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soulcircle
Registered User
(6/24/03 10:32 am)
Reply 		way cool
Guests, dawnrays, Ranger 20, One Taste and All,

Way cool post Ranger20, dawnrays must be touched too !!!

And One Taste, thanks for the direct email.

For those following this thread, One taste and I are in dialogue.

Keep the feelings coming. There is life and caring, questioning and sharing.

Please please please
keep it comig
more

cornflakes circle

dawnrays
Registered User
(6/24/03 2:25 pm)
Reply 		Re: One Taste, Ranger20 and Chuckle Chela
One Taste,

I just heard from soul circle and if he's not mad then neither am I. I understand that you have been having a very hard time. Would you appreciate it if someone exposed your personal life on a message board for all the world to see and without your permission? I hope you realize that there's no way that soul circle can do this to his friend. Yes and of course you can get very screwed up in 12 months, particularly if you are young and impressionable. Dreams die hard as you know.

Maybe it would help to talk about what's really bothering you rather than trying to dissect every sentence looking for flaws and truth. I think you are looking for a fight because you are angry and hurt and nobody in srf cares enough even to fight with you.

Very pro-srf people often come to this board to scold and scold. I see most people trying to look at both sides. Also, I see most of this as sharing and caring and not as attacks and neither should you.

I understand you are hurt and one day (one happy day) it really won't matter. Master doesn't need srf and neither do you.

Oh yes, and thank you Ranger20, I also thought it was more than a dream. I don't think I even really got it at the time, but it's becoming more and more clear.

And Chuckle Chela, that was a very good search for common ground response you gave. I always notice you bending over backwards (more than me) trying to acommodate other people's points of view, no matter how argumentative they are. One Taste, read some of Chuckle's posts and you will always see him doing this.

dawnrays

Edited by: dawnrays at: 6/24/03 2:50 pm
OneTaste
Registered User
(6/24/03 4:29 pm)
Reply 		Re: One Taste, Ranger20 and Chuckle Chela
dawnrays:
Quote:
Would you appreciate it if someone exposed your personal life on a message board for all the world to see and without your permission? I hope you realize that there's no way that Soul Circle can do this to his friend. Yes and of course you can get very screwed up in 12 months, particularly if you are young and impressionable. Dreams die hard as you know.

As I told Dave, my point was neither that he should expose his friend nor that I didn’t think she had gone through all that.


Quote:
Maybe it would help to talk about what's really bothering you rather than trying to dissect every sentence looking for flaws and truth. I think you are looking for a fight because you are angry and hurt and nobody in srf cares enough even to fight with you.

You extrapolate a lot of stuff out of this. I don’t know where you got these ideas, but my situation is hardly as you describe.

Quote:
Very pro-srf people often come to this board to scold and scold.


Here we go again. Where did you pick up the idea that I was very pro SRF? This is one of the things that drive me crazy about the splitting stuff I spoke of earlier. I can see a lot of rotten things happening in SRF, and they are being done by folks I care for. I never bought into the thing about them all being saints, although some very well may be. Bhimilananda comes to mind, and my time living at the farm was blessed by his presence every day.

Quote:
I see most people trying to look at both sides.


If so, you have quite a selective perception. There are some folks who try to see both sides, but lots who just want to bash away and assume all sorts of stuff. Kind of what you are doing with me. While there are many things that are plainly happening, things that I feel folks should be aware of, there is also a lot of unsubstantiated stuff that people just go on about as if they really knew. They don’t, but they don’t seem too bothered by the fact.

Quote:
Also, I see most of this as sharing and caring and not as attacks and neither should you.


Sharing yes, but caring only happens if you toe the party line. I may not be a pro-SRFer, but there have certainly been some who have stumbled by. They were treated with anything but care. One was a friend of mine (he found this board on his own. I didn't have the heart to tell him any of this stuff because he is brand new to the path) and he was attacked wholesale and run out on a rail. Others have met similar fates. It's just the mirror of so much of what folks here dislike about SRF, yet it happens just as much here.

This was my point in the last post. Like I said then, somehow it’s ok to say whatever anyone wants to say about the “bad ladies,” the bod and the bliss bunnies. Nothing is too harsh there, and it never gets questioned. Why, in that post by the very nice and sensitive soulcircle, he said far worse things about lots of folks I know at the Richmond Temple than I said about him. But they are just “sheep” and Dev is just blindly leading them to slaughter. Why is that ok and what I said so heinous?

Quote:
I understand you are hurt and one day (one happy day) it really won't matter. Master doesn't need srf and neither do you.


