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etzchaim Registered User (9/2/03 9:20 am) Reply	Re: Babaji is ALL Dawnrays, it's far more believable that Jesus appeared to Babaji than it is that Jesus became a Yogi in his life on earth. If I were Jesus, I'd be really depressed about what happened to his teachings and would, by any means necessary, try to bring about a correction. I'm wondering, though, why, when Christians where corrupting the teachings, did he not do anything about it? When they began murdering huge numbers of non-Christians and Christians who differed from them, starting, lets say with the Visigoths, to choose a rather nasty group, in the 7th or 8th century, who were later themselves declared to be 'Heretics' by a later Christian group, why didn't he do something about that? By the time Babaji sent Yogananda, there were fewer purges, aside from the Holocaust, but that wasn't prevented either. Just when did the Christians forget the inner techniques? It appears to have been rather early on, even before the fall of Rome! Doesn't it beg the question? Why didn't Jesus do something about it a long, long time ago and in a way that would reach the actual Christians who need the teachings? Sending a polytheist from India may not be the way to influence the religious Christians! They are even further entrenched into their closed system and are becoming more entrenched as the New Age movement continues. Fundamentalist Christianity doesn't appear to be a shrinking movement, by any means and they are not going to be influenced by an idol worshipping (that would be THEIR view) Swami from India! I also question Yoganandas statement about Jesus being the person who was to guide the West and then states that the West had to develop in logic and reason. Just what about Jesus teachings is going to help with the development of logic and reason? It seems to me that we are far more indepted to Aristotle than to Jesus for the path we where "required to take". I'm not questioning Yogananda's dedication and his efforts to reach people, including Hitler, who would have considered him non only a non Aryan, but not even fully human, since Indians are dark skinned, but I am questioning the idea of taking everything that a person, even a great and highly developed person such as Yogananda, says in a literal fashion and not using the developments the West HAS excelled in. What is wrong with combining the East and the West by NOT sacrificing the logic and reason that was developed, at the same time that we fully incorporate the inner developments that the East excelled at? It doesn't seem to me that there should be a sacrifice of either. The two sides can be balanced without the repression or ignorance of the other. Devils Advocate, Etz Edited by: etzchaim at: 9/2/03 9:51 am
dawnrays Registered User (9/2/03 11:21 am) Reply	Re: Babaji is ALL Well, on the one hand you say he is "just another Jewish mystic" and one who has done a considerable amount of "damage" to boot. In this line of thinking, he is in your eyes just another Jewish martyr who was crucified (a low and shameful death, at the time) and even abandoned by most of his friends and followers for a time. You either take comfort in the belief in him or you don't! Many do and many don't. It is alright if you don't, but then you cannot (on the other hand) hold "just another Jewish" mystic responsible for all of humanities' ills. If he has no power to good, then why heap all the burdens on him? Many Jewish matyrs were crucified as well as many non-Jewish matyrs. It was the cruel and low choice of punishment and death in those low times (and they were the lowest). The holocaust is of course the supreme modern example of mechanized brutality, but before even the Jewish scorge they were "euthinizing" the mentally ill and the retarded. Later on of course gays, gypsies, intellectuals and persons of non-aryan racial backgrounds were included. Of course, anyone thought to be a political enemy or suspected of aiding or hiding Jews were also sent to the camps. Many took this risk anyway, including whole countries such as Holland and Denmark, who resisted Nazi influence and refused to give up their Jews. I guess, on the positive side, I do believe we have made progress since then. Even the Nazi's took great pains to hide the true nature and purpose of the camps from the general German population for many years. They even put out propaganda films to show how well the Jews were being treated. Most of the world was not aware as to the true nature of this horror until the camps were opened and liberated after the war. Hitler also, it is interesting to note, was extremely "pure" in the physical sense (a non-smoking/drinking vegetarian who allegedly did not even sleep with his "lover" Eva Braun). He was also a decorated war hero in wwI. He never once visited his own camps. I think all of the Masters, including Jesus, are active always in humanity and we do not know of all of his previous or subsequent incarnations. My feelings are that humanity as a whole has improved since the Roman Times, since the Inquisition (and of course, human brutality and lack of compassion is by no means limited to the Christian/Jewish world!) It continues to improve (with major and minor setbacks of course, the current political situation in this country being one, IMO). I think you cannot hold one man responsible for the rest of humanities actions. Persons like Yogananda and Jesus are there to simply set guide lines and standards. If there is anything they taught, it's spiritual independence and a healthy questioning mind as well as a disregard for certain formalities and rituals. Lastly of course, a love for God and humanity and non violent solutions to our problems. In a way, both of their great gifts to us were to live thier lives out in the open, with the same temptations and obstacles that every person has to face at one time or another. dawnrays Edited by: dawnrays at: 9/2/03 11:31 am
rachelcorrie Registered User (9/2/03 1:25 pm) Reply	The Eagle Peers Over the Cliff and Chasm The eagle peers throught the fog of myth and history. The ideologue, such as Paramahansa, speaks with dead certainity and untruth of Jesus' missing 18 years. Dan Brown, "the wild-eyed liar," an author of The Davinci Code, speaks of Jesus' years after surviving the "Cross." The spinners of tales finds billions who love a "good" story. Stranger than fiction, and unknown by all, the truth teases and eludes the eagle's vision into chasms of belief and swirling fogs of dreams. The Bible, no eagle at all, presents the literal, the word of God, the faith many profess, none follow, and The dream goes on.
