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soulcircle Registered User (12/4/02 8:05 am)	someday......or maybe not psychdev, mabye you will never experience the..................................................... circle
psychdev Registered User (12/4/02 8:34 am)	Re: someday......or maybe not soulcircle: I like your style.
soulcircle Registered User (12/4/02 8:43 am)	major diappointment stylistic psychdev let's avoid the phone, you'll be bummed we'll keep the discussion in here.....public circle
psychdev Registered User (12/4/02 11:07 am)	Re: Concentration Camps soulcircle: <<in front of me monks were willing to suggest the need to "round up and gas em">> Let me make sure everyone understands: You are stating, here and now, that SRF monks suggested that dissident SRF members should be gassed? Correct? The tone of recent postings on this thread is getting pretty goofy (Nityananda is a Nazi; SRF members are "Hitler Youth; monastics believe dissidents should be gassed). Have I mentioned my recent experience with black SRF helicopters--the ones that spy on dissidents and take them away for interrogation in a small subterrean cavern near Area 51 in the Nevada desert? Also (when SRF takes time off from helicoptering dissidents), there is the well known SRF conspiracy with aliens, and the need to protect our precious bodily fluids from SRF pod-people. I recommend wearing garlic at all times. Edited by: psychdev at: 12/4/02 11:33:15 am
soulcircle Registered User (12/4/02 11:41 am)	the berkeley commies not srf students and kriyabans someone has to round em up the berkeley students i guess
Gitano no divino Registered User (12/4/02 4:50 pm)	SRF Nazis I will address Psychdev's specific charges and concerns later, but can anyone explain to me why the some of the most abusive, sarcastic remarks on this board seem to come from those who are defending an organization supposedly dedicated to peace and harmony? The spirit of open inquiry and evenhandedness one finds in the commentary of most of the folks on this board seems to arouse the acerbic ire of the Fernsys and Psychdevs. Are they actually practicing the meditation techniques they claim to believe in? You see, I AM NOT, obviously, taking any more dips in the infinite. So that's my excuse. I'm out of tune by choice and habit. But it appears to me that the pro-SRF claque has some soul-searching to do. If the claims we are making are truly so outlandish, it shouldn't prove too difficult to dispense with them in a calm manner. Perhaps they are finding their mark, however, and causing some real cognitive dissonance in the process. I HOPE SO. Then again, maybe some SRFers are just looking for a good fight and can't find one in the land of sweetness and light they usually inhabit. Well, you've come to the right place, guys. No harm in having a little fun, is there? Ach, so! Sie können Deutsch, Psychdev. Ausgezeichnet. Ich auch. Habe auch an der Uni studiert (München), als Fulbright Stipendiat. Nityananda war Freiwillige, sonst hätte ich das nicht gesagt. Morgen werde ich mehr über diese Sachen schreiben (auf Englisch, natürlich). Jetzt muss ich nach Hause. Bis bald! Edited by: Gitano no divino at: 12/4/02 6:16:36 pm
Ringbearer7 Registered User (12/4/02 6:55 pm)	Re: the berkeley commies >someone has to round em up the berkeley students i guess Sounds good to me! ;-) The extreme Leftys at Cal have no repsect whatsoever for free speech/thought. I say round them all up and send them off to BYU or some similar place and force them to drink non-freetrade cafe latte and read Ann Coulter! Edited by: Ringbearer7 at: 12/4/02 7:15:22 pm
psychdev Registered User (12/4/02 7:42 pm)	Re: the berkeley commies Gratuliere Dir... Aber woher weiss Du Bescheid, dass Nityananda freiwillige war. Ich glaube Das ueberhaupt nicht. Und Ich habe es vor, ihn Morgen anzurufen--wenn das moeglich ist--um zu fragen, op es eigenlich stimmt oder nicht. Dann die Leute benachrichten. Gitano: I don't think it's any great spiritual achievement to slander someone in a conversational tone of voice rather than shouting at them. In some ways it's worse. And to be amazed that someone would respond vigorously when you call Nityananda a Nazi is in itself quite amazing. On the one hand, your accusation is extremely provocative (I can think of few things more emotionally charged); on the other, "spiritual" is not a synonym for "weak". I think you need to rethink the meaning of "abuse" in this context, and in the context of implicitly accusing a monk of sympathy for genocide. I strongly suspect that when the full context is known, that Nityananda's alleged Waffen SS membership--even if it's true--will look at lot less sinister than you've painted it. FWIW. Edited by: psychdev at: 12/4/02 8:44:27 pm
psychdev Registered User (12/4/02 8:30 pm)	Re: the berkeley commies GD: <<I will address Psychdev's specific charges and concerns later>> I look forward to seeing this.
