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KS
Registered User
(11/27/02 6:53 am)
 Vishwananda
I am curious how he got to be such a central figure. I understand that he tried to join the SRF monastic order here in the early 1980's(?) but was not immediately accepted so he went to India. There he was able to join the YSS order. Back in something like 1990 or so he was brought over here to visit mother center and was kept here.

What were his duties the last 10 years or so? How did he emerge as the latest tool of the bad ladies? They don't let just anyone appear to have power, they must trust that they can control him. Did he work in the powerful Office of the President?

Anyone have some background here?

Edited by: KS at: 11/27/02 6:55:32 am
member108
Registered User
(11/28/02 5:37 am)
 Re: Vishwananda
I believe Faye saw his loyalty early on when he arrived. Loyalty to her means he will do what he is told and worships her as Realized. She then pulled him into the gray area of Secretary to the President. There are any number of these secretaries on both the mens and womens side. These are basically the Hitler youth, those loyal enough to do anything she needs done. Faye only allows these most loyal in her company for any period of time. Why put up with difficult questions!!! It is easier to act Realized when those around you worship you.

After years of this he still proved loyal so she put him on the Management Committee. This is the next great test she has for those around her. The MC has no real authority but is supposed to make things happen. People of conscience are sometimes driven mad or to illnesses with the pseudo pressure of this committee. Vishwananda didn't die or go mad from the stress so he outlasted the rest and is in charge of it.

As with other successful monastics in higher positions, the key to mental survival is to find someone else to lean on and make the decisions for you. The nuns in charge of most departments usually select a loyal (in the SRF sense) lay member employee to listen to and follow therefore somehow releasing them from the responsibility. It is sad to see them running around with what they call their companions in tow to think for them. In the case of the higher level monastics they can afford to have SRF hire formal consultants. For the Accounting fiasco they hired a whole bunch of consultants to help them think. These consultants then robbed the bank causing many of the problems they now have.

In Vishwananda’s case he now has the same situation. There is a lay member consultant who guides his will and releases him from much of the pressure of being responsible for making decisions. The poor guy. He became a monk to sit under a tree and help poor people in India and now he is in the Hitler Youth. I hope he follows his heart soon and works out the real meaning of loyalty to Yogananda.

psychdev
Registered User
(11/28/02 6:41 am)
 Re: Vishwananda
member108: <<These are basically the Hitler youth, those loyal enough to do anything she needs done.>>

Oy weh. I think most people will recognize this as the demogoguery that it is. Pure venom, in no way constructive.

Edited by: psychdev at: 11/28/02 6:42:16 am
member108
Registered User
(11/29/02 9:20 am)
 Re: Vishwananda
I sincerely believe the Hitler Youth describes his situation pretty well! Therefore I feel it is constructive in that it helps people understand what is going on within SRF, what pressures there are on Vishwananda, and how he has decided to react to them. While he is not being asked to kill anyone, his morality is being bent and twisted a small amount at a time. He is doing things to people he would never have dreamed of doing to them 10 years ago.

He has been through the basic SRF training and passed. He is finding out what that means. His values are now being tested against his learned understanding of loyalty to the organization. I hope he pulls out of it and survives.

wholetruth
Registered User
(11/29/02 6:57 pm)
 Re: Vishwananda/Daya Mata
Member108:

Maybe you can help me out. You see to have inside information on the SRF leadership. I can't seem to get a handle on Faye/Daya. I have the most recent SRF Magazine at home. I no longer subscribe on my own, but a dear friend keeps renewing my subscription, and I haven't had the heart to tell her that I'm not really interested anymore. So I continue to read it out of curiousity. In it Daya comes across as highly realized (she even speaks of her "experiences" and her state of consciousness) and such a divinely loving person. Help me out here. Is it all an act? Is she a total fraud or is she totally self-deluded, believing she is something she is not, or is there some other explanation? It's hard to reconcile the image of Daya presented by SRF with all the information contained here in this message board, with the way she treated people like Durga Ma and Kriyananda (his mistakes and failings aside), and with what I know of SRF's legal campaign against their many "enemies."

I admit that I have expressed some opinions about her myself in this forum, but then I read her pious words, and it all seems a bit confusing!

Any other knowledgeable person out there with an explanation?

