June 2003 - www.ezboard.com

SRF Walrus

Mt. Washington, Ca

Open discussions about SRF

SRF Walrus > Layoffs - The downsizing of SRF has begun > June 2003
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soulcircle Registered User (6/17/03 1:52 am) Reply	yes chuckle chela Guests and All, Deva called Monday the June 16th. I had left the seminar on listening in May more quietly than might have been portrayed when I wrote my earlier post wanting to seem like a true resister. I was clearly deep in the back of the room, and at the time I don't know if anyone realized I left. I wondered if he was reaching out to me to caution or rebuke me. Well, he rang me yesterday and I picked up the phone and it was him. Our friendship is over 20 years old. We talked of some substance, and it became personal enough that it will remain private. Yet, don't think that is was all that warm and not full of pain. You may contact me one on one and in that much less public way, and perhaps continue exploring this. And our friendship seemed strengthened. He took questions about his position being a sham and I listened to concerned about my negativity. There was much more, and I was very hesitant early in conversation and wasn't available for an "appointment" this month. chuckle chela, interesting that you asked specifically, because otherwise, I thought the time he gave somewhat freely was touching, and I too would air him out less publically. Also in your post, you take the time to explore to some depth the love and respect we might have for all, not all their behavior, but their humaneness, and the inspiration of their live's path. I like what you wrote of and how you developed it!! Hi I am Dave an srf aholic and as a co-dependent an enabler, we learn a little by observing when we are just talking the talk, and if we walk the walk soulcircle
KS Registered User (6/17/03 6:25 am) Reply	Cut the boys and girls camp some slack? I completely agree that Devananda is a good man, very sincere and kind. He certainly did suffer at the hands of SRF. But what did he do with that lesson? I am reminded of the story where a man is caught in a flood on top of his house. He was deeply spiritual and prayed to God to save him. A boat came by and he refused it. God will save me!. Next another boat, then a helicopter. The man finally died. In heaven he asked God why he didn’t save him! I sent two boats and a helicopter! What sign from Master is Devananda waiting for? Master has shown him over and over what the organization really is. There is nothing magic about it. Organizations come and go, they are nothing special which must be maintained. You questioned the level of courage needed to leave or stay. The issue of courage comes from the fact that some attraction for SRF, either for the rock star status, the easier life, the fear of trying to make it on their own, the fear of being labeled a failure, a false sense of loyalty, or what ever causes them to continue to support and lend credibility to those bad ladies who have hijacked Master’s work and reputation. Deva’s vows were made to a lie, to a shell organization. History is full of stories like this where cults or governments confuse the issues of loyalty for their own purposes. Was his vow to the ORGANIZATION or to Master and God? There needs to be some clear thinking on this issue. I think those who have left are showing much more courage and loyalty to Master than those who cling to the organization. Most of those still in there are just hiding from the world, shaking in their boots that they might have to support themselves while also afraid on a day to day basis of the bad ladies and their secret nun police. The courage required to spend 10 to 15 years in that place and then head out on your own to start over is tremendous. I would not dishonor the great hardship these people go through to leave by equating it with a monk or nuns decision to “hang in there” and hope for a change in the organization. There is no comparison. One is based in courage and hope and faith while the other is based on wishful thinking, laziness, and delusion. Again, Devananda is a very good man, however delusion is a difficult school. What good does he think he is doing the world, himself, or Master by being there? I wonder what his answer would be? Has MAYA sucked him in so deep that he thinks he is going to help save SRF and by that make the world a better place? Does he think he is serving Master by the things he puts up with and is forced to do? Does he really? He should keep a diary and review what he does over a month. Edited by: KS at: 6/17/03 6:30 am