dawnrays Registered User (9/2/03 5:04 pm) Reply	Re: The Eagle Peers Over the Cliff and Chasm Dead certainty and untruth? I don't get you. Not believing and dismissing as lies and untruths every bit of information and realization (not to mention their sources) that comes before you, is no better than being the gullible Christian who takes everything literally. However, this person is better off than you as his strange and bhakti gullibility is based on love, however twisted, and the desire to know and feel the truth. Eventually, even reading the Bible literally will expose truths or lead you to where they are. Sarcasm and the desire to tear down beautiful beings like Jesus and Yogananda, don't. Seeing ugliness and deceit in every person and situation is nothing to be proud of and is certainly no indication of intellectual superiority. What could be more of a miracle than the fact that his ugly and tragic death is now looked on as something beautiful and holy? Yogananda's life was also that way. It is your loss that you seem to be unable to appreciate it. God, unlike most people, accepts, loves and cherishes all forms of devotion from his children. Yes, even the "stupid" kind from stupid and literal Christians who don't know any better. dawnrays Edited by: dawnrays at: 9/3/03 5:44 am
rachelcorrie Registered User (9/3/03 5:47 am) Reply	you are certanly right God accepts our devotion in all its forms and unconditionally, and without delay, welcomes all into self realization. This we witness daily. First in our SRF President and then in every humble Kriyaban. We can't count the numbers of fully realized women and men.
dawnrays Registered User (9/3/03 6:39 am) Reply	Re: you are certanly right Hey, If you're looking hard enough, you can find flaws and imperfections in every situation. That's not the point. If you're looking to become self-realized (whatever that means to you) then that's definitely not the point. If you're not, then why worry about a lack of realization in others? Would you know it if you saw it? Anybody who won't stand up for their guru, doesn't deserve to have one. Nobody needs to appoligize or make excuses for having Yogananda as a guru. Finding fault with Jesus Christ is just really beyond the pale, as far as I'm concerned. I think it's been pretty well established that daya mata is an incompetent president, so thank you for that revelation, that's really news. Any other inspiring and uplifting comments? dawnrays
etzchaim Registered User (9/3/03 7:02 am) Reply	Re: The Eagle Peers Over the Cliff and Chasm Dawnrays, you seem to think I'm blaming Jesus, but to me it's more like an effort to remove him from the pedestal that peoples legends and myths have made him. I truly do not think he intended to produce the 'religion' that his followers created. Those who refer to a book as the 'true word of God' are also "idealogues". We could call them "idolaters of the Book", so to speak, because those words are the result of years of idealizing, shaping and creation by followers with an agenda, whether they are conscious of it or not. Much of it is Myth and Legend and therefore the carrier of a truth that can teach us. Personalities can be role models and guides, but I truly, with all my heart, do not think that we should 'rely' on the "Masters", or those who take their words, or the words of a holy book, literally and unquestioningly, to improve the world or to tell us what is real and what isn't. Often, it seems to me, what we hear and see from higher sources is a symbol or a "method" by which we may be able to tap into the God Wisdom within us, but we get stuck in the 'literalness' of the symbol and don't go any further, never realizing that we are dealing with a symbol or a method I find that it is often our "literalness" that causes the problems. We think that we are "this" or that God is "this" or Truth is "this" and that becomes a standard by which everything else can be measured. While that is good and making judgments is necessary and good, it can also produce hatred and ignorance. So we take symbols and make them absolutes and solid realities and fail to be able to use them as tools to awaken ourselves. Etz
dawnrays Registered User (9/3/03 8:33 am) Reply	Re: The Eagle Peers Over the Cliff and Chasm I pretty much agree with that but I don't think that Yogananda was an idealogue in any negative sense of the word (and I feel like it is being used as an insult, here). I think he was doing people a great service by shedding some of his realization on the Bible. Many people do take it literally, for lack of thier own realization or enlightened souls to explain it to them. Jesus often taught in stories and parables because that's all that people were capable of understanding at the time. He was telling stories to children. "When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child...". You can of course eventually figure out most things for yourself, but I for one am glad that