Western Gurus -- Thoughts and Experiences

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SRF Walrus > Non-SRF Teachings and Ideals > Western Gurus -- Thoughts and Experiences
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prssmd Registered User (11/4/03 9:17 am) Reply	Re: Gurunath, aka "Yogiraj Gurunath Siddhanath" So far as I am able to determine, Gurunath himself selected the grandiose title for himself, Yogiraj Gurunath Siddhanath. (I might change my opinion, however, if he were to state the name of the yogi who gave him this title.) Probably he did so in order to create the impression of being a Great Yogi. I myself don´t think that great yogis need to give themselves grandiose titles. If they are truly great, their greatness will shine without the title. Therefore, I choose not to use "Yogiraj Gurunath Siddhanath" for him. If he has a sense of humor--and he does--I don´t think he will really object to being called "Guru-nut." By the way, "Yogiraj" means "Yoga King." Guru-nut is saying, with his new name, that he is a Yoga King. This is consistent with his statement, which he made to me, that he is the only master, or only sadguru, and all others are "small fry." My recent replies to chela2020, etzchaim, and soulcircle are on page 2 (the previous page) of this section. Edited by: prssmd at: 11/8/03 5:33 am
soulcircle Registered User (11/4/03 1:23 pm) Reply	you have no personal experiences to speak from?? prssmd on 11/04 at 9:10AM i note that "anyone who has a spent lot of time at almost any U.S. university" (48 years in my case)....................is not a response to my request that you speak from your own and your close friends' personal experiences Edited by: soulcircle at: 11/4/03 1:30 pm
etzchaim Registered User (11/5/03 10:30 am) Reply	Re: specific examples from your life might help "Certainly anyone who has spent a lot of time at almost any U.S. university and kept her or his eyes open should know of lots of males whose careers have been destroyed by slanderous, libelous accusations from women." I've been working at Universities for about 10 years now, and the main issues that have come up have to do with white guys (and one gal, recently) getting upset about Affirmative Action. I know a good number of professors and none of them have had their careers ruined by false sexual harassment accusations, nor have I met students where this is the case. I know of a number of situations where women have been harassed or raped by men, some by students (often someone they know and it goes unreported and the young woman is scarred for life...) and some by community/family members, often unreported, and a couple cases where a male friend of mine confided that he was abused by a family member, all of which went unreported. All of the abusers in the cases I personally know of were men, but I'm sure that women have done some abusing in a sexual sense, though the numbers are far lower. Women get manipulative frequently, but don't sexually abuse as often. I have only heard of a couple of well publicized cases where the accusations made by the woman were false, and there are far more cases where blacks are falsely accused of committing crimes. Women have had to struggle so long JUST to get taken seriously when they were harassed and/or raped (for quite some time the woman was BLAMED for 'attracting' her rapist!) that when a woman makes a false accusation, almost all the women I know are just as disgusted at the men are. Some have been quite pissed, including myself, because it causes the many, many real situations that women have gone through to be taken less seriously. Most harassment and many rape cases do not get reported at all because of the strength and fear of NOT being taken seriously, not to mention the reliving of the situation, the possibility of losing their jobs, and the possibility of receiving retaliation from the abuser, etc. I think you are flapping a red herring...if you have real statistics, or even can tell us a personal story of someone you know...we might consider the possibility of "thousands of mens careers ruined" by this phenomenon. As far as I can tell, far more men get away scott free than are even rightly accused, let alone so many having their careers damaged by false accusations.
soulcircle Registered User (11/5/03 1:50 pm) Reply	prssmd's words were: many tens of thousands in an earlier post in this thread prssmd, you wrote: *Quote:* It is a terrible shame that many tens of thousands of American men have had their careers destroyed by this sort of slander and libel. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ bless your soul ezchzim and yours to prssmd and everyone's and mine thank you so much ezchaim Edited by: soulcircle at: 11/5/03 1:57 pm
prssmd Registered User (11/8/03 5:29 am) Reply	Re: you have no personal experiences to speak from?? soulcircle, I know many examples but sorry, I cannot give the names, dates, and places on this website. Also, in my opinion the details of particular cases of false allegations of sexual harrasment go beyond the scope of this website and are more appropriately discussed on websites directly concerned with the issue of sexual harrasment.
