June 2003 - www.ezboard.com

SRF Walrus

Mt. Washington, Ca

Open discussions about SRF

SRF Walrus > Layoffs - The downsizing of SRF has begun > June 2003
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OneTaste Registered User (6/23/03 11:58 am) Reply	Re: Devananda username: *Quote:* Leaving SRF is no less hard then it would be for an employee to leave Enron or Arthur Andersen when it is apparent that the corporation is doing wrong. Hmm. I don’t know anything about your experience, so I don’t know whether you were in the order or not. But you seem a bit out of order here. The comparison between employees in a company and monastics doesn’t hold together very well. Do you think there were any Enron employees who gave their heart and soul to the company with full intention of dedicating their entire lives to serving it? Not just their working hours, but all their hours, not just doing their jobs, but living their lives completely within the parameters of the org. Even the most devoteded (Kenneth) Lay person was just that, a lay person—able to escape the environment every day at the end of work. Bringing one’s work home can be problematic, but it’s not the same as having work and home being the same place on a 24/7/365 basis with no opportunity for escape beyond breaking one’s vows and fleeing permanently. The levels of commitment are just not comparable. To say it is just as easy to leave one’s monastic vocation as it is a job is facile at best. *Quote:* If they are doing WRONG, you need to LEAVE -- not keep the machine in power because you don't think anyone will hire you, or some other rationalization. It would be interesting to hear from you where you think they should go. With the absolutist stance you take here, there certainly isn’t anywhere else to go. On this plane, everybody everywhere is doing wrong on some level. That was the ticket to getting on, remember? *Quote:* By staying the monks are harming people. Plain and Simple. SRF is a cult. It hurts people. It ruins people's lives. And the monks and nuns are the ones doing the controlling - the harm. They either need to leave OR they should be put in jail. Personal responsibility, get thee behind me! What a blunt blade you swing here. What in God’s name should they be put in jail for? Or, rather, how is it possible that anyone anywhere will be able to stay out of jail, given the endemic nature of their purported crimes in the rest of society? As others have noted, this stuff not only goes on everywhere in org life, but often in ways far worse. If SRF were Enron or something similar, their crimes wouldn’t even be on the radar. I’m certainly not excusing what goes on in SRF; I was hammered by it up close and personal to a degree I’d not wish on anyone. But to say that those responsible for such treatment should be jailed, or should summarily leave what they’ve devoted their lives to, as opposed to seeking to fix what is wrong seems needlessly harsh and less than thought through. All in all, as bad as things are, one of the few ways I can think of them being far, far worse is to have someone with the mindset you display being in charge. (“display” being the operative word here. I’m hoping you were just having a bad hair up your butt day.) I hope you won't perceive me as doing WRONG in pointing out my disagreement with your stance. I'd hate to see you have to LEAVE, given your pov as to the way things ought to operate. As for being put in jail, no worries there. The bars on your prison seem secure enough as it is. But I'm all for a jailbreak, if there's any way I can help.
soulcircle Registered User (6/23/03 12:18 pm) Reply	Criminal .. Right before our eyes Guest, OneTaste, username and All, The harm they did to one nun in one year was criminal. Apparently the abuse of power [the base abuse] is horrific in at least this case. Am willing to be more specific, one on one in direct emails. I witnessed first hand the before and after. A serene, deeply helpful and caring, gentle person destroyed. In 12 months. One of the absolutely most caring, gentle and serene... robbed of vibrant life in her twenties. Right before me own eyes. username I support your feelings and thoughts!!