ranger20 Registered User (6/17/03 8:27 am) Reply	Re: Cut the boys and girls camp some slack? *Quote:* Organizations come and go, they are nothing special which must be maintained. I admit that in relation to a lot of the content on this board I'm still in the "Say it ain't so!" phase. But I have to say that if there hadn't been some organization to publish the Autobiography and the lessons (warts and all) I might well be dead. My life was on an accelerating crash-and-burn trajectory when I found the AY. So I guess I'm heartened by every story of someone still hoping things can be turned around from within, even if the odds seem as slim as Frodo's chance of getting the ring to Mt. Doom. I've thought a lot about people's blind spots. A very nice friend of my wife's had an absolute genius for causing herself pain by dating smarmy men, but kept at it, and finally achieved her goal of getting married - disasterously. Perceptive in almost all other areas of her life, her friends kept wondering "why can't she see what's in front of her face?" I've had my wife ask me the same question about my not so happy work record. Sometimes courage or cowardice has less to do with it than perceptions and the sense you make of them. The other thing quite apparent, upon reflection, is that opinions on SRF seem to gravitate toward "all or nothing." Someday, if the organization can find the means to continue, it'll settle into shades of grey, made up of people who are neither devils or angels. Analogy to the Catholic church comes to mind, since the radio this morning carried news yet another prominent cleric in trouble. Their warts are serious and have lately become obvious. Yet a cathedral downtown stood up to the city to defend their right to give sanctuary to homeless people at night, and forced the city to stop trying to arrest those who are sleeping on their steps. I think the Catholic Church, and SRF (and the other major religions) are all divinely inspired - we're still stuck in believing that our leaders pick up that inspiration perfectly. Eventually we'll shed that illusion. I'm still hopeful it can be a soft landing, and if that's the notion that inspires Devananda and others to stay, I wish them the best!
dawnrays Registered User (6/17/03 8:52 am) Reply	Re: the company man who refuses to leave I don't think anybody likes this unhealthy focus on the renunciants, but really there has ALWAYS been an unhealthy focus on them. They have insisted on being the center of attention and power for many decades, much to the detriment of the householder and a more healthy and community minded srf. If some of them are simply "guilty by association", then they have certainly had thier share of adoration, also. I remember when Woody Allen "fell" (by marrying his step daughter) and I first heard the saying "the bigger the front, the bigger the back." It was the scandal of the year but all is forgotten now and this too shall pass... Also, there is alot more at stake here than people's personal views of the renunciants (though this has been so undervalued in favor of pr, I'm not too suprised that it's coming out now). Master, in my view, is the savior and the Christ of this age. He is a trendsetter of the highest order and is trying very hard to usher in a new age. In 50 or a hundred years, srf will be set in stone and it will be too late to change or question. The time is NOW. Whatever people may think of it's detractors and the likes of Ananda and others, they do provide srf with a check and balance system (which keeps them all more honest). Also, and I'm not saying this happened to you, but it has happened to others I know. I once was very close to a person who insisted that he was receiving the most wise and sage advice immaginable from a monk (he was very loyal srf). I took it at that, then got a little curious one day and asked him to specify some of (the advice) if it wasn't too personal. It was the most common place and most generalized "advice" I'd ever heard. It was also things that I and others had already told him (but we were not monks, so he didn't "hear" us). He had read so much into it because it had come from a monk and the attention was flattering to him. He had also had a very cold and distant relationship with his father and any time he recieved positive attention from an older man, he tended to over react. I have also sat through many very nice lectures, but also some that were practically insulting to the "audience" in their self absorbtion, irrelevance and arrogant "advice". It does not hurt these people to be bought to thier knees and humbled somewhat. That is spiritual life and the way of the world and it happens to us all. dawnrays Edited by: dawnrays at: 6/17/03 9:52 am
