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egoananda
Unregistered User
(11/17/01 5:10 am)
Reply 		The war of the types in SRF
There is a very interesting book circulating lately among devotees. I was introduced to it a few weeks ago by a close friend which I respect for his clear understanding of deep issues. The book is called "Please Understand Me." It is written by David Keirsey, a well respected psychologist. He sold 2 million copies of his first edition with zero advertisement. I just finished reading the second edition, which is definitely superb. Nothing come even close as a model for human personalities. I can't recommend this book enough. And, it is a must for anyone who wants to understand the SRF issues in depth.

Keirsey's book is about a system called "the Myers-Briggs." This system, based on the Jungian personality types, divides human beings in 4 basic groups. This division is not artificially based; it is fully empirical and you can watch these types in real life interacting and constantly manipulating each other. God definitely created these four groups, and there has been basic knowledge of them since the times of the Greeks or even earlier.

1) The Artisans -- (40% of the population) they believe that life should be fun, to play, and to live in the present moment. Example: John Kennedy

2) The Rationals -- (10% of the population) they believe in science and rational thinking. If you are objective you will be happy, if you are not you will pay the price. They are highly independent. Example: Einstein

3) The Idealists -- (10% of the population) they believe in lofty ideals that when attained will grant happiness. They believe in cooperation, and they are the master's when it comes to diplomacy. Their most important quests in life: authenticity (subconscious for many years), and aspire to the wisdom of the sages. Example Gandhi

4) The Guardians -- (40% of the population) they believe that with the right set of rules, society will function smoothly and everyone will get their needs met. They believe in law, order and tradition. Example: George Washington and Mount Washington; i.e. Daya Ma, Brother Baktananda, Uma Ma, Possibly Mrinalini Mata etc. etc. etc.

You will find much better descriptions of course in the book.

The interesting point here is that the first SRF generation -- the "direct" disciples -- are mostly Guardians except Anandamoy who is a rational but promised Master to be loyal to the Guardians (to D.M.) so he also acts as a guardian (and as a result is unhappy.) Guardian's were necessary at this first stage to protect "the seed" of the teachings.

However, the second generation of monks, are not Guardians, they are all idealists!: Devananda, Satyananda, Anilananda, Mitrananda, Atmananda, etc. -- all idealists! Why? Because the second generation has quite a different mission in regard to the teachings -- to update them, to humanize them, and to communicate them in a diplomatic (friendly) language.

Guardians do not like changes, Idealist LOVE changes! This is why for the second generation Master has chosen idealists -- to modernize his teachings to the 21st century language. Idealists are very skillful at verbal and written communication, and will do a much better job than the guardians at communicating the teachings-- they are the masters when it comes to communication. In fact, the idealists today (only 10% of the population), dominate the fields of counseling, teaching, championing social causes, and healing arts. So, Master know what he is doing. The Guardians will resist change of course -- that is their nature ( A BIRD IS A BIRD AND A FISH IS A FISH). But eventually, Master will get his way.

At a personal level, we can see very clear what is the challenge for all these Idealist monks, which now we see under the boots of the Guardians. The Idealist challenge throughout life, at a personal development level, is to become authentic, to find themselves, to learn to trust their feelings and thoughts. So, all these Idealist renunciants are facing exactly the same dilemma. Learning to trust there feelings and thoughts, and have the courage to speak their minds, despite the intimidation of the Guardians that want everything to run according to the manual and the "traditions."

How can the idealists win the battle? Becoming conscious of what is their challenge, and using their ability to cooperate with each other. This is a bit difficult because studies have shown that people with similar personalities tend to feel suspicious about each others intentions. However, if they get united, if they understand finally their mission, and trust themselves, Master will be able to use them for his plan -- to turn SRF into a worldwide, modern spiritual path, and to turn them into "the pillars of his temple."

Raja Begum
Unregistered User
(11/18/01 2:49 pm)
Reply 		This is the Rosetta Stone!!
keirsey.com/

A devotee turned me on to that book this year. It's probably the single most important key to understanding why the Mata's WON'T change.