OneTaste Registered User (6/23/03 1:29 pm) Reply	Re: Reply to Borg and One Taste Chuckle Chela: *Quote:* One Taste, thanks for your interesting remarks on Devananda. I was interested to see he was still trying to work with something that appears to be like NVC in the workshop mentioned by soulcircle Ah, I was intrigued by soulcircle’s tale. I’m only sorry that he left without waiting to see how it would have developed. It seemed like one of the few instances where direct communication had the possibility of flowering in a “satsang” environment. As for Dev, I think it is good that he is attempting such workshops. I’m curious as to what they are like and would like to see one in action. I know that he wants to be seen as the “communicator,” and hope he gets there one day. Sadly, from my experience, he’s got a ways to go. He told me once that he often has difficulty when it comes to listening. I think I read somewhere that that is an important ingredient in the process. More power to him. *Quote:* It’s interesting you should mention the nondualist idea. Of course, you know that it is one that Yogananda incorporated in his teachings, beginning with his first lecture in 1920. I’d like to hear more on this. While I do recognize its whispers here and there through the teachings, it certainly doesn’t seem to be a main theme, what with all the dualist stuff dripping from them, page after page. I think its important to realize the culture he came to (and from) at the time. Reading his stuff now, I find myself having to do an awful lot of translating of the “times” in order to grab the timeless. At any rate, regardless of where he was coming from, SRF surely does not emphasize the nondual. They push the one side at the expense of the other, their incessant calls for balance notwithstanding. Again, much of this appears to me to be cultural. Timeless is as timeless does, but time marches on and upgrades are always in order on that score. The inability to see this, on the part of the devotees and the leaders of the org seems to me to be at the heart of many of the difficulties we are up to our elbows in, vis-à-vis Vishwananda’s assertions that this is an old teaching and the brass knows what it’s doing. Timeless is not the same as “really, really old.” The timeless elements of the teachings are just that. The other stuff will evolve or die out. Nothing is immune from this except that which is timeless. *Quote:* This is another reason why I think it is important not to cast the SRF leaders (or whomever) in the light of “the enemy.” It merely perpetuates duality. What you said. It always reminds me of Gandhi’s famous line in response to someone asking him if he hated the British: “I love the British; I just hate what the do.” *Quote:* I’m not for a minute denying the serious problems, the egregious and awful things that have happened, and that some have acted very, very poorly. But I do think we have to at least try to avoid seeing others as enemies. Assuredly. I have seen the enemy and he is me. *Quote:* As X Insider suggests: how do we think we might act in Devananda’s situation? It’s so easy for us, sipping our lattes, to put down those in the ashram without having any understanding of the pressures exerted by the social milieu, the vows, the discipline, the individual’s psyche and personal history. I take umbrage at your latte remark, CC. I am way too above such and it is against my practice. (A double mocha is more like it. Why take the bullock cart route when an airplane is available? But I quibble.) Those factors you name are inseparable from our experience, regardless of who we are or where. Walking a mile in my moccasins and all that. Personally, I don’t know why Dev stays. But I am not going to presume that I know that he should leave or why he doesn’t. To say that he should based on my opinions of the situation is more presumptuous than I am willing to be. As you said, this is not to excuse the failings of the bod and the org in general. This situation breaks my heart and the fallout continues to rumble through my experience long after the initial shock of getting slapped recedes into the fog of fading memory. Should I just walk away? Perhaps. But at best it is going to be with a pronounced limp. Everything connected with SRF, including Master, just isn’t the same anymore. It would be easy to just blame SRF for all of this, and in my less than stellar moments, I have taken some turns at doing so. But no matter how much I do so, I keep coming back to me and my part in it. What am I supposed to do about that? Denying it is an option, but as it walks everywhere with me, including away, something tells me that there are deeper issues involved than staying or going. I’d like to say that part of me wants to stay and fight the good fight. But I don’t really want to fight; I just want to talk to them. A little dialogue could go a long way. But what way that is is riddled with potholes and so the process gets stuck in the mud of the status quo. In the meantime, I just go along rolling into one cul-de-sac after another, trying to figure it all out.