Edited by: wholetruth at: 11/29/02 7:04:02 pm
member108
Registered User
(11/29/02 10:31 pm)
 Re: Vishwananda/Daya Mata
Yogananda gave us the answer in his Autobiography. Read all the stories of great saints who could talk the talk and perform miracles of all kinds but who had serious character flaws. Having experiences and the ability to inspire people with an article does not mean one is God Realized. Watch what they do, how they treat others.

It is my opinion but if someone came to this path to serve Master they would have no need to draw attention to themselves as she does. Why write articles of your own, has Master not said it all and as well as it can be said? Why play the God Realized saint? Why the Mata stuff and royal court? Why when you became 65 or 70 didn't you turn over the presidency to someone else? Do you believe that even though Master is running SRF it will not do well without your enlightened direction? It does not add up.

Reading my own experiences or those of my associates on an annonymous board should not convince anyone either way on her. However, look at the organization she has built. The headquarters culture directly reflects her true nature. If you personally know someone who has been a monastic or worked in Los Angeles, ask them what the culture was like. Chances are they never even saw Faye, however they can tell you about the culture she has created.

psychdev
Registered User
(11/30/02 6:14 am)
 Re: Vishwananda/Daya Mata
member108: <<I sincerely believe the Hitler Youth describes his situation pretty well!>>

Then you don't have a clue about Nazi persecution of the Jews, or the history of the 1930s. Your suggestion is not just wrong--it's smug and grossly insulting to anyone who knows about the Nazi era:

If we were to believe you, the SRF hierarchy physically assaults elderly people; gasses the sick and mentally ill, believes that anyone nonwhite is inferior and unworthy of life; and wants to physically subjugate the world. They will make sure that anyone who disagrees with them is fired from their jobs, their stores burned, and their children removed from school. They believe in the superiority of the Aryan race.

Your world is apparently populated either by saints (realized masters who can work miracles) or evil people ("Hitler Youth"). Sorry, but SRF consists of rather ordinary people, with real personalities, and the same kind of everyday problems which we have. You seem to have a whole lot of trouble with ambiguity and the possibility that individuals may not be saints or evil individuals, but merely people.

Further: Your outlandish ideas (and willingness to push them despite all evidence to the contrary) makes me wonder what your motivation is and who, exactly, you represent. I smell special pleading.

Edited by: psychdev at: 11/30/02 6:15:43 am
wholetruth
Registered User
(11/30/02 7:08 am)
 Re: Vishwananda/Daya Mata
Also: Why do some here refer to Daya as a "bad lady?" "Bad" in what sense? Certainly not as in outright evil.

Here are a couple of dictionary definitions of "cult"--

"a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious (false, fraudulent); also : its body of adherents"

"a usually small circle of persons united by devotion or allegiance to an artistic or intellectual (religious?) movement or figure"

There are other less specific definitions, but these seem to fit the way the term has been used here.

Edited by: wholetruth at: 11/30/02 9:21:11 am
KS
Registered User
(11/30/02 3:00 pm)
 Re: Vishwananda/Daya Mata
To Member108,
You stepped into a mine field! Comparing anything to the Nazi history brings up a lot of baggage and emotions. People almost never take it like you mean it. It is probably best to leave out those comparisons.

On the other hand in your defense I would say that what you were probably trying to say is that the techniques used in mental manipulation of the youth were not unlike the techniques used by cults to control members. I agree but again it is a mine field.

To Wholetruth,
We don’t refer the Daya as the bad lady. Bad lady is always used in the plural form, bad ladies. SRF is run by a set of old women who all have the same character flaws. There are many posts about it. Yes, Daya is one of them. She is the leader of them. “Bad” is meant in the sense that they do bad things for bad reasons. They are selfish and seek power (bad character), delude themselves about their motives (bad judgment), squander resources (bad management), hurt people (bad behavior) and so on.

The bad ladies evil? What is evil? I have heard SRF define it as that which pulls you away from God rather than toward him. I believe they do that. This is not the way the Centers and Group are run, so SRF people are not evil, but the bad ladies run their royal court system this way. We don’t mean evil in the sense of murder and other radical sins.

redpurusha
Registered User
(11/30/02 3:27 pm)
 Re: Vishwananda/Daya Mata
psychdev, its about time somebody spoke out against this black and white analysis of SRF. Everyone knows its not a perfect society, but to compare some of those inside to hitler youth (implying that the leader DM be compared to hitler), is an impossible stretch. Your description, it consisting of "rather ordinary people, with real personalities with similar problems to us" is more on the money.