mangomoy Registered User (6/17/03 10:58 am) Reply	Re: Cut the boys and girls camp some slack? ranger20, You said; *Quote:* I have to say that if there hadn't been some organization to publish the Autobiography and the lessons (warts and all) I might well be dead. Your mild defense of the organization provokes this comment. This is the organization that says it protects & preserves the purity of Master's teachings, while radically altering PY's writings. Doubt that? Simply look at the Whispers from Eternity which in 1959 SRF substituted for what Master actually wrote & self-edited (the red one). There's no resemblance! Simply look at the original photos chronicling Master's work & activities, then compare to the manipulated versions of the same photos SRF puts out today. Revisionist history! Falsification! Simply look at the medieval adulation & fawning SRF promotes toward Faye Wright, whom Master did NOT say he "passed his spiritual mantle to", although Faye portrays it that way in one of her tape recordings. Master passed the presidency to Rajasi (not RajaRsi), not to Faye. (Faye arbitrarily changed the names Master personally bestowed on some people.) Look at how Master said SRF is supposed to be a "new dispensation," while Faye & cronies have built after the image of the Mormon & Catholic churches. Look at how Master was so open, while to the contrary, SRF says some of the writings are not for the lay members. Look at how at the end Master physically sent a book to the printer, & when he passed on SRF pulled it back, to process it through more than 40 years of additional editing before letting us have it. The SRF organization is W A Y off track, and in fact it OBSTRUCTS and HURTS Master's work. What do we even know about what Master said? Everything is filtered through SRF & is edited. Read the Lessons? They're largely written by Nirode, B. Kumar Bagchi (Swami Dhirananda), & others. Read the books & poems? They're edited by Laurie Pratt, & many others. Listen to recording of Master? SRF has altered them too, with some of PY's crucial statements cut out. Look at SRF's incompetent stewardship of the donated money. This SRF organization is W A Y W A Y W A Y off track. Lots of posts in other threads explore & suggest possible ways to improve it. These occasional ventings are very theraputic!
dawnrays Registered User (6/17/03 2:34 pm) Reply	Re: These occasional ventings are very theraputic! "These occasional ventings are very theraputic." Yes, I think so. There are five stages of grief. Not everyone experiences all of the five or in the same order, or spends the same amount of time on each one. They include anger, sorrow and denial. The solutions never come right away (after the initial shock.) It is important to work through these emotions. I think different people on this board are at varying stages of this process. dawnrays
True Enuf Registered User (6/17/03 7:06 pm) Reply	Re: Cut the boys and girls camp some slack? Mangomoy, granted, but perhaps Ranger was mainly alluding to the idea of organization (that's why he said some organization), not in particular what SRF has devolved into. It's not organization per se that's the problem. Of course he IS offering a slight defense, which is understandable, because 'some' can turn into 'any' (in this case SRF) when one receives a great benefit, such as from reading the AY, any edition. Ditto for Whispers, regardless of version. Master can shine through anything. It's just that in the later editions, it's "in spite of" not "because of."
KS Registered User (6/17/03 8:52 pm) Reply	Re: Cut the boys and girls camp some slack? RANGER20: “Other major religions”? Please. SRF wants you to believe they are a major religion but guess what? Eastern religion has never been about a centralized organization that acted as the go between to God. SRF is not needed. Remember that the AY and Lessons were published long ago. SRF held up the publishing of the Gita for ALMOST 50 YEARS for heavens sake. Want to imagine what it would be like without the Mata organization? Imagine the Gita published in 1950’s as well as the Second Coming of Christ. SRF does not even print the AY themselves and you can buy it on Amazon.com. You can even buy the Lessons on EBAY. And as Mangomoy says SRF takes a lot of liberties with Master’s writings! DAWNRAYS: Your post is correct. Since the bad ladies have taken over they have transformed SRF into a monastic centered organization. In Masters time the VP was a married man as was the first president of SRF after Master. The bad ladies whipped up the monastic order and filled it up with a privileged class in order to maintain control for themselves.