I can’t speak for Master, and I’m not all that keen on you speaking for me, either. You have no idea what I need or don’t need from SRF.

You know, you make a lot of assumptions about me based on little data. Maybe you should just ask me what’s going on instead of making these wild stabs, because your accuracy leaves a bit to be desired.

Quote:
And Chuckle Chela, that was a very good search for common ground response you gave. I always notice you bending over backwards (more than me) trying to acommodate other people's points of view, no matter how argumentative they are.


Yes, Chuckles, that was quite a feat you pulled off, trying to find common ground with me. We so rarely agree on anything!

Quote:
One Taste, read some of Chuckle's posts and you will always see him doing this.


Why I might just do that. He's an ace in my book, a gentleman and a scholar, so maybe I can learn something from him. It's nice to see we are in full agreement on this last point.

dawnrays
Registered User
(6/24/03 7:56 pm)
Reply 		Re: One Taste
One Taste,

Well sure, if you still like it you should keep going (to srf).

You're sort of sitting on the fence? I think that's where alot of people are. It doesn't sound like exactly a joyous experience for you, but I think most people do stay until they're pretty fed up and miserable.

For me it just kind of faded away. I don't know maybe I'm one of the lucky ones. I always thought the monks and nuns and the guys at hidden valley and the practically full time volunteers were so happy. They really seemed happy. I think a lot of people really put on a front and it eats away on the insides.

I can kind of feel for it even though I wasn't exactly there. My family was kind of dysfunctional, very strict German. We really did not show our emotions and all of us ended up acting out later on in life. Now to compensate, I really am into experiencing that and not repressing. I don't know how I ever stayed in srf so long, it really goes against my nature.

What is your situation by the way? It's hard for me to talk in all of these hypothetical situations. Are you married or single? How long have you been in srf? Were you a monk or an employee? It really helps believe it or not if you can give a little background stuff. It's really hard to do these message boards otherwise. One reason I like Dave is because he's pretty forthright. Alot of people aren't and like to be really mysterious. Yes I do think you are very confrontational, I don't know how anybody could avoid arguing with you. Do you want to argue? Some people do like it and after the boredom of a typical srf social, you do feel like screaming sometimes.

I think you should go to srf as long as it does something for you. I did get alot out of the meditations. It was the social repression that got to me and most people.

I think alot of people here just aren't used to talking. It's the opposite at srf, of course.

Also, it would really help me personally if you did not put everything I said in quotations. It really makes me feel picked apart.

Try to look at it as having a conversation.

dawnrays

Edited by: dawnrays at: 6/24/03 9:39 pm
OneTaste
Registered User
(6/25/03 1:17 pm)
Reply 		Re: One Taste

dawnrays, your request not to quote you all the time makes is really making it difficult for me to do this! This isn’t for any reason you might think re picking you apart, but because it goes against my grain re netiquette.

I’ve always thought it polite to provide both the person one is responding to and anyone who might be reading it with the previous text to which I am commenting on so they didn’t have to go back to the original to look it up. It also helps to stave off misunderstandings of the “but I never said that” variety. In other words, as the Brits say, it’s good form.

But, given your feelings, for this one to you, I will drop the quotes. But I’ll go back to it in any other posts because it’s a habit and, given the reasons I state, one I agree with in principle. It just makes it easier for me and anyone reading my posts.

This little dialogue you and I are having is a perfect example of my point. As I often say, I don’t mind being wrong, but I hate being misunderstood. And yet, here I find myself being painted repeatedly by you as pro-SRF, or someone who is coming here to defend SRF. Look at the first line of your last post. (I’m not quoting it!)

As I asked before, where in God’s name did you get this idea?! Can you quote anything I said to back it up? I don’t think so, but it keeps working its way into all of your posts re me.

You ask me if I want to argue. Well, it depends on what you mean. Since you see me as being confrontational, you may have gotten the impression that I just like to argue for the sake of arguing, maybe out of boredom.

Uh, no. Not in the least. I do enjoy debate, there’s no question there, and I will confront a stance I believe is wrong, but I would sicken myself severly if my motive was to just stir up a hornet’s nest. I have seen those who like to do this, both here and elsewhere on discussion boards. They are called trolls and I am not of the breed. There’s scads of posts here I wouldn’t think of touching because they contain nothing pertinent to what I think are the important issues in this SRF situation. Others may think they do and let them have their way with them.

I am certainly guilty of digging into the text I am responding to and analyzing what is contained and implied by it. This comes from training and temperament. I’m no fan of careless writing via loose interpretation and faulty logic, nor of emotions clouding issues or folks putting words in other people’s mouths. These things lead to a host of misunderstandings and all sorts of troubles and I will point those out as I perceive them and hope and invite others to do the same with anything I add to our little party here.