Much like how when I visited Lake Shrine where I found the amount of fertilizer used to sanitize the area to be too much to fully enjoy the place, Yogananda's teachings and image have been over sanitized by SRF leadership to fully get his message. This reflects the reality that these people are not flawless in their actions, much like us. Yet this does not make them hitler youth or nazis.

psychdev
Registered User
(11/30/02 4:16 pm)
 Re: Vishwananda/Daya Mata
wholetruth: There are certainly *many* dictionary definitions of "cult". In fact, "cult" even has a positive meaning--simply referring to a particular object/person of veneration within the Catholic church. Do you mean that SRF is a cult in this (positive) sense? I doubt it.

The meaning which you obviously mean and which preoccupies people on this BB is the Jim-Jones/EST/Scientology/Heaven's Gate variety cult. It's the type of cult that people write books about, which make the news headlines, and that news programs cover. It's the popular meaning of cult.

This kind of cult has been carefully studied. Such cults typically have several common denominators, as I understand them: a charismatic leader with overwhelming narcissistic needs for admiration ("narcissistic fuel"); a membership which is physically or psychologically isolated; and an organization may deliberately threaten physical or psychological violence against members with the sole purpose of maintaining control. SRF is far from this stereotype IMHO. At most, SRF shares "trends" or a few specific "elements".

It's important to acknowledge that username's criteria of cult (listed in a different thread) could be applied to virtually ANY Catholic religious order, to orders of Theravaden Buddism, and probably groups of Orthodox Judism. It would also probably apply to Mennonites, the Amish, and the like. (If you don't think so, go down the list provided by username, one-by-one.)

Yet no-one addresses this issue. Why? Is it possible that people have the bit set so firmly between their teeth that it's hard to see alternatives/different possibilities? That these people are suffering from group-think? That they are trying simply to proselytize?

IMHO we need to come up with a much more honest term to describe SRF than "cult". If you want to say that there are specific "cult-like" trends or specific "cult-like" elements (naming them specifically), OK, that's at least plausiable... At least it's not demagogic--even if I personally think you're 90% wrong. It can be the basis of real discussion. But calling SRF a "cult" (or members "hitler youth" or leaders "bad ladies") is pure name-calling. It's childish. It convinces no one, provides no real information, and is maddeningly arrogant in that it assumes everyone on this board agrees with you.

The sad thing is that people are probably VERY interested in specific negative experiences with SRF--especially when these include lots of documentary detail regarding time, place and person, and are not primarily rhetorical. I strongly believe that telling the simple truth, unadorned by hyperbole, can be extraordinarily powerful. I greatly respect the ability to do this. This is true not only for organizations but also for dysfunctional families and most human relationships. Gandhi certainly discovered this fact; I hope we all will try our own "experiments with truth".

As a Coda: Imagine what would happen if human beings used the name-calling approach to solve relationship problems: Individuals would be reduced to calling each other "Idiot", "Jerk", etc. This doesn't get you very far! You might as well resort to hair-pulling and eye-gouging, in three-stooge fashion.

Edited by: psychdev at: 11/30/02 5:11:36 pm
member108
Registered User
(11/30/02 8:52 pm)
 Out there
I can see how people take those German comments and stretch them to the max. Sorry.

As far as cult definitions I think the Jim Jones meaning is more what many of us had in mind. A cult is an org being religious in nature or pretending to be. It is a place that uses its members for its own purposes and lies about that purpose. Manipulation is the key ingredient in the culture.

This does not imply that all members of a cult take on these characteristics. If some of you view yourselves as loyal SRF members and don’t feel you lie about your purpose or don’t feel you manipulate other SRF members I certainly agree. We attribute to the bad ladies running the place, not the people serving at the temples, groups, and centers. Of course some of them are willing participants and enable the activities of the bad ladies, but that is another story.