Lobo Registered User (6/17/03 10:37 pm) Reply	Re: Did Boom survive? Good Mr. Borg, Thanks for the update re: Sw. Dharmananda. He was featured in a photograph that I recently saw and it was obvious that he is undergoing some physical challenges. He was the first minister whom I had any significant interaction with during the time he was, along with Achalananda, at Fullerton Temple, late 60's-early 70's. He even picked me up hitchhiking to a Sunday evening meditation when he was returning from taking his mother and her friend to Disneyland. He told me that picking up hitchhikers was strictly banned by SRF, but he'd made an exception because he'd noticied me in that morning's Sunday service. He's from the southern part of the US, as were both my parents. I have always felt very close to him and that might be one of the reasons. He's very down to earth, not full of himself, yet always willing to cast a humorous remark into the conversation with a dry wit. He's geniuine. I hope that he's not suffering too terribly. He probably views his illness as a welcome event which is rapidly burning karma. He told me on a retreat, in reply to my question whether because of certain physical limitations was it o.k. to modify the mahamudra and use a cushion to meditate, "Of course it's o.k., how do you think I get this big body to do mahamudra?" Referring to the fact that he needs to use a chair as well. In other words, he cuts through the pretense ("oh brother, what is your opinion on this from on high?"), and says in effect, "Man, use your common sense!" Plus he tells great stories. For instance, "Brother Achalananda and I were roommates and we both worked at Douglas Aircraft in L.A. Guy (Achalananda) very excitedly told me that he'd read this great book and I just had to read it as well (the AY). So I did. When he asked me how I liked it, I told him, 'That's the best science fiction book I've ever read.'" And he told that one to a us during a Sunday service. Again, thanks for taking the time and allowing me to take a trip down nostalgia lane.
member108 Registered User (6/18/03 5:10 am) Reply	Old Guys I have mostly good impressions of Dharmananda as well. Anyone still there is a little suspect but there are some excuses. I believe in the 60s was the bad ladies were still not fully in control. The transition was slow to bleed out into every aspect the ashram life. By the late 80s it was a full on cult but by that time many of the older men like Dharm and Bro. Bhaktananda had many years in and had isolated themselves from the crazy ego maniac nuns. I wish they had been stronger to support their Guru's work but I don't fault them for staying. For them they must certainly see past the public divine mata images and cult thinking directly to Master. Lets hope they are the last generation that needs to. Edited by: member108 at: 6/18/03 5:11 am
Borg108 Registered User (6/19/03 12:04 pm) Reply	Re: Old Guys/Old Gals Up through the 1960's, SRF was still pretty much the shadow of Guruji. There were enough old timers around then to help keep it that way. When I was in India I read a book by a disciple of a saint I believe was named Omkarananda. The disciple describes how Daya Ma visited this saint on one of her trips to India in the early 1960's. After she meditated with him, she was open enough then to ask him for some spiritual advice. Meera Ma (mother of Mrinalini Ma and in charge of the Hollywood temple) also had Daya Ma's ear then. But after Meera's passing around 1970, there were no more trips to India by Daya Ma; the India Cafe at Hollywood, that kept SRF connected to the public and to the real world, was shut down; books and tapes by Daya Ma and the other disciples started to be marketed; convocations became important money raising events; and the entire tone of the organization changed to be more business like, narrowly focused, and "divinely inspired". KS is right on when he says that NVC is shunned by SRF leadership because it is not something that Guruji teaches, and SRF feels it's path has all the answers to life's challenges. But there is more to it than that. NVC actually challenges the entire SRF approach to life. In SRF philosophy, one should always have a positive mental attitude. Even if you don't really feel that way, you should "assume a virtue if you have it not". SRF (and Bro. Devananda) are willing to accept the very first part of NVC, which is observational. One simply recognizes and acknowledges what is happening. A bond starts to form when this happens because everyone is on the same wavelength. Issues are being identified, and the groundwork is being layed for what should come next. But SRF never gets to the next stage because it calls for identifying feelings and needs, which is when true empathy happens and problems get solved almost like magic. But according to the SRF paradigm, our feelings don't really matter, especially negative feelings. The only real need we all have is the need for God, so everything should be taken to God and Guru, and we should happily accept everything as God's will, especially if it comes from our "spiritual superiors". But Lord Krishna did not tell Arjuna to just pray and meditate at Kurukshetra. He told Arjuna to take up the struggle against what was wrong, even if it came through his family, friends and former teachers. Issues need to be identified and dealt with. That is what some of us are trying to do now through Walrus since we have no way to do so from within SRF.