Master took this on. I am honestly suprised that he isn't critisized more often for it (as defensive as we are about Christianity in this country). I think it was a very brave thing to do. He is way ahead of his time and it will take most people a while to catch up with him. He is as ahead of his time as Jesus was in his time. I think in order to appreciate Jesus' role in your life, you have to believe in him and if you don't you won't. It's an individual choice. Even many people who don't believe in him in the Christian sense of the word, appreciate and recognize his contributions to humanity, though. I don't think you can state that you basically don't believe he was anything more than one of the many of the Jewish mystics who were wandering around Israel at the time (and there were others, some also claiming to be the Messiah) and then expect him to "do something" about the Visgoths, the Inquistion and the Holocaust and every other Christianity related tragedy in history. Do you understand what you're saying? You are holding him responsible for things that you on the other hand refuse to give him any power to have any influence over. If you take comfort in his sacrifice and presence, he is always doing something for you on the inner level. Not all Christians have an inner life (this is what I mean by believing, not just saying it) but many of them do and I have respect for that. I used to complain and complain to Master about the Catholic church. "How is it allowed to exist and get away with this?" I would ask Master. Even though I was raised Catholic, my brother is a priest and I have been Catholic for many past incarnations. He revealed to me through this constant bitching that the world would have been much, much worse had it not been for the church. Christianity has done some wonderful things and has been a life saver for many people. I believe the appearance of a great soul like Yogananda, actually having the nerve to stand up and interpret the Bible, is a sign that we are moving beyond the literal and ready to grow up. What, are people going to complain about this now? After all the problems we have had with people taking the Bible literally? I don't mind talking to you because you are a friend and I understand how a Jew might have issues with Christianity. I don't get cryptic and loaded comments like "dead certainty and untruth". I wonder where a person like that is coming from or if they know or if they are just a troll or what. dawnrays Edited by: dawnrays at: 9/3/03 9:59 am
etzchaim Registered User (9/3/03 11:39 am) Reply	Re: The Eagle Peers Over the Cliff and Chasm "I don't think you can state that you basically don't believe he was anything more than one of the many of the Jewish mystics who were wandering around Israel at the time (and there were others, some also claiming to be the Messiah) and then expect him to "do something" about the Visgoths, the Inquistion and the Holocaust and every other Christianity related tragedy in history." That's precisely my point! If he was anything more than just another Jewish Mystic, if he really was the Moshiach, we would have entered into the Messianic age and the prophecies would have been fullfilled. There would be no more wars and violence, etc., etc. People have made an Image of him that has nothing to do with him, and created a religion that, while it has the potential to guide people and be a valid spiritual path, like many other forms of religion, has also produced a huge amount of judgmental hatred and self-righteous violence. They've thrown the responsibility that is there's over to a mythical, magical being. I don't expect Jesus to interfere with anything because I think that we are who is responsible for the world and we can't rely on supernatural beings who somehow magically save us, or that if we 'believe' in something or someone and go to a specific 'church' or 'temple' or 'synagogue' or 'mosque' we are somehow brought to a higher plane and 'saved'. We may be aided by higher beings, but it's certainly not just Jesus who is doing this, to say the least. Just because many people have decided he is someone different and special does not mean that that actually corresponds to reality. Astral beings of various types interact rather frequently with us, some for good reasons and some for bad. Every once in a while an even higher being interacts with us. Sometimes all the differentiation goes away, and it's truly God, with no division, interacting. At a fundamental level, though, I believe that it's our responsiblity to work on ourselves, and by extension, to improve the world. Whatever assistance we have received from higher beings to make this world better is far overshadowed by the everyday efforts common people, like us, have made to widen our perceptions and understanding, our consciousness and wisdom, and help stop attrocities that are caused by religious hatred or ethnic hatred or just scarcity. I thinks it's up to us.