How did this thread get to here?

soulcircle
Registered User
(12/1/02 2:48 am)
 member108 and psychdev
member108,
i clearly sense the correctness in using strong language for strong patterns of control, fear, indoctrination etc....keep on keeping on!!!!!!!

psychdev and anyone,
email me, and hopefully set up a phone call
--while mother center has been passed off as our spiritual home, there needs to be a warning in clear sight, along the lines of member108's concerns at the front gate
--in your contact with me, i will directly tell you of the hour plus in nov. '97 that i spent in the admin building's library with satyananda and vishnuananda. in vishnuananda's rather quiet presence (sinister at the least, cause just over 24 hours previous in a laypeople-led forum.... he had described the process 15 of us established for one day at richmond, as "simply describable in one word..FELLOWSHIP!!") Now as satya flexed dastardly fearful muscles, tearing my soul with horrific fangs (after i naively said, "vishnu was at richmond these last two days and you, satya, are coming in 5 more days i will describe this richmond forum [spontaneous precursor of spiritual life committees] and be a bridge betwen your two visits!"), chewing my heart and spitting out scraps of what was once a living happy richmond temple secretary, me....vishnuananda's contribution at the end was, "you can still get back to richmond tonight, southwest has great standby."
my intention, and i followed through on this small personal aspect was to meditate long hours in the chapel in the morning, which i did, before leaving L.A.
In my morning meditation in the admin building's chapel i began the process of recovering, that i am still in, from the ........................[<<<you supply the correct syntax, psychdev for the hour of spiritual brutality, that satya, UNAWARES in some respects, RELISHING every moment in others......that satya dished out to me]
your choice of words is awaited friend psychdev

member108, who is the consultant at vishsuananda's side?

believe me all, reach me via email, with a direct email for you that i can respond to, when i click reply on two emails i have received thru ezboard, the reply goes Nowhere

believe me all, via email and my personal phone we can do much more than in here,

there is a fly in the ointment, and member108 is not wide of the mark

toss semantics (i agree the holocaust is the farthest thing from semantics) nonetheless toss some of the debate aside
______________

as i repeat one other specific story.....one of the two most completely inspiring, quiet and endearing, serving people that i have seen in over 20 years of very gregarious activity on my part at richmond......

one of the two kindest devotees, dreamlike in their calm and compassionate bearing, entered the l.a. ashram as a nun, and in 12 months came out (this over five years ago)
.....came out destroyed and still is destroyed

***********the travesty************

i sat for an hour in a circle of three that nov '97 at 4PM
in a "circle of travesty," a moment when thousands of you were about other things, but a moment, among many, that colored ALL our lives for now and into the future

the soulcircle is my plea as i beg all of you to email me, to stay in touch with me....to trust....to be a part of my healing ....as i am a part of you

and in the long millenia laying ahead of us as yosemite peers into distant ages

satya and vishnu are a part of any permanent true healing
____________________

for now anyone entering the "holy grounds" of san rafael avenue is in desperate need of warning

you often say, without a doubt, that this board is not for new students or members
think again.....the person first setting foot at 3880 san rafael needs some of the info in here AND more
as the foot, as their soul's journey enter the "circle of travesty!"

soulcircle in recovery

Edited by: soulcircle at: 12/4/02 2:00:26 am
Gitano no divino
Registered User
(12/3/02 9:50 am)
 SRF and Fascism
Member108 has exaggerated the Nazi analogy only in degree, not kind. I agree that equating SRF with the Hitler Jugend trivializes the evil and horrors of Nazism. But I am persuaded that a fascistic culture pervades SRF and its administrative apparatus, and that there is a disturbing sympathy to fascism on several levels in the organization, a sympathy that can be traced back to Yogananda himself.

I knew or knew of several former Nazis and Nazi sympathizers in SRF. The most conspicuous was a lay member whom I will not name but knew personally; she was a former Nazi spy. I worked with a delightful individual of German origin who used to regale me with stories of the heroic exploits of the notorious Totenkopf (“Deathhead”) division. His opinions on blacks paralleled those he no doubt held of Jews but knew better than to express. However, another German devotee I once worked with assured me that the Holocaust was a Zionist conspiracy (an idea he picked up from the controversial British historian David Irving).