OneTaste Registered User (6/23/03 1:59 pm) Reply	Re: Criminal .. Right before our eyes soulcircle: *Quote:* The harm they did to one nun in one year was criminal. Apparently the abuse of power [the base abuse] is horrific in at least this case. Am willing to be more specific, one on one in direct emails. I sent you an invite to your walrus inbox to pass along details privately if you wish. Until then, I think it is a good idea to clarify whether you are using criminal in the literal or figurative sense. Do you mean prosecutable or just really bad behavior ala temper-tantrums and all the other unsavory stuff folks note here that goes on in the org? *Quote:* I witnessed first hand the before and after. A serene, deeply helpful and caring, gentle person destroyed. In 12 months. One of the absolutely most caring, gentle and serene... robbed of vibrant life in her twenties. Right before me own eyes. Here’s my point. Are you implying that SRF killed her? I doubt it. What do you mean by robbed of vibrant life? And hell, given the horrific nature of what you say happened right before your eyes, what did you do about it? Surely, you did something. Because to be so negligent as to just stand by in the face of such abuse, why that would be, uh, criminal.
dawnrays Registered User (6/23/03 2:06 pm) Reply	They don't want to talk... One Taste, I know it's hard and you may not want to hear this, but.. They don't want to talk to you. If it makes you feel any better, they don't want to talk to me either. Guess what? They don't want to talk to my husband or anybody I know... So here we are. I think you are very intelligent and way too good and beyond that organization. YOU WILL find your way, I just know it. With regards to username, he's really not that off the mark as far as jail. If they were held to the same standards as a corporation, they might be looking at just that. As it is, cults aren't illegal (freedom of religeon). Alot of this money stuff (aside from the mental and emotional stuff) is pretty suspicious and under the table. Please read BabaGEE's post* today, it's pretty typical. They did they same thing to the SD temple (confiscated all of our donations we were saving for something to do specifically at our temple). That post is RE: 2003 - Money Makes the World Go Round by BabaGEE. dawnrays Edited by: dawnrays at: 6/23/03 2:30 pm
soulcircle Registered User (6/23/03 2:56 pm) Reply	One Taste....the workshops go nowhere Devananda is a one-way broadcast.....there is no receiving And what he does tell is pablum.....he will never tell of the shut down of the spiritual life committees, as they narrowed down srf's problems to environment, fear etc. My departure was due to the knowledge that the worst listener was giving the workshop, and that many in that room had been listening since before '80 when my wife and I arrived. Apparently bliss sheep need to brush up on the baa'ing on their way to be fleeced/slaughtered. Devananda has tasted a bit of process, but he is blind leading blind, especially as he [and Atmananda that night] like to come across as experts! And the bliss sheep bleat it right up! soulcircle
OneTaste Registered User (6/23/03 3:02 pm) Reply	Re: They don't want to talk... dawnrays: *Quote:* I know it's hard and I know you may not want to hear this, but.. They don't want to talk to you. If it makes you feel any better, they don't want to talk to me either. Guess what? They don't want to talk to my husband or anybody I know... Don’t worry, dawnrays, it isn’t exactly a secret. You are right; they don’t want to talk to anyone. Inside the pearly gates of 3880 or out. Taking that as a given, I think it’s a matter of seeing why this is the case. Rightly and wrongly, I think it stems from the corner they have painted themselves into. Unlike some here, I’m not one for lurid overstatement, but the very survival of the org is at stake. And, much as we would wish it otherwise, an org’s first order of business is survival. It’s homeostasis and it’s built into all orgs on all levels; factory installed equipment. This applies to the monastics who stay in the face of all the trouble as well. Survival will rule out, and if a monastic (for whatever reasons) deems it better to stay than go at present, he or she will do so. You hit it on the head in another post when you said: *Quote:* It think it comes down to the point where the inner distress (hell?) becomes worse than the outer discomforts or perceived risks and you take that chance, that jump into the unknown, that shot in the dark. Until that point is reached (and no one besides the person him or herself can make that call), it is better