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Borg108 Registered User (4/11/03 9:13 pm) Reply	Amma, Inc. I first arrived at Amma’s Indian ashram just in time for her birthday celebration. What immediately struck me was the commercial nature of it. There were booths set up all over selling everything from food to Amma laundry soap. My first impression reminded me of the money changers that Christ found in the Great Temple of Jerusalem. Afterwards, I was struck by the materialistic orientation that pervaded the ashram even after the birthday celebration. Westerners were charged a high fee by Indian standards for food and lodging, Lodging meant a spot on the floor of a small room shared usually with 3 or 4 others. Those who wanted privacy could “purchase” a tiny one room flat for $14,000. This entitles you to your own room while you are at the ashram, but you still have to pay half the room rate while you are there. Unless you continue paying the fee when you leave, the ashram has the usual 3 or 4 others stay in the room whenever you’re not there. Guests and residents are also expected to spend time each day rendering service to the ashram. In contrast to this, traditional Indian ashrams do not charge for room and board. Goodwill donations are accepted but not required. At Amma’s, everything is run like a business. There is a laundry service, taxi service, travel agency, phone and email service, as well as several stores, all designed to turn a profit for the ashram. Devotees are also charged high fees to travel on jam packed buses when Amma goes on her Indian tours. Food is abysmal, and accommodations usually mean a spot on a cement floor next to dozens of others on such tours. An Indian woman told me that on tour she once yelled out at Amma’s request “All you people without fathers get back on the bus.” What she told me Amma actually said was “All you bastards, get back on the bus…” Amma herself travels on these tours either in her new Mercedes (upgraded from an earlier new one) or her new luxury RV. On of the best profit sources for the ashram is the ayurvedic center that offers a few weeks of pancha karma treatments (for about 2 hours a day) at a cost of around $1500. Unpaid Indian devotees do all the treatments so the overhead to the ashram for this service is practically non-existent. One Amma devotee who gets treated every year told me that Amma said to him that one round of pancha karma treatments is worth 10 years of sadhana. So he, in effect, expects to buy his way to heaven by having pancha karma treatments done every year The US and foreign tours are also very profitable for Amma owing to profits from retreat fees, donations, and the sale of high priced books, tapes, and other items. I once asked a man why he bought a tabla set from the ashram when he could have purchased the same kind of instrument at little more than half the cost outside the ashram. He told me that the ashram profits were going for a good cause. This is a common misconception perpetuated by the ashram itself. At all of Amma’s programs there are announcements encouraging donations to Amma’s so-called charitable activities and saying that the profit from selling books, tapes, and other items goes toward these charitable activities, which fall into 5 main areas: orphanages, schools, housing, and hospitals. I decided to look into all of these when I was in India. I visited her orphanage near the ashram and was disturbed to see how the children there were living. Four children shared each bunk bed, which was just a metal frame with no mattresses. The food was just watery rice with a little overcooked vegetable. I was told the children would have had no clothing to wear except for the generous donations of clothing from some local Indians. When I asked who was paying for the few caretakers I saw there, I was told the state was paying them, since they were the children’s teachers. Amma’s schools are also listed as one of her charitable activities, but they are a very lucrative business for the ashram. Only those who can pay to attend are welcome. This applies at all levels from grade school up to trade college. Devotees are sometimes recruited to teach at these schools for little or no pay, but students are always required to pay for the privledge of attending an Amma school. The engineering, management and computer colleges are particularly profitable for the ashram. As for housing for the poor, the costs and numbers of such units built have been grossly inflated. The ashram will not build a dwelling unless the people own the land on which it is to be put. Obviously, not many of the poor are land owners. Perhaps the most egregious misrepresentation of Amma’s charitable activities occurs with respect to the AIMS specialty hospital in Cochin. This has been used as the center piece for Amma’s money raising efforts. It is always touted as a charitable hospital meant to serve the poor and needy. Amma’s websites and the hospital website have always maintained that over half the hospital’s work is charitable in nature. But this is absolutely untrue. I know a man who went to India (a friend of soulcircle) to do some consulting at AIMS a few years back. He interviewed the management and doctors there and obtained copies of the hospital’s financial statements. He was very surprised to find out that less than 5% of the hospital’s resources were devoted to servicing the poor, and even that amount wouldn’t have been there had it not been paid for by the government of India. Even the few poor people who were given medical care had to pay for their medications, which many could not do. This man was very disappointed to see poor people being turned away from AIMS and refused treatment. He approached Amma with this information and asked why monies were being raised adharmically under false pretenses. Amma, who knows and directs all these matters, told him that he was wrong and that 50% of the hospital’s activities are charitable. He could hardly believe his ears and politely asked to be shown how this could be so. So Amma had the hospital’s VP of Finance present their case, which went as follows: There are a few private hospitals for the wealthy in India that charge more than AIMS. Some might even charge twice as much as AIMS for the same procedures. Therefore, the difference between what they charge and what AIMS charges should be regarded as charitable.. The fact that the poor cannot afford care at either place somehow got lost in their logic. Meanwhile, Amma’s organization puts out false brochures with photos of suffering children saying that contributions to AIMS will go towards saving these poor children. The consultant mentioned above was also surprised to find out that many of Amma’s devotees at AIMS or in her ashram were well aware of these misrepresentations and seemed able to rationalize them away. Amma herself told others that AIMS could not afford to give any more care to the poor at that time because the hospital was expected to pay its own way (where have we heard that before?), which contradicts all the messages given about sales revenue and donations being used for charitable purposes, with AIMS being the most prominent activity. Amma said she expected the charitable work at AIMS to pick up later. Since then, however, instead of using AIMS cash flow or ashram donations or sales profits to fund hospital care for the poor, AIMS has built a very large profit oriented medical college at AIMS that overshadows the hospital itself. Kerala, a state the size of California, already had 5 free medical colleges before this one, and wasn’t in need of another. But Amma’s medical college, like her other colleges, is using the goodwill of her name to attract paying students and create more and more profits for the organization. In fact, even at her ashram now they have established another college with paying students outnumbering paying devotees. It should be obvious now that empire building is the driving force behind Amma and her organization. This