I am not saying that this makes SRF a Nazi front, or that these people should be held accountable for the crimes of Hitler (though they clearly supported and even assisted his aims; not one of them, to the best of my knowledge, ever renounced or denounced them). What I am saying is that they found something very familiar and comforting in SRF. What was that something? First and foremost, the personality cult of the supreme leader; second, the insistence on unquestioning obedience to that leader and his representatives; third, the quasi-military regimentation of the SRF lifestyle, whether in or out of the ashram; fourth, the utopian character of SRF’s mission. Yogananda, his teachings, and his followers would usher in a new age of peace and spirituality, they would serve as harbingers of the Millennium, the New Jerusalem. Christian eschatology was given a Hindu twist, even as Hitler had proclaimed the advent of a thousand-year Reich. Despite the nightmarish character of fascism, we must never forget that it was, like communism, fundamentally utopian in its orientation. So is SRF. Here was conquest of a spiritual kind, but conquest just the same, a movement that promised to “sweep the world.”

Psychdev accuses Member108 of special pleading, but this is not correct. Special pleading is a fallacy, a fallacy being a fundamentally unsound argument. Exaggeration is not a fallacy. To say that the moon is larger than any planet or that all cats are black is exaggeration and untrue, but not fallacious. However, to say that the earth is the only planet in the universe with life and that I know this because I have unique ways of perceiving scientific truth that are not available to others, is special pleading. The argument is predicated on pleading a special set of circumstances that are beyond the bounds of rational argument. “God works in mysterious ways” is the most common example of special pleading. Such an argument, in the context of science, at least, is unacceptable. If you want a good introduction to the various kinds of fallacies, I strongly recommend the chapter “Baloney Detection Kit” in Carl Sagan’s Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark.”

I point out, yet again, that Yogananda was an early fan of Mussolini. Elsewhere I have alluded to the connection between Hindu nationalism, of which PY was obviously and understandably an exponent, and European fascism. I expatiate on that here to lend greater credence to Member108’s fundamentally accurate assessment of the SRF movement. This fascinating byway of history is fleshed out in a valuable, scholarly, yet readable book by Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke entitled Black Sun: Aryan Cults, Esoteric Nazism, and the Politics of Identity. The chapter “Savitri Devi and the Hitler Avatar” is especially germane. Savitri Devi (1905-82) was a French woman of Greek ancestry who loathed England and worshiped Hitler (this same author has written an entire biography of Devi, which makes for fascinating reading). She traveled to India in the 30s and became enamored of it, remaining there for many years. There she tapped into the reservoir of fascist sympathy and helped to enlarge it. How many of you reading this are aware that many prominent Hindu nationalists in the 1930s and early 40s were vociferous in their support of Hitler and Mussolini? These included Srimat Swami Satyananda and his Hindu Mission, which engaged her as a lecturer, and the Hindu Mahasabha Party. In fact, all these considered Hitler an avatar and placed images of him on their altars, alongside traditional Hindu deities. Bizarre, yes; inexplicable, no. Remember that Nazi ideology, steeped in pseudo-science and mythohistory, glorified the Aryan race. India, which was overrun by the Aryans in the 2nd millennium BC, identified itself as the modern heartland of that race (though Hitler privately thought that the Aryans in India had lost their racial purity in the sea of dark-skinned peoples they encountered there). Having been humiliated by centuries of foreign domination, Indian nationalists were invigorated and inspired by the notion that they were, in fact, racially superior and would sit at the head of the table in the Nazi utopia of Aryan world mastery. The other obvious attraction can be simply expressed as follows: the enemy of my enemy is my friend. These same nationalists believed that Hitler would demolish the British Empire and break their chains of bondage (naively assuming, of course, that Hitler had no intention of simply stealing the Imperial key and leaving the lock and chains firmly in place). So, racial glorification and national liberation were the chief attractions among many Hindu nationalists to Nazism. Yogananda was not immune to these lures, though I am not suggesting he was anti-Semitic or condoned the hatred and genocide of Nazism. In fact, many of his views diverged sharply from those of these nationalists and of fascism in general.

Consider, too, that Nazism sprouted in the fertile soil of Southern Europe (Italy, Bavaria, Austria, and Spain), dominated as it was by Roman Catholicism. The direct link between Catholicism and fascism is as obvious as it is controversial (Catholics, understandably, don’t like the idea). Does not SRF resemble, on a very small scale, the Catholic church? Didn’t Tara Mata state (according to another thread on this site) that it was high time that SRF came to resemble Catholicism? And what other Christian sect strongly resembles Catholicism and SRF? If you answered Mormonism, I wouldn’t argue with you. There you have the same mythohistory, the same regimentation and secretive cultish practices, the same lack of transparency, and the same administrative set-up: a self-appointed oligarchy exercises absolute control over church affairs and derives its legitimacy from being the inheritors of the founder’s mantle. Need I repeat that the Bad Ladies are former Mormons?