to stay with the devil one knows than court the devil one doesn’t. As far as the org as a whole, they are in a jam. Regardless of why or who’s fault it is, they are in a no-win situation. You seem to have lots of temple experience. Don’t you know lots of devotees who would be stricken to find out the nature and depth of the problems going on? Lots who would deny such in the face of whatever evidence presented? A quick trip over to the bliss bunny board will show this in a trice. My favorite example of such is a thread I saw there a few days ago. Someone posted a picture of a dying child in Africa with a vulture waiting a few feet away. Amidst the horror and outcry, someone thought they had hit on the best course of action: “also I think giving/service to SRF serves all as it helps raise the consciousness of the whole planet. Master said: "Life should be chiefly service..." You see? Why get your hands dirty in an unfathomable situation when a donation and a fellowship tea at a temple will do it for you? Can you imagine these smiley-encrusted folks being able to accept that things are out of control on the hill? Can you imagine SRF copping to such when the overwhelming majority of the devotee base is made up of such folk? Again, skip over how it got there (image uber alles) and think about how they could extricate themselves NOW. Do you see a way? I sure as hell don’t. *Quote:* So here we are. I think you are very intelligent and way too good and beyond that organization. YOU WILL find your way, I just know it. Thank you for your kind words, but don’t give me too much credit. Way too good has certainly not been in my grasp to this point. The only thing I can say is that I’m not a bliss bunny, but I don’t want to become merely a blast bunny, either. I’m striving for balance bunny and the operative word is striving. *Quote:* Alot of this money stuff (aside from the mental and emotional stuff) is pretty suspicious and under the table. Please read BabaGees post today, it's pretty typical. They did they same thing to the SD temple (confiscated all of our donations we were saving for something to do specifically at our temple). I did read it, and my head was spinning. As egregious as this confiscation is, and boy, is it, I can’t help asking how it could happen. I assuredly need more details, because I can’t imagine the devotees saying, “uh, ok, here ya go.” If so, this only supports my stance that the devotees who would do so are in no way prepared to face the truth of the org as currently constituted. Thus, one way or another, SRF is in an unwinnable situation.
soulcircle Registered User (6/23/03 3:03 pm) Reply	not dead physically somehow the former nun [she lasted 12 months] avoids suicide just srf crippled to the max i am talking of one of the world's beautiful youth roses full of serene maturity [by the way deeply versed in office skills at a young age] coming out in 12months as a shell, almost like a Nam vet deep into herione or alcohol. Tell me I am not sobbing now, and will ever be able to speak of this again...... Hi I am Dave srf a holic Edited by: soulcircle at: 6/23/03 3:06 pm
Notice the Noticer Registered User (6/23/03 3:21 pm) Reply	Re: Chakra No. Three and the Tribe Ranger, I found YOUR comment interesting: "In myself, I find an abiding impulse to give my loyalty and trust to "the tribe." Such an instinct could have a long term survival value in human history. What's distressing now is how convoluted our "tribal" connections are, and how few of them seem to be worthy of the kind of allegiance I think a lot of "ordinary" people long to give." [could someone please tell me how you get that "quote" formatting? When I press the "quoted" button to the left it just creates a black line down the left side of the passage...] I keep running into teachings that say humanity at this point is run by the lowest three chakras: Need for security, desire for sex, and compulsion to establish our place within the tribe (power). Interesting points are: 1) Abidance in the heart or higher, when widespread, will be the mark of a massive upliftment having taken place. 2) There's an energy blockage called the Knot of Vishnu between the solar plexus, #3, and the heart, #4. I know I often feel a tightness right there around the diaphragm. The knot results from a deep collective/archetypal belief in betrayal. We believe we're separate from God, and one of the main explanations for this is betrayal. Either he betrayed our trust, or we his (and were therefore abandoned or rejected, cast out from the garden.) In more realistic terms, we turn our back on, or betray, our own True Nature by denying that it's here, and looking elsewhere for it. 3) Since it's apparently time nowadays for the shift in #1 (to the heart) to happen, betrayal is a HUGE issue. This is because betrayal has to be faced in order to realize it's a phantom issue, thus untying Vishnu's knot. It definitely EXISTS, in conventional reality: We trusted SRF and they turned out to be _________! (fill in the blank -- there are MANY correct responses!) But the core betrayal is an illusion, because we actually aren't, and never were, separate. 