dawnrays Registered User (9/3/03 1:01 pm) Reply	Re: Violence Hey etz, Well, to get off subject a little here, do you honestly think that most people don't get off on violence? Don't you think that if it weren't for religeon, they'd be making up some other excuse? So called religeous wars and purges really have nothing to do with that. A true Christian is not cruel and does not hurt other people any more than necessary to protect thier families and such and maybe now and then to defend an ideal. Of course Christ didn't even do that, so to me he is the supreme inspiration and sacrifice. His life speaks for itself, IMO. But even without that, there are hundreds of miracles during and after his life that do (including many instances of the unexplainable stigmata). Master made a point of visiting Theresa Neumann in his travels and witnessed it himself. She suffered the wounds of Christ during certain times of year while beholding the corresponding visions of the time between his arrest to his death and resurrection as well as many other events in his life. She went into trances during these times and was even put on display with people filing by her bed to watch. When asked about it, she replied that she was being used as a symbol from God to show that their was still holiness in the church. Master said that in a former incarnation, she had been Mary Magdelene. She was examined, prodded and probed by doctors her entire life (as the church is wont to do, being rather suspicious of saints by nature). She also never ate except for the communal wafer after her stigmata started. But getting back to violence, in very unusual cases (like Joan of Arc and Master's former incarnation of William) it is actually thier dharma. I keep thinking you are going to bring this up as you have before so I am beating you to the punch! I think any kind of war and violence is hard to understand. Obviously, as Joan was not cannonized by the Church until 1920 and she was 14th century, I believe. I am not Jewish so I am not familiar with the age you are referring to. I know God does not think in our terms as far as time (which of course you know). And if there's any religeon probably more rife with symbolism and mystery than Christianity, it's probably Judism. Have you looked at the movies lately? Three or four times a year for about the last 25 years, I have seen a movie about the Holocaust from every possible view and perspective. The last one was "The Pianist' and now I've said "no more". How many movies about Hitler? Dozens and dozens as people are fascinated by him and by evil itself. Has there even been one really good quality movie about Christ? Certainly not one about Master and we may have to wait for the next age for that! People like violence or somebody sure does anyway because I have a hard time finding movies that my kids (and I) can see! I am very squeamish but I think I am an exception. Do you honestly think that all this is not part of the play and that our violent tendencies are not deeply imbedded in our nature? Do you really think that any one man, Messiah or not, is going to settle all of that in one life time? Here we are 2000 years later and we at least are not lining the public roads with people dying on crosses. It is not the inquisition and we are not boiling people in oil. We no longer burn people at the stake and well, progress is progress and I still think you have to see it that way. The true Christ in the Catholic sense, is the "Mystical body of Christ" and not Christ the man at all! It is people united in thier hearts in prayer and contemplation of Christ and that's real Christianity. The man, or any man like Christ or Yogananda, is a symbol that we can look to as you say. They are alot like a picture and candles and incense on our alters. They matter in a way that they help us with our sadhanas. But basically I know you and know what you're about and you know I'm not just arguing for the sake of arguing (and I love you very much). Love, dawnrays Edited by: dawnrays at: 9/3/03 1:10 pm
soulcircle Registered User (9/3/03 1:38 pm) Reply	that one kind human may live Shalom All, well to get off the subjest a little, as the last post also says~~ i have no disagreement with dawnsray, the phrase is irresistible as a tool to bring something difficult into expression~~ perhaps you understand my plagarism~~ it is stated above for different valid reasons that dawnsray makes: *Quote:* are not lining the public roads with people dying on crosses. All of you who died today on the crosses of air travel, on the crosses of vacations across the sea or this continent All of you 37,000 kin in the world who died (of hunger and hunger related disease) ......who died that others may be married in the new chapel at lake shrine Each and everyone of you, dead as a nail today, ......wealthy cathedrals and boulevards don't see the flies upon you or think today of your passing.. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ..don't see the cross that each chrome laden highly waxed car is ..don't see the cross that each cadillac is ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ But you died today A daughter of that lives in my home with me sends a second years' sponsorship payment so that Pedro in the Dominican Republic can live Midst the enslavement of a rare planet by religion...... a thirteen year old sends help to a six year old Let religion pass Let Pedro live prayers daily for the 37,000 passing and their crosses are invisible ......so it seems 270 million crosses circle * 20 years of "anything but simple living," by the Christians and others * 20 x 365 x 37,000........is the math correct May Pedro know our gratitude for his being, one of our family...... of our, of the only community and church, the human kind human kind Edited by: soulcircle at: 9/3/03 1:50 pm