is similar to SRF, which has spent outrageous sums of money on legal and accounting fees in order to solidify its organizational standing and stature. As a final note, I’m enclosing below a statement that was emailed to the Amma satsang groups by one of Amma’s former swamis when he left the organization. He was the Joint Secretary in charge of accounts, administration, banking and investments. He was offered money by the ashram if he would retract what he wrote, but he has courageously stood by his words despite being now under financial pressure. He recently started a wholesale export business for religious and devotional items. The quality and prices of his merchandise seem very good. Anyone interested should check out his website www.celextel.com IDEAS IN REALITY - INSIDE STORY My life of Twenty-Two Years as a Monastic was of never ending struggles in trying to bring the various Spiritual Ideas as Reality in my Life. While attempting to narrow down the gaps between the Ideas and Reality, I finally chose to observe my Life in Reality and had to give up the Ideas that remained unrealistic in my Life. Chastity was the main Idea that had failed to become Reality in my Life primarily due to the highly stimulating environment that I was put in. Not only in the individual level, but also in the Organization level, I have seen wide gaps when the ideas are put into practice. To narrate a few instances: 1. Just before the Inauguration of the Hospital at Cochin, we had suggested Amma to declare that Hospital as a Charitable One. But Amma had firmly told us that Amma would declare it as a FREE Hospital as that being Amma's real intention while establishing the same. Under the Indo-US Agreement, to get the complete waiver of Customs Duty for all the Medical Items to be Imported, the Ashram also has given an Irrevocable Undertaking to the Government of India that the Hospital would provide Medical Treatments at Free of Cost. But in Reality, as everyone here knows, the Ashram Hospital at Cochin is not a Free Hospital; Neither it could be considered to be a Charitable One as Certain Percentage of Beds have not been set aside as Free Ones for the use of Deserving Poor Patients. Many of the Deserving Patients from the Poorest Strata of the Society are turned away by the Hospital; Few of the luckiest ones get Subsidy; Persons from the Middle Class of the Society get affordable Treatment and the Affluent ones get the Treatment at a Competitive Rate. The Math which is a Charitable Trust is not supposed to run the Hospital like a Commercial Establishment as it is doing right now. When would the Ashram make the Hospital at Cochin as a Free or a Charitable One in Reality ? 2. The Ashram now claims to have completed 15,000 Houses to the Deserving Poor under the current Housing Scheme. In Reality, the Ashram has constructed not more than 7,500 Houses [50%] so for. The Ashram also is claiming to have spent about Rs.28,000/= per House. But in Reality, the cost incurred by the Ashram for each of the House is not more than Rs.14,000/= [50%]. Why are the False Claims ?... Let there be Justice to Every-one; Injustice to No-one ! Let there be Truth Every-where; Untruth No-where ! Edited by: Borg108 at: 6/5/03 9:33 am
Lobo Registered User (4/12/03 11:11 pm) Reply	Re: Amma, Inc. Borgji, Thanks for posting the "live and upfront" aspect of the Ammachi Inc. show. I, as was stated in her biography, believed the hospital to be totally free to all without distinction. I questioned in my mind at the time as to how she was going to pull this off, finally thinking she must have some rich devotees who were more than happy to bankroll the hospital. Probably as disheartening is the reality of what you saw at the "free" schools for the poor children. If she is telling the devotees through her official writings and promotional material that she is providing these services free as a type of Mother Teresa and it is as bad as you say it leaves me with a whole different impression of Amma and her organization. It seems that she is wholly and willfully taking from the rich westerners to give a pittance to the poor while she herself makes out just fine, thank-you! Yogananda was criticised for living in fine places and driving new cars. An argument could be made ethically that he, as a Swami and pledged to not own possessions, wear fine threads, or do the other many things that he did would be a violation of his vows. But I have made peace with this by believing that he was spirtually totally unattached to these things. Also he couldn't very well be in the rich land of America, live the life of the sadhu/Swami of his homeland, and draw the seekers he was sent here to do. He had to live as an American to get through their cultural biases to their souls. But this seems different. She seems to be running a scam, pure and simple. I've never gone to one of her "hug-in's" so I can't comment upon her vibrational level with any accuracy; but her biography paints a whole different picture of her and her work and life such that she is revered as a manifestation of the Mother Divine. Somehow I don't think that the Goddess would be interested in bamboozling rich people into giving Her their monies so She could drive fine rides while Her children are treated shabbily. Yogananda's organization changed after his demise, and that of his most illustrious disciple. Ammachi can't make the same claim as she seems front and center running the whole shebang which is prima facie evidence that "something's wrong in Kerala" and it isn't the weather. Best
soulcircle Registered User (4/13/03 12:57 am) Reply	in the lap of a drunken scam artist Guests and All, aside from the crimes against humanity committed every day by this "hugging" saint........... If ever you care to stoop so low, get a hug from Amma, and (since you are asked to get only one hug a day...sometimes she hugs 4200 in 24 hours in San Ramon,CA, and in India, 25,000) go back on about 4 more days for a hug each day........we talking about 5 hugs from Ammachi might be worth stooping so low....for what followed on the fourth hug, in my case. soulcircle Edited by: soulcircle at: 4/13/03 12:59:52 am
Borg108 Registered User (4/13/03 6:49 am) Reply	Re: in the lap of a drunken scam artist I’ve heard people say that Amma must be a saint because she can sit and hug thousands of people at a time. However, I once had an entertainer tell me that the love and devotion he felt from his audience energized him so much that he could have kept on all night, every night doing what he did – and he didn’t even hug people! As for feeling good in her presence, if faith and devotion can move mountains, then it can certainly make one joyful in someone’s presence if that is what you think will happen. I’m not saying this is the only reason this could happen, but it is something to think about. There is a guru in south India named Premananda who has miraculous powers and can materialize objects. The last I heard he was in prison for having improper sexual relations with a number of his female devotees. His followers are still devoted to him and regularly visit him in jail. I was told by one of her ashram residents that Amma once said that she and Premananda have the same state of consciousness. This I can believe. “By their fruits ye shall know them.” I was also told by a long term Amma ashram resident that her biography has been changed considerably since it was first published. A respected Swami once explained to me that it is not wrong for sadhus or sannyasis to accept money or other things that God brings to them once they surrender their life to Him. But it is improper for them to ask others for such things or to fall back into running for profit enterprises. IMO, Amma’s case is worse because she is misrepresenting how the money is being used. People give to her and her organization expecting that most of the money will benefit the poor and needy. Her diversion of these funds is like stealing them from the poor. Edited by: Borg108 at: 4/13/03 8:59:35 am