4) Seemingly on our own now, outside the garden, the lower-chakra issues become paramount and distorted. When we knew Everything as Love, things were fine, but now we have to be extra concerned about survival: of the body, of the species, and in the face of power-wielders. 5) So I've been mulling over the ways SRF's actions represent a distortion of these first three chakra issues. It's pretty darn clear! Here are a VERY few of the countless ways: First chakra: security. We have god-realized folks running the organization. We must place our faith in their guidance. Association with other religious teachings might confuse us (make us insecure). Second chakra: sex. Here, the distortion results from too much DE-emphasis, a result of denial and fear of sex. I don't care if anyone wants to be celibate or not. It's just that the repression is so extreme as to be downright nutty. Don't we all know that various married people were/are enlightened? And yet so many of us current or ex-SRF'ers feel, or did at one time, that to have any chance at all we really really really do neeeeeeeed to avoid sex as much as possible. Third chakra: power/position in the tribe. They've got the power, we need to belong and be loyal to the tribe. Let's prove our power by suing A@#$% back to the stone age. Open monastics' mail. Disallow anything that even resembles democratic process. This all harks back to something I think I posted before, postulating that SRF as an institution represents the denser energies that are on their way out with the changing of the astrological ages or yugas or whatever. Their convoluted manifestation of the natural urges toward safety, procreation, and belonging shock us into realizing we've been betrayed in a big way. Consciously experiencing that will apparently help the whole trust/betrayal polarity begin to loosen, simply by shining the light of consciousness on it (denial keeps something in the dark and therefore powerful because we then fear it). The knot of Vishnu will no longer be an effective blockage keeping our energy from consistently rising to the heart and higher. Edited by: Notice the Noticer at: 6/23/03 3:33 pm
soulcircle Registered User (6/23/03 3:27 pm) Reply	[quote] space the copy and paste quote [/quote] i copy the quote, then in my new post i type the word quote within [ ] followed by a space ... paste the copied quote ... followed by a space then type "/quote" without the ".." within [ ] Edited by: soulcircle at: 6/23/03 3:31 pm
Notice the Noticer Registered User (6/23/03 3:39 pm) Reply	Re: [quote] space the copy and paste quote [/quote] *Quote:* thanks! Edited by: Notice the Noticer at: 6/23/03 3:40 pm
dawnrays Registered User (6/23/03 4:00 pm) Reply	Re: They don't want to talk... One Taste, I don't know what to do. I wish I knew what to do. I know Master guides us and despite the problems I had there, I'm glad I did land in San Diego to see real thing (as in the temple scene) for myself. When I came to Puget Sound and it all started slipping away, I felt free and relieved. I had my husband and my family, after all. We bought a house in a decent and affordable neighborhood. Our lifestyle improved overall. Even our problems with trying to start a group here didn't suprise me too much. Their (MC's) attitude was just par for the course and I've grown so used to it. I actually only found Walrus about 2 months ago when I had already decided to leave (srf). I tried Ananda but it was just too far too get involved (in Seattle) although they were very friendly and nice. I even went to a Uniterian Church a few times, but we found them a little too intellectual for our tastes (although again, very nice, very friendly). Somewhere along with all this happening was my thought "it's really not my problem, these people always gave me the cool breeze anyway." And if you think that being on the fringe is the answer, well, that hurt's too. It hurts not to be taken seriously. No, it is not the answer. Well anyway, about the time I was doing the Uniterian thing (they have great folk dances!), I had a very strange dream. Master came in, looking sort of sad and He said, "You're angry, you know that!" I didn't understand so I just said "I trust you." He said "That's not what I'm talking about." Then instantly I found myself in another dream where I was water skiing away, very happy, very free. When I looked behind me, I saw a group of people standing in front of a white building (I think with pillars) with hand-cuffs on and looking angry and confused. I know I need to help, but I don't know how. Telling the truth is a good start though. Everything falls into place if you can just stand in your own truth! dawnrays Edited by: dawnrays at: 6/23/03 4:18 pm