Siddharthas Kid Registered User (9/3/03 11:49 pm) Reply	Re: Amen, Soulcircle! Yes,thank you for saying what needs to be said and saying it so very very well! I think it's real easy to get lost in the maze of this world and forget the one true church that lies within us all, the church of human beings, the church of a caring and kind heart.....and those hearts that suffer needlessly......hungry and ill, forgotten in the shuffle to make another buck, buy another brand new leopard skin pillbox hat Didn't JC say that the one commandment above all others was to love each other, as the Father loved us? I think I'm on the right track here, been a bit since I took a look at that.........kinda goes along with the principal of the greeting "Namaste" A cup of cold water and a loaf of bread are infinately more filling and welcome any day than a cadilac or a fancy building, particularly when given with a warm smile from the heart Thanks Soulcircle! Yer the best! Namaste! Siddhartha's Kid
etzchaim Registered User (9/4/03 5:28 am) Reply	Re: The Eagle Peers Over the Cliff and Chasm Dawnrays, first, there is the issue of "Messiah". According to the Prophets, the Moshiach will bring in an age of peace and love. This is a major and fundamental condition - "The lion shall lie down with the lamb". Unless there is a complete redefinition of what the "Messiah" represents, which is what Yogananda did, to a great extent, the only ways to get around it are the say that the Messiah did not come yet, or that he will have to come a second time to finish his job, which is what the Christians did. Second, the earth plane is the "Mars" plane, symbolically speaking. The 3rd Chakra up is ruled by Mars, and this is where we, as a group, are centered. Our lesson in this plane of existence is to move out of the Mars vibration into the Venus vibration (symbolized by the physical Earth being situated in between Mars and Venus). Mars, of course, represents war, violence, the lower ego. It's true that Jesus represents the idea of moving to the heart center, but unless we do a redefinition of the Messiah figure (which is based on the Prophets and is fundamentally a Jewish concept), he did not bring about the Messianic era, although the Christian movement did it's best to rationalize or force him to fit into the role. What Yogananda did was a complete redefinition of the idea of the Messiah figure. It doesn't fit either the Jewish definition or the Christian definition, but, while saying that this was the "original Christianity, it is clearly a Hindu interpretation of the Messiah idea, reworked to fit into the Avatar paradigm, which is also a reworking of that idea, because in the traditional Hindu view, Vishnu has ten incarnations, which are the 'classical' Avatars. The first nine have already manifested, the 10th, Kalki, is the one that hasn't. While the Messiah idea and the Avatar idea are similar, the early writings of Christianity do not reflect the idea of a multiple set of incarnations for God. There is the first coming and the second coming of the SAME incarnation, and the earliest writings seem to be very "end time" oriented, and reflect the idea that the second coming was very near, not thousands of years in the future. I happen to agree much more, at this point, with Yogananda, although the mystic I am really agreeing with is the 13th century Catalonian, Avraham Abulafia, who interprets the idea of an 'annointing' (the meaning of the Hebrew root word M-SH-CH, from which the word "Moshiach" derives) as an experience of the "oil" of God flowing over the head of the person and producing a realization of God consciousness. The "oil" is symbolic, of course, although the Kings of Israel and Judea were actually physically annointed by the leading prophet of their times with oil from the Temple, to symbolize their leadership. The Kingship failed when the 'annointed state' was no longer a reality in the Astral plane. The Chasidic view of the Messiah holds that there is always a person on the earth who represents the Messiah. The "soul" of Messiah rests over the head of this person and the hidden Messiah engages in various Astral activities that prevent the world from sinking into an 'abyss' of lower energies until humanity as a whole have evolved enough to enter into the next era, which, for all practical purposes, is very much like moving from the plane of Mars to the plane of Venus. There are always 36 people alive who are in the act of secretly keeping the Earth in a state of relative balance, and when humanity as a whole has evolved to a 'ready' state, one of those 36 people will be revealed as the person who ushers in the Messianic age, an age of true peace and love. According to this teaching, idividuals can achieve a state of Messiah before the actual age begins and these people are charged with the task of trying to enlighten the rest of humanity so that the new era can begin. There is no connection of the soul of the final Moshiach with a particular personality. Whoever is capable of carrying it at the right time will do the work. Traditionally, it will be a male who's ancestry goes back to King David, only through the descent of the fathers. I happen to disagree with the patriarchal view of the matter, but men have more of the Martial energy in them than women, who tend to be more Venusian. The Chasidic view of this is that women are naturally more spiritual and do not need to engage in