Admittedly, I have something of a bulldog personality if I believe in something. But only so far, which is right up to the point where my stance is shown to be wrong. Then, I will re-evaluate and recalibrate. Believe me, with this whole SRF thing, I’ve had lots of practice. I believe in flexibility. If I were as bad as you perhaps think I am, instead of seeking to ameliorate our misunderstanding here, I’d come in, quoting your stuff just because you asked me not to, and tear it apart. Just for fun. But I see no point in it. That’s what trolls do, and whatever else I am, I’m not a troll.

As for my situation re SRF, it’s pretty garden variety. And in the SRF garden, think of me as a weed.

I find it interesting that I have been asked by soulcircle in public and by someone else via email to comment on Raja Begum’s post in Core Issues, How the SRF experience holds our thinking hostage. I remember Raja’s posts sticking out when I first started lurking here and really wish he was still around. That said, I didn’t think he did a good job on this particular one beyond painting a cute caricature of a devotee. Kind of like a caricature of a drunken Irishman, its nice for a laugh, not so good for the argument. I am less than inclined to do an autospsy on it since he’s no longer around, but I said I was a weed because none of that stuff applies to me re how I lived while being a card-carrying member of the tribe.

I came onboard in 81, but have never been a monk or an employee. I did live at HV for four months in 82 and again in 02. I was a regular at the Richmond Temple from 89 to 99, which is where I met my crazy friend soulcircle. (They really broke the mold when they made you, Dave. Good thing, eh?:rollin )

Although there were always things I didn’t like about SRF, like the regimentation, (I’m disinclined to move all the way to fascistic, ala Raja’s post) the conservative, psuedo-Catholic Church stuff, and the repressive nature of it all, I had no idea of the extent of the problems going on.

While I didn’t like all that, it wasn’t that big of a deal because none of that junk is going to have much chance of sticking with me, given my weird/weed nature. (I sat where I wanted to at the temple, thought the ropes were stupid and ducked under them every week. Not to rebel, but just to sit where I was comfortable. And no usher ever gave me a hard time about it, nor did I do so to anyone else when I was an usher.)

But when I found the Walrus, everything changed and immediately. Not just because of the stuff here, but because it lined up with what I was about to experience upclose and personally at HV. It wasn’t a pretty picture and I haven’t been able to see SRF or Yogananda in the same way since. This has been both traumatic and liberating at the same time. But, no, as you say, it hasn’t been fun. How could it be? And, btw, although I had already been here, Dharmananda himself directed me here while I was working on a project for the VLA Newsletter.)

Still, for all the wrongs of SRF, and they are legion, I do not for a second think that SRF is Evil Incarnate or wholly to blame in all this. I know others who think this is the case, and there you will find me arguing or being confrontational, or however you want to characterize it. I am not a perfect post-modern victim. If someone else wants to argue for being such, fine. Tis a shabby prize.

And, as I’ve said to you before, given the nature of the nastiness of a lot of what goes on in SRF, if I perceive the same going on here, the splitting into us and them and the close-mindedness, I will point it out. We have all been injured in this dance, the devotees and the monastics. If some want to see the BOD as “bad ladies,” that is their right. To act in the same way while doing so, that is their wrong. My guru taught me that, as did mom. You may feel differently, but mom taught me that’s cool, too.

Not a bliss bunny, nor a blast bunny, but a balance bunny. Whether I succeed in such is to be seen, but that’s where I’m coming from. Just like Chuckle Chela, but not nearly as genteel.

Edited by: OneTaste at: 6/25/03 1:29 pm
dawnrays
Registered User
(6/25/03 3:12 pm)
Reply 		Re: One Taste
Actually I wasn't referring to you when I said that (pro-srf).

Just a type of person. I can see you're not totally pro-srf.

As I have said I think you are very intelligent. I think it's a shame that such intelligence as your's, true enuf's, raja's, chuckle's, ks's, Notice's, Ranger's, Babagee's, 2020's, stermajo's and so many, many more (not to mention such a grand poetic heart as dave's) are going to waste. They don't listen. It's thier loss. It's such a shame. Householders not giving lectures. It could be so relevant. We could actually help people instead of damaging them. I've always loved the devotees. I know deep down they are good, the monastics too. It's heart breaking. It's heart breaking what has happened. Can't you feel that Master feels it? Don't you think it's breaking His heart?