OneTaste Registered User (6/23/03 4:40 pm) Reply	Re: One Taste....the workshops go nowhere *Quote:* Devananda is a one-way broadcast.....there is no receiving Perhaps, but when he did field your statement, what receiving did you do? You split, secure in your having taken your rebel stance. Is that all you wanted? *Quote:* And what he does tell is pablum.....he will never tell of the shut down of the spiritual life committees, as they narrowed down srf's problems to environment, fear etc. Again, perhaps. Which begs the question as to what you were doing there in the first place and why you opened your mouth long enough to toss a verbal hand-grenade, but kept your ears closed and ran. Was your mind as closed as your ears, or was something else going on? *Quote:* My departure was due to the knowledge that the worst listener was giving the workshop, and that many in that room had been listening since before '80 when my wife and I arrived. Again, if this is so, what were you doing there in the first place? This doesn’t smell right.
OneTaste Registered User (6/23/03 4:48 pm) Reply	Re: not dead physically *Quote:* somehow the former nun [she lasted 12 months] avoids suicide just srf crippled to the max All in one year? Wow. Beyond the fact that you are painting them as complete ogres, is there anything else going on here? *Quote:* i am talking of one of the world's beautiful youth roses full of serene maturity [by the way deeply versed in office skills at a young age] coming out in 12months as a shell, almost like a Nam vet deep into herione or alcohol. One of the world’s “beautiful youth roses full of serene maturity” coming out a shell. In one year. What part did she play in this? Any? Are you saying that just mauled her completely for no other reason than she was "one of the world's beautiful youth roses full of serene maturity"? This one doesn't smell right either. *Quote:* Tell me I am not sobbing now, and will ever be able to speak of this again...... So, another one of these “I can’t give the details in public, just the horrible implications so that everyone can see how evil those people are” posts? Having lobbed in enough innuendo to raze a villiage, you’re so busted up about it that you can never go into it again? Another hit and run? This is sheer manipulation, Dave. Gotta hand it to the evil ones—they trained us well. *Quote:* Hi I am Dave srf a holic Apparently so. And with this post, can we assume you’ve hit bottom? Those 12-steppers insist on it before you can begin recovery.
soulcircle Registered User (6/23/03 9:43 pm) Reply	................maybe Guests, One Taste and All, maybe One taste is right maybecircle
dawnrays Registered User (6/23/03 10:03 pm) Reply	Re: not dead physically One Taste, That was very unkind and you know it. I happen to know that Soul Circle is a very nice man. He is also a sensitive man who speaks from the heart. Even if this were his only achievement in life (and I don't know him well enough to know what others he has) this would still be more of an accomplishment than your preciouse srf, which by the way, doesn't matter because organizations come and go. In the end, only kindness matters, which is a lesson which you obviously have not learned yet and will never learn as long as you stay in that cold and unfeeling place. dawnrays
chuckle chela Registered User (6/23/03 10:44 pm) Reply	a somewhat random scattering of thoughts NtN, my vipassana friend, I think what you wrote about corporate and organizational climates was very telling and so true. The thing that you wrote that I would underscore is how employees, volunteers, members of these organizations buy into the mistreatment, even with enthusiasm, because they don't yet understand what's happening. As you said, it literally becomes a dance in which both sides are almost locked into a pattern of abuse, mostly at an unconscious level. These points have been raised before on the Walrus. The social psychological forces at work are often unconscious but nevertheless very, very powerful. Think of it: for