Marshall Govindan--Babaji's Kriya Yoga

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SRF Walrus > Non-SRF Teachings and Ideals > Marshall Govindan--Babaji's Kriya Yoga
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etzchaim Registered User (8/13/03 5:34 am) Reply	Re: Regarding Prem's claim Ringbearer, I agree. I had a different experience concerning Govindans group, because my main difficulty was with the idea of signing anything that made me promise to not teach Kriya. I've never taught it to anyone, and I may never do so, but there is something very strange about the control and type of 'legality' that that implies and there may actually be a time when I feel it is necessary to teach the techniques to someone. I don't know yet, but I couldn't sign such a thing. The book that I bought from them is basic hatha yoga and I really prefer my own teachers system to Govindans. Claims are meaningless to me. My take on this is that people will learn from whoever they have the karma to learn from. I do not think it is appropriate for people on a spiritual path to spend their time focused on the faults of others, and I've learned some very wise things from people who I never expected to be taught by. I don't think that Govindan is doing anything 'criminal' and it's paranoia to think he is. Those who are drawn to him are actually learning things and they will either stay or leave according to their own needs. His need to make his claims is part of the culture we have developed, all of us, together. It appears to me that the need for people to 'validate' their spiritual levels is fed by peoples need to have only the 'perfect' teacher and that those who do not have the most pure, the most perfect and the most high, are being cheated. In my opinion, we should all be simply helping each other where we can and viewing each other as peers, forgetting the ego trips that lead us, myself included, to feel that our spiritual experiences, our teachers and our personal paths are 'superior' to others. My Guru is linked to me, but I consider him a wise friend who I can learn from and who can assist me on various levels, not a supernatural being in contact with supernatural beings. He may be, but only the fact that I can learn from him at the level that I am at is what is important to me. I prefer to read science fiction, rather than expect it to occur in my life. I remember, once, in a discipleship meeting, one of the older disciples was upset because he believed that G. Kriyananda could enlighten him if G.K. really wanted to, but he was holding back. This made the disciple frustrated and angry. I was much younger then, and even more vocal than I am now, so I interupted the conversation they were having and said, very adamantly, as is my nature, "The only person who can enlighten you is YOU". I still believe that. Even the greatest of Gurus can only guide you along the way and provide a little push here and there, even if that little push is what sends you over into realization. The work that allows the Guru to do that is done by the disciple, and by the disciple alone. When we do the work, over the many life times we live, we get the karma for that push. People will be drawn to the teacher they are ready for, and if they have a negative experience, or they are drawn to someone who is functioning under an illusion, consciously or not, they will eventually learn something and either rise above it or leave. It is better for us to help each other to learn discernment than it is to compare supernatural powers and experiences as a 'sign' of validity. As I get older, it occurs to me quite frequently that the desire for enlightenment is as much an obstacle in finding enlightenment as the base desires for shiny baubles are. That could simply be where I'm at right now, but it might help others to consider that even good desires may lead us to certain forms of gullability and expectations that are damaging. I've written somewhere on the Walrus before that there is a Zen Koan that informs us that there was a monk who became enlightened by the sound of two pebbles hitting each other as he swept his walkway. That says quite a lot about Guru's to me. Chava (just to help, that ch is pronounced very much like a German 'ch' sound) Edited by: etzchaim at: 8/13/03 5:38 am
