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MastersChela
Registered User
(11/21/02 3:32 pm)
Reply 		Please, show at least A LITTLE respect
chrisparis,

I found your post totally off color and utterly inappropriate. It is one thing to criticize Master's organization, which seems to deserve the criticism. It may also be within the limits of some (who knew him) to criticize Master himself (though it seems there are few who would), however, I cannot immagine why one would need to participate in an outright MOCKERY of our beloved Guru...

Some here have been hurt by SRF, and this forum is a wonderful place to get those feelings and ideas forward, and also a wonderful place to discuss what might be done to fix the situation. However, I do not see why being hurt by SRF causes some to turn on Master as well. If he is not your Guru, fine... Go find out who IS your Guru and follow him/her to God. But do not mock MY Guru. The majority of people here on this site still consider Master theirs, and while we might be able to discuss with an open mind the nature of the man and if he had childern or was "fully Self-Realized," I for one will not put up with being mocked like this is grade school, because if you mock Master, then you're also mocking everyone who follows him. We are all adults here, let us PLEASE act like it!

TheHolySinner
Registered User
(11/21/02 5:07 pm)
Reply 		Durga Mata's Book
OK....NOW WHAT?

Helen M. Luke (I think) once said, "The brighter the light the darker the shadow."


Edited by: TheHolySinner at: 11/21/02 10:32:07 pm
username
Registered User
(11/21/02 10:53 pm)
Reply 		Re: post
That post didn't bother me at all. I still don't understand who Yogananda was supposed to be channeling. How can you channel "divine Mother" ? Is this like channeling "god the father" or "the holy ghost"? Why didn't Yogananda just ask Divine Mother to appear in the flesh and tell whoever, whatever they needed to know?

chrisparis
Registered User
(11/22/02 7:23 am)
Reply 		Re: post
Dear MastersChela,
I will repeat exactly what I meant in my earlier post. The notion that PY would indulge himself in the show of channelling the Divine Mother is repulsive. In the Autobiography Sri Yukteswarji remarks, when PY returns from his unapproved trip to the Himalayas, that he isn't displeased with PY's actions, because to be displeased is to assume that he has expectations of other people's behavior. Being one with ALL, how can he be pleased or displeased?
Now, use your head, dear M, and think this through. Can the servant be MORE than the Master? SRFLongago remarks that PY's Divine Mother was chastizing the nuns, probably for not fulfilling their work quotas. If PY's guru, in his unity with the Divine, could be neither pleased nor displeased by the obedience or lack thereof of others, can you really suppose that "Divine Mother" would pipe her voice through anyone for not doing enough work? Does this make sense to you?! It can only resolve to this supposition: If the story is true, then Paramhansa Yogananda was exercising illusion on his credulous disciples. That would be fraud, or charlatanism. You pick the word.
As to your overall post. Well, excuuuse me, if I have rankled you! I can see you would have made a fine Dominican inquisitor, furling your brow in wrath at the mere suggestion of mockery at something that is so patently absurd.
This board is the province of, among others, dissenters, MastersChela. We have discussed lots of aspects of Kriya yoga's past in the US, including the probability that the man who brought it here was something less than the celibate monastic that he CLAIMED to be. If the air here is too thick for you, perhaps you should haul your humorless little fanny to another one of the gazzillions of Websites available to those who want to osculate to the posteriors of PY, Kriyananda, Dayamata, Anandamoy, etc. etc.. If you had spent even twenty minutes looking at past posts on THIS site, you would have found plenty more to be PO'd about than my last post.
Toodle Loo, MastersChela, and to all the rest of you as well,my best regards. Goodbye.

Edited by: chrisparis at: 11/22/02 7:27:17 am
redpurusha
Registered User
(11/22/02 9:24 am)
Reply 		Re: post
Dear chrisparis,

I just read the quote by Ma Durga by srflongago, and it describes how God (as Divine Mother) talks with Yogananda to discipline some of the monastics. If true, he's not channeling some soul, but is communing with God, something he did claim to do (remember God Talks With Arjuna). Yogananda wanted his followers to not only pray to God, but have Him respond -talk to us back.