years all of us put up--even embraced--some of the foolishness, some of the madness that has been manifest in SRF. Crack open any social psych text and you'll see dozens of accounts of such behavior. You wrote that: "The breaking away, of course, can be monumentally hard because the culture strongly reinforces our dependance on that dance." I agree. But as well, our hopes, dreams, and fears also reinforce our dependance on that dance (and our willingness to accept the nonsense reinforces the leaders to think they're doing the right things). I know I certainly rationalized many insanities until finally the damn burst and I just couldn't do it anymore. Imagine telling people they can't sit on the grass, meditate in the retreat chapel, use an armrest in public, etc., etc. Sheer idiocy when things are taken to such extremes, but we put up with it for years. In the end, it seems to me this is just another reason for compassion. It becomes less and less a black and white issue; it becomes harder for me to say that person X is 100% at fault and I am entirely free of fault. Ranger, I think you make a great point about tribes. Like it or not, they've always been there and they always will be. As the great anthropologist Margaret Mead once said, "No matter what you try to do, you'll always end up with the family." The need to belong to some kind of family, group, tribe, organization (I use that word in a very loose sense) of some kind is almost universal. It's yet another reason why we get locked into the dance. Dawnrays, I read your post about your experiences in SD with sadness. It must have been hard for you and your family. And then to be turned down when you tried to start a group--ouch! Sadly, the only place it seems we can talk about these matters is in a forum like this. One Taste, what you say about the SRF org being in survival mode rings true. I think we'd all agree that, by and large, those running the org are NOT interested in talking, especially to folks who see the emperor's not wearing much these days. Their main interest is in keeping the org running as it has for years, with them firmly at the helm. It's understandable and it's sad. NtN, your points about the chakras and blockages are interesting. Regardless of how you want to frame it, it does seem to me that there are some fundamental psychic/energetic/emotional blockages or fears or inabilities to love and express empathy in some or many of the SRF leaders that are behind a good deal of the weirdness (and, in saying this I don't mean to minimize the roles the rest of us play in all this). If there's ever going to be any talking or communicating or understanding, somehow these barriers and blockages have to dissolve. Can the rest of us play any part in that process? I don't know. I am very conscious of all the attempts (all apparently unsuccessful) that were made to communicate by the monastics and others. This brings me to One Taste's point: *Quote:* Timeless is as timeless does, but time marches on and upgrades are always in order on that score. The inability to see this, on the part of the devotees and the leaders of the org seems to me to be at the heart of many of the difficulties we are up to our elbows in, vis-à-vis Vishwananda’s assertions that this is an old teaching and the brass knows what it’s doing. Timeless is not the same as “really, really old.” The timeless elements of the teachings are just that. The other stuff will evolve or die out. Nothing is immune from this except that which is timeless. Agreed. Again, the leaders (and many of us, for years) misunderstand this and think that all the externalities are written in precambrian granite. Ergo, there's no need for dialogue as nothing will ever change. Sad. Pathetic, even. Knot of Vishnu? Maybe . . . . I dunno. Finally, returning to NtN's point about blockages, one might ask whether the meditative/spiritual processes and exercises will, in time, remove these impediments. While they may, it's not unreasonable to suggest that for some this process is going to take, ah, a bit of time. Sadly, many of us have either run out of time waiting or are about to. Even sadder, a helluva lot of suffering has already been perpetuated. I think that one of the points that is salient in all these discussions, and it is a point that many have brought up, is that each person who becomes aware of all this has a responsibility, even if only to him- or herself, to figure out an appropriate response to all this. It doesn't seem to be that easy, and each person has their own response, but it does seem that one can't just ignore all this and pretend nothing is happening.