Guardians are by nature the gatekeepers of society --- for better or for worse depending upon your subjective relationship to their agenda. I am convinced that these Mata's are drunk with their own energies. Meaning: in their use of judgment, as leaders of the SRF organization, they are not expressing realization so much as their temperament bias. Observe closely and you will see that the people who are most comfortable with rules and formal structure, often the ones with beaurocratic minds (other guardians) are the ones who seem to feel at home working in the present SRF environment. Also we can say that those of other typologies who have become dissociated from themselves by constant outer conditioning may express some form of surface contentment with the organization. But these latter types are due for a miserable awakening at some future point. I know because I happen to be one of them.

I took the test and turned out to be an idealist. More specifically, I am a fighter for causes -- what Kiersey calls "The Champion" My typology was similar to revolutionary and colorful historical figures and celebrities such as Thomas Paine, Leon Trotsky, Oliver Stone, John Lennon, Joan of Arc, and "The Unsinkable Molly Brown" (survived the sinking of the Titanic, commanded a lifeboat while oaring and directing others and then helped to nurse the ill aboard the rescue ship). Thus it is natural for me to get involved in causes -- which is why I'm on this message board and so vocal as well as why I chose the name Raja Begum.

There are three other subtypes of the Idealist. Keirsey also identifies the following: The Healer, The Counselor, and The Teacher. Many of you probably fit into one of these categories. It may very well be that the "war" in SRF is a war of types as Rigititananda so eloquently explains.

A Guardian administration would reduce us all to managers and clerks. It is the nature of Keirsey's Idealists to express authenticity.... like our Guru for heaven's sake!!!

....."DARE TO BE DIFFERENT"

Guardians are threatened by change. Their nature is to keep things the same. But God created us too. And our nature is to introject change and stimulate progressive thought. Those of you reading this right now who have felt out of a purpose with SRF should take heart by what I'm about to say: Your purpose is to challenge the rigidity going on in SRF. You are to speak up. You are to make changes. You are to make a place for your type in SRF. To call SRF "universal" when it is actually a lair and spiritual resort for the Guardians is doubletalk.

We must make a place for ouselves in our Guru's work. I now understand that Kriyananda, a Kiersey Idealist, had to be kicked out. He was the oil in their water. Same thing is happening to us. I don't want to join Kriyananda or any other organization. I have a new understanding about him, myself, and all the rest of us who a been roasted on the spit of disdain and criticism from "on high." I don't want to become some prefab, die cast rendering of an ideal Self-Realizationist, I wan't to reach down into my essence and express the very core of who I am. That is my service to God. For, in doing so, I inspire others to do so.

Somewhere else on this message board, it was mentioned that Anandamoy isn't truyly happy. Of course he's not. He's an abstract thinker -- what Keirsey calls a Rational. His natural ability to sense incongruencies in structure has been stifled. He has become a party man who has enslaved his intellect and his rational gifts in the service of a bunch of narrow thinking Guardians. The result is he's a lot like Orwell's Winston Smith in "1984" who, by the end of the story, is conditioned so thoroughly that 2+2 equals whatever the party says it equals.

Rigiditananda
Unregistered User
(11/19/01 2:30 am)
Reply 		VICTORY IS WATING FOR US
Great Raja Begum. I can see that you had great insights through the Keirsey's book. I'm glad we have a Champion type with us. We need more of them, since they are the best to fight for a fair cause. They intuitively know how to win the battle. And we will win, because Master is with us.

I want now to propose some typologies for the main characters in the play, so we know well our enemies (friends in disguise) and friends:

Master: ("The Teacher") ENFJ (NF= Idealist type) (2% of the population) ENFJ means: Extroverted, Abstract, Feeling (friendly empathic), Judging (organized, schedule and goal oriented).

As Keirsey says, these individuals are highly charismatics, and a gang follows them from early childhOod (sounds like Master?) Of course Master developed his inferior functions (I,S,T,P) quite well so he was able to play any personality at will, but his basic typology was ENFJ - The Teacher.

Daya Ma: ("The Supervisor") ESTJ (SJ: Guardian Type; 40% of the population) ( ESTJ means: Extroverted, Sensing (concrete and practical), Thinker (tough minded) and Judging) (10% of the population)

Uma Mata: (ISTJ) (The Inspector) (SJ: Guardian Type) "I" stands here for Introverted and the other letters were explained already (10% of the population)

Mrinalini Mata: (ISTJ) (The inspector) (SJ: Guardian Type) (10% of the population)

Mukti Mata: (INFJ) (The Counselor) The only idealist (NF) among older nuns. That's why she is such incredible counselor.

