rugs and offered their small unhappy lives to God's glory." And here is Irshad's response to me as it appears in her book: "Excuse me for ruining the moment, but why should so many lives be 'small' and 'unhappy,' especially under a merciful God? And please don't tell me these things happen when religions are on the defensive, because even as Islam entered its golden age, lives were small and lies were big. Remember that the caliph al-Ma'mum trumpeted free will, yet flogged people for disagreeing with his interpretation of Islam. Not much has changed in that regard, has it?" And so allow me to explain why I cherish Islam. In late 1998, I began a year-long pilgrimage into Islam (and Christianity), in Israel and the territories. My intention was to test whether a religious Jew could find a common language of devotion and prayer with Muslims and Christians. I joined Christian monastics in silent meditation and Sufi Muslim mystics in their exuberant dances and lived, as much as possible, according to their religious calendars. During that year, I learned something of the power of Muslim prayer, which immerses the entire body in choreographed surrender. And I learned to feel at home in a mosque - an experience that now seems to me almost surreal. But beyond its spiritual power, I learned that Islam, like all great religions, contains powerful tools for renewal and growth - including the potential capacity to reconcile with a Jewish state. One such tool is a Muslim's profound awareness of mortality. The dark side of that awareness, of course, is a brooding fatalism that nurtures the culture of suicide bombings. The positive side, though, is a Muslim ability to place the events of this life in the perspective of eternity. Almost invariably, when arguing with a Muslim, I've been told "Why should we argue? How many more years do you and I have left in this world anyway?" The Palestinian equivalent to that conversation goes like this: "Why are we fighting over who owns the land when it's the land that owns us? After all, soon you and I will both belong to the earth..." That humility before death can lead to the wisdom of compromise. As the Catholic Church has proven, even the most entrenched theologies of contempt toward another faith can change. And there are, after all, Muslims who have accepted Israel - from Turkey's Islamist rulers to leading Muslim clerics in the non-Arab world, especially Indonesia and India. As the crisis in the Muslim world intensifies, reformers will need to draw on the spiritual resources within Islam to justify their political and theological innovations. Fortunately for us all, those resources amply exist. Which brings me to my argument with Irshad. Of course Irshad is right that Muslims need to be told the truth, and that the religious equivalent of political correctness only encourages Muslim self-pity and evasion of self-criticism. Still, Muslims also need to know that their faith, and their integrity as people of faith, aren't under attack. Easing Muslims' sense of cultural and spiritual siege - even as the necessary military siege against Islamist terrorism and its vast infrastructure intensifies - may help the reformist argument to be heard. On second thought, perhaps Irshad and I aren't really arguing. As a Muslim dissident, struggling within the faith, Irshad can allow herself to speak bluntly to her fellow Muslims. And Irshad has, after all, written her angry book as a Muslim, not an ex-Muslim. And that is crucial because the real war for the future of religion isn't being fought between competing faiths or even between secularists and believers but within each faith - between its fundamentalists, who limit God's greatness to the triumph of their way, and its pluralists, who believe that God is great enough to accommodate multiple paths to truth. While Irshad has responsibilities as a Muslim dissident, non-Muslims have responsibilities too. Our critique of Islam requires a nuanced tone. We should offer Islam not just our criticism but our respect and, if possible, our love. And Irshad - this justifiably enraged young woman who still insists on calling herself a Muslim - has given me one more reason to love Islam. The writer is author of At the Entrance to the Garden of Eden: A Jew's Search for God with Christians and Muslims in the Holy Land and an associate fellow at the Shalem Center.
rachelcorrie Registered User (1/27/04 9:00 am) Reply	the intention of the Guru of Working Together Aries to Aries~~~ Laughing so hard I am crying We are both Aries. Are the "others," inclusive of any Aries, sun. moon, rising, etc.!!? You are great at fighting fire with fire. Go etzchaim *Quote:* Here is a review of her book, to give Soulcircle, and others who are interested, an idea of what working together is like ?? There's no doubt I soulcircle am dumb, so give me a little help. You have begun a thread with the above post. You start the thread and post with the quote here. You clearing are saying that the review is to give Soulcircle and others (do you others have any help in the following, you "others"????????????????)--- to give people "an idea of what working together is like" Dave is clueless about your intention I am to be grateful to you for the idea for the gift of this idea apparently the idea of working togerther is something people "give" to each other I am going back to Jason's side and also back to consulting with people (as a nutritionist) who are being cured to a smaller or larger degree from: Acrodermatitis Chronica Atrophicans (ACA) Acute Transitionary Atroventricular Block Allergies Arrhythmia Arthritus Attention Deficit Disorder (ADD) Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD) Autoimmune disorders Bell's Palsy Chronic Encephalitis and Encephalomyelitis Chronic Fatigue Syndrome Cognitive Dysfunction Complex Regional Pain Syndrome (CRPS) Cranial Polyneuritis Demyelinating Disorders Depression Encephalopathy Erythema Chronic Migrans Fibromyalgia Meningitis Meningoencephalomyelitis Multiple Schlerosis Myopericarditis Parkinson's Disease Progressive Visual Deterioration Reversible Dementia Sensory or Motor Radiculoneurapathies Sleeping Disorders It is remarkable that you share so much and share it so well etxchaim But I hope to learn how to read someday, if someone will give me the idea of reading. ---Because the quote at the top of this post from your post, sounds more like a bomb that prose, and in the interest of self-preservation I will dash for cover. I claim nothing but insanity, and yet I do feel the insane know an "insult bomb" from a mile away. I do. I had no idea about working together with people, and as insane as I am, am not in the position to except any "giving" from you etzchaim. ~~~~~~~~~~ you say to give an idea of what working together is like so the whole post is introduced with the intention of giving a poison pen letter, starting as an insult to others and myself [then, yet only then the letter becomes sweet and a remarkable sharing on your part of friendship, the highest bravery of your friend and a discussion of a deeply complex problem affecting the whole world I am running as fast as I can from being blown to pieces by you. Yet you do not mean to harm me at all? you sure? Maybe you are aware---------in addressing me and others are aware you are putting up with insane me working together with others is what we all need, maybe a cure for my insanity I touch your feet Guru of Working Together [and if a joke is in order I am sure it will be delivered] I actually think you, others and I are beyond hilarious ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~far beyond the insane "big bang" circle
etzchaim Registered User (1/27/04 9:10 am) Reply	Fascinating defensiveness Indeed, you are clueless.