prssmd Registered User (8/15/03 1:59 pm) Reply	Re: . SwamiPrem writes: ------------ "While my Guru adviced me to leave this forum quietly, I feel that I need to set that advice aside even just for a moment to reply a post by hunben a.k.a. prssmd which slipped my vision prior to the posting of his open letter. "Nobody calls Govindan 'Baba'! He is just 'Govindan'. That post was very funny, as it was all invented 'our Baba this..', 'our Baba that.." --------------- I applaud SwamiPrem for having the courage to disregard his guru's advice. This shows that SwamiPrem has a mind of his own. When we abandon our wills to our gurus, we no longer have minds of our own, and become no better than machines or animals. I hate to see people blindly obey their gurus, even though, occasionally, people make spiritual progress DESPITE having abandoned their own wills. When that happens, all sorts of dangerous tragedies or near-tragedies start, like people risking their lives (a) handling extremely dangerous bulls that are known to put people's lives at risk (the guru giving the orders in this case was Yogi Ramaiah) or (b) going through active battlefields and war zones in Russia to retrieve a forgotten item (the guru giving the orders in this case was Gurdjieff). Also (c) people committing mass suicide, and (d) people following Adolph Hitler. Etc. On the other hand, we need these gurus--people who are further advanced spiritually than we are--to guide us. As a general rule, we need to follow their advice to advance on the path. But we should use our heads also. But SwamiPrem should be more careful. He refers to "hunben a.k.a. prssmd." I am prssmd and I have nothing to do with hunben and I didn't write what SwamiPrem attributes to me. SwamiPrem, hunben is NOT also known as prssmd. But this is the sort of mistake anyone could make. In fact, I myself make this sort of mistake from time to time. What is not forgivable is for SwamiPrem to make the FOLLOWING sort of mistake. He writes: ------------------------ "Marshall Govindan always ride in the name of Lahiri Mahasaya and Paramhansa Yogananda to connect his imaginary Babaji into the authentic Mahavatar Babaji of their lineage." ------------------------- How would SwamiPrem KNOW whether the Babaji of Marshall Govindan is different from the Babaji of Lahiri Mahasaya and Paramhansa Yogananda? Where's his evidence? If he has no evidence, it is a serious mistake for SwamiPrem to make such statements. Perhaps one and the same Babaji has appeared to many different people and given them many different techniques. There's no more reason to think that Babaji has given only one person one small handful of techniques than there is to think that the New Testament or the Koran contains all there is to know in the spiritual field, and that anything outside of one of these scriptures is bogus. By the way, where's this website with Govindan's sadhana exercises posted? I can't find it.
prssmd Registered User (8/15/03 2:22 pm) Reply	Yogi Ramaiah, Marshall Govindan, & Zen Master Dogen Borg108 writes: --------- "On the negative side, usually one becomes a teacher only when one's Guru authorizes him to do so. Marshall [Govindan] left Yogi Ramaiah and decided on his own that he should become a teacher" ---------- Permanent slavery to your human guru is a serious error. I don't think there's anything wrong with leaving your guru at some point, or ignoring his advice in some cases. You might outgrow your guru. You might advance to a point where you know more than your guru. You might discover that your guru is incompetent, or that your guru is lying to you or holding you back. Ramakrishna said your shouldn't teach until God tells you to. Perhaps God told Govindan to begin teaching. We don't know for sure. But when people feel called by God to teach, I think it's fine for them to begin teaching. If someone starts teaching and his students get some spiritual benefits from the teaching, then the teacher is contributing positively to the spiritual evolution of humanity, and he shouldn't be criticized for teaching. Govindan seems to have reached a point where he could no longer blindly and slavishly follow his teacher, Ramaiah. In a related matter, Govindan also doesn't seem to believe in surrendering all your own views. He encourages his students to study other traditions. (Isn't that refreshing.) I don't think he agrees with the great Zen Buddhist Master Dogen, who in the Shobogenzo Zuimonki quoted with approval the proverb, "Unless you empty your mind, you cannot accept good advice." (Dogen went on to say that if you have personal views "even to a small degree, the words of the Master will not enter [your] ears.") Edited by: prssmd at: 8/20/03 9:34 am
prssmd Registered User (8/16/03 3:06 am) Reply	Re: Posting Kriya Yoga Techniques Online ringbearer7 writes: ---------- "I don't really have a very positive impression of G.M. due to the allegations he made against Yoganandaji in W.I.E. and other claims he has made. However, I have to say that in my opinion Prem's alleged post and challenge from G.M.'s followers is clearly a fraud - and a very poor one at that. It looks to me that Prem just constructed a "challenge" from G.M.'s followers in order to give himself an excuse for posting another path's spiritual techniques on the web. If this is the case then that is very sad indeed." ------------ I think we should examine why kriya teachers such as Marshall Govindan, Yogi Ramaiah, etc., want to keep their techniques secret. Is it truly in the best interests of