Ananda Mata: ???

Brother Anandamoy: (INTP) The Architect (NT: Rational type, less than 10% of the population)) P stands for "Probing" (1 % of the population). You could help us to bring common sense to this mess, because as a Rational YOU KNOW WELL that this whole thing "is not objective nor rational." Please wake up from the delusion of blind obedience! Be yourself. You are a rational NOT A GUARDIAN! come on!

Brother Baktananda ISFJ (The Protector) (SJ: Guardian Type) (10% of the population)

Anilananda: (INFJ) (The Counselor) (NF: Idealist (less than 10% of the population) (1% of the population)

Devananda: (ENFJ) (The Teacher) (NF: Idealist) (2% of the population)

Satjananda: (ENFJ) (The Teacher) (NF: Idealist) (2% of the population)

Mitrananda: (ENFP) (The Champion) (NF: Idealist) (2.5% of the population)

Atmanada: (INFJ) (The Counselor) (NF: Idealist) (1% of the population)

As we see, Master's typology is quite different from that of his direct disciples, BUT IT IS THE SAME AS THAT OF THE NEW GENERATION OF MONKS.

So, hang in there our NF, idealist monks! We are praying for you. One day you will rule, and we will get common sense back to our beloved SRF. Meantime play your great roles as counselors and teachers. No one is better prepared to do it than you. You are born psychologists and teachers. Keep on our friends, we have all our hopes on you, and we will support you and cheer you up. THERE ARE MANY IDEALIST DEVOTEES OUTSIDE TOO AND WE ARE ALSO AWAKENING! We know what you are going through under the boots of the Guardians -- but nothing is for ever in this plain. Master is on your side. Rigiditananda


Deep
Unregistered User
(11/19/01 8:01 am)
Reply 		Rigid’s Analysis
Daya Mata extroverted? I see someone who avoids public speaking except in very very controlled situations. At Convocation she has her family and close friends sitting right up front for support. She even has an army of ushers guard her so no one can get to her as she walks into the building. She talks to almost no one but large contributors and celebrities, or the covey of back stabbers she has constantly circling and protecting her. She doesn’t even talk to her fellow monastics! I can’t see extroverted.

Daya Mata tough minded and practical? Look how she runs SRF. I see someone afraid to make decisions, someone afraid to delegate authority, and someone who is easily manipulated by others around her. She is very insecure and too proud to really ask someone for help with her responsibilities.

She keeps her self completely removed from all but a few and there is overwhelming spin that she is a saint and perfect and Master’s channel. We can’t really tell for sure what problems with her personality cause the things we see.

Xer
Unregistered User
(11/19/01 8:55 am)
Reply 		For Rigiditananda
You might want to know that Satyananda is by no means part of a new generation of monks. He was placed on the Spiritual Life Committee (what is left of it) by the leadership. He plays it their way. So perhaps according to Kiersey, he would be more of a guardian type.

Raja Begum
Unregistered User
(11/19/01 12:47 pm)
Reply 		My observations
Not necessarily. I met a woman who turned out to be an ISFJ (Counselor - Idealist) on the test but whose demeanor was very Guardian. Her description of her parents led me to conclude that they were Guardians. At the time we made this discovery, my friend was going through a life crisis. Her true self was emerging, and it was clear that her previous choices in work and life were not congruent with who she really is but were the result of early childhood conditioning.

Satyandanda may be such a case. He's too abstract in his thinking to qualify as a Guardian. But he may have issues going back from childhood which make him compromise his authenticity in order to get approval from authority. The other possiblity is that he is an ESTP (Promoter - Artisan). They are the most manipulative types. They can be anything you want them to be so long as they get ahead. Madonna is one example, Another example is the fictitious character Jay Gatsby from "The Great Gatsby":

"He smiled understandingly -- much more than understandingly. It was one of those rare smiles with a quality of eternal reassurance in it, that you may come across four or five times in life. It faced --- or seemed to face -- the whole external world for an instant, and then concentrated on you with irresistible prejudice in your favor. It understood, believed in you as you would like to believe in yourself and assured you that it had precisely the impression of you that, at your best, you hoped to convey. Precisely at that point it vanished --- and I was looking at an elegant young rough-neck, a year or two over thirty, whose elaborate formality of speech just missed being absurd. Some time before he introduced himself I'd got a strong impression that he was picking his words with care."