soulcircle Registered User (4/13/03 9:59 pm) Reply	back to the homeless, the children and the sick Guests and All, Before going back into retirement from the srf walrus board, I only wanted to mentioned as a long-time friend of Amma's, that other longtime friends of Amma with their own time and money are out in the ghettos of numerous big cities, and in smaller towns such as the coast of Oregon, cooking and feeding and sharing meals with the hungry, something that has been going on for years. Also, for years they have been visiting nursing homes as well as the ill in their homes. They're not here on the board tooting their horns, so I have done it for them, though they would rather do their service to humanity as their larger family without fanfare. I thank you all for the service you provide for the world. I do not dispute what Borg has said above, it troubles me maybe more than him `````` One other thing that troubles me is anonimity, I know there is difference of opinion about being able to make posts without identifying one's self. Personally I don't fear SRF they know I am the former Richmond Temple secretary 1993-96. You all know me as Dave Dunlop from Richmond,CA `````````` To bring people together as Rachel Corrie did in Palestine is worth giving one's life for. Gandhi said being a non-violent resister is being willing to give your life. I understand this. SRF, or corporate-run Bush may throw the full weight of their power at me for knowing I am the equal of anyone, for writing on this board and for being in the streets. I don't have illusions of changing SRF and religion's enslavement of people, of ending invasions for empire, ............................... ................................... I will not change who I am, and silence the voice I have. ~~~ Thank you friends, if there are needs of yours I am not meeting tell me. I love you all as myself, and need to hear from you that you love me. ~~~ Borg, you made a true point, it was my devotion that brought me dear love consciousness on Amma's shoulder June 10th, 1996. You say it well. soulcirle
astral7 Astral7 Level (4/14/03 3:39 pm) Reply	Re: Amma, Inc. Dear Lobo; Your comment about Yoganandaji living in fine places etc hardly describes Yogananda's life and attitudes. From the start of Paramahansaji's work in America[with a generous check from dad], he lived in a modest rooming house in Boston Mass, daily preparing his own food. Before he travelled across America he did so while camping along the way to reserve funds for His west coast work. Just before leaving on that trip he was handed a check for $5,000. Was the Biltmore the swankiest place he could have stayed then? It was very close to his work at the time, and no doubt was useful for some of the great guests he would receive at times . In the Mother center Ashram His suite was modest, for years they had little or no furniture, giving the funds to this work (and poor persons He would meet along the way), and when not travelling by train, he designed and used the humble housecar to keep expenses down. Again, the funds went into the work for all of us to benefit by. He was always environmentally conscious of avoiding waste with the use of energy and other goods, etc. The personal preparation of great meals for special occaisions on which he often worked was also efficient. His silk robe! That was given by sri Yukteswar as a fitting gift to His chief disciple. When he received gifts like the Caddy, he would only use it a few weeks to show appreciation to the giver and then sell it to use a more modest vehicle. His way was to use mostly modest means to live and travel. With His very heavy schedule on these lecture tours, He would often stay in or near the place of lecturing. It did well for the work at that time. He passed on with nothing in His name, and the monastics lived the same way in considerable modesty. Most of what He received was given to the work for all devotees. Even some modest collections from His travels are now on display for all to enjoy. I does not appear that He was attached to any of this great work of Self-Realization Fellowhip or its assets. There is no way you can honestly compare SRF and Others business practices, they may both make some errors, but that is where the similarity ends. Regards and respect - Astral 7
KS Registered User (6/5/03 6:16 pm) Reply	Re: Amma, Inc. I agree with Astral7 about the humility and simplicity of Master's life. A wonderful example of service and thoughts of others first. This is so totally different than what SRF is like! I can't think of a single thing it does without or a single organization or group of people it serves. What a pathetic mess.
prssmd Registered User (12/6/03 9:34 pm) Reply	Re: Amma, Inc. // YOGI RAMAIAH Yes, it's a terrible shame how many greedy, money-grubbing Indian gurus there are going around the world with the chief objective of sucking money out of gullible Westerners. A somewhat insane example of this is YOGI RAMAIAH, who, claiming that this is what "Babaji" wants (which is rather like saying that it is what God wants), always charges students in their native currency. Thus, he charges Japanese (who are a fairly wealthy people) practically nothing (208 yen), Malaysians something reasonable (208 Malaysia Ringgits), Englishmen quite a lot (208 British pounds), Americans US$208, etc. Although Japanese get off easy, on the whole it is a loony way to justify charging large amounts of money to Westerners. Notice how grossly unfair YOGI RAMAIAH is. Wealthy Japanese pay almost nothing, while much poorer Malaysians pay vastly more than Japanese. Although the U.K. is a bit poorer than the U.S., British pay more than Americans. YOGI RAMAIAH takes great pleasure in mistreating people. Edited by: prssmd at: 12/21/03 7:33 pm
celextel Registered User (7/23/05 9:08 pm) Reply	Re: Amma, Inc. (This message was left blank) Edited by: celextel at: 10/6/05 9:46 pm
Paramadas Registered User (7/24/05 10:52 pm) Reply	Re: Amma, Inc. About a month ago, I went to one of Amma's free gigs, at the LAX Hilton in Los Angeles. When I heard her speak, I was rather disappointed that she spoke no English. After all, she's been to America many times, spent lots of time here, and has lots of devotees who would gladly teach her a little English. When her words were translated, I was amused to hear that her stories centered largely around farm animals, and stories that an illiterate farming peasant would tell. Nothing wrong with the stories, but nothing deep about them either. They were cute, moralistic stories that showed no particular spiritual profundity, quite unlike the wonderful stories that Yogananda tells in the lessons. When I got a hug from Amma, it felt kind of creepy. Up close, her aura is really that of a country peasant. I actually felt rather repulsed by it. On the upside, I think she is very sincere about trying to spread the message of God's love. I didn't get the feeling that that part was phony at all, and I think it's her sincerity that draws people to her. There can be little doubt that she has certain siddas, because apparently she can get wealthy people to open their wallets bigtime. Borg's exposure of her so-called charitable work does not surprise me. As we were waiting in line to hug her, we had constant pictures of her "charities" flashed before us, and as I looked carefully at them, I saw that the crowd was glossing over some rather strange discrepancies. So, this raises a very serious question---if we can assume that she has wealthy benefactors, and if we can assume that Borg's research is accurate, then where is all the money going, if it comes to Amma but does not go to charities? Where does it wind up? Frankly, I don't give a damn, but you'd think that somebody in her organization ought to be looking into this question.
member108 Registered User (9/16/05 10:02 pm) Reply	Re: Amma, Inc. I understand that SRF is freaking out over this women. Anyone know if they really are telling people to stay away from her?