spiritual seekers worldwide that these techniques be kept secret? Why do these teachers make their students sign a pledge not to reveal these techniques? One answer that I've heard is that when someone learns these techniques, she should learn them from a competent teacher, and not from just anyone, who might or might not be doing the technique properly, or might teach it incorrectly. But what better way is there to make sure that students do the technique properly than to PUBLISH it. If it is in writing, authored by a competent teacher, then we can refer to that writing when we practice meditation and kriya yoga, and we'll be more certain that we're doing the technique correctly than if we merely hear a talk given by a teacher and furiously scramble to take down in our notebooks all that is said. I've learned many techniques in this very inefficient manner of taking notes during a lecture, and I must say that I'm unsure whether I received the techniques correctly. In fact, when I asked questions later, I found that I wasn't doing some of the techniques correctly. Also, it took months to get a reply from the authorized teachers (who are quite busy), explaining how to do the techniques, so during all that time, I was doing them incorrectly. I wish they were written up and published so that this problem could be avoided. Another answer that I've heard is that practicing these techniques could be dangerous, so to avoid these dangers, the teacher should personally tell the students such things as not to practice the technique more than a certain number of times. But that advice could be published along with the technique. All sorts of things can be dangerous, but we don't require that people be orally told that they are dangerous--we simply warn them in writing. For example, we warn purchasers of cigarettes in writing that this product may cause cancer. If you are in some Asian countries, e.g., India or Thailand, where people read a lot less than they do in the West, then perhaps people need to be told, orally, about the potential dangers af practicing too many kriyas at one sitting, but in the U.S. or Europe, written warnings should suffice. A third answer that I've heard is that when you're initiated, you receive some spiritual energy from the teacher which helps the meditation process take place more effectively. But most people don't experience this transmission. They don't feel anything happening. An unexperienced transmission is not a transmission at all. Unless you experience it, you haven't received anything. And some teachers who are able to transmit during an initiation choose, for some mysterious reason, not to transmit on some occasions when they initiate people. Other authorized initiators (in established lineages) are simply incapable of transmitting spiritual energy because they are really just beginners themselves, yet they perform initiations. On the other hand, people should be encouraged to sit with those who are capable of transmitting spiritual force, because such a transmission MAY occur, and this is an extremely valuable experience for those of us who have been fortunate enough to experience it. I don't believe there is a valid reason to require the personal, physical presence of the initiator when a student learns a kriya yoga technique, for the reasons I've given above--usually the transmission doesn't occur, even when the teacher is physically present. If it did occur most of the time when an initiation takes place, then most students would be motivated to continue the practice on their own because they would have experienced something profound, whereas in fact most aren't. Some initiators will initiate 20 people during one seminar, only to discover six months later that only one or two of these 20 is still practicing the techniques! If these techniques were published online, many more people would have access to them, and probably humanity would be uplifted through these techniques at a much faster rate than at present. We shouldn't be content with such answers as, "Babaji told me to make all my students promise to keep these techniques secret." Anyone can justify anything they do that way. You can say, "Babaji told me to charge 25 thousand dollars for a weekend initiation," or "Babaji told me to charge Japanese people $2 for an initiation, Malaysians $57, Americans $208, and British $300, for the exact same series of classes," and there's no way to disprove the statement. We won't be satisfied with such answers if we have minds of our own. If Babaji told teachers of kriya yoga to make their students promise to keep the techniques secret, then Babaji must have had a good reason, and then we should ask what that reason IS rather than take it on faith--otherwise, how do we know that the teacher isn't lying? We should ask those who teach kriya yoga to come up with genuine, valid reasons for requiring that the techniques be kept secret.