the traditional ritual techniques to bring them more in line with the higher level of vibration represented by the Messianic era and that era with have more feminine vibration altogether than the era we are living in. The Patriarchal point of view indicates that it is fundamentally the male who needs to go through the necessary transformation. There is even a belief that women are only incarnating to assist men in overcoming their Martial tendencies. I find that a bit simplistic in the sense that while women may vibrate more to Venus, they are not more enlightened than men are. It's only a slight vibrational difference and doesn't account for the fact, as I see it, that souls do change sex periodically. There are indications showing up in our time period, though, that women may be ones who lead humanity into a Venusian era, but I consider that more symbolic than physically 'real'. The age of Aquarius (still hundreds of years away) seems to be very much as 'equal rights' era, so to speak, and the 'sexist' approach seems to me to be very simplistic and more of a 'competition/Martial' approach. Venus rules Libra, the 'Scales', and is more concerned with equalization than with who gets to win and be on top. In my opinion, Yogananda's teachings, and the teachings of our lineage (ours was one of the first, aside from the Kali/Shakti schools to initiate women) are similar to this because both schools of thought are coming out of an understanding that is reflecting a true meditative and perceptive approach to understanding reality. Etz
etzchaim Registered User (9/4/03 6:25 am) Reply	Re: that one kind human may live Soulcircle, thanks for putting briefly what I've been trying to say. Etz
dawnrays Registered User (9/4/03 6:27 am) Reply	Re: Jesus and religeon Well, first of all, Jesus came out of the Essene movement and that was his "lineage". This was a school started by Elijah the prophet and where most of the prophecies originated (including the prophecies about the Messiah). These prophecies were later on absorbed into the traditional Jewish culture. Jesus was not a traditional Jew in that he did not practice and apparently made a point of flying in the face of traditional Judism and the Pharisees at almost every available opportunity. He was of course disliked and considered a radical for this. It does not suprize me that the traditional Jews are not in too great of a hurry (and probably will never) to claim him as their Messiah. Christianity evolved out the the Essene movement and not traditional Judism. He never fit in to that establishment, preached against it and was considered such a problem and embarrassment that the Pharisees felt compelled in the end to manipulate circumstances into an arrest and conviction on trumped up charges. Why would any traditional Jew want him to be the Messiah? I don't think he is their Messiah, either. If you ask me, I don't think that this view of the Messiah or this age corresponds to any idea of reality. Now that I am hearing about it for the first time, I think anybody who thinks along those lines and is still waiting for this prophecy is setting themselves up for a long wait and inevitable dissapointment! Jesus redefined the role of the Messiah in his life time, through his words and actions and that's another reason why they didn't claim him. He consorted with gentiles and unclean persons such as prostitutes and tax collectors. Yogananda redefined the "Second Coming" as being on the inner levels of consciousness. The second coming takes place within each individual's consciousness and is the dawning of their own realization. He redefined most of the New Testament as a matter of fact in this way, as referring to inner workings of the mind and the soul. This is just another example, if you ask me, of religeon getting in the way of spirituality. Religeon often tries to create it's own predictable reality, but doesn't work as spirituality is the true reality and cannot be contained in a church or a temple (as soul circle above has pointed out so nicely up there). The fact that this obscure rabbi, crucified as a criminal, is still around after 2000 years and going strong, tells me that "God has spoken" despite what the Jewish texts say. dawnrays Edited by: dawnrays at: 9/4/03 6:46 am
etzchaim Registered User (9/4/03 7:07 am) Reply	Re: Jesus and religeon Dawnrays, the term 'rabbi' comes from the Pharisees. I have no issues with you believing what you want to believe. I consider much of the "New Age" to be 'belief' not based in a sound understanding of theology or history. There is extremely little information on the Essenes but for what has been dreamed in the New Age movement. You have stated New Age doctrine, not something that is actually known about the Essenes through the actual information we have on them. From your answer, I think you are reacting emotionally, and haven't really assimilated what I was saying. I think we are essentially in agreement, but you want to believe that a specific personality represents something, I want to believe that there are many who represent that and everyone of us is a contributer. The fact that Hitler will also be remembered tells me something about what people remember. A bloody death, a bloody murderer. What's important is not fame, nor are our separate beliefs important, but what we do as individuals. Edited by: etzchaim at: 9/4/03 7:19 am
etzchaim Registered User (9/4/03 7:23 am) Reply	Re: Jesus and religeon The Chasidic teaching are not in texts, by the way, they are taught orally and come out of meditation. The New Age beliefs are also contradicting Christian teaching, as well.