Ramsses II Registered User (10/1/05 8:47 am) Reply	Re: Amma, Inc. You deserve your ignorance. Amma is God.
dontknownothinbouthistory Registered User (10/1/05 4:29 pm) Reply	Re: Amma, Inc. Yes SRF has told (and from the Temple pulpit) people to stay away from Amma, and not to tell newer devotees of her.
yourfriend108 Registered User (10/2/05 1:47 am) Reply	Re: Amma, Inc. I just happened to read the article posted on this website by Borg108, Mr. Lakshman and others. It is extremely unfortunate that Borg108 and Mr. Lakshman should stoop so low as to try and malign the name of the Mata Amritanandamayi Math. After all the Ashram has done for Mr. Lakshman, it is shocking to come accross his allegations on this website. For those who have known and interacted with Mr. Lakshman over the past decade, it is a well-known fact that he has been through several controversial and turbulent phases in his life. Initially, he wandered around the country trying to be associated with several ashrams before finally being accepted by the Ramakrishna Math and eventually ordained into sannyasa. However, some time later, inappropriate actions on his part resulted in his dismissal from the Ramakrishna Math and their stripping of his robes. He wandered around for some more time, afflicted with a severe case of tuberculosis, his body ridden with sores, rejected by one and all. It was at this juncture in his life that he came into Amma’s divine and soothing presence. Out of her infinite compassion, Amma took him under her wing, took care of him and, as he eventually got better, even entrusted him with the day-to-day administrative affairs of running the Ashram. “As for housing for the poor, the costs and numbers of such units built have been grossly inflated. The ashram will not build a dwelling unless the people own the land on which it is to be put. Obviously, not many of the poor are land owners”. As for his allegations regarding the “housing project”, it should be known that he was never aware of the project’s details in the first place. He was not involved in the project—even though it was in full swing—when he left the Math, because of—yet again—inappropriate conduct on his part. Moreover, the claim that the ashram “will not build a dwelling unless the people own land” is patently false and reflects a totally ignorance of the reality of Amma’s housing project. There are many instances of projects the ashram has undertaken to build entire communities for those who had no land, or whose houses were destroyed in natural disasters. To name only a few, there are the villages of Modsar, Dagara, and Mokhana in Gujarat, slum rehabilitation projects in Pune and Hyderabad, colonies in Visakapattanam, Cudallur, Rameshwaram, Panangudi & Chennai (Tamil Nadu), Ghaziabad (Uttar Pradesh), Durgapur & Calcutta (West Bengal), Allahabad, Lucknow, etc. Sometimes a single project entails the construction of thousands of homes for those who own no property at all. In all of the projects, the Indian government has opted to collaborate with Mata Amritanandamayi Math (MAM), knowing that the ashram has an excellent track record and is trustworthy. Even though “The Amrita Kuteeram” project (wherein 25,000 houses were constructed over a period of five years) was officially launched in 1997, the Ashram had started building houses for the needy in 1996. When the first phase of the Amrita Kuteeram project was completed in May of 1998, the then Prime Minister of India, Mr. Atal Behari Vajpayee, gave away keys to 5,000 houses to the poor and needy. In 2002, the Math, as promised, met its goal of giving away more than 25,000 houses, including 1,200 houses it constructed in order to rebuild the three villages in Bhuj, Gujarat. Including these three villages that MAM adopted after the devastating earthquake in Gujarat, it had completed and handed over 30,000 houses by 2002, exceeding its initial goal. In 2002, on the occasion of her 49th birthday, Amma announced a massive project of building 100,000 houses across the country. This project is now underway. In addition to this, MAM is building over 6200 houses for the tsunami victims. By the way, I am sure that you are aware of Amma’s enormous tsunami relief and rehabilitation activities. If not, please take a look at www.amritapuri.org/tsunami/. Some of the other allegations fabricated from their imaginations are addressed below : Bookstall sales : Nobody criticizes large corporations for selling their goods, even though they are motivated by explicitly selfish interests, and make no commitments to uplifting society. How then can we deny charitable institutions, religious or otherwise, the right to raise funds for social service projects in this way? It is not as though the goods are hawked in some offensive or forceful manner, or sold in the sanctum sanctorum or while people are praying, etc. The shops are there — those who are not interested need not buy anything. In fact, earlier there were no shops, but the people coming to the ashram requested many of these things, such as the canteen, juice stall, etc. Do you propose that people living in an ashram should do without food and laundry soap? The westerners themselves run the accommodations office and international office. They fix the price for the food and lodging, at a rate that everyone finds reasonable. Seva : Nobody is forced into doing seva (volunteer work) when they come to visit the ashram, but the office requests that they participate in the general ashram maintenance for 2 hours per day. These typical tasks are very simple, like veggie chopping, sweeping, etc. and also provide an opportunity for newcomers to make a connection with other visitors and residents. Group participation in daily tasks is a fundamental principle of community living. These are all services that cropped up much later in the ashram’s history, provided at the express request of ashram residents and visitors. Many people are disabled, not used to an Indian environment, or unable to wash their own clothes. They don’t speak the language and cannot book their own taxi, or might be taken advantage of by greedy taxi drivers if they tried. Everyone wants to make telephone calls and access their email, so the westerners themselves have taken the initiative to set up services like internet. What is wrong with that? Do you propose to deny people the right to make a telephone call or access their email, just because they are visiting an ashram? Are you yourself able to live without a telephone or email access? I highly doubt it. Or, do you expect the services to be provided free of charge, at the ashram’s expense, meaning that that much money is siphoned off from the charitable projects for the poor and needy? Despite the description of the tours—which is obviously highly biased—every year the number of participants increases drastically, and nobody complains about the fees or conditions. If it was as bad for Borg108 to say, who would want to accompany Amma on such a tour? In fact the devotees and disciples of Amma consider these tours as part of their sadhana (spiritual practice) and celebrate these occasions as some of the most blissful moments in their life. Only a narrow, prejudiced mind can misinterpret it the way you have done. “Amma herself travels on these tours either in her new Mercedes (upgraded from an earlier new one) or her new luxury RV”. For many years, the ashram residents have requested that Amma travel by plane, but she has always rejected the idea. Instead, Amma insists on traveling by road with her children. Amma does sometimes travel in a Mercedes, which was lovingly donated by one of her devotees out of concern for her health when she travels the unforgiving 16-20 hour (some times even longer) journeys on the intolerable Indian road conditions. Even though Amma’s grueling style of personally embracing each person who attends