prssmd Registered User (8/16/03 3:38 am) Reply	Kriya Yoga Techniques Online, part two [Swami Satchidananda] In fact, on the issue of publishing Kriya Yoga Techniques online, or in a book, the late Swami Satchidananda of Yogaville, Virginia, and Coimbatore, Tamil Nadu, India, who passed away in 2002, published a technique that is rather like kriya yoga in his pamphlet, "Meditation" (Integral Yoga Publications, 1975), pp. 12-13: "Let the air flow in with the Om sound and when it comes out, let it say Shanti....Let the Om breath go deep to strike at the base of the spine, and then with Shanti let it roll upward through the spine to the crown of the head. Thus you will be feeling the air, or the breath, going in and out or downward and upward along the spine without its even flowing outside....If you carefully observe the path along the spine, you will be able to feel a very mild heat, a gentle warmth, which is very pleasant. Try not to miss that; put the entire attention on it."
username Registered User (8/16/03 7:24 am) Reply	Re: Kriya Yoga Techniques Online, part two [Swami Satchidana No wonder SRF doesn't allow members to read other teachers, then they would know that they are being ripped off. The above is essentially kriya without years of manipulation, money requests etc!
MastersChela Registered User (8/22/03 11:30 pm) Reply	RE: Kriya online I, personally, take my Kriya vow VERY seriously. I take every promise I make seriously. I promised not to reveal the technique of Kriya, so I won't... It's as simple as that for me. I also think that the entire point of Kriya Yoga is being missed here... The whole point of Kriya ISN'T the technique. Yes, there are other paths using very similar meditation techniques. It isn't that SRF has "ripped you off"... The sensations we feel in the spine are a part of what we are... They're always there. Kriya is about becoming conscious of those feelings, just as Sri Satchidananda's technique probably is. The pont of Kriya (and also the point of recieving it from a teacher IN PERSON) is to connect with the line of teachers that has brought Kriya to the world. When we recieve the Kriya Initiation, we aren't recieving it from Marshal Govindan, from Swami whoeverananda... We're getting it from GOD, and through that technique, we're attempting to tune ourselves to the divine flow which has come down to us THROUGH A LINE OF TEACHERS. Babaji is "the fountainhead of Kriya Yoga," and is therefore at the tip of all these lines of teachers, be it through Lahiri's line, Govindan's line, or whoever's line... When we perform Kriya Yoga, we're connecting with Babaji, and with our Guru (whoever (s)he is). As we connect with Babaji, and through Him, with God, we are attuning our own vibration with that of God, and bringing ourselves more into alignment with Divine Will... So... Why the secrecy, if these techniques are already "out there?" Well, to me, it seems obvious: If we recieve these techniques before we are ready to attune ourselves with God's Will, before we are ready to surrender to the Guru, then we will see them as just meaningless ritual, as "just a technique" like any other. They're only significant as long as we allow them to be. They're only powerful because they help us connect to God. We can do 1008 Kriyas every day, but if we're not doing them with devotion, if we're not using them to attune ourselves to the Guru and God, then we might as well be watching "Friends...." Well, perhaps that's a bit of an overstatement, but you get my drift. To quote "prssmd" from another thread: *Quote:* I applaud SwamiPrem for having the courage to disregard his guru's advice. This shows that SwamiPrem has a mind of his own. When we abandon our wills to our gurus, we no longer have minds of our own, and become no better than machines or animals. I hate to see people blindly obey their gurus, even though, occasionally, people make spiritual progress DESPITE having abandoned their own wills. I think this is a DANGEROUS attitude to have, and it is 100% against the attitude we should have as Kriya Yogis. If you don't want to obey your Guru (or if you don't think (s)he IS your Guru), then you should leave him and find your true Guru. When you find your true Guru, do EVERYTHING (s)he says till