soulcircle Registered User (6/23/03 10:45 pm) Reply	Vishwananda Guests and All, Any updates on who is in charge of SRF day to day matters? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ the following is a fantasy I fell into..... Can any of you in the offices fax financial statement [ I realize I am depending on the non-member secretaries who discover this board, among others handling inner office papers] to a fax number without being caught. ......laughing, in the manner Greg Palast [author of The Best Democracy Money Can Buy] gets some material perhaps see www.gregpalast.com SRF Walrus,True Enuf, Notice the Noticer, dawnrays and those clearly independent SRF...... do you have a fax number that can be used? any text in files you can email to heypoet@aol.com .. soulcircle wouldn't Michael Flynn have his work cut out IF he realized I am in his office?? i haven't had my hat out asking for money recently, but now my hat is out begging for documents.... why does tea mke me so crazy? end of fantasy session, are there requests for more fantasies ~~~~~~~~~~~~ open mic fantasy circle
ranger20 Registered User (6/24/03 9:56 am) Reply	Re: They don't want to talk... *Quote:* I had a very strange dream. Master came in, looking sort of sad and He said, "You're angry, you know that!" I didn't understand so I just said "I trust you." He said "That's not what I'm talking about." Then instantly I found myself in another dream where I was water skiing away, very happy, very free. When I looked behind me, I saw a group of people standing in front of a white building (I think with pillars) with hand-cuffs on and looking angry and confused . Wow! I remember Bro. Turiyananda fielding a Convo satsang question about dreaming of one of the gurus. With all the force of which he was capable, he emphasized that "A dream of one of the Gurus is not a dream!" As far as what to do now, to "help," it sounds like you are doing exactly what you can at the moment; admitting you don't know, discussing it with those you can (here), and watching dreams and inner processes. I'd take that not-a-dream of Master as a clear indication that some kind of seed is sprouting, though currently underground. In the past, I've had periods of receiving "big dreams" like that. I'd love one now, but as part of the lila, I find myself dreaming of things like cornflakes. I know the theory, any dream image can convey surprising depths, (hmmm, golden, nutrition, breakfast, new day dawning, etc), but still, cosmic messengers are much more exciting.
OneTaste Registered User (6/24/03 10:28 am) Reply	Re: not dead physically dawnrays: *Quote:* One Taste, That was very unkind and you know it. Yeah, it was, wasn’t it? But was any of it true? Like you said yesterday, “Telling the truth is a good start.” Ya ever notice that anything and everything is fair game around here as long as it is directed at the Evil Ones on the Hill, but any little bit of heat aimed at someone here, and it’s bad, bad, bad! There’s a point in there somewhere, which is why I made the points I did. *Quote:* I happen to know that Soul Circle is a very nice man. He is also a sensitive man who speaks from the heart. He is, he is, and he does. And he’d be the first to tell you that sometimes his heart gets a bit far out front and his head has trouble keeping up. Just like the rest of us. *Quote:* Even if this were his only achievement in life (and I don't know him well enough to know what others he has) Oh, I know him well enough and I can tell you he’s an accomplished weirdo as well. And, no I’m not putting him down. He knows me, too, and he will tell you that from my pov, that’s a fine compliment. But he's a tough nut as well as a nut. Far more than just a nice man. Don’t worry. Dave and I go back years. We’re pals. Which is also why I'm ticked off at him for walking out on Dev at that meeting. I would have loved to have known Dev's reaction. *Quote:* this would still be more of an accomplishment than your preciouse srf, which by the way, doesn't matter because organizations come and go. How did it get to be my SRF? And c’mon, dawnray. Look, it’s nice to stand up for Dave, and I applaud ya for it. But SRF matters deeply. Look how screwed up we all are and all the stuff that goes on here. I wish it you were right, though. I’d be a lot happier about it all if it didn’t matter. *Quote:* In the end, only kindness matters, which is a lesson which you obviously have not learned yet and will never learn as long as you stay in that cold and unfeeling place. Geez, but I am inconsistent. Yesterday I was too good for it, today I’m just exactly perfect for it. Well, I told you not to give me too much credit, huh?

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