dawnrays Registered User (9/4/03 7:33 am) Reply	Re: Jesus and religeon Hey, Well, it seems to me that every time somebody disagrees with you, you accuse them of "being too emotional". What I stated is not a "belief". You have stated before that Jesus practiced Judism and seem to be trying to hammer this idea despite the fact that all evidence, historically speaking, points to the opposite. I doubt if there was ever a more vocal opponent of traditional Judism (or of organized religeon in general) than Jesus Christ. And yet you hang most of traditional Christianity's problems on the belief in him. Why not blame Moses for crucifying Jesus? He after all, started the ball rolling and must be somehow to blame for the Pharisee establishment. Rabbi means teacher, just like guru means teacher and does not mean that Jesus was a Jew in the sense of the word that the Pharisees were. If you are going to practice spirituality and non-religeon, why worry about what the Jewish text say? If you are going to complain about the Bible and literal Christians, why turn around and knock other peoples beliefs in Jesus (which for some, have nothing to do with religeon, but alot to do with thier inner life) by trying to disprove him as "The Messiah" according to the Jewish text? He is about as much of a Messiah as we are going to get and if that's a disappointment to you, then I guess that's that. However, to compare him with Hitler of all people, who's Third Riech, lasted less than a decade, is a little ridiculous. People "believed" in him yes, for about 10 years. That's what you call "infamy". dawnrays Edited by: dawnrays at: 9/4/03 2:15 pm
etzchaim Registered User (9/4/03 8:17 am) Reply	Re: Jesus and religeon I don't see any evidence, at all, that Jesus was anything but a Jew. The Pharisees were one group among many during his time. There was no "Traditional" Judaism then, unless you take the Saducee point of view, because it was coming out of the Priestly tradition. Almost all the different subgroups at that time were opposed to the Saducees who held power because of the Romans. The other groups viewed them as corrupt. The New Testament states that Jesus was a student of Gamliel. Gamliel was a Pharisee. From historical study, it's quite clear that the church of James was very Jewish. We get this information from the arguments between Pauls churches, who had broken away from Judaism, and the churches of James in Jerusalem. It was Paul, not Jesus, who broke away. The arguments between Jesus and the Pharisees do not show that Jesus had broken away from Judaism, they show that he had disagreements with the stricter Pharisees. These arguments present a group of "Pharisees" who were even stricter than what we now accept. The Conservative Jews today are far more radical than Jesus ever was. The reason that I said you were being emotional was because I was trying to discuss the matter with you using the available source information and sharing with you the ideas of the Chasidim. I'm not trying to shove anything down anyones throat. I was expecting further discussion, but your statements seemed to me to be a dismissal of the ideas that I'd brought in, much of which is extremely similar to what Yogananda was teaching. The Essene issue is not a settled issue among the scholars who are working with the Dead Sea material. There are many opposing opinions. I appologize if I seem like I'm trying to force my beliefs on people. I thought I was provided a different and much needed point of view. I've studied this period in great detail and have had access to scholarly material that most people do not have or are interested in going through and am more Jnani oriented than you, so I'll drop it here. Etz
dawnrays Registered User (9/4/03 8:32 am) Reply	Re: Jesus and religeon Are you kidding or what? First you say the "New Age beliefs" are not based on sound theology and history, then you assure me that the teachings you are referring to are "not in texts" and are passed down orally and come from meditation. And this is what? Sound theology and history? How do the "New Age beliefs" contradict Christianity by the way? By reinstating the original Essene doctrine of reincarnation which should never have been taken out in the first place? I never said I was a traditional Christian. Nobody is defending it so I don't understand why you keep going back and forth yourself from being a spiritual person to a religeous Jew. Sometimes these things come together and sometimes they contradict. It's nice to have a church to go to but I get the feeling nowadays that being a Jew is more of a cultural identity than anything else. I don't even think that it necessarily always has to contradict. Churches tend to move along and like people can change and reform and grow. dawnrays

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