If Satyananda turns out to be a Promoter, then he is using people to get ahead and telling people what they want to hear. Not very spiritual! Only those who know him in close association will be able to make that distinction.

In my opinion, Daya Mata is a Guardian. There are four types of Guardians: Supervisor, Inspector, Provider, and Protector. Two of them -- the Inspector and Protector -- are introverted.

At any rate, SRF is definitely run by Guardians. A fellow SRF member decribed the SRF organization as ISTJ (the guardian Inspector). This is a type prone to rules, regulation and checking up on people. I = introverted, S = concrete thinking, T = tough minded / unempathic, J = judging / scheduling. I feel comfortable with that assesment and find it bodes well with the fact that the majority in charge at Mt. Washingon are Guardians.

Ananda Mata is hard to categorize since she's virtually inaccessible to the public. Based on others' descriptions of her, I'd say she's either an ISTJ (guardian Inspector) or INTJ (rational Mastermind). Tara Mata was the latter. People who practice law tend to be either unempathic Rationals, who can spot deficiencies in an argument or system, or they tend to be law-loving Guardians. Either way we have grounds for paranoid behavoir. Anyone want to sharpen the distinction?

Rigiditananda
Unregistered User
(11/20/01 12:34 am)
Reply 		Daya Ma Intro or extro?
Yes, I may have made a mistake DEEP, and DM is introverted, thanks. But she is definitely a guardian type "SJ" In fact the insecurity you talk about may be a reflection of her introversion. In that case she would be an ISTJ -- Inspector -- IN PERFECT TUNE WITH THE SRF PARADIGM (which is also ISTJ). Then, we could conclude here something absolutely fascinating:

Raja Begum rightly says that the SRF paradigm is "ISTJ" in nature. This is because 1) it promotes Introversion (going within) and expresses contempt for extroversion. 2) It promotes "do not think too much;" no abstraction; be concrete and practical, be simpleminded! 3) It is (T) tough minded -- "90% depends on how you take it, so "if I hurt your feelings it is your fault because you didn't have the strength to do not get hurt."!!!!!!! 4) It is judging (J) -- goal oriented, disciplined, and schedule minded. The ISTJ is also called "The Serious." You know why? Because, out of the 16 types of the Myers - Briggs, the ISTJ is the most serious of all types! By the way, did you become too serious in SRF? -- Now you know why.

So, Ma, has permeated the paradigm with her own typology, to such an extent that now, the teachings and the organization, reflect exactly her personality -- everywhere -- that is the power of typology!!!!!

It is completely a subconscious force. She is absolutely convinced, as all of us are in regard to our perspective, that the way she looks at the world is the way the world SHOULD be. We are all blinded by our typology! We love you anyway Ma. Your blindness is cute. It is consoling to know that saints are also blind -- as much as we are -- to even basic things.

In regard to Satyananda, I know him enough to guarantee that he is an idealist, not an Artisan, least an ESTP (promoter). He is an Extroverted (E), Abstract/ Intuitive (N) (he is definitely a born speaker), Feeling type (F), and (J) Judging type. His problem is, I agree with Raja Begum, many Idealists share it in different degrees, a need of approval from authority. He still has to wake up, but he will! It is too painful to live an unauthentic life -- he will wake up! We have also consider that his monastic vow of obedience binds him to obey, but in the depth of his mind he is struggling with the same issues every monk of this generation is going trough. He will not fail us! He is one of us.

In my opinion, the war is going on, and it will not stop. Idealists are usually happy teaching, healing, doing counseling and so on, but this time is not enough. The reason is: unless the editorial department falls fully in their hands, and they control completely the teachings, their work will be always extremely limited. The problem in the teachings now is mostly the writings -- lessons and books. The talks given by Idealists monks at the temples are quite safe nowadays, but, the lessons are dangerous, and also many books. The idealist monks will have one day to rewrite the whole set of Lessons to make sure it is safe, empathic, and gives room for all typologies -- not only for Guardians! And same with many books.

So, we have here a painful situation, because we idealists do not like power struggles, but this time we are forced to fight -- with tremendous pain. Idealists are the Brahmins of old. Guardians are the Kshatriyas. We find in the Indian scriptures many instances in which a Brahmin is challenged by a Kshatriya, and, despite the peaceful nature of the Brahmins, the Brahmin wins. Why? Because their power is spiritual in nature and that is the highest power. Furthermore, Master was an idealist (ENFJ) and he fully understands what is going on here, and at the right moment he will help.