prssmd Registered User (11/11/03 7:18 am) Reply	Re: Etzchaim's remarks Etzchaim writes, "I see absolutely nothing of value in ruminating over the faults of others." In contrast, I see a great value in ruminating over the faults of certain others, especially gurus. As Etzchaim herself points out, "The problem with Gurus and teachers is our expectations of them. There are indeed abusers among them, and this needs to be pointed out, but there are also many people who are passively expecting to be enlightened by them, or passively taught by them, handed the jewels without earning them, and demanding that they only teacher they deserve be perfect!" When yoga students learn that no teacher is perfect, they will be less likely to passively expect to be enlightened by the teacher, handed the jewels without earning them. Edited by: prssmd at: 11/11/03 7:20 am
etzchaim Registered User (11/11/03 10:37 am) Reply	Re: Etzchaim's remarks Well, once you figure out that, like, the earth plane and it's characters just ain't perfect, what's with the ruminating? Seems like a waste of time.
prssmd Registered User (11/14/03 8:38 am) Reply	Re: Etzchaim's remarks The trouble is, many people haven't figured out yet that their gurus have the same faults everyone else has. Thus, the criticism is necessary, and will continue to be necessary for many decades to come. Nevertheless, those gurus with real power behind them can do a lot for their students if they choose to do so. But that is a big 'if' because many gurus with powers are quite wary about using them. The powers are evidence of a higher attainment, but not evidence of moral perfection or of even above-average good character.
dawnrays Registered User (11/14/03 8:47 am) Reply	Re: Etzchaim's remarks Sorry to but in here, but that last remark makes absolutely no sense. If by "good character", you mean can a person be trusted then yes I believe that is a higher (if not the highest) attainment. I don't know where this saying comes from but "he who does not trust, will not be trusted" keeps coming to mind. If you do not or cannot trust someone (guru or not), no "higher powers" are going to help your relationship. And certainly God would not trust an untrustworthy person. I suppose there have been instances of persons who have become egocentric in thier "powers", but even in the wicca religeon it is recognized that "what goes around comes around" (karma) and black magic always falls back on the practitioner. There is of course also a point where outside facts and information are not enough and you really do have to trust your inner resources to make the right decision. Hope this helps or makes sense. dawnrays Edited by: dawnrays at: 11/14/03 12:41 pm
etzchaim Registered User (11/14/03 9:05 am) Reply	"Not all wizards are good, Harry" Aw, c'mon now, Dawnrays, Voldemort may have been damaged by his dark powers via Harry, but he sure did reek havoc in the meantime...and still is... But seriously, anyone with a technique who practices it in a disciplined way can get a "power". It takes time for karmic return, and the damage that can be done before it manifests can be devastating. Siddhis have nothing to do with character development or true wisdom. Unless you are truly a dualist, or don't believe in free will, you should be able to see that both the good and the bad can get siddhis and use them. Power, whether it is physical or astral is often in the hands of the unwise. Edited by: etzchaim at: 11/14/03 9:09 am
dawnrays Registered User (11/14/03 9:18 am) Reply	Re: "Not all wizards are good, Harry" I think that good character is the highest achievement, with or without powers. Master always said that "loyalty was the highest law" and that a person's words who was habitually truthful would carry special power. Also the phrase "saints don't deal in morals, but in vibration" comes to mind. I would say that choosing or being attracted to someone just because they practice magic (other than the ability to magically understand, guide and love you unconditionally) is an egocentric attraction so maybe they are getting what they deserve. I know Master did have this problem during his lecture tours (vast crowds being attracted, but not too many serious students). In one lecture he told the audience to clap their hands and then kept them stuck together. That's why he eventually stopped lecturing and settled down to teach small groups of more serious students. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I don't think that magic is really a higher attainment. I don't know what this has to do with being or choosing a guru, either. Alistaire Crowley was a very powerful black magician, but he certainly was no guru. dawnrays Edited by: dawnrays at: 11/14/03 12:35 pm
etzchaim Registered User (11/14/03 9:21 am) Reply	Shock! Prssmd, we finally agree on something! But to qualify that...there is a difference in using discernment and in being judgmental. Instead of ruminating on the faults of others, I think it is far more useful on a spiritual path to help people understand how to discern between a crook and a teacher. For most people, the constant criticism of teachers only serves to dissillusion them so that they mistrust the whole lot. One person's teacher, like one person's path, may appear to be completely 'wrong' from another perspective. That does not make the teacher or the path invalid, it simply means that the two people require or relate to different things.