you find God. This notion that "having a mind of your own" is helpful on the spiritual path is dangerous. Having a "mind of your own" is HAVING AN UNCHECKED EGO. That's what Ego is... Our "own" mind. I don't think people understand that the ENTIRE GOAL OF YOGA is to abandon "mind" and attune our will totally with God's will. If we have an enlightened Guru, or one who is sincerely seeking enlightenment, then to do what they say is ALWAYS to do what God wants us to do. If our Guru has a "mind of his own" (at least a mind separate from God's or focused on selfish interests), then he shouldn't be our Guru. Plain and simple... These minds and opinions that you value so much are preciecely what's keeping you from knowing God, preciecely what's keeping you from feeling His blessings in your Kriya Initiations or in your practice. I'm a firm believer that if the RECIEVER of the Initiation is honestly seeking toward God, then God can work through the person giving the initiation no matter what his level of Self-Realization. The relationship is ultimately between yourself and the Fountainhead of Kriya, who is one and the same with God. As for doing "Elijia's Kriya Yoga" or "Jesus' Kriya Yoga"... WHY NOT?! God doesn't care what form you Love Him in, as long as you Love Him. If you're more attracted to these forms than to Babaji, then do your Kriyas with devotion to Elijia or to Jesus. Since Jesus is in the Self-Realization line of Gurus, and since (according to Yoganandaji) Elijia (John the Baptist) was the Guru of Jesus in Christ's previous incarnation as Elisha, then Elijia and Jesus are a part of the Kriya line of Gurus anyway... What is Kriya?: Loving God in the deepest part of your own being (the part that is undifferentiated with Him). Why are the techniques important?: They help us get to that place. Why should we keep Kriya a secret?: Because without that understanding of inner attunement, Kriya is useless... It's like having a plane ticket without having a pilot for the plane. OK... I've said enough. Time for Sadhana... Edited by: MastersChela at: 8/23/03 9:17 am
prssmd Registered User (8/25/03 5:31 am) Reply	Re: RE: Kriya online Well, I wish I could agree with MastersChela but the problem is that no guru is infallible and also there is so much abuse going on. Why, take Yogi Ramaiah, for instance, who is still living and abusing people, or the late Gurdjieff, or the late Rajneesh/Osho--these people, although they may be or have been "enlightened," ENDANGERED the lives of their students! It's often thought, incorrectly, that enlightened people never make mistakes, or never lie or cheat people. Moreover, it's very difficult to tell who is enlightened. (Was Yogananda enlightened? How would we know for sure? What does "enlightenment" even mean? What's the test? Psychic powers?) Even people with great psychic powers can nevertheless be abusive. The best policy is to hold every teacher to the highest standards of conduct, and not to believe everything they say. Fortunately, the autocratic, teacher-as-God guru-worship idea is on its way out. Americans and Europeans are too intelligent to tolerate that destructive, dangerous relic of Asian spirituality, which derives from societies in which people don't learn to think, but only to obey. If you spend a few years working in certain Asian countries, you'll see what I mean. In some cases, American teachers--not only Asians or Moslem Russians--can set themselves up as objects of worship (e.g., Da Avabhasa) or in other ways abuse their authority. A good example of intelligent American refusal to tolerate autocratic leadership which goes astray occurred when the members of the San Francisco Zen Center kicked out Richard Baker Roshi (who at least never set himself up as an object of worship or endangered his students' lives). The typical educated Westerner is intelligent enough to understand the distinction between ego and having "a mind of one's own." One must, of course, carefully examine what one is taught to make sure that one's rejection of part of a teaching, in case one chooses to reject it, is not due to ego. Edited by: prssmd at: 9/7/03 11:51 pm