her programs (up to thirty or forty thousand in a single night) takes an extremely heavy toll on her body, she continues a mind-boggling schedule of darshan and public programs throughout the world. The physical duress she undergoes each day, however, make traveling on Indian roads in cars with poor suspension and shock absorption unthinkable—Amma’s children would never allow it, and have won the concession of convincing Amma to travel by a better automobile. The “luxury RV” which is spoken of is simply a Volkswagen minivan—five or six years old—with a camper shell on the back, and it can hardly be called luxury. Usually after finishing a program in one place, Amma will immediately get in the car and start the long, arduous journey by road to the next city. As soon as she arrives, she commences the next program, so there is never any time for her to get rest, except during the bumpy ride along the way. And Amma never travels alone in the vehicle – there will always be four or five others with her, leaving very little space even for Amma to rest. For your information, the Kelley Blue Book value for a VW van of that year and make is about $15,000. “On of the best profit sources for the ashram is the ayurvedic center that offers a few weeks of panchakarma treatments (for about 2 hours a day) at a cost of around $1500. Unpaid Indian devotees do all the treatments so the overhead to the ashram for this service is practically non-existent. One Amma devotee who gets treated every year told me that Amma said to him that one round of pancha karma treatments is worth 10 years of sadhana. So he, in effect, expects to buy his way to heaven by having pancha karma treatments done every year”. The treatment is for about a month and a half, not “a few weeks,” and this rate is far cheaper than other ayurvedic centers around the world. See www.lotusayurveda.com, where the treatment is $3000 for a six-day course, or a $280 per day treatment at panchakarma.net. And, at Amma’s ashram, the medicines are not of the substandard machine-produced variety, but lovingly made by hand on location by sincere monastic members of the community. The fact that people work without accepting any payment is actually one of the ashram’s greatest strengths. It is the proof that people’s donations are reaching the needy, rather than being siphoned off to cover costly overhead, like other organizations. Amma’s emphasis is on self-sacrifice, which she demonstrates better than anyone. Which do you think the world needs more today, selfless or selfish people? I, too, have undergone the panchakarma treatments, and can say from my personal experience that the physical, emotional, and spiritual purification it creates is immense. The reference to “10 years of sadhana” came as no surprise to me when I heard Amma say it, but nobody is under the impression that they are buying their way to heaven. Anyhow, I encourage you to try pancha karma treatment once, if you have the courage, and save your comments until after that experience. “The US and foreign tours are also very profitable for Amma owing to profits from retreat fees, donations, and the sale of high priced books, tapes, and other items”. Amma’s retreats are very reasonably priced, compared to many other organizations, and certainly much less than corporate seminars of the same duration. (e.g., see www.kripalu.org for a 3-day Transformative Retreat that costs $916) The greatest testimony to the fair pricing of the retreat is the steady increase in the number of participants. Since their inception, most retreats have grown to over 10 times their initial size. If they could be considered overpriced, why the huge increase in participants? Also, it is strange that you haven’t mentioned anything about all the public programs that are completely free of charge, when almost all spiritual teachers charge highly for every single program they hold. In fact, Amma never visits a city without holding at least one free program that is open to all, and the vast majority of Amma’s programs all over the world are completely free. Let me take this opportunity to bring to your attention that Amma’s meditation technique, IAM – Integrated Amrita Meditation Technique is also offered free of charge all over the world. Even pseudo spiritual teachers who have nothing to offer for the benefit or uplift of society and individuals charge enormous amounts to teach their meditation techniques. Compared to their unreasonably priced retreats and classes, Amma’s retreat charges are minimal; just enough to cover the cost of food and accommodation and what the participants get in return is a soul-transforming experience. Don’t you know that Amma sits hours on end, some times 18 or 20 hours receiving every single person who comes to see her, listening to them, wiping their tears, consoling and counseling them? Amma’s books and other items available during the tour are also priced on par with other such items available around the world. Nobody is forced to buy anything, but still everyone continues shopping there, obviously feeling the prices to be fair. “I once asked a man why he bought a tabla set from the ashram when he could have purchased the same kind of instrument at little more than half the cost outside the ashram. He told me that the ashram profits were going for a good cause. This is a common misconception perpetuated by the ashram itself”. First of all, the prices are perfectly on par with other shops selling tablas in the US. See for example www.buckinghammusic.com/tabla/tabla.html Furthermore, musical instruments sold by the ashram are carefully selected by trained musicians who travel across India to bring them back to Amritapuri. It is those same quality instruments that are properly tuned and taken for sales on the foreign tours. Other shops won’t hesitate to sell unsuspecting Westerners second-rate instruments without even tuning them properly. “At all of Amma's programs there are announcements encouraging donations to Amma's so-called charitable activities and saying that the profit from selling books, tapes, and other items goes toward these charitable activities, which fall into 5 main areas: orphanages, schools, housing, and hospitals”. Nobody is encouraged and it is not mandatory; the information about the activities is simply announced over the sound system and nothing more. Of course it is indicated that the proceeds go to the charitable activities, since it is true. Can you point out another spiritual master or organization who does so much for the poor and needy & for the world at large. There is no help from any other source…be it any other organization or community or even the Government itself. It all falls into place by Amma’s grace & the dedication of Amma’s children who are willing to do anything they can by way of money or technical expertise or just plain hard labor. For e.g. after the catastrophic disaster that shook the world on 26th Dec 2004, when Amma dedicated 100 crores for building houses for the families that had lost everything, it was only the selfless service of the devotees & their sweat & toil that made it possible even when the expenses involved skyrocketed to twice that amount (200 crores) & the number of houses that needed to be built increased & there was no assistance even from the Government. Even Amma’s little children do their best by selling flowers or little pieces of art work & donating what little they can for the cause. “I decided to look into all of these when I was in India. I visited her orphanage near the ashram and was disturbed to see how the children there were living. Four children shared each bunk bed, which was just a metal frame with no mattresses”. Those who know the truth of the matter can attest to the fact that the conditions at the orphanage have improved drastically since the ashram took over maintenance. I