OneTaste Registered User (6/19/03 12:40 pm) Reply	Re: the company man who refuses to leave Chuckle Chela: "Aw, gee, guys, can't we cut the monastics a bit of slack here?" This is a novel concept. Let’s run with it. "I find the referral to Devananda as some kind of "company man" a bit disheartening. . . . I'm told he finally had to admit that things just weren't going to change. Seems to me many others, including a number of Walrus contributers, have concluded the very same thing." I know that he vacillates on the idea of change, depending on, well, I don’t exactly know. One day he is gung ho, the next, withdrawn and looking as miserable as a puppy that’s been kicked one time too many. Dharmananda told me that he put Dev in charge of the retreat to “light a fire under him.” I guess it’s questionable whether or not the flame will hold. Dev told me that “things are never going to change in SRF,” which is sad enough, but this was the day after he got all fired up on some plans to do a major overhaul of the retreat. It was difficult to figure out the vacillation at the time, because I didn’t know any of the details of what had gone down prior. In context, it makes more sense. He is torn between doing the outward stuff and just chucking it and concentrating on the inner life. I know when I see him these days, he seems like a robot going through the motions. So, yes, I believe some compassion is in order for the guy. He ain’t perfect and is in a less than perfect situation. This makes him remarkably like, well, the rest of us, I guess. It’s easy to make black and white calls when it’s someone else besides ourselves. That everyone who has stayed in is a coward is no different than the line that those who leave are weak and can’t take the “training.” A little slack seems like the right course. Edited by: OneTaste at: 6/19/03 12:42 pm
dawnrays Registered User (6/19/03 1:32 pm) Reply	Re: the company man who refuses to leave I don't really see anybody making black and white calls to be honest. Outside of the Walrus, I don't see anybody really talking about this stuff at all. Of course inside srf there is the one thought, one mind situation which is of course why it doesn't change. The burntouts leave and many sort of hang out at the fringe and don't get too burnt but also don't get too involved with the organization (like me). I was never that deeply involved with it although I was devoted to Master and the teachings and my love for him has grown only. I was very confused by the mixed messages I was receiving before I finally left (gradually). I don't see anything wrong with hashing things out here and the fact that the organization won't change is not exactly a tragedy in my book. It will change or die because that is life. The world is changing, you are changing, I am changing and there are certainly other sources for the teachings and Kriya now. These things have manifested partly because srf refuses to grow and change. Really, it doesn't matter. One positive thing I will say and I personally know this to be a fact is that Brother Mitrananda gives GREAT lectures and he has said things to this effect before (if srf died, the teachings would spring up somewhere else). Also, if you know something to be wrong and abusive and you cannot change it, I believe you do have an obligation to leave, for yourself and for the God in you. It is wrong to lead others astray even if you are not directly doing it but simply enabling others to do so. The BOD has only a few members and without thier small army of monastics, members and donors, they are nothing. If you believe that they are wrong, it is also wrong not to speak against it and perhaps save others from the same sufferings. To say that God would keep someone in a situation where they have no choice but to go against His wishes, is practically like saying there is no God or that you don't believe in Him. Which is where many people are right now, in and out of the ashram. dawnrays Edited by: dawnrays at: 6/19/03 6:47 pm
X Insider Registered User (6/22/03 2:25 pm) Reply	For KS You wrote about monastics who leave compared to those who don't, referring specifically to Devananda. I want to speak for the great difficulty in leaving, especially when one has spent his ENTIRE ADULT LIFE in the ashram cult. You write your opinion of Devananda's action, or lack thereof. But would you be able to support him for the years it would take to recover and find his way in the world? Would you be able to offer him a retirement plan or medical benefits? Would you or anyone critical of monastic's choices be able to provide all they need to start over? Don't mistake me. I respect your right to state your opinion, but it reads like judgment to me and you have no idea what he or anyone else might have to face on leaving. You may say "Well, look at so-and-so who managed it." But everyone is different. Some have family support. Some have more adaptable inborn personalities. Give the guy a break.