Gitano no divino Registered User (12/5/02 11:02 am)	Riposte *Quote:* You are completely, certifiably out of your mind. (I will provide the written certificate if you like). Psychdev, this is a fallacy. It's known as an ad hominem attack, or an abusive argument. I'm not offended. Please, be my guest (actually, my wife would probably agree with you!). But it is the best evidence that you are on shaky dialectical ground. If you can't do better than that in a debate, perhaps some additional training at Göttingen would be in order. There is a slightly hysterical quality to your posts that makes me uneasy. However, there's no doubting your intelligence and education, and I think you do occasionally make some good points. So, I'll continue the tussle for a while. You, of course, feel I descended to abuse in my characterization of Nityananda. But I was only reporting what I have been told; I have no intention of or interest in assaulting him verbally or defaming him. If you can establish that Nityananda was not a Nazi, I will welcome the revelation. I was told 20 years ago by a monastic that he had voluntarily joined the Waffen SS. If you can establish that that is not true, I will gladly retract the statement, with apologies to him and his memory (he died before I was given that information). Though you have fixated on that issue, it is not at all central to my argument, which is that there are several features of the SRF cult that resemble fascism. You haven't addressed those four points at all. Can you? At any rate, I know that my acquaintance was an unapologetic Nazi spy, and the other individual I mentioned was definitely sympathetic to Nazism. And it is an indisputable fact that in the February 1934 issue of East-West magazine Yogananda said that Mussolini was a "master brain" who had been sent on earth by God to serve as a role model for humanity. Here's something else to consider: I heard Brother Turiyananda state during a sermon that Hitler earned no bad karma for what he did because he was the "scourge of God." So, according to SRF, both Mussolini and Hitler were tools in the hands of God. How do you rationalize that away? Am I completely unjustified in stating that there is a undercurrent of sympathy for fascism running through SRF? In my opinion, to which I am entitled (SRF hasn't swept the world yet, anyway), that is a reasonable topic for discussion. I would also point out that I qualified my conjectures about what SRF might do if it had the kind of power Hitler did. I pulled out all the subjunctive stops. In my closing paragraph I said that it was perhaps not likely but more than merely possible. I stand by that deliberate ambiguity. It's all hypothetical conjecture, and such conjecture can serve as a spur to useful debate. You feel that a fiery defense of the teachings is perfectly consistent with spirituality. I have no problem with that. But I recall that Gandhi always insisted that one cannot separate means and ends. If you want to persuade people on this board that SRF is not the evil empire they have come to see it as, then I suggest you adopt a less confrontational stance and appeal strictly to reason, regardless of what you consider to be the reckless assertions of those like me and Member108. (It's called taking the high road. And in case you haven't noticed, a lot of folks here were highly placed in the ashram for decades and know whereof they speak; others critical of SRF here were around in the days of Yogananda, lived at Mt. Washington, and knew him very well.) I wonder if you aren't a Walrus reincarnation of Fernsy. It doesn't matter. Okay, the ball's in your court. Edited by: Gitano no divino at: 12/5/02 2:24:15 pm
soulcircle Registered User (12/5/02 12:21 pm)	if the man responsible for the recent purchase Guests and All, there has been a recent purchase of property for a new permanent center near hidden valley/valley center. there was a flyer at convocation inviting all to come to an open house the week following convocation. one of the people making the purchase was at richmond chapel 20 years ago. devananda was the speaker. he was talking of the big picture devananda got to how do you explain a world figure such as hitler? 20 years closer to the holocaust devananda said, "hitler was an agent of karma. a puppet, an actor in the cosmic play." the man who in 2002 was a part of this new center's open house and existence felt at the time ....."bs".... privately his feelings were something you could certify psychdev srf has learned from the uproar to tone it down a little bit and the sleeper is, some of us know devananda as a friend, and he is in some ways the farthest in his politics from nazism, yet he was saying this publicly when yogananda is back i will cue him to apologize to the world and to the worldwide jewish community for his support of the nazis. if the man responsible for the recent purchase or a permanent center wrote this post "........................" and psychdev would issue her second certificate of insanity without responding to points well made without filling in the correct syntax, in a sentence with a fill in the blank, many posts back in this thread and the friend that you are psychdev, is still warned, don't set up a phone call with me, it might be relaxed, hilarious and more fun ................i have a joke for you, i even would warm up to you and tell you the worst joke i have ever heard laughing ____________________________ hey what thread does the following comment go in at a gathering in November a couple was there who are kriyabans, and are regular attenders at sacramento srf. i asked the wife and husband, how are you? we made conversation and made friends we visited over two or three days it was at the Nov 18-25 Amma gathering the clincher the wife said, i really liked you, Dave, from the very beginning two days ago. at Sacramento, in five years no one, ever asked us, "How are you?" Guests, how are you all? All of us, How are we? circle Edited by: soulcircle at: 12/5/02 12:27:04 pm