have personally taken many groups from various countries to the orphanage, even recently, and nobody has commented in this way. The living accommodations are actually far better than average for India, very sanitary and neat. Each child has his own bed, mat, and storage space for personal belongings. Accommodations are separate for boys and girls. As you have written such malevolent and defamatory things about the orphanage, you must also know a little bit about the state of the orphanage before Amma’s organization came to the picture. The orphanage was in an extremely pathetic condition before Amma took over the responsibility of running the place. The children had no proper food or clothing. They were living in an old ramshackle building. Instead of using firewood, cooking was done using pieces of rubber from damaged vehicle wheels. With poor hygienic conditions and malnutrition, the children were afflicted by contagious diseases. Unable to pay off the liabilities and left with absolutely no resources to run the place, the trustees of the organization finally approached Amma and requested her help. At this time, the ashram did not even have a spacious hall for the increasing number of devotees to sit and listen to Amma’s bhajans and participate in the prayer. One of Amma’s devotees had donated a sum to fulfill the need. However, Amma was so moved at the plight of these children that she opted to buy the orphanage rather than building the prayer hall. Since then the place has completely changed. Every building has been remodeled from the inside out, new structures have been added, as well as facilities for all kinds of wholesome extracurricular activities. Open your heart, talk to the children there, listen to their stories, look at their smiling faces, see their transformation, friend, you will be amazed…they love Amma so much, because Amma brought light to their lives… "The food was just watery rice with a little overcooked vegetable”. This kind of “rice soup” with vegetable curry is served only for breakfast and dinner, while lunch is a heavier meal of rice, several vegetarian curries, and buttermilk. Rice soup, or “Kanni,” is actually the preferred breakfast and dinner of many Keralites, and is also appreciated by the nationals of other Asian countries, such as Japan, where it is called “okayu.” Though it may seem scanty by our luxurious Western standards, flatly rejecting this type of food as unacceptable is nothing more than cultural chauvinism. You also forgot to mention that the orphanage children regularly and consistently win awards for artistic and scholarly excellence – certainly not the type of performance you would expect from abused, malnourished children. I was told the children would have had no clothing to wear except for the generous donations of clothing from some local Indians. When I asked who was paying for the few caretakers I saw there, I was told the state was paying them, since they were the children's teachers. The teachers’ salaries are paid by the government of Kerala, but the orphanage itself is run by Amma’s renunciate disciples, who take no salary. “Amma's schools are also listed as one of her charitable activities, but they are a very lucrative business for the ashram. Only those who can pay to attend are welcome. This applies at all levels from grade school up to trade college. Devotees are sometimes recruited to teach at these schools for little or no pay, but students are always required to pay for the privileged of attending an Amma school. The engineering, management and computer colleges are particularly profitable for the ashram”. This is completely untrue. The teachers are paid well and each school has at least 100 students getting free education. At present Amma’s organization has 53 schools across the country. So, altogether there are over 5000 students getting free education. So to say that the colleges are profitable is a completely baseless statement. “It should be obvious now that empire building is the driving force behind Amma and her organization.” Anyone who really knows Amma would never be able to make such a statement. Those who travel with her and translate for her in the West can attest to how many times she has turned down offers to start centers and organizations in various parts of the world. What has actually manifested till now is only a fraction of the possibilities and opportunities that were available to her. If avaricious “empire building” was “the driving force behind Amma,” why would she turn down so many opportunities? Why should she torture herself sitting in a chair and taking the weight of thousands of individuals on her lap for 18 hours a day, then eat only a few handfuls of rice and curry per day, sleep only a couple of hours on the floor, and live in a tiny room with no privacy? All of the institutions Amma has established serve society in many ways, but none of them benefit her, personally, in the least. They only increase the amount of time she must spend answering questions and solving problems. All full details and photos of all these projects are available for your perusal online via dozens of links on this page: www.amritapuri.org/search/sitemap-social.php "Perhaps the most egregious misrepresentation of Amma's charitable activities occurs with respect to the AIMS specialty hospital in Cochin. This has been used the center piece for Amma's money raising efforts. It is always touted as a charitable hospital meant to serve the poor and needy Amma's websites and the hospital website have always maintained that over half the hospital's work is charitable in nature. But this is absolutely untrue. I know a man who went to India (a friend of soul circle) to do some consulting at AIMS a few years back. He interviewed the management and doctors there and obtained copies of the hospital's financial statements…." Since the inception of AIMS hospital, there has been a drastic change in Kerala’s health care system altogether. It took a positive and affordable turn, highly benefiting the lower middle class and poor people of society. Even the State government is aware of this fact. The previous Chief Minister of Kerala, Mr. A. K. Antony and the present government of Kerala publicly praised Amma and her organization for bringing about this change. Meanwhile, the poor patients still get free treatment at AIMS. In the AIMS hospital Cardiology Dept. itself there have been over 3,250 heart bypass operations/ surgeries that were performed FREE … absolutely FREE of charge. You can figure out the cost involved yourself for this kind of undertaking….& this is just in the Cardiology Dept! This is proof enough that the proceeds from the sales of various items in the Ashram that you mentioned earlier goes back to society for upliftment of the poor & needy people. Even otherwise, the treatment charges at AIMS are much lesser and subsidized compared to other hospitals both inside and outside the state. In fact, hospitals in Kerala had to slash down their own treatment charges due to the tremendous influence of AIMS. These are not empty statements, but can be proved, laying out clear evidence, provided you have the understanding and courage to visit the hospital and other charitable projects of Amma. To conclude, it is very obvious that these allegations are completely baseless & superficial & stem from a prejudiced & partial mind. You need not be an ardent devotee of Amma… if you at least have some compassion for suffering humanity & an open heart then only can you even attempt to understand the magnitude of Amma’s greatness. Edited by: yourfriend108 at: 10/9/05 12:47 pm
celextel Registered User (10/2/05 3:32 am) Reply	Re: Amma, Inc. (This message was left blank) Edited by: celextel at: 10/6/05 9:46 pm
Ramsses II Registered User (10/3/05 7:10 pm) Reply	Re: Amma, Inc. Thanks, yourfriend108, whoever you are.