For years I wrote to MC. I wrote and wrote. My husband wrote. We begged and begged them to let us have our support groups and meetings at the temple for the members after the murder-suicide at SD temple. We weren't even allowed to announce them. I pleaded with them just to let us have a bulliten board there so members could connect.

There's no community in srf. Like it or not, this is it. Theirs is the ashram and everything else is frowned upon. It's offal.

As I said, I think you should go. Maybe you are the cog in the wheel. I totally support your efforts.

I only can speak for myself. This is a message board remember. It's not the type of thing where you can hold one poster responsible for another. The one thing we have in common is where we are with srf. Unfortunately, that's confused and negative right now. It's not for me to question what someone else has experienced as a nun, monk or employee. I know it's helpful for them to talk it out.

I know it's very damaging and hurtful when people are trying to heal and talk and then some very niave person on thier own personal crusade to save srf comes on and scolds. I myself no longer see this as a safe place to talk after only two months. I probably won't be posting anymore after I've wound this up with you. It's stressing me out and I need to move on. Most people do get past this and move on. It's sort of a stopping ground to make sure that you are are not insane I guess and that everything was not all of your fault.

dawnrays

Edited by: dawnrays at: 6/25/03 11:10 pm
OneTaste
Registered User
(6/25/03 4:09 pm)
Reply 		Re: One Taste
Go if you must, and stay if you'd like. Either way go with God and stay with God. I support you as well.

Ringbearer7
Registered User
(6/25/03 4:40 pm)
Reply 		To One Taste
Hi One Taste,

I have enjoyed your postings immensely. In my opinion, you are making good progress toward your "balance bunny" ideal. I think there is a common trait among SRF/ex-SRF members in that we tend to be very extreme in our thinking. Many here once believed that Daya Mata was a fully-liberated saint. Those same people now say that Faye is a Nazi and a devourer of souls. The truth of the matter likely lies somewhere in between these two extremes but to make this point is threatening to many here, who although having left SRF behind, still cling to the same modes of thinking that made us starry-eyed SRF believers in the first place.

By the way, you mentioned that Brother Dharmananda directed you to the Walrus website. This is very interesting. May I ask why? I have fond memories of Brother Dharmananda - he was always very kind and helpful to me.

Keep up the great posts!

OneTaste
Registered User
(6/25/03 6:09 pm)
Reply 		Re: To One Taste
Quote:
I have enjoyed your postings immensely. In my opinion, you are making good progress toward your "balance bunny" ideal.


Thanks, Ring-bearer. Yes, I hope to make progress, but, like your namesake, it’s often an arduous journey, eh? (btw, did you ever notice that Sam is a wonderful modern treatment of Hanuman as the loyal servant? In lots of ways, he’s my favorite in the trilogy.)

Quote:
I think there is a common trait among SRF/ex-SRF members in that we tend to be very extreme in our thinking.

Now where would you get an idea like that?! I can’t say I’ve seen much evidence of it. :rollin

Quote:
Many here once believed that Daya Mata was a fully-liberated saint. Those same people now say that Faye is a Nazi and a devourer of souls. The truth of the matter likely lies somewhere in between these two extremes but to make this point is threatening to many here, who although having left SRF behind, still cling to the same modes of thinking that made us starry-eyed SRF believers in the first place.

I score this a direct hit. It’s the classic syndrome of the disillusioned, and one I think applies to a lot of what goes on around here. We’ve had that starry-eyedness slapped out of us wholesale, wouldn’t you say? For some, Ma’s taken on, if not the cast of Sauron, at least Saruman. As for me, that’s too extreme, but I have to admit that I don’t see her in at all the same light that I used to. This has forced me to not only re-evaluate her, but me and my reasons for having my earlier thoughts and feelings in the first place. Also, what does it mean to be enlightened, or realized, or a saint? While I can’t say I’ve always enjoyed the journey, I can say that I have learned more in the last 18 months or so on these and connected matters than would probably be wise to admit.

This is why I keep being obnoxious (to some, at least) on the score of “we ain’t just victims--we played an active role in it all.” The blame game is not one I'm interested in.

Why did we set ourselves up for this fall? What were we looking for in the first place? The easy answer would be God, but there’s so much more to it than that.

Were we looking for a club? A surrogate family? Allegience to something that, if we weren’t entirely up to its standards as far as achievement, at least we were heading in the right direction? It’s kind of like, yeah, I know I’m a mess, but you should see my friends. I know some very well-connected people.

It's kind of like the moon. It’s a beautiful orb, but it takes its glory from the sun. Of itself it’s just a pock-marked rock going around in circles. Its illumination is derived solely from an “other.”