You refer to Sri Yukteswar as not expecting anything and therefore having Divine Mother 'expect' things is non-sense, but you forget how much of a disciplinarian Yukteswar was and how often he chastised his disciples, especially Yogananda in his training. Read the chapter about Yogananda's training in his guru's ashram, consequently very few disciples stayed for long.

The "probability that the man who brought it (kriya) here was something less than the celibate monastic that he CLAIMED to be" is at best just that -a probability- like the probability of the aging pope being a child maelestor himself. Indeed "the notion that PY would indulge himself in the show of channelling the Divine Mother is repulsive," and not only that, its also a stupid notion, and false.
The notion that people indulge themselves in the show of mocking Yogananda with baseless accusations is just as repulsive, but it happens every now and then.

chrisparis
Registered User
(11/22/02 11:19 am)
Reply 		Re: post
Sri Yukteswar chastized his disciples, but NOWHERE do we read that he did so in the persona of the Divine Mother, Siva, Jesus, or any other Cosmic Entity.
And THAT, Redpurusha, is the difference. If a Master chooses to chastise a disciple, well and good. It happens all the time. But there is a world of difference between that and doing so claiming to be the Divine.
What is objectionable isn't the chastisement of the disciples, it is the claim that it is really GOD who is doing it. This should be transparently obvious. And thank you for bringing up the quote from DurgaMa. I intended to put it in my previous, and forgot to. It is sufficient evidence that the event DID take place.
As to PY's celibacy, the accusation has been suffiently confirmed to me, privately, for me to be satisfied that this is also true.
I had not intended to post to this site again, but I find your deliberate obfuscation of the issue too much to ignore.

Gitano no divino
Registered User
(11/22/02 11:21 am)
Reply 		Ridicule
Chrisparis, please don´t go! Your irreverence is desperately needed here as a prophylaxis against credulity. I think srflongago, who is the soul of tact and tends to understate things, made his point abundantly clear to all who have ears to hear and a willingness to listen closely: Yogananda´s supposed channeling was a trick he used to manipulate gullible followers. Let us not continue to allow such individuals to manipulate us through chicanery. Don´t buy books by supposed channels.

Frankly, anyone who resorts to the tactics, stunts, tricks, and cons Yogananda did--while claiming to be in constant communion with god--deserves serious critical scrutiny. Having revealed the scam for what it is, i.e., pious fraud, we can be excused for lapsing into ridicule. The sad truth is, however, that in the end we, and not Yogananda, are the butt of the joke, because we were foolish enough to believe the outlandish claims made by him and his followers.

He is not MY beloved guru anymore, and if such pronouncements pain some readers here, I suggest that this board may not be for them. It certainly is for Chrisparis and others like him because this is the ONLY PLACE we can go. If you want to ooooh and ahhhhh over the gooroo, I´m sure the SRF website would be delighted to accommodate you.

Edited by: Gitano no divino at: 11/25/02 10:35:41 am
redpurusha
Registered User
(11/22/02 11:46 am)
Reply 		Re: Ridicule
gitano no divino & chrisparis,

You guys are entitled to your opinion, however flawed it may be.

"Those using this board are loyal devotees of Paramahansa Yogananda. The board is not intended to be a source of criticism of his message or life. While it is often critical of those currently in leadership positions within Self Realization Fellowship, this should not reflect on the many giving loving service to Master. " -Walrus frontpage

I have assurance of my own, in secret -of Yogananda's legitimacy as a Master, as many others do -numerous accounts were posted recently here even. The saddest thing is living a life unfulfilled and being mad at the world, not realizing heavenly joy within. It happens all the time. Maybe Yogananda isn't meant to be your guru, to each his own dharma.

Edited by: redpurusha at: 11/22/02 12:12:11 pm
TheHolySinner
Registered User
(11/22/02 12:11 pm)
Reply 		Chrisparis
Dear Chris,

Thank you for your last post: you put into words what I could not. The Sri Yukteswarji quote from AY was a masterful touch. I too can not bring myself to believe Divine Mother or what ever name you want to put on God could ever be pleased or displease by our behavior.

I asked whether the prune story was true because after reading PY "Channeling" Divine Mother, well with the insanity of it all you might very well have been repeating an excerpt of the book....