JaiMaa Registered User (1/3/06 1:17 pm) Reply	Re: Amma, Inc. I was an inmate at Amma’s in India and have been on a number of her tours both in India and abroad. I’ve also spent time at other ashrams, such as those of YSS, Ramana Maharishi, Papa Ramdas, Divine Light Society, Chandra Swami, Ananda Moyi Ma, and others. These rely on the same traditional ashram blueprint – you go and are provided for spiritually and physically while you are there – then you make a freewill donation when you leave of whatever is appropriate for you. It is God taking care of God. The only commercial activities might be the sale of books, but at prices much lower than what Amma charges. Amma’s place is run a lot differently, much like a hotel, with high fixed charges for everything. On Amma’s India tours, she gives planetary pujas to help those who attend, but you have to pay money to be a part of the puja. By western standards it isn’t much. But the poorest Indians, who Amma says she wants to help, cannot afford it. In western countries, as part of Amma’s “free” programs, she does a devi puja in which donation envelopes are given to everyone and collected after the puja. However, it is the custom in India for gurus to not ask for donations, but to rely on God and accept what comes or doesn’t come through the divine will. In contrast to this, everything at Amma’s is money oriented. For example, for those wanting to give something to Amma when receiving her darshan, her organization will sell you a few flowers for $5. After the darshan, the flowers go back into a bucket and are resold many, many times. In addition, enormous profits are made on the sale of books, tapes, photos, gift items etc. during these “free” programs. As for yourfriend108’s assertion that Amma’s retreats cost just enough to cover the cost of food and accommodations, the www.ammachi.org website lists the cost of her two day retreat in California as $185 and in Michigan as $215, without accommodations, which are extra. This is hardly just the cost of food. These events are big money makers for Amma. It wouldn’t be so bad for her group to be run like a profit making business if they really did a lot of charitable work with the money they take in. But, unfortunately, this is not the case. For example, during the years I came and went from Amma’s in India, all students were required to pay to attend her schools. I know of one poor Indian man who was broken hearted because he could not afford to send his daughter to an Amma school even though he worked for Amma’s organization. There was a proposal a few years back to not charge a few students if they would then pay the fees for another student right after they graduated. So the financial burden falls on these poor graduates, while Amma’s organization still makes whatever profits they are used to making. I would hardly call this a free education. The only school now on the ammachi.org website mentioning any kind of financial assistance is the medical college, where it is available to a “few deserving students”. That college, as well some other ones set up by Amma, has only around 100 students in it, so if yourfreind108’s claims of at least 100 free students at every school were true, they would all be getting a free education. As for the housing provided to the poor, my information is the same as Borg108 and Lakshmanan. Houses were built only for those already owning land. However, some wealthy devotees would sometimes donate land for this purpose. It now sounds like the government of India is “collaborating with MAM”, and providing much of the financial assistance. It looks like Amma’s organization is again trying to take full credit for charitable works they are involved with only minimally, just as is in the case of the orphanage where the state pays the caretaker/teachers’ salaries and wealthy generous devotees pay for other things that the children need, and AIMS, where the government provides the small amount of money that is actually spent on medical care for the poor. All hospitals in India are required to provide 5% of their care to the poor, and the government of India compensates them for this with the President Fund. My understanding from talks with hospital staff during my visits to AIMS is that the hospital provides 10% of its care without charging for it, but half of this goes to VIPs, such as Amma’s family, government officials, etc. The other half that goes to the poor is paid for by the government of India. A doctor at AIMS told me that the poor usually don’t bother coming to AIMS anymore because they know they will be turned away. A long time resident at Amma’s in India told me he was doing some service for the executive director of AIMS and told the director how impressed he was that so much was being done for the poor at AIMS. The executive director told him only 5% of the care went to the poor. Yet the www.ammachi.org website still gives out the misinformation that over 50% of treatments at AIMS are charitable. In order to receive tax deductible contributions, charitable hospitals are required to give at least 40% of their care to the poor. This is probably why AIMS says this is what they do. But such a claim diverts contributed resources away from truly charitable institutions that are doing much more good for the poor than AIMS. When I asked one of Amma’s head swamis, who was very involved with AIMS, why they give out misinformation about the amount of care to they give to the poor, he told me it was the idea of a woman resident devotee, as if this somehow absolved him and Amma of responsibility for the false claim. He also told me the hospital couldn’t do more for the poor because of the high salaries paid to the hospital administrators. Later, I found out that nearly all of the administrators serve there for only room and board. I was also told a story by one of the hospital administrators, a kind woman who was trying to get contributed medicines sent directly to her because she knew if they went to the hospital, poor patients would never be able to pay for them and would never receive them. She said that during one of Amma’s US tours, announcements were being made that thousands of cardiac operations had been done free for the poor. She knew that this was false, and that AIMS hadn’t even come close to doing this number of cardiac operations for ALL patients at AIMS. So she insisted that they stop making this announcement. Indians are very family oriented and will do anything for their loved ones. Many of them want to have their relatives treated at AIMS, figuring that Amma’s blessings will somehow be there. I know of a case where a poor family had to sell their auto rickshaw, which supported the entire family, in order to get medical care for one of them at AIMS. They were so impoverished after this that they took to begging in the streets. Is this being of service to the poor? I am sure yourfriend108 means well and is very devoted to Amma. I was once like that myself. But I find now it is better to keep an open mind and not blindly accept what others say when it does not ring true. At some level, we all know what is right and what is wrong. We should listen to the voice of conscience and impartially investigate those things that trouble or concern us. Swamini Amma was Ammachi’s closest woman disciple. After being with Amma longer than almost everyone, she ran away in the middle of the night and never returned. There must have been reasons why she and other senior members of Amma’s staff were troubled and left. It’s been several years since I’ve had any contact with Amma or her organization. Perhaps things there have changed somewhat. I hope this is so, given the millions of dollars they take in each year. I am sure they must be doing some good now. Otherwise, they would never be able to keep raising so much money without arousing suspicion. Edited by: JaiMaa at: 1/16/06 12:17 am
Paramadas Registered User (1/3/06 3:18 pm) Reply	Where's all the money going? Given the allegations of corruption that JaiMaa (and others) are implying, I will reiterate my question: where's all that money going? If Amma's organization is NOT providing the free education and healthcare that they say they are, and instead charging for it, then where is the money they're saving? Where did it go? We're talking about potentially millions of dollars. It's not hard to hide that amount of money, especially if no one is suspecting corruption, but with the post 9/11 legislations on regulating money-flows, it is virtually impossible to keep that amount of money hidden if someone makes a diligent effort to find it. If the usual pattern repeats itself, then one or more of Ammachi's insiders will be found to be hoarding the money, stuffing their private bank accounts. Hey, that money's got to go somewhere. If Ammachi doesn't have a private Swiss bank account (unlikely), and the money is not going to its intended destinations, then where does the money go when it is collected? Somebody desperatetly needs to ask this obvious question, and bust this phony baloney wide open. I didn't care about this until I heard that her organizations are diverting money away from legitimate charities. Now, THAT is evil---take from the poor, and give to yourself. Yup, sounds like satan's handiwork alright. I'd love for somebody to prove me wrong, since I have some close friends who think the world of Ammachi, but the only way anyone is going to prove me wrong is to find all that money.