etzchaim Registered User (1/27/04 9:33 am) Reply	Her reasons for calling for free thinking in Islam "Why I'm struggling with Islam As refugees from Idi Amin's Uganda, my family and I settled just outside of Vancouver in 1972. I grew up attending two types of schools: the secular public school of most North American kids and then, for several hours at a stretch every Saturday, the Islamic religious school (madressa). I couldn't quite reconcile the open and tolerant world of my public school with the rigid and bigoted world inside my madressa. But I had enough faith to ask questions -- plenty of them. My first question for my madressa teacher was, "Why can't girls lead prayer?" I graduated to asking more nuanced questions, such as, "If the Koran came to Prophet Muhammad as a message of peace, why did he command his army to kill an entire Jewish tribe?" You can imagine that such questions irritated the hell out of my madressa teacher, who routinely put down women and trashed the Jews. He and I reached the ultimate impasse over yet another question: "Where," I asked, "is the evidence of the 'Jewish conspiracy' against Islam? You love to talk about it, but what's the proof?" That question, posed at the age of 14, got me booted out of the madressa. Permanently. At this point, I had a choice to make: I could walk away from my Muslim faith and get on with being my "emancipated" North American self, or I could give Islam another chance. Out of fairness to the faith, I gave Islam another chance. And another. And another. For the past 20 years, I've been educating myself about Islam. As a result, I've discovered a progressive side of my religion -- in theory. But I remain a hugely ambivalent Muslim because of what's happening "on the ground" -- massive human rights violations, particularly against women and religious minorities -- in the name of Allah. Liberal Muslims say that what I'm describing isn't "true" Islam. But these Muslims should own up to something: Prophet Muhammad himself said that religion is the way we conduct ourselves toward others. By that standard, how Muslims actually behave is Islam, and to sweep that reality under the rug of theory is to absolve ourselves of any responsibility for our fellow human beings. That's why I'm struggling. That's why I'm passionate. And that leads me to what I consider to be the trouble with Islam."
etzchaim Registered User (1/27/04 9:42 am) Reply	"Guru" the ultimate insult! I'm flabergasted Nay ...I'm approaching a level of paranoia and fear of the cult I am trying to program you into! I do apologize for "violently" presenting this to you and implying that you do not know how to "work together", it was meant to be a reference to Muslims and Jews working together for Peace in the Middle East, and not opposing each other, as I have repeatedly said that there is no way to have unilateral peace and it came off as 'personal', it was bad communication. So I apologize for this "bomb", this orgy of Guru mind control... Edited by: etzchaim at: 1/27/04 11:36 am
rachelcorrie Registered User (1/27/04 12:33 pm) Reply	you have made a gift aopology unnecessary my insanity has often been a whip of unkindness i too apologize your first post is truly a gift, now that the storm of its opening is cleared i mean truly a gift though understanding and togetherness a future can be imagined without suicide bombers and nuclear bombs and without war as an option until the dialogue you bring up in your first post can be apreciated more widely and you and authors who are your friends can be admired and studied from your visits to mosques and on through your openness and compassion and fight for justice gifts/ripples go out and throughout the world community as you have said the prognosis is bleak the reality is defense and war and misunderstanding and death yet as in "Meet Me in the Morning," the Dylan song the last on Jason Becker's CD Perspective in that song the line comes often to me the darkest hour is just before dawn thank you for the light in your actions, words and spirit/heart etzchaim soulcircle/rachelcorrie/[and if I may] Irshad Manji / Yossi Klein Halevi Edited by: rachelcorrie at: 1/27/04 12:46 pm
chuckle chela Registered User (1/27/04 2:30 pm) Reply	Re: you have made a gift Etzy,I think she's fabulous, and I've thought that it would be good for people in SRF to read her book. The parallels between her struggle with Islam and us SRF members' struggle with the SRF hierarchy have many parallels. I've heard her speak and she is compelling and captivating. And gutsy as can be. You can't help but admire her. I agree wholeheartedly with Halevi about the significance of fundamentalism. It is currently sweeping the world, in Christianity (within both Catholicism and many Protestant churches), in Islam, in Hinduism. I find it a frightening trend, if for no other reason than that it threatens to separate the developing world (where fundamentalism is growing most rapidly, and where, indeed, it is fulfilling some legitimate needs) from the developed world. But the concerns with fundamentalism go far beyond just that, as significant as it is. For any not familiar with Manji's book, like Etzy I would encourage you to check her out. Her website is great. She will (if she has time) exchange emails with you. She has a brilliant mind and is wonderful in discussion or debate: funny, articulate, passionate, tenacious, incisive. God help those who engage her without being prepared: she slices them neatly into tiny, little bits before they know what has happened to them.