I am here seeking the truth about PY. The Dura Mata quote was just more than I expected to hear. Not writing the lessons him self seemed minor. I was able to seperate PY from SRF and come to a conclusion that the corruption began after his death, but now I see that the Matas are only imitating their Master. If there is anything worse than the "Divine Mother Channeling" farce, well lay it on me now so I can get past the surprises once and for all.

So PLEASE Chris come back we need you and your sense of humor to make this all palatable. I wish you didn't delete the prune story it was very good.

Edited by: TheHolySinner at: 11/22/02 12:44:15 pm
MastersChela
Registered User
(11/22/02 1:30 pm)
Reply 		Where is this going?
Calling Master a charlatan, where is this discussion going? I was under the assumption that this forum was meant to be a guiding light... A place where LIKE MINDED individuals could discuss the problems of SRF and how they might be solved,as well as to help those who've been injured (emotionally, mentally or spiriutally) by SRF to recover their faith in spirituality.

I'm just plain tired of this. What are you accomplishing by calling one of the greats a charlatan? I know literally hundreds of people who've been transformed by Yoganandaji's consciousness; people who've found that through meditation and Kriya that they're better able to cope with the world around them, that there's truly a place for them among the ranks of the saints, if only they can persevere.

For myself alone, Master has shown himself to me 3 times. These moments that I sat at the lotus feet of my Guru, I remembered what REAL love is. I was reminded of where I'm going and that my true home is floating in Divine Mother's bossom. I am just your average married guy, fighting against the desires of the world, trying to gain a foothold on the clifface of the spiritual path... But Yogananda has thrown me a secured rope from the top, and even if my foot should slip from the face of the mountain, his rope is tied round my waist and I do not fall. I KNOW, Chris, that he was most certainly not a charlatan. He was, he IS a true Guru.

The question I ask is this: What ARE you accomplishing by saying these things on this forum? Are you helping your fellow brothers and sisters advance on the spiritual path, or are you dragging them deeper into delusion? I recognize that SRF may be rightly accused of driving people AWAY from their Guru or even the spiritual path alltogether, but what good does it do to HELP that process? By attacking Master's credibility, you aren't helping anyone.

If you truly think that Yogananda was a charlatan, perhaps you should look deeper into his writings (if you're afraid of the tainting of SRF published works, there's always those published by Crystal Clarity, Amrita, or the works of his other independent disciples), or perhaps meditate and pray to Divine Mother to send your true Guru to you, pray to her to make you ready to recive the one that can lead you to The Goal.

==============================================
I can see you would have made a fine Dominican inquisitor, furling your brow in wrath at the mere suggestion of mockery at something that is so patently absurd.
==============================================

Now you're attacking ME personally. Why? Jesus once said "He who has never sinned, let him throw the first stone." What makes you such a perfect person to judge Master, and now me, so harshly? Are you a Master? I am not, and therefore, I do not feel that it is my place to judge the actions of a Master. Yogananda did many things that those of less realization cannot begin to understand. We cannot comprehend the motives of one speaking from the viewpoint of Samadhi. I find myself here being ridiculed for believing in the Truth of my Guru's words... I started posting on this site because I believed that what was needed was a voice of stability and of conviction. I intend to play that role, Chris, to the best of my abilities. I will not be shaken in my trust and my committment to m Guru. Because he is mine. If he is not yours, that is fine, but you will not conivnce me to walk your path, because it is yours, not mine. I will meditate this afternoon on what you have said, and ask Divine Mother to help me understand you better. I do not wish to develp a confrontational relationship with anyone on this board. I want to understand where you are coming from, even if I don't agree with you.

Blessings, brother.
Jonathan

srflongago
Registered User
(11/22/02 2:53 pm)
Reply 		Re: Where is this going?
This board is not a board of like-minded people.

Some have it as a given that Yoganada was perfect and that anything that indicates anything else must therefore be wrong. That is, facts should always be reinterpreted to support his perfectness, however strained the quality of mercy involved. Some have it as a given that the sisters are perfect and that anything that indicates anything else must therefore be wrong. These are the true believers,to whom facts are not relevant.