themillionth Registered User (1/14/06 2:26 pm) Reply	Re: Amma, Inc. Ideas in Reality the REAL “Inside” Story First of all, I don’t even think my reply is worth it on this page where people’s bogus opinions have made this web of lies and dirt throwing. It’s not rocket science to figure out that the same morons behind this page are the one’s who backstabbed their own guru. Basically, one day the REAL truth will come out and expose these ex-disciples for the fraudulent, scumbags that they are. I can’t stand cowardice. Celextel was a disgusting old man who at his spiritual pinnacle as a monk in his ochre robes eyeballed innocent young nuns on a daily basis. He embezzled money, and now he is trying to turn a buck by writing a bestseller Ideas in Reality while hawking substandard wares on his spiritual Ecommerce site? Get a life! And his wishy washy mentally is clearly seen on this board here, because although he had smack to say about Amma in order to turn a buck, he ironically turned around and wrote odes of praise about Amma. He wrote a post which confessed that his own issues prompted his exodus of the ashram that Amma is divine and he’s seen her go into samadhi states many times. He furthered that he never doubted Amma, but it was he that had a problem. But soon enough, his cowardly side took over and he deleted that post! (Scroll up and see the items left blank next to his name!) And Borg108’s second hand mamby-pamby is an overly exaggerated piece of….."work" (for lack of a better word!) It’s obvious that only a sick and twisted mind can construct a such a confusing, verbose and dense chunk of babble with such conviction. And now JaiMaa? You call yourself an "inmate" as if the ashram was a jail! We also know who you are. You are that anal rententive jerk who when you were in the ashram were rude, nasty, and had that lesbian vibe around you. I can honestly say that after your little clique left in 2000, things got much better around Amma and opened up. That gross, cliquey feeling of being lower than the almighty elite circle permeated life around Amma. Those so called disciples were rude, demanding and were slave drivers. The two Indian girls that commanded an obvious presence around the Amma scene, were snooty, high and mighty brats and thought they were god’s gift to the world. Their arrogance and hubris set them up for their ultimate fall from grace. It was no wonder they left; they were sissy livered, sniveley manipulative goody-goodies who couldn’t wait to ditch the tough ashram life for a cushy life in America. Especially Dr. Divine. You might been fooled, like me, seeing her angelic face behind her yellow robes that she was “close” to Amma. But that face could easily churn out a demonic scowl when she didn’t have things her way. One was lucky to get a smile out of any of them, let alone a hello. And they controlled everything. From the exorbitant prices in “Ambal’s Shop” to whether or not you can do certain sevas around Amma, or even TALK to Amma, they wielded their power and showed the world they controlled our lives. And the so-called Swamini? Let’s face it, she was a repressed, depressed sad and twisted soul with her own issues that lived a life of deception. Although she had a certain spunk about her, there was much to loathe about her prickly personality. Her cryptic negative character really rubbed off on people and not a kind word came from her lips. She hated everyone, judged everyone and loved to complain about how pathetic her life was; all the while she lived like a queen. She had massages, special gourmet food and people doting on her hand and foot, a cushy life that was hardly one of service and renunciation. She was a diva, a celebrity with her own line of solo music tapes and was writing a book. Though she may have had some tough times in the beginning, she never dealt with them in the correct manner. If she was not happy with taking up a spiritual life and was always plotting an escape, then why the heck did she take a vow of Sanyas and do a funeral rite to her own body (symbolizing severance from “worldly life”)? She took a vow of ultimate renunciation, and she broke it because of her own issues, desires and spinelessness. She took the easy way out by jetting in the night which proves her cowardly nature. She was always dreaming about living a promiscuous life on a beach and plotting her escape plan for several years before. And now the ex-Swamini is living her dream; she has a looser job in a scuba shop on Maui with many boy (and girlfriends. ;-) And finally, Paramadas is ParamaDUMB. Do some research, creep, and look at the facts before spewing verbal diarrhea. Do a Google News search about Amma. She gave $23 million to the tsunami victims, and $1M for Katrina relief. The media and 3rd party news sites are praising Amma for her humanitarian work. That’s the tip of the ice-burg. (Incidentally, the monks from M.A. Center presented the check to Bill Clinton for his Katrina relief foundation). The money is reaching the poor, as I have done tsunami work in Amma’s village and near Madras and seen how Amma’s mission changes lives. I went to India to do some service and personally saw Amma’s organization doing so many things for the poor in India (and even in the USA!). Every organization needs to do fundraising to fund charities and maintain operating costs. An organization like Amma’s with a such a vast global reach has so many operating expenses and costs are high nowadays as we all know. Amma herself hardly eats, or sleeps. Every second of her day can be accounted for; she sleeps on a sheet on the floor! I have seen the westerner devotees and tourists in the ashram with fancy Thermarests and Aerobeds while Amma sleeps on the hard floor. While other gurus live in palatial mansions behind an iron curtain, Amma’s life is an open book. All you have to do is look. Only a sick, twisted and vile person(s) would find fault with Amma and her mission….and its no wonder we know who they are. They were the insiders who were too cowardly to face the fact that they weren’t cut out for spiritual life. So they left, and blamed the Ashram and Amma for it. It’s no wonder that one is born every minute! Edited by: themillionth at: 1/14/06 2:27 pm
Paramadas Registered User (1/14/06 4:21 pm) Reply	Re: Amma, Inc. the millionth, If you are any sort of example of the kind of character that Amma builds, then Amma has failed you utterly (or vice versa). Your childish name-calling and unrelenting negativity speak far louder than any rational argument possibly could. Some of your descriptions of others would appear to be a self-condemnation: "twisted soul" "cryptic negative personality" "not a kind word came from her lips" It's Freudian slip time---you're describing yourself. You say that "Amma's mission changes lives". If it's changed yours, then no one will respect her. My advice: hold your tongue, because you discredit Amma and her organization. Edited by: Paramadas at: 1/15/06 11:18 pm
metheuse Registered User (1/15/06 12:29 am) Reply	Re: Amma, Inc. Fools argue. Wise men discuss. Amma supporters foam at mouth.

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