dawnrays Registered User (6/22/03 2:54 pm) Reply	Re: For KS I think that it is the monastic's perceived lack of choices which so many are critical of and the system (not the poor people trapped in it) which is the problem. I think some people have to realize that this is a back and forth dialogue, people are changing and nothing is set in stone. In defense of KS, I think he is extremely (perhaps more than most) sympethic and frustrated with the monastic's very complicated situation. I feel like his many strong statements are coming from a sympathetic heart and a passion for change. This is a GOOD THING. Ultimately, every person is responsible for his or her own situation though, even the BOD can't be blamed for everything. They are following thier vision and if it is making you miserable, stagnating your spiritual life or making you feel trapped then you have no one (ultitmately) to blame but yourself. There is a danger of becoming part of the problem and inflicting suffering on others if you do nothing, however. dawnrays
username Registered User (6/22/03 3:59 pm) Reply	Re: Devananda I believe Devananda is harming people by drawing people into the cult. Leaving SRF is no less hard then it would be for an employee to leave Enron or Arthur Andersen when it is apparent that the corporation is doing wrong. The people that stayed on because of benefits ultimately helped bankrupt California and this harm will be felt by many many people for many many years. And many who stayed will be spending money on criminal attorneys and maybe some time in jail. If they are doing WRONG, you need to LEAVE -- not keep the machine in power because you don't think anyone will hire you, or some other rationalization. By staying the monks are harming people. Plain and Simple. SRF is a cult. It hurts people. It ruins people's lives. And the monks and nuns are the ones doing the controlling - the harm. They either need to leave OR they should be put in jail.
chuckle chela Registered User (6/22/03 9:17 pm) Reply	Reply to Borg and One Taste Borg, thanks for your detailed reply re: NVC. I suspect you're bang on: it's the feelings. What is very sad for me is that I suspect that the fear of NVC is actually a fear of facing and dealing with some pretty intense feelings that have been shoved down for many, many years by a number of people. I don't wish to appear melodramatic but I feel truly sorry for these people; and, my God, what is truly awful is the horrible abuse that has been the result of this suppression. You said something that I feel is so worthy of being repeated, I'm going to put it in shining lights. You wrote: But SRF never gets to the next stage because it calls for identifying feelings and needs, which is when true empathy happens and problems get solved almost like magic. Right on, Borg! It seems to me that you can't have empathy and love if you don't understand your own feelings. Someone who has been able to observe many of the events of the past few years from a ringside seat recently said to me: "It's almost like mathematics. A monastic's heart opens, for example, and they can't function in that climate anymore in the same old ways. All too often they end up leaving because when they try to change things, they hit brick walls and their hearts won't allow them to be hemmed in. If they don’t leave, they just try to survive and keep their hearts from being ripped apart.” One Taste, thanks for your interesting remarks on Devananda. I was interested to see he was still trying to work with something that appears to be like NVC in the workshop mentioned by soulcircle; I was also heartened by the further contact between Devananda and soulcircle (good on ya, soulcircle!). It’s interesting you should mention the nondualist idea. Of course, you know that it is one that Yogananda incorporated in his teachings, beginning with his first lecture in 1920. This is another reason why I think it is important not to cast the SRF leaders (or whomever) in the light of “the enemy.” It merely perpetuates duality. I’m not for a minute denying the serious problems, the egregious and awful things that have happened, and that some have acted very, very poorly. But I do think we have to at least try to avoid seeing others as enemies. I like what you wrote: “So, yes, I believe some compassion is in order for the guy. He ain’t perfect and is in a less than perfect situation. This makes him remarkably like, well, the rest of us, I guess. It’s easy to make black and white calls when it’s someone else besides ourselves.” As X Insider suggests: how do we think we might act in Devananda’s situation? It’s so easy for us, sipping our lattes, to put down those in the ashram without having any understanding of the pressures exerted by the social milieu, the vows, the discipline, the individual’s psyche and personal history.