To find that the “other” is less than perfect, less than we had thought all these years, (while often condescendingly tsk-tsking those poor deluded folk in other camps or—shudder—no camp at all) and then to find that we had been as had as anyone in the tsk-tsk pile, well, it’s a crushing blow to the ego. If this is screwed up, now what do I believe in? Hence the backlash.

I understand the backlash, but as ever, balance is key. As screwed up as so much of SRF is, it isn’t wholly screwed up. Golden fruit from a blackened tree, as I like to think of it. Or, to switch golden metaphors, it’s like mining gold: you have to move a ton of dirt to get an ounce of gold, but you focus on the gold, not the dirt.

This intensification of discrimination, instead of swallowing things wholesale, is the prize in all this for me.

Quote:
By the way, you mentioned that Brother Dharmananda directed you to the Walrus website. This is very interesting. May I ask why? I have fond memories of Brother Dharmananda - he was always very kind and helpful to me.

Ah, it was just a passing thing. I was working with him on the HV piece in the newsletter and somehow it came up that some guy was going off on the farm online. (It’s the link in the big HV is horrible and worse than you know thread in the HV section here.) He said I’d have to look it up because he didn’t know anything about the net, but there was a whole website trashing SRF. Sorry to be so anti-climatic.

chuckle chela
Registered User
(6/25/03 8:41 pm)
Reply 		Reply to dawnrays
Dawnrays, I understand how you might be finding the Walrus a bit (or more than a bit) stressful. It would be my hope that it would be as minimally stressful for anyone coming to the board. Given the issues, it's likely that when one first encounters the Walrus it could be a bit rough.

I think you are wise in thinking about leaving if you are finding it stressful. I would hope that it wouldn't be so for you. As well, I think we all need to be mindful that it helps if we are understanding, respectful, and careful with each other, regardless of whether we agree or not.

I think you've added some wonderful thoughts and feelings to the discussions; I'd love to see you stick around, if you feel up to it. I think there have been some good discussions recently and any further insights and experiences of yours would be appreciated by me.

Under the Core Issues Section, I've started a new thread with the title "Communication Breakdown" and I have a few questions for you about the suicide at SD and how the monastics responded to you (and anyone else please feel free to participate in that discussion).

etzchaim
Registered User
(6/26/03 7:06 am)
Reply 		very simple question
I'm trying to follow this and I have no idea what 'HV' is (I've dubbed it "Holy Vendetta"). I keep seeing it mentioned...

OneTaste
Registered User
(6/26/03 7:37 am)
Reply 		Re: very simple question
Sorry, etz. My bad. Hidden Valley (HV) is a retreat unofficially officially run by SRF. (Yeah, it's kinda complicated, but not important) down near San Diego. Guys can also live there for a year or two if approved, and lots of would-be monks go there to get a taste of the life while going through the interminable acceptance process. All in all, it's a great place and as far down the food chain as you can get in SRF land. Down, yes, but not off the food chain.

stermejo
Registered User
(6/28/03 9:29 am)
Reply 		Re: very simple question
Dear One,

You HATE being misunderstood! Boy, do I know how you feel. I've been trying to figure out for years WHY I can say, explain, or tell anyone, young or old, something only to later question myself as to whether I was speaking in some other language than English.

Maybe I just fell into a trap and never cleaned up my act. Nowadys, I just conent myslef with a jab here or there and keep my nose to the grindstone.

Being misunderstood sucks. Don't let it happen to you:-)

dawnrays
Registered User
(6/28/03 11:07 am)
Reply 		Re: very simple question
Yes, think how Master must feel, and he's not even around to defend himself. I think in years to come we will have Walrus largely to thank that he hasn't been edited out of existance.

dawnrays

soulcircle
Registered User
(6/28/03 12:23 pm)
Reply 		i like
dawnrays and stermejo,

stermejo i like seeing you putting yourself in dawnrays shoes for a mile, and the empathy you display

dawnrays i like the deep appreciation you show for SRF Walrus and that you are able to walk in PY's sandals for a mile

what good vibes circle out of ripples
ripples of a civil humanity
circle out ripples
and stermejo in that post
you express the priceless treasure of kindness

how can dawnrays and the rest of us respond otherwise?

than each in our own way
saying
stermejo we love you

circle of dawnrays and stermejo's civility rippling out

Yogananda's inspiration rippling out to the world
again and again

PY is a name for the truest nature inside ourselves
nothing stunning beautiful about him

is not first in us, and swiftly resonates with him

your circle of civility is cherished

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