etzchaim Registered User (1/27/04 6:02 pm) Reply	Re: you have made a gift Chuckle, yeah, I did the fundamentalist thing in Orthodox Judaism. I went in having intense mystical experiences and realizations and left wondering how I got to believe that I needed Rabbinical supervision to make sure a spice is kosher. It took me several months after separating from my x to feel ok about wearing my hair uncovered in public. I got really sick of feeling that, as a woman, I couldn't read more advanced texts. Some isolated 'haredi' actually do not allow girls and women to read beyond the first two books of Moses, the Psalms and a couple other 'harmless' books. There is an undercurrent of thought that women become 'unstable' if they learn too much! This is a world where a person's learning tends to reflect one place in society. It's considered wealth. I'm developing a sense of humor about it now. Like Manji, I don't want to give up my beliefs, I just want them to be sane beliefs and truly based in a 'Godly' side of the tradition (whatever that really means...). There is no room for an approval of disrespect for other people and the rigidity has to go! I started noticing the intensifying of fundamentalism once I got out of it, but it's been growing for some time now. Remember all the media hype in the 80's over the 'Culture Wars'? Not that this can explain in totally, but I think that there are too many changes going on in the world, and in a certain sense, too much abuse of freedom, at least in the west, or the 'old ways' are changing so fast that people are looking for 'certainty', or trying to hold onto the more stable past, but it goes against the growth that's taking place, so it turns into a kind of 'clawing' fundamentalism. It's like people are dividing into very clear groups of 'believers' and 'non-believers'. It even shows up in the Sciences, and today I had a discussion with a musician who's seen it in music - there's a 'right' way and a 'wrong' way to play classical guitar! Then he said: "It's hard to be in the middle, because both sides will appose you!" I thought that was priceless... I've found that 'fundamentalisms' are all paralleling each other, once you scratch the surface. I relate to a good deal of what I'm seeing people go through here. Even the negative spewing reminds me of a process I had to go through. It's all a part of reacting to fundamentalism. Edited by: etzchaim at: 1/27/04 6:21 pm
etzchaim Registered User (1/27/04 6:06 pm) Reply	Re: you have made a gift Soulcircle, Aries: Initial fire, too soon reacting. Burns quickly, doesn't smolder. Doesn't bear a grudge.
WindChimes44 Registered User (4/18/04 4:47 am) Reply	Re: Irshad Manji I have read wonderful excerpts on beliefnet from her book and I think I will order it. I agree that the fundamentalists vs the modernizers in all faiths is an uncanny phenomenon. The Christian fundamentalists are even interested in the Jewish fundamentalists rebuilding the temple since it figures so prominently in Revelations. Buddhist fundamentalists are picketing the Dalai Lama! My grandmother was born in a sod house in 'Indian Territory' and lived to see men step onto the moon. Is the rate of change too much for some of us? Another possible factor-- I think most of humanity shares a suspicion that there is something terribly amiss with our current world course. The rapid destruction of all cultures but the one 'western modern' culture, the rapid destruction of the environment, the struggle to find what comes after nationalism, with corporate feudalism not looking very good. And we react variously. Some want to go back in time, to when they did not have to lock their doors, for example. They become the fundamentalists. Some want to redirect the flow to a saner future. They become the activists. Some cower in an astounding array of urban legends. They become survivalists. Some just don't want to think about it. They become materialistic tv drones. (very overgeneralized) Of course a tension between change and holding fast is a good thing in the largest sense, but the current extremes are unsettling. For myself, I think the future we visualize together is the future we will get, a kind of meta democracy. I am visualizing many awakenings leading to gentler people finding our way together.
moyma Registered User (4/18/04 3:45 pm) Reply	Re: Irshad Manji kali yuga to dwarpara yuga a time of rapid change where the old definitions do not work to define your reality ,but people still cling to the old ways for protection......the lesson of this age is that no corner of the world will be safe ! It will get worse before it gets better. find God Now..... by breaking the mental barrier's that seperate us....this woman is a warrior, as we all should be. warrior's for the light ! what did the great yogi say when awakened last week? His frist question was, What yuga is this ? when they answer Dwapara he said, no thanks and went back into samadhi....

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