etzchaim Registered User (8/25/03 7:20 am) Reply	Re: RE: Kriya online MastersChela, what about the story about Babaji telling a disciple to jump off a cliff, and when he did, Babaji said something like, 'I don't want disciples like that'. I think that there is more to being a disciple, and more to growing up spiritually, then the simple 'do what your Guru tells you to do' rule. I try to follow what my Guru says, but if I disagree with him, I do what I believe to be correct, even if I'm wrong. I have an attunement to God, and I would rather learn about that and gain experience, then pedantically follow my Guru - who I fully admit has more wisdom than me, at the moment. My relationship with my Guru is not based on blind obedience. I'm not a door mat and would not advise anyone to behave like one, but rather to grow and learn about life and their true Selves in the way that is true to them. If someone is into blind obedience, my first instinct would be to teach them more independence. My opposition to signing Govindans 'contract' is that, first, Govidan is not my Guru, and does not have the authority over me to prevent me from teaching the technique, and I do not want to give him that authority. Second, I'll teach the technique only if it's clear that the person I'm teaching it to has the same relationship to me as I have to my Guru. I don't plan on becoming a Guru (there are several of G. Kriyanandas disciples who also have disciples, so it's wouldn't be out of order) but it may happen despite my aversion to it. Should my Guru tell me to initiate people, or it becomes clear and not an ego fantasy, that I should start and I had signed the contract with Govindan, I would break the promise, come hell or high water. Of the three initiations I've had of First Kriya, I have never been asked to sign anything. Never. It's a completely foreign concept to me, and smacks of lack of trust and of someone who is not being careful in who he/she initiates. Yogananda did mass initiations. Did everyone sign a pledge before they received the technique? I'm not aware of the history as well as others might be. Etzchaim
MastersChela Registered User (8/25/03 7:53 am) Reply	Re: RE: Kriya online *Quote:* MastersChela, what about the story about Babaji telling a disciple to jump off a cliff, and when he did, Babaji said something like, 'I don't want disciples like that'. That's not what happened at all. The man came to Babaji, and asked to be one of His disciples. Babaji said "You aren't ready." The man said "But I've been looking for you so long. If I cannot be your disciple, I might as well jump off this cliff, for my life is over." Babaji said, "Do it then." So the man did. Then, Babaji told a couple of His other disciples to go retrieve the man's mangled body from the bottom of the cliff. When they had returned, and had laid the man out in front of the Master, Babaji touched him on the heart, and he was restored. As he opened his eyes and looked into the face of his Guru, Babaji said, "NOW you are ready to be my disciple." I'm glad you brought this story up, because it illustrates what I'm trying to say perfectly. The point of the story is that until we care about nothing but finding God, till Nothing but the Guru's will is important to us, then we aren't even ready to begin on the path. It's about total submission to the Will of God.
MastersChela Registered User (8/25/03 7:59 am) Reply	Signing away Etz, I've talked with a friend of mine, and it seems that your own particular lineage of Yoganandaji's path is somewhat different from most of the others. Most of us consider Yogananda to be our Guru, not His diciples or their disciples. I'm not saying this is wrong for you to do (it's actullay MORE like the Indian way of thinking). This also applies to the concept of who should initiate others into Kriya. Your line has many more initiators than most of the other lines. I'm not critquing this, just pointiong out the differences. I too, have never had to SIGN anything when I took a Kriya initation. I HAVE, however, taken a verbal vow not to reveal the Kriya technique with anyone unless authorized by one of my initiators. Signing such a document wouldn't be a LEGALLY binding agreement (at least I wouldn't think so), but it's just a more "modern" version of the Kriya Vow, which Lahiri, Yukeshwar, and Yogananda ALL made their Kriya students take.