Member108 may have exaggerated, but there is one other mitigating circumstance that lends merit to his/her argument. SRF has no real power or influence in society (yes, folks, once you get outside of S. Calif., few people have ever heard of it or could care less about it). By contrast, the Germany that Hitler seized control of was a world leader in its technology, science, industry, and military prowess. Despite the Depression and the nation’s weakened state, it took the Nazis only a short time to turn German fortunes completely around and lay the groundwork for a world war they almost won! Now, use your imagination. What would the Bad Ladies do if they had access to THAT kind of power? Do you really think it’s completely out of the question that they MIGHT ship undesirables off to concentration camps, as a kind of “housecleaning”? Do you think it unlikely that they would abolish democracy and individual liberties and attempt to regiment society along theocratic lines, exercising control over every aspect of a person’s life? And do you think it impossible that, once in the possession of an enormous arsenal of weapons, they wouldn’t give vent to their circle-the-wagons paranoia by lashing out militarily at their foes, real and imagined, rather than merely suing them in court? I can easily imagine that there would be secret police, a ministry of propaganda, and retribution for any deviation from orthodoxy or defiance of authority. And, as was the case in Nazi Germany, there would be inefficiency and chaotic organization on a colossal scale, exacerbated by the caprices and whims of “enlightened” dictators in the possession of minimal education and reflexively suspicious of anyone smarter or more capable than they.

I don’t know if they would do any of this, but I think it more than merely possible, if not altogether likely. Member108 is stating, with some indignation, what he/she believes SRF is hypothetically capable of, even if it hasn’t had (and thankfully never will have) the opportunity to prove the point. In this sense, I think Member108 is on very solid ground and that his/her objections deserve more respectful and serious consideration than they have been given until now.

Edited by: Gitano no divino at: 12/6/02 3:26:36 pm
psychdev
Registered User
(12/3/02 4:10 pm)
 Re: SRF and Fascism
Gitano no Divino: There's a tiny problem with your statement. The Waffen SS by the end of the war included elderly men, young boys, and Russian prisoners of war-- anyone the Nazi's could draft or force to work. They were just cannon-fodder, mostly victems. For example, here's an exerpt from the Diary of Manfred Schroeder, a young boy of 16 at the time (and a hater of the Nazi party):

"...I don't have any figures, but my best guess is that towards the end of the war roughly half the Waffen SS, if not more, were draftees."

You do Nityananda a great disservice, verging on slander, by not qualifying your statement with this information. It's very unfair.

Likewise your story of a "delightful German" who "regaled" you with stores of the Totenkopf regiment is subject to a whole lot of interpretation. You imply that the individual thought killing was amusing, and that he was a supporter of Hitler. I doubt that very much.

I know a little bit about German history. I went to university in Goettingen and speak fluent German (I'm ethnically British and Scandinavian, born in the U.S.). You've taken several facts out of context and made them into a caricature. It's pretty disgusting. I can only hope it was done out of ignorance and not with conscious intent.

Edited by: psychdev at: 12/3/02 5:05:45 pm
psychdev
Registered User
(12/3/02 4:16 pm)
 Re: SRF and Fascism
<<What would the Bad Ladies do if they had access to THAT kind of power? Do you really think it’s completely out of the question that they MIGHT ship undesirables off to concentration camps, as a kind of “housecleaning”? >>

You are completely, certifiably out of your mind. (I will provide the written certificate if you like).

Edited by: psychdev at: 12/3/02 4:22:51 pm
soulcircle
Registered User
(12/3/02 5:56 pm)
 i see no humor anywhere
now i will read psychdev with a grain of salt or more likely not at all
to make a counter point to you Gitano no divino. she has more viciously slandered you, in a form. most personal, than she accuses you of

i don't know how you feel about your sanity psychdev
what you say is what you are
_________
knock knock
who's there
icy
icy insanity everywhere
______________________________



below, i am paraphrasing the last post's of psychdev's that i will read.......