etzchaim Registered User (11/14/03 9:28 am) Reply	Re: "Not all wizards are good, Harry" "I would say that choosing or being attracted to someone who practiced magic (other than the ability to magically help you or love you unconditionally) is an egocentric attraction and maybe everybody's getting what they deserve." I understand what you are saying, but "Magic" can mean a few things. Just a clarification: in the West, Hermetic Magic is actually a path. There are valid teachers in it and invalid ones. You have a more "love" oriented path, but other people are more "action" and "ritually" oriented. This doesn't necessarily make that path more egotistical. It depends on what they DO with it and why. Not all Magicians are like Crowley - who did indeed have a massive ego. Everyone get's what they deserve anyway...no matter what path you choose! Edited by: etzchaim at: 11/14/03 9:30 am
prssmd Registered User (11/21/03 2:22 am) Reply	Re: Shock! etzchaim writes, "One person's teacher, like one person's path, may appear to be completely 'wrong' from another perspective." There are certain things that are objectively wrong, that is, are wrong from any rational perspective. Examples are lying, cheating, misrepresenting, overcharging, etc., when there is no overriding consideration that justifies these actions (for example, it's o.k. to lie to save someone's life. When the Nazi knocks on your door and asks you whether you're hiding any Jews, and you are, you ought to lie.) I don't think there is any reason to tolerate lying, cheating, misrepresenting, overcharging, just because the offender is a guru, or is a spiritually advanced person, on the "grounds" that "One person's teacher, like one person's path, may appear to be completely 'wrong' from another perspective." Unfortunately, Indian gurus are just about the worst offenders--and this has a lot to do with Indian culture, which is extremely corrupt. The typical money-grubbing, fraudulent, deceitful Indian guru is probably no worse than the typical Indian in general (and I am referring to Indians in India, not to Indian-Americans who were raised in a civilized country like the U.K. or the U.S. And remember that I said "typical." I did not say that ALL Indians are money-grubbing, fraudulent, and deceitful--just as I would not say that ALL Palestinians are terrorists or are supporters of terrorism, even though it is a fact that 75 percent of them are.) When money-grubbing, fraudulent, deceitful Indian gurus come to the West and become Western gurus, my wish is that they would go home and stay there. Nowadays, most of the Indian gurus who come to the West and become Western Gurus are just trying to make money for themselves, not to spread the great teachings of yoga. What a shame that such people are not following the example of the great, selfless saints of the past like Vivekananda or Ramakrishna. These people sacrificed themselves for the benefit of others and (especially in the case of Vivekananda) raised money only to help the poor or to help spread the teachings of yoga or vedanta. If you'd lived many years ago, you wouldn't have found Ramana Maharshi, Vivekananda, Ramakrishna, or Nityananda (the guru of Muktananda, founder of Siddha Yoga Dham) teaching just in order to make a buck for themselves. (However, you might have found Nityananda throwing stones at you from a tree as your approached, in an attempt to avoid being disturbed.) etzchaim insightfully worries that "For most people, the constant criticism of teachers only serves to dissillusion them so that they mistrust the whole lot." Unfortunately, she's right. That's why it's worthwhile when criticizing gurus to add that "They're not all bad." Edited by: prssmd at: 11/23/03 6:28 am
prssmd Registered User (11/21/03 2:39 am) Reply	Re: Etzchaim's remarks; trust; "higher powers" dawnrays writes, "If you do not or cannot trust someone (guru or not), no "higher powers" are going to help your relationship." There are accomplished yogis who do both bad and good. For instance, a yogi might heal a sick person from a disease, and that same yogi might abuse or lie to another person. If I were sick and the doctors told me they couldn't help me and I thought that a certain yogi could help me, I might go to see that yogi for help, even if that yogi had a reputation for being dishonest or abusive in other contexts. Thus, a yogi's "higher powers" can be helpful even to a person who does not completely trust the yogi. If I had an 11-year old child (which I don't), I wouldn't leave him or her in the care of certain yogis of whom I WOULD ask for assistance in matters such as health.