etzchaim Registered User (8/25/03 9:33 am) Reply	Re: Signing away MastersChela, thanks for correcting me on the story. I didn't remember it. Even now, I don't remember hearing that Babaji eventually accepted him. I would have just come back later and asked again. I don't think people should be jumping off cliffs to prove their dedication to the Guru. I sure wouldn't be telling people it is a good idea to harm yourself in order to be 'ready' to have a Guru and now I really have a difficult time accepting the story. I don't think it was told to me that way. Dedication to the path of enlightenment is one thing, becoming completely emotionally distraught and committing suicide is quite another. I don't respect the man who did that and I quess I don't understand how Babaji could be considered wise for doing this - unless he felt that the man would simply get reborn and do it over again until the stupidity of it dawned on him so he wanted to stop him from committing further violence. I see the suicide disciple as too attached, not more dedicated. I say, I'm limited in comprehension, eh? And, yes, my lineage is different from yours. In my limitation that I'm noticing today, I cannot for the life of me figure out why you all don't have Gurus on the physical plane. My Guru from my last life did not incarnate, so I have a different one. This is the way it has been in India for what seems forever. I don't understand, but there is much that I don't understand and I don't think it matters too much in the end... However, I get the feeling that many people believe having a non-incarnate version of Yogananda is superior to having an incarnate Guru who is at least honest about not being a fully enlightened Avatar. I think that is quite silly and misguided but you all have your ways and I have mine. My Guru is no longer accepting disciples, so I guess it's better to attach oneself to the lineage through a non-incarnated member, than to have none at all. Etz Edited by: etzchaim at: 8/25/03 10:01 am
etzchaim Registered User (8/25/03 9:41 am) Reply	Re: Jumps, cliffs, violence Isn't the fact that Babaji replied "Do it then", um, Babaji telling someone to jump off a cliff? Honestly, I don't think Babaji accepted him for his blind obedience. He was going to jump anyway. Perhaps he simply burned off a really difficult piece of karma, perhaps even the karma of having so much desire for a Guru such as Babaji. It seems to me to have very little to do with obedience. I have both the original Autobiography and the most recent one. I'll check tonight if it's the same in both, which it might be, but I still don't see this as a tale of blind obedience. It seems to be more about the man's attachment Karma than anything. If Yogananda meant it as blind obedience, I think that's a really dangerous thing to do and it's no wonder that SRF has gone the way it has. Every one is following the leader, and the leader may just tell you to commit suicide, so you better do or you will risk being disloyal to Yogananda... Doesn't sit too well with me. Etz Edited by: etzchaim at: 8/25/03 10:48 am
MastersChela Registered User (8/25/03 11:00 am) Reply	about surrender It's not about "obidence", but about surrender. And it's surrender to GOD, not to a human being with human faliings. Babaji's not like our other Gurus. Babaji IS God in the same way that Krishna or Jesus or Moses ARE God. The story isn't about Babaji telling the guy to committ sucide; you're right about that. The story is about the guy's preparedness to give everything over to God--in the form of Babaji, his Guru. The man wanted God so much, that he felt nothing else mattered, and that if he couldn't be with Babaji (God, in this story), then he might as well be dead. His jumping served two goals. First, it showed Babaji that he WAS committed to finding God, and that nothing else mattered to him. Second, it showed the man, and the other disciples, that when we put our eveything in God, He can do ANYTHING for us. At least that's how I see the story.
etzchaim Registered User (8/25/03 12:48 pm) Reply	Re: a violent kind of surrender OK, I can see that, for you, this is something that would make sense, but why did the 'surrender' have to be so violent? What would that man have to be working out by committing the suicide? Clearly something changed in him between the jump and being smashed at the bottom of the cliff and Babaji accepted and is perhaps still accepting disciples who don't all kill themselves out of intense desire to be with him. I would not do damage to a body that God made because of a desire to be with God. It's just too much drama. God is all around us. I would rather meditate. In my opinion, it would have been better for him to be less emotionally desirous, the emotion that his suicide burned away, and more open to finding out why Babaji wouldn't accept him in his frenetically desirous state. Surrender could also have meant accepting that he needed to go through a rejection from Babaji and remain untouched by it, ultimately by burning the attachment karma off through further meditation and returning to ask Babaji again when he was more balanced, rather than burn it off violently in a suicide. Either way, the karma is burned off. One is extremely violent and the stuff of tales of the gods and one is a slower, possibly less of a page turner, but more balanced approach, that would probably have not found it's way into a book which is essentially a collection of wondrous stories about saints. Perhaps the Bhakti path requires that sort of emotional attachment and the drama it brings. It's not the way I would choose, but each person has to find their own way. To me, an attachment to God is still an attachment, and emotionality is a hindrance that gets people caught up in their desires so that they often do things that are quite damaging to themselves and others. I guess I interpret the story as being one where the suicide was the result of the mans insane desire and when he had burned it off, he was ready to finally learn from Babaji. I mean, God is in everything. Why just project God onto one person? I mean no disrespect to Babaji, but we are all God. Babaji has realized it fully, we have not. We should move towards that. It doesn't seem to me that Babaji reacted emotionally at all. There is a big difference in the way the two 'types', if you will, are shown. I don't think that surrender necessarily means 'giving up everything for God' in an intense burnout of unfulfulled angst. We would never have heard the story, though, if the man surrendered by saying, 'OK, I accept what you have said, I need to meditate more so that when I ask again I will be ready'. He couldn't, perhaps, because of his intense need, but I have no doubt that many people have done just that. Walked off and meditated, fought their internal demons, burnt off a lot of Karma and came back and were accepted. Etz Edited by: etzchaim at: 8/25/03 12:58 pm
SatoriElixir Registered User (8/25/03 3:07 pm) Reply	Re: RE: Kriya online I agree with you Masterschela. Until people can surrender their EGOS completely they won't be able to do whatever the Guru tells them.
