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Notice the Noticer
Registered User
(6/15/03 3:03 pm)
Reply 		Hierarchy vs Cooperation
KS's post about Kali Yuga prompts this contribution, but it is within a closed thread (Emotional abuse and karmic training). He questions, amusingly, why most monastic traditions would look to the past for inspiration when the past was the Kali Yuga. Other comments in the thread speak of SRF's propensity for excusing their own egregious behavior by calling it "training." I myself tried, but failed, to buy into that lie, and ended up leaving in disgust, confusion, and self-doubt.

Anyway, the Kali Yuga remark reminds me of something I've heard from various sources about the differing natures of the Piscean age and Aquarian age. Apparently, hierarchy was the predominant, and appropriate, model of group structure in the Piscean age, but will cease to function effectively during the next 2,000 years. It will be replaced by cooperative effort.

It seems that, at the end of cycles, there is extremism. Whatever's about to be "thrown out" clings for dear life and gets distorted. SRF seems to be embodying this, wouldn't you think?

It was helpful for me to come across this theory because so much of the religious literature has to do with obediance and following a leader, that it's hard to justify not doing so. Especially those of us indoctrinated by the likes of SRF, and PY's own emphasis on the guru paradigm, might have trouble letting go of that dogma. But Leslie Temple-Thurston (a purportedly awakened Western teacher, see www.corelight.org if interested), among others, has stated that even in the arena of spiritual lineage, the hierarchy paradigm is changing. She says the current/outgoing way is for people to go "through" a guru, and that the newer way is for the teacher to stand BESIDE the door and point the way. She herself has done both, depending on the needs of the individual, but says she expects the older way to eventually be unnecessary.

My comment may not belong in this forum ("mistreatment"); it's just that so much of the mistreatment would not even exist if we didn't tend to accept the role of underlings or spiritual inferiors who depend on some kind of help to "get there" -- only to find out that the "help" ranges from moderate aid to insane abuse. NOT that I am blaming anyone for having fallen into that trap! I'm just posting this in case it helps anyone else see they don't have to put themselves in the position of "lowerarchy" in order to know their True Nature.

Even Leslie's description of a teacher who "points the way" might be seen as old-school, since in fact Truth, and infinite support, are always Here.

dawnrays
Registered User
(6/15/03 5:40 pm)
Reply 		Re: Hierarchy vs Cooperation
Very insightful and well said. I believe that this is the relationship which many people enjoy with thier guru and which our guru apparently enjoyed with God.

My relationship with Master (of himself) has developed into a very nice and interesting partnership that has all the ups and downs of any of my other relationships. This is the kind of relationship which he has indicated to me (through my sadhanas) that he wants and it is certainly the kind that I want. It is the kind of honesty that has made it more and more difficult for me to attend srf and to associate with the "traditional" devotee, complete with wonder, awe and slavish (boring) devotion (yes, I am a worm but ONE DAY in some distant future life time, I will be UP THERE where MY GURU is). I am telling you that day can be today or any time you want. There is nothing like looking straight into your guru's eyes (he can't see you from down there!).

Sometimes words like these come as a shock to others, even my own husband, so usually I don't say them.

I am prompted by the straightforward honesty of your post and I hope I have not offended anybody. I humbly bow to the God in you.

Jai Guru,

dawnrays

Edited by: dawnrays at: 6/15/03 11:34 pm
KS
Registered User
(6/15/03 7:54 pm)
Reply 		Re: Hierarchy vs Cooperation
Noticer,
Very interesting post. The idea of a partnership with the guru is very interesting. Why not? Old school thinking does indeed think in terms of hierarchies and so we interpret everything we see in terms of master and slave. The idea of a cooperative effort rings more true to me. Very interesting. The Master / Slave interpretation seems to hold us back.

Insulting to the Guru? I think not. This relationship model does not assume that both know the same about any particular part of the path to be taken. The guru certainly knows more about metaphysics but who makes the effort and in the end the decisions? In the Master / Slave model it is assumed that the devotee is an unthinking robot that surrenders their will power. The partnership model seems more powerful with two oars in the water. Doesn’t it?

The Guru is certainly without the ego that would stand in the way of this model. The guru wants what is best for the seeker. I bet if we read the unedited words of real Gurus we will find evidence of this.

Edited by: KS at: 6/15/03 7:55 pm
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