etzchaim Registered User (11/23/03 10:38 am) Reply	Re: Etzchaim's remarks; trust; "higher powers" Siddhis do not indicate enlightenment. They are, indeed, often the very things that are used to trick people. Have you ever read Ursala K. Leguins "Wizard of Earthsea" series, Prssmd? There are wizards who do tricks, and then there are those wizards who know the deeper magic and understand the true affect those tricks have. They used them only sparingly, when necessary, and they know when not to use them.
prssmd Registered User (12/6/03 9:24 pm) Reply	Re: Etzchaim's remarks; trust; "higher powers" Etzchaim writes, "Siddhis do not indicate enlightenment." Perhaps she is correct. Perhaps possessing psychic powers isn't a sufficient condition for "enlightenment." But these powers might be a necessary condition for "enlightenment," that is, it might be the case that in order to be enlightened, one must have these powers, even though some who have these powers might not be enlightened. Another way of saying this is that "All enlightened persons have powers, though not all persons who have powers are enlightened," just as all dogs are animals, even though not all animals are dogs. I think Kriyananda of Ananda, in one of his recorded talks ("Signs of Spiritual Progress"?), took the position that powers are a necessary condition for "enlightenment." He said something like this: Some people, deluded by the effect of drugs, think they have powers, but quickly discover otherwise, whereas spiritually advanced people acquire real power, and the exercise of this power is a real test of spiritual progress. (As the tape is not at hand anymore, I hope I've reported his talk correctly!)
ugizralrite Registered User (12/7/03 1:24 pm) Reply	Re: Etzchaim's remarks; trust; "higher powers" My take on it is that there are no such things as powers in the sense that they are merely exceptional levels of doing ordinary things. Under time there are just individuals with varying degrees of ability. In the eternal now there are no individuals, only one (One) exists. When the world disappears and One only remains, that is the only notable spiritual attainment. Other so-called levels of attainment go nowhere near that final category which has only one inhabitant. I would venture that a yogi had better have their affairs in order before the final embarkation, because thereafter everything becomes as nothing. All meaning ceases. Elvis has left the building. Edited by: ugizralrite at: 12/7/03 6:27 pm
etzchaim Registered User (12/8/03 6:38 am) Reply	Re: Etzchaim's remarks; trust; "higher powers" "I think Kriyananda of Ananda, in one of his recorded talks ("Signs of Spiritual Progress"?), took the position that powers are a necessary condition for "enlightenment." He said something like this: Some people, deluded by the effect of drugs, think they have powers, but quickly discover otherwise, whereas spiritually advanced people acquire real power, and the exercise of this power is a real test of spiritual progress." Back in the 80’s I met a woman who had fled to Chicago to escape from a rather hellish situation in California. She had been working as a prostitute – a high class “Call Girl”. What made it ‘hellish’ was that her boss was controlling all the women who worked for her with psychic powers. Because the woman I knew had left, she was under a rather severe psychic attack and although she was a strong woman, she was slowly losing her marbles. I, in my youthful enthusiasm and dearth of wisdom, decided to help. So I pulled out my Tantric bag of tricks, and proceeded to attempt to stop the attack. There was an assistant to the Madam, who I went for first. This one was easy, too easy, because when I then proceeded to the Madam, my trick was not strong enough. For several hours I came under the same attack that my acquaintance was under. This is how I’m entirely certain it was real, and this woman in California was powerful. Fortunately, at least at that point, I had more tricks in my bag, and I pulled out a stronger one. This worked. Powers indicate a level of attainment. If I were to compare myself to a drug addict, yes indeedy, I’m pretty durned attained. Does this indicate enlightenment? HAH!!!!!
username Registered User (12/8/03 7:59 am) Reply	Re: Etzchaim's remarks; trust; "higher powers" What exactly did you do?

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