.....
[in a work that many cherish, as i myself will always to some extent there is a fly in the ointment]

someone is approaching a workable understanding of a ( or most accurately, THE) bias within yoganada and SRF, one that has colored its whole hostory, the painful truth
.....not able to stomach this, let's destroy the message carrier!!!!!!!!

as the profession with profound and subtle insight into human psyche, I will steal you, even of any ounce, of humanity Gitano no divino,
i, apologizer for the faithful, will demonstate for all the srf walrus board to see .....what yogananda and srf has given birth too, an American attitude, nazi=flavored, and be their henchman extraordinaire,

cringe!, writhe!, burn! in character assassination, personal and swift!!, Gitano no divino
i, psychdev on the behalf of yogananda and god-realized faye wright, darling of her mom, will raise in pseudo psychology, in pseudo power and "....................."
__________________________________

Gitaono no divino, decades ago, one of the better thinkers i know personally since i was eight, having even lived in a duplex with him, and having practiced zen with his family....well ,this thinker pointed out to me ,what apparently was, the take on yogananda among some of the intelligensia in this country, that yogananda was fatally marred by his sympathy for the italian, who we laid down american blood opposing
________________________

we neglect "the best medicine" at our own peril....
let's always keep humor a little closer at hand psychdev....

bye psychdev, on an important level we love you and touch your feet,....... some of your words we won't embrace or even read,
"icy, no humor anywhere" aka soulcirlce

Edited by: soulcircle at: 12/3/02 6:04:38 pm
psychdev
Registered User
(12/3/02 6:50 pm)
 Re: i see no humor anywhere
soulcircle: Anyone who suggests that an organization is willing, under any circumstances (even hypothetical), to send people to Nazi concentration camps, should expect a strong reaction. This is a truely remarkable accusation.

You're right, though, to take my last posting with a grain a salt (and maybe a small dash of cayanne and bit of basil). It was really a short-hand way of saying, give me a frigging BREAK. Nobody at SRF is interested in sending people to concentration camps--even if they had the power. Sounds like the same hysterical accusations I've heard in the reverse direction regarding K and Ananda.

Edited by: psychdev at: 12/3/02 6:54:47 pm
soulcircle
Registered User
(12/4/02 2:30 am)
 accusing or calling a spade a spade
psychdev,

you write:
Quote:
soulcircle: Anyone who suggests that an organization is willing, under any circumstances (even hypothetical), to send people to Nazi concentration camps, should expect a strong reaction. This is a truely remarkable accusation.


heehee....are you in for a possible surprise someday

when i ran into the "round em up and gas em" comments by monks......it was while driving monks to and fro from the airport to the chapel at richmond over the years

when going through berkeley, california...monks, more than a couple times became visibly agitated, in front of me, of unknown or liberal political persuasion, and not a close associate or friend......... in front of me monks were willing to suggest the need to "round up and gas em"

[for anyone abroad, or beyond berkeley's reputation.....and i doubt that many even on the otherside of the world, have missed berkeley's rabble rousing, question authority antics carried on for decades]

that you haven't run into this is not surprising, psychdev
....... over the years these trips in total spanned many hours......out of the public eye, except for my presence

you may continue with your present feelings

you may run into this personally yourself in some future setting

you may listen closely to others experiences, even, or especially, the most outrageous

_________

in terms of finding common ground among the thousands of "guests" reading the walrus board, and the hundred or so registered users......i suggest this for those of us who aren't present nuns or monks

laughing, none of us are speakers at convocation, none of us are leading kriya ceremonies, speaking at centers and chapels, or writing in the magazine, etc

laughing, all of us, you and i, psychdev are playing second fiddle
and there is humor in that in some ways i want that first violin seat in the orchestra, in some ways i want to be the conductor, in some ways i want to be king of the hill here in the walrus board,

laughing, hey i will come out of the closet, i should be cast as god when we have another big bang and begin anew
oh i am, green with envy that vishwu can play the wonderful role that he does

laughing, that daya and satya can stroll among mother center sunny areas and shade, and sit in the garden of daya's nice private digs, doesn't anybody realize i am so smart, funny, spiritual, no one knows i am the god that people should flock around when i appear at the buenaventure hotel

laughing, i am the most important person in this or any world, and i am getting impatient to play first fiddle
i think the world will go to the devil entirely if i am not leader, composer, a master with millions of devotees
laughing, can't you at least see this obvious fact, psychdev and divine mother

laughing, give me the helm while things can still be made right
you do agree, yes?......you do agree psychdev?