psychdev Registered User (12/5/02 2:39 pm)	Re: if the man responsible for the recent purchase Gitano: In all seriousness, sometime I hope you will explain why it's "cognitive dissonance" when you accuse a dead monk of being a Nazi and a member of Hitler's execution squads (the Waffen SS). But it is apparently an ad hominem argument when I suggest that you slandered Bro Nityananda by failing to provide any verifiable facts, basing your very public accusation on hearsay from a 3rd party, from a conversation 20 years ago, about a dead man who cannot defend himself. You have added new depth (and sense of wonderment) to my understanding of "slander" and "cognitive dissonance". I simply skipped the rest of your very lengthy post. Regarding facts: I have placed a call with another German monk at SRF to try to get closure on this issue, perhaps with specific dates and other information. I will post any information I get here. In the meantime, I hope anyone who feels the need to post such an inflamatory claim in the future will carefully check facts before they post. Apologizing is admirable but it's sort of like retracting a statement that someone is a child molester--usually the person's reputation is permanently damaged. The cat is out of the bag; and Gitano's accusation is sure to be circulated by others even if it's completely false. The whole "Nazi" commentary on SRF is lamentable. I would suggest a stop to any further references of this kind. It just polarizes people. Edited by: psychdev at: 12/5/02 4:11:11 pm
psychdev Registered User (12/5/02 2:58 pm)	Re: if the man responsible for the recent purchase <<when yogananda is back i will cue him to apologize to the world and to the worldwide jewish community for his support of the nazis.>> Wow. Yogananda was a Nazi sympathizer. My wonderment increases. I'm sorely tempted to add a comment about pod-people and black helicopters. But I don't suppose that would be really helpful. But it sure would be fun.
psychdev Registered User (12/5/02 3:05 pm)	Re: if the man responsible for the recent purchase But maybe we could just transfer this whole thread to a new thread, called "Area 51". I would even settle for something less controversial, like "Amazing Rumors" (along with any stories people would like to contribute with the title: "Astronomers Report: Elvis Found on Mars!"). Sorry, I have to plead demonic possession. I couldn't resist, I couldn't, I couldn't. (If you hear uncontrollable giggling in the background, that's me). Forgive me soulcircle, this is definitely not meant personally for you (really). It's just that I do so love absurdity, in all it's forms. Isn't the human condition wonderful? Edited by: psychdev at: 12/5/02 3:12:39 pm
psychdev Registered User (12/5/02 4:51 pm)	Re: if the man responsible for the recent purchase OK, here's the best information I could get regarding Brother "Nityananda" (actually "Nishtyanada"). Quotes-marks indicate direct quotes from our telephone conversation today. According to the current Nishtyananda (Lake Shrine Nishtyananda)--a 15-year friend of the first N. and also German, the first N. was a mechanic in the printshop at SRF and led "a very secluded life". (Lake-Shrine Nishtyananda took his friend's name because he "admired him and liked the name".) The first N. was indeed a German soldier (as was anyone in that young age group who did not have a major physical disability). However Lake-Shrine N. "never heard him say that he was a member of the Waffen SS" despite having heard a lot about his war experiences. He was "completely unpolitical" and it would be "completely inconsistent with his character to have done such things". Lake-Shrine N. believes he was drafted "like everyone else" and was not a volunteer. However, he was a fearless soldier, a "national hero" and "real warrior", apparently serving an artillery battalion, where he was famous for leaping out "in the middle of shell fire to repair broken guns." Lake-Shine N. strongly denies that it would ever be possible for the first N. to have been in an execution squad. Lake-Shrine N confirms that by the end of WWII, the Waffen SS consisted mostly of people forced to fight--old men, young boys, prisoners. These did not fight in the execution squads of 1941-43, who served in Ukraine and central Europe. They were basically cannon fodder. Finally, Lake-Shrine N. says, "Why does it matter? If someone has served in an execution squad, they would be so distorted and burdened with karma they would never be able to meditate or become a monk." These are the best facts I could find, by a person who know Bro. N. for 15 years as a friend, and took his name because he admired him. Anyone who wants to know more is welcome drop by Lake Shrine and talk with the current Nishtyananada. I found him to be a warm, gentle, soft-spoken person, who was quite willing to discuss his friend. And he did this without the slightest trace of rancor at the claims made here. Now you have all the facts I have. Edited by: psychdev at: 12/5/02 6:43:23 pm
soulcircle Registered User (12/5/02 11:29 pm)	what is fact from any srf apologist? and what is fact that twenty years ago, some people at richmond temple were concerned that a monk from the podium said someone had to play out karma, someone had to do what hitler did? and what is fact about two kriyabans attending sacramento california group for five years saying no one talks, no one even asks us how we are doing? and what in any dream matters? not facts what matters is friendship what matters is going forward in good attitudes! and in this walrus board there are those who inspire me to continue healing and listening to others past suffering from an organization: ... that releases no financial statement an organization where the tens of thousand lay people are second-class members ____________________________ so we are here generating friendships, almost family in some cases, and some remarkably healthy attitudes i thank each one of you circle