SatoriElixir Registered User (8/25/03 3:32 pm) Reply	Re: Signing away Etz, a "true guru" is "living" no matter what. He doesn't have to be in physical form. Paramahansa Yogananda appeared to me in a vision and initiated me into Kriya Yoga. It was as real as this waking life and I definitely felt the energy transmission through his hands. It was also revealed that I knew Him in my past life.
stermejo Registered User (8/25/03 5:40 pm) Reply	Sign on Okay kids, I guess I'll have to throw in MY take on the "jumping off cliff" Story. AY may use the words "mangled body," I don't know. Ever played "telephone?" Well here goes: When the guy met Babaji, he was flooded with Love feeling Babaji would never tell him to do anything harmful. So, when Babaji said "Do it!" he did. Thing is that Babaji knew that below the "cliff" was a small precipiece and the man's fall would only be a few feet down. The man didn't know this and simply lost consciousness on impact. A few strokes to the chest and he was awake again. I was told that St Augustine of Hippo said it, "God doesn't multiply miracles. " They just aren't necessary. Now you can ask how Jesus multiplied the loaves and fishes or changed the water to wine:-) I love those two.
soulcircle Registered User (8/25/03 9:23 pm) Reply	how many sheep....how few lions Hi Guests and All, Until people can surrender their EGOS completely they won't be able to do whatever the Guru tells them. so we have plenty of sheep within srf and many other organizations' folds, plugged into and molded....some say enslaved one person who has posted in here has asked a rhetorical question: How many 30 years devotees do you find who are: full of volition and life and vibrant bold ...invincible original and creative warm and open they broke the mold when they made the individual full of outstanding leadership and fearless and unconstrained? seems that we have surrendered and become second class srf citizens and even most monastics are outside the closed secret fear driven inner power circle each devotee so unique following their heart intimately personal relationships, whether it be: to close family and friends, or to themselves and guru while one may surrender the other may live untouched by fear and inspire the world to throw off enslaving chains or individually to ......dare I say this...throw off low self-esteem and guilt no two snowflakes are alike circle Edited by: soulcircle at: 8/25/03 9:45 pm
etzchaim Registered User (8/26/03 5:13 am) Reply	Re: Signing away Satori, my guru from my last life as appeared to me and brought to a state where I absolutely knew everything - for about 5 seconds, I will always remember that potential, though and am determined to achieve it on my own, with the help of the lineage. None of us die when we 'die', we all stay 'alive', in the Astral plane. The more conscious one dies, the more conscious one will be in the Astral. My Guru's Guru is still in communication with his wife and several people in his line. I have no issue with the idea of an Astral Guru, but Yogic tradition, and the Kriya tradition in India, and my own lineages, emphasize and incarnate Guru. That is not to say that there are not Astral Gurus. I was merely pointing out the bias I see here that implies that an Astral Guru is superior to a physical Guru. None of you appear to have any idea of the level that my Guru and his Guru are on. I do know. The really silly part of the situation is, is that when someone from another lineage is 'presented' who has been initiated in the Astral, it's usually called into question. I find that quite strange and hypocritical. I was once told here by one of the more manic devotees that I was obviously not ready for a true Guru because I had a physical one. The arrogance and blatant silliness of that in the face of the fact that all members of our lineage have had physically manifested Guru is quite striking. Etzchaim

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