psychdev, be our queen!!! long live psychdev

guests, you many guests, you are ready to be crowned aren't you, great spirtual realms are at the verge of opening up in this world, whole peaceful countries will gloriously come to being in this dwapara age
guests of the walrus board
god realized guests of the walrus board
your coronation is at hand, lead us forward in harmony and beauty
your rule as first fiddlers is mapped out in the either
this day is prophesied that babaji with come assigning you first chair in all the orchestra sections in god's new world

soulcircle

Edited by: soulcircle at: 12/4/02 2:39:44 am
KS
Registered User
(12/4/02 6:27 am)
 Re: Concentration Camps
Quote:
PSYCHDEV message:
You're right, though, to take my last posting with a grain a salt (and maybe a small dash of cayenne and bit of basil). It was really a short-hand way of saying, give me a frigging BREAK. Nobody at SRF is interested in sending people to concentration camps--even if they had the power. Sounds like the same hysterical accusations I've heard in the reverse direction regarding K and Ananda.

You might be surprised what people are capable of, especially in the name of God (rather, in the name of their egos). Remember the Spanish Inquisition? There are numerous stories through history of religious people going to extremes in defense of their church or ideals.

You are right in that SRF is not in danger to the extent that anyone there would need to take drastic measures to defend it so of course there is no the drive to develop the capability to send people to their death. No one is saying that kind of environment exists. The concept of analogy seems to elude people in this thread. No one is saying these sweet head quarters nuns and employees are even considering that sort of thing.

What insiders have seen over and over and over is the bad ladies and their lieutenants ability to discard people. SRF easily marginalizes and turns people out at their own convenience if they have no use of them or feel threatened. Walrus readers have read numerous stories about this. They send monks off to Phoenix or Hollywood, Hidden Valley or Cherry Valley, and fire or lay off employees who try to blow the whistle on problems. This happens in smaller ways by pulling people off projects or not giving them raises for 5 years. This pathetic way of dealing with people shows the character of the organization the bad ladies have created.

If you don’t understand how common this is you are probably not understanding the true character of the bad ladies and the depth of the problem at the top.

In addition the original discussion was of the Hitler youth and that cult like mind control process. No mention of concentration camps.

Edited by: KS at: 12/4/02 6:31:45 am
psychdev
Registered User
(12/4/02 7:54 am)
 Re: Concentration Camps
KS: <<The concept of analogy seems to elude people in this thread. No one is saying these sweet head quarters nuns and employees are even considering that sort of thing.>>

You twist my words. I objected to the suggestion that SRF would send people to Nazi concentration camps IF THEY HAD THE POWER. That's not an analogy. It is not even a metaphor. It's a clear statement about what SRF would do if they had the power. Your own posting indicates that you take it literally ("who knows what people are capable of").

If you don't agree, try this on for size:

"KS would bomb mother center IF he/she could obtain bomb-making equipment."

I don't think that's an analogy--or if it's an analogy, it's easily misinterpreted.

Now let's make the statement more realistic, similar to GD' posting:

"KS might willingly send SRF nuns to the gas chambers if she had the power".

Suppose that were posted in a public place, without qualification? You might feel a bit outraged and offended. Especially if the author explained, "it's just an analogy".

You also resort to the argument that, if I don't agree with you, I "don't understand the depth of the problem". This is completely circular and self-serving: It assumes the very question at issue. Obviously, the "depth of the problem" is exactly the question we are trying to decide.

And finally, you state that the original question was the use of a "Hitler Youth". HELLO? That was several posts earlier. I was responding to the concentration camp posting. That's an extreme and unreasonable claim and deserves a response.

I sense minds which need the high-octane rhetoric of "Nazis" and "Spanish Inquisition" and "Hitler Youth" to avoid a real, factual *discussion* of times, places and persons. The really sad thing is that there are, indeed, real problems at SRF IMHO, and this kind of talk does nothing to address them.
It just polarizes and inflames people--as the previous 5 postings have so amply proved. One person's opinion.

Edited by: psychdev at: 12/4/02 11:38:20 am
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