Gitano no divino Registered User (12/6/02 9:15 am)	Nityananda Thanks for the information about Nityananda, Psychdev. I certainly retract my statement that he was a Nazi, except in the generic sense that he fought on the side of the Nazis (though he was apparently not ideological or a member of the party). I never suggested he was one of Hitler's executioners. As you know, the primary mission of the Waffen SS was not to murder but to fight. It was not identical with the regular SS, though it has been implicated in some atrocities. It never occurred to me that he was a murderer, as that was never my understanding of the Waffen SS's principal role. Since you did not read the rest of my post and won't address the questions I raised there, we obviously have nothing more to say to one another. By fixating on Nityananda and ignoring the other issues I and others have raised, you commit yet another fallacy: synecdoche, judging the whole from the part. And remember, I was not completely wrong about Nityananda, and your source is just as anecdotal as mine. No one knows if the monk you talked to is any more reliable than the one I did. But, in the interests of harmony, let's assume the best about Nityananda. I was hoping for a good debate with you, but it's turned into something else. To be dismissive of everything someone says on the basis of one thing they said makes any rational exchange impossible. You strike me as a very angry and frustrated person. I hope that your continued devotion to SRF and its teachings will ameliorate that problem over time. In any event, you have found a group of people you feel comfortable with. Since the Walrus is clearly a source of aggravation to you, and since it's unlikely you're influencing anyone here very much, I am left wondering about the motivation for your continued participation here. Maybe you like getting upset, or trying to upset others. It's hard to see how this is compatible with the philosophy you profess to believe, but of course you're not reading this, so let's call it quits. Edited by: Gitano no divino at: 12/6/02 3:24:20 pm
psychdev Registered User (12/8/02 6:51 pm)	Re: Nityananda GD: Several factual corrections. According to my sources, Waffen SS did indeed function extensively as an execution squad during the first 2-3 years of war, in addition to being an elite fighting unit, and was quite active in Poland and elsewhere in the murder of Jews, Gypsies, Polish Military officers, and political opponents. I'll be happy to provide you with further references if you'd like. Hence the accusation of membership in the Waffen SS has the conotation of mass murder. Second, to call the testimony of a 15-year friend to N as "anecdotal", and in the same category as your conversation 20 years ago with a 3rd party is pretty amazing. A 15-year close friendship is not on a par with a 15 minute (or even 15 hour) conversation. Third, your statement that I am being dismissive because of "one thing a person says" clearly indicates that you don't believe the Nazi comment was overwhelmingly important. Sorry, but you can't casually imply that two monks in SRF are sympathetic to the Nazi's (and their crimes) and then simply go on to the next subject. It's as if I casually repeated a (false) rumor that you, member108, and username were members of a child pornography ring, on the basis of a conversation that I had 20 years ago, and then tried to talk about somethign else, say, the latest lawsuit. That's not very reasonable. If opposing your "Nazi" statements (and their significance) is being "angry and frustrated", then I surely hope there will be many more angry and frustrated people joining this site. Further, in very profound ways, I think the guilt-by-association created by Nazi comparisons, and the egregious use of labels ("bad ladies", "cult") are a strong indication of the very trends which you (and some others) oppose in SRF: There is the strong smell of group-think and vigilantism in some postings. This is perhaps balanced by individuals who obviously have genuine concerns and are sincerely angry, hurt, or outraged by SRF's perceived behavior but are also open to real discussion. These people have contributed valuable information and facts. And I believe this board continues to serve a very valuable function in providing open discussion and greater transparency, despite my concerns about group-think and vigilantism. BTW the tenor of your previous posting (especially the last part) suggests, Gitano, that you wish I would go away. Sorry. That's not going to happen. It's important to provide an alternative point of view, especially when (as I believe) some postings are unbalanced or factually incorrect, or if the individual seems to have a primary agenda of discrediting SRF and "stirring the pot" because of visceral hatred for the organization. Unfortunately, I think there are one or two people with such an agenda posting on this board. (I don't believe you are one, however--I think you were primarily careless.) Edited by: psychdev at: 12/8/02 11:03:53 pm
srfwalrus ezOP (12/9/02 6:18 am)	Closed This thread has drifted off course and has nothing to do with the title, Vishwananda. Please open another thread if you wish to discuss Germany and World War Two.

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