Notice the Noticer Registered User (6/23/03 8:28 am) Reply	Re: Reply to Borg and One Taste username: "They either need to leave OR they should be put in jail." Whoo-EEE! a good belly laugh to start the day. Thank you for that. Chuckle, you say "I think it is important not to cast the SRF leaders (or whomever) in the light of “the enemy.” It merely perpetuates duality." I mostly agree, but with a twist. I think it maybe perpetuates our attachment to duality. It was so awful, working in corporations. I was a computer programmer, so I saw a lot of the inner workings at various levels. The first shocking thing that happens is to be in on an upper management meeting and see how blatantly anti-employee they are, with no apologies. But I came to feel that what was worse was the way the employees bought in to the mistreatment. If you say anything to point out to them how they're being used and abused, you become the troublemaker, the boat-rocker. They are desperate to believe the emperor has on the latest and best stylings, and this drove me crazy. But it became clear that, for whatever reasons, the two parties are engaged in their little dualistic dance. It's not that management wasn't the enemy; they most certainly were, and may as well be seen as such. It's more a matter of just not staying around for the dance. And maybe (or maybe not) caring so much that the other participants do remain. The breaking away, of course, can be monumentally hard because the culture strongly reinforces our dependance on that dance. Nevermind that the scriptures we've all known since childhood tell us not to be concerned with clothing and shelter (you know, that "sparrow" scripture). Who will support us in our retirement? It's such a huge, and hugely widespread, lie that's it's well-nigh impossible for most folks to break free of its iron grip.
ranger20 Registered User (6/23/03 9:56 am) Reply	Re: Reply to Borg and One Taste *Quote:* It was so awful, working in corporations. I was a computer programmer, so I saw a lot of the inner workings at various levels. The first shocking thing that happens is to be in on an upper management meeting and see how blatantly anti-employee they are, with no apologies. But I came to feel that what was worse was the way the employees bought in to the mistreatment. Interesting parallel, because from my foxhole, the kind of mistreatment described on this board is routine in most corporate settings. As someone else here noted, Dilbert is non-fiction. What is a source of dismay is to discover similar things in a church setting, where many of us sought refuge. But perhaps there's something else similar. I remember a conversation with a friend who had been a "lifer" at a Fortune 500 company. This was shortly before she took early retirement. She said, "Every time I put my trust in the company, I got burned, every time! And the next time, I'd do it again, because something in me wanted to believe in the 'home team'." In myself, I find an abiding impulse to give my loyalty and trust to "the tribe." Such an instinct could have a long term survival value in human history. What's distressing now is how convoluted our "tribal" connections are, and how few of them seem to be worthy of the kind of allegiance I think a lot of "ordinary" people long to give.
dawnrays Registered User (6/23/03 11:13 am) Reply	Re: Uncertainty of the Spiritual Path The spiritual path is sometimes uncertain. It has twists and turns and you have to be prepared to change, sometimes in midstream. It think it comes down to the point where the inner distress (hell?) becomes worse than the outer discomforts or perceived risks and you take that chance, that jump into the unknown, that shot in the dark. It's WORTH it. We all made that very important jump when we found our guru (despite our Christian upbringings) and I think we were all so proud of ourselves from breaking away from THAT dogma that we are finding it hard to believe we actually have to break away from YET ANOTHER ONE! The love of God, the enlightenment of the self and the feeling of love for HIS creation is so wonderful that it is worth any sacrifice, even leaving the ashram, even leaving srf or THE TRIBE as Ranger20 so aptly put it. Getting to that next level in your spiritual development is totally the choice of the individual, but it does often involve physical changes. Many devotees have made great material and familial sacrifices to live near temples and work for srf. No one has taken care of them. My husband and two children and I lived in a horrible neighborhood in an apartment California for 6 years to live near THE TEMPLE (it was all we could afford in SD). I was afraid to take my eyes off my own children for five minutes there and I ended up watching all the neighborhood kids. My husband was miserable at his command there and still I insisted that we stay FOR MASTER. I had left my family and house that we owned and the permanent duty my husband had there on the east coast to be NEAR MASTER. We were broke and in debt by the time we left. As I have said in another post, the biggest problem (I thought) about being in the Puget Sound area was my lack of contact with srf. And yet, when I tried to start a group here (we were driving an hour and a half to go to the Seattle Center), we were simply ingnored. They even questioned our "stability". It is totally individual, of course. Thier great sacrifice might be staying in (and being the squeaky wheel, the thorn in the side, etc). I think the fact that most of us know that it's messed up is good common ground though. We are all at least fortunate enough either to never to have gone in, left or even never put these people on pedestals in the first place. dawnrays Edited by: dawnrays at: 6/23/03 2:50 pm

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