Others have concluded that SRF tradition with Faye Wright in charge is fatally flawed, and not intended to lead to liberation, but to control and subjugation of will.

Others have concluded that the faults that Yogananda exhibited in many contexts over the years disqualifies him as a guru and therefore disqualifies his organization, since there are no independent spiritual great souls there. They feel cheated by him and by the organization.

Others, including myself, regard him as an accomplished Yoga master and leader, but as having no supernatural abilities and quite evident faults.

Each person can determine for themselves what Yogananda and/or the organization has done for them and their friends.

So it is hard to say what the likemindedness might be. Someone else may articulate it.

chrisparis
Registered User
(11/22/02 3:05 pm)
Reply 		Re: Where is this going?
To All,
I apologize. I do not need to hammer the beliefs of another into dust to prove myself right.

Edited by: chrisparis at: 11/25/02 2:17:23 pm
TheHolySinner
Registered User
(11/22/02 3:44 pm)
Reply 		Dear Brother Jonathan
I came to this board because I was tormented by the incongruities with SRF teachings: what Yogananda really said and didn't say.
Your faith is steadfast and brings you comfort. So take it and leave this site. I mean this in the kindest way possible. Most of us here have been hurt in one way or another by SRF and you don't sound like one of the wounded. This site can only make you unhappy and worse shake your faith.
I don't believe it is the purpose of anybody here to undermine Yogananda, but sometimes the truth does.
I don't believe that anybody would be wasting their time posting here if there wasn't still some unresolved pain in their hearts.
So be grateful Brother Jonathan that you are not one of the betrayed.
Go, God Bless You!

Edited by: TheHolySinner at: 11/22/02 3:46:06 pm
MastersChela
Registered User
(11/22/02 3:45 pm)
Reply 		Re: Likemindedness
srflongago,

Thanks once again for your words. I enjoy reading what you have to say on these pages, and I have a growing respect for your position.

I understand where you're coming from. Perhaps I do not understand the truth of where this bbs lies now. I understand the concepts for which it was started, and I guess that's where I'm opperating from. However, on the internet, forums and chat rooms tend to take on a life of their own quite separate from the original intentions of the originator... We can see that this phenomenon is quite present in this thread alone, which I started to talk about Yogananda Returns but which has grown into an entirely different discussion. Personally, I love this aspect of the internet, and I enjoy the nuances of human personality and emotion that it tends to bring out. That being said, I appologize if I characterized this group as something it's not. I am a newcomer, and I have yet to get a grasp on the vibrations of this group.

I do feel, however, that I must say this; If we have strayed from the original purpose of this bbs, which was:

"Those using this board are loyal devotees of Paramahansa Yogananda. The board is not intended to be a source of criticism of his message or life. While it is often critical of those currently in leadership positions within Self Realization Fellowship, this should not reflect on the many giving loving service to Master. "

then what is the puropse of the board? Is it to simply complain? For in truth, getting one's pain and sufferings out in the open CAN be a positive thing; just talking about things can liberate us from our sufferings... However, if we dwell too much on that which is behind us, we risk becoming bogged down in the pain and the past hurt, and then the talking about it becomes a hinderence to our spiritual development. I am a newcomer. This is not my board yet... I am still trying to find myself here. This is a question to those long-time posters, those who have made this place what it currently is. I am not placing any value judgements on what this bbs is. In truth, I feel that there's a lot of healing here, but I think there's some unhealthy dwelling as well. These are just my personal thoughts and oppinions... take them for whatever you wish.

Edited by: MastersChela at: 11/22/02 3:47:10 pm
SonofSpirit
Registered User
(11/23/02 10:13 am)
Reply 		Re: Where is this going?
Do you consider yourself to be a spiritual person? If so, what are your tenets of spirituality? What are your personal 10 commandments? Realize how you think and feel. Know that nothing can come out of you which is not already in you. Restated: All that you express, all that you think, all that you say, all that you do is you expressing yourself. How can you express true friendship unless you already are friend? How can you express true joy and happiness unless you are already joy and happiness? How can you express true hope and optimism unless you already are hope and optimism? How is it possible to express true faith and devotion if you are not already faith and devotion? How can you express true hate and anger if you are not already hate and anger?