Carbohydramoy
Unregistered User
(11/21/01 3:56 pm)
Reply 		History Lesson
The 24 "rules" of the order . . . Originally, Lee Standing, known to some of you as Mokshananda, wrote over 150 of them. This was the beginning of the "structure" of the Order. The Guardians were Virginia (Ananda Ma) and Lorrie (Tara Ma). After all, why wouldn't a mother not want to protect her son's organization?

Some of you may remember a Satsang where Daya Ma was reminded of a comment that Master made to the effect that He wouldn't recognize the work in 200 years. Ma's comment after withdrawing in thought for some time . . . "Yes, the work will change, but not on my watch!"

Over the years, many have come, many have gone. They range from very bright souls, both intellectually and spiritually, to borderline (and a few not so borderline) psychotics.

Ultimately, growth in all spiritual persuits returns to faith, "the substance of things hoped for." The quest for Truth, as PY and many others have said is simple, everything else is complex. Simple equates to One. All that is not One is illusion. Chapter 1 of the Holy Science is clear on this. Turn off the 24 elders, slay the 4 beasts, and what you have left is the sound of one hand clapping.

Give Me Thy Heart says it clearly . . . when you no longer need to be a part of the ashram life, "give it your blessing and go". The same holds true for membership in any organization.

As one of the few INTJ's out there, my thoughts, as I read many of the thoughts on this BBS are reduced to a brief quote in Chapter 11 of the Gita . . . "My agent thou, O this is how I work my plans in Universe through instruments diverse: 'Tis I who slew and yet will slay the senses train through thee, as through both past and future ones, my soldiers' sane!"

My first visit. Probably won't be my last. Boy can I have fun. . .

Raja Begum
Unregistered User
(11/21/01 10:31 pm)
Reply 		In 200 Years
Master said he wouldn't recognize the work in 200 years. Is he implying that the change would be negative or positive?

George Washington could have said the same thing about America. We now have airplanes, cars, paved roads, and computers. But that doesn't make America worse. It's a progressive change.

I wonder if Master meant that the work will evolve into something more richer and diverse than what he began. Why not? Would Jesus be happy seeing people still wandering around in togas and sandals 2,000 years later? His dispensation flowered into a civilization.

I have bad news for Daya Mata. On her watch, the change has already begun.

Crog
Unregistered User
(11/22/01 12:44 am)
Reply 		Not on my watch
Isn't Daya Mata the important one though! "not on my watch!" Her watch? Very revealing to me. A little too self important in my view.

Raja Begum
Unregistered User
(11/22/01 4:57 am)
Reply 		Daya Mata reveals her temperament type
Daya Mata's comment is revealing for another reason. It reveals to us that she is indeed a Guardian type on the Kiersey Temperament Sorter.

Let's read what Keirsey has to say about Guardians:

"Guardians naturally assume the role of society's gate-keeper, standing guard at the door and keeping a watchful eye on the coming and going of the people under their jurisdiction. Those without proper credentials (outsiders) cannot be allowed through, those who ignore boundaries (trespassers) must be caught and reprimanded, and those who think they have the right just to barge in (gate-crashers) need to be stopped and expelled --- 'shown the door' as [they] tend to say."

Furthermore:

"Guardian self-esteem is greatest when they present themselves as dependable, trustworthy, or accountable in shouldering their responsibilities. 'No matter what,' says the [Guardian], 'you can count on me to fulfill my obligations and to honor my contracts."

A final critical point to consider:

"Change for a Guardian is unsettling" Guardians are the " keepers of tradition, of custom, of continuity with the past.....the new, the improvised, and the innovative, seem almost an affront to time-honored traditions, and are certainly unsettling."

In the light of these quotes, Daya Mata's vow to prevent SRF from changing on her watch was merely a Guardian's affirmation of purpose. By saying that he would not recognize SRF in 200 years, Master was implicating a profound change in his organization. As I stated before, it cannot be assumed that the change would be negative. However, Guardians, such as Daya Mata, are naturally "pessimistic in looking ahead" to the future but very solicitous of the past. With that orientation, what else could we expect from her?

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