If you want a clue concerning where you are as a person, where you are spiritually, then turn your critical eye away from others so that you may look at yourself. Do this, and then you will know where you are as a person, and where you stand spiritually.

He who is most in pain is he who most deserves my love and compassion. Know that such persons have it. Know too that attacks on true devotees, on true disciples, on true believers, on true keepers of faith, know that such attacks are harmless to Redpurusha or Devotee1970 or MastersChela or anyone else, for I have set my intention into the ether that all attacks shall come to me. I accept all attacks upon the faithful. Know that I will pass such attacks on as healing energy, as love, as compassion to their source. Shoot your arrows at my heart and spare the others, for I am your biggest target.

Easyrose. Listen. Truth is for he who is ready to receive it. Spiritually speaking, truth is not: was Master this or that. Truth is: what are you, and what do you understand, and what do you exude, and how free and full is your heart? The answers to these questions is the truth your reality. And that is the only reality that matters. It is not what you think or believe about someone else. The truth lies within you and it validity is that which you make of it.

Let he who has ears proclaim himself, just as he who is deaf will proclaim himself. Know that I have contained in every comment, in every word, in every syllable I have contained my love for each who reads. You have but to drink of my love for you, for it is freely given. Friend. Lover. SoS.

TheHolySinner
Registered User
(11/23/02 3:00 pm)
Reply 		Re: Where is this going?
SonOfSpirit,

I'm not sure what your focus is? Are you saying you are an overflowing fountian of love willing to take on the slings and arrows of all of us? OH, Please.....

"Where is this Going?" is a GOOD question, I would say it's circling the drain, going down, down, down, gone....

One more good thread lost to childish bickering. Come back Chridparis and MasterChela, let us all present our views without emotional outbursts: you know, like grown-ups.

SonofSpirit
Registered User
(11/23/02 4:40 pm)
Reply 		Re: Where is this going?
Yes.

TheHolySinner
Registered User
(11/23/02 7:39 pm)
Reply 		Re: Where is this going?
SonOfSpirit,

You are too funny, I really am rolling on the floor laughing, while my Boston Terror is typing this message.

"Yes" to what part?

Because if you can take my karma I would be more than willing to give it too you.

Forever obliging,
HolySinner

wholetruth
Registered User
(11/23/02 9:13 pm)
Reply 		Re: Where is this going?
srflongago:

How do you view the concept of someone having a guru-disciple relationship with Yogananda fifty years after his death if he had no "supernatural abilities?" Do you think it is possible? I'm talking of the ones born after his death who never even knew him.

srflongago
Registered User
(11/24/02 3:34 am)
Reply 		Re: Where is this going?
You are asking for part of my own belief system. Here is a little.

I hold to the tradition from which Lahiri Mahasay stems.

Lahiri is the one from whom Yogananda's own Guru, Sriyukteswar derived his knowledge and authority, and Sriyuktwswar was the one Yogananda derived his knowledge and authority for spreading Kriya in the West.

A GURU leads from darkness into light (toward enlightenment) by setting an example with his or her own life.

According to the Gita and the consequent Vedantic tradition, on which Kriya Yoga rests, the true Guru has given up ALL desire for the fruits of action. So the true GURU does not attempt to control the choice of the path to enlightenment of the student. The enlightenment of the truth seeker unfolds by individual choice according to the inner nature of that truth seeker. Raja Yoga helps find a true path through intellect, Hatha Yoga through the body sheath, Karma Yoga through love and compassion. A true path leads to unity of self with the universal consciousness of collective mankind and the universe.

The Guru is a guide, not a master. You are the master of your fate.

So I am very traditional.

Concerning your question as to what I think about whether anyone can channel with the dead, or now be a personal disciple Yogananda, I take this to be one of many clouds of Maya (self-delusion, wish-fulfillment) which have to raised to find a path to unity of self with the universal consciousness. Personality (Yogananda's or anyone else's) is part of Maya, and has to be passed by to achieve unity of self and universal consciousness.This too is a quite traditional position.

But others have different views. I do not denigrate anyone's personal experiences. I just do not share their interpretations of them. I am not a supernaturalist.

Edited by: srflongago at: 11/24/02 3:52:53 am
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