Yogananda's extensive changes to Kriya

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srflongago Registered User (10/11/02 2:18 am) Reply	Re: Summary of the changes Kechari Mudra is an ancient exercise practiced by Yoga masters from time immemorial. Lahiri practiced it in a very traditional fashion. It is published and available from many early sources. There is nothing secret about it.
Ringbearer7 Registered User (10/11/02 6:44 am) Reply	Re: Summary of the changes Then you must know it - would you mind describing its practice?
chrisparis Registered User (10/11/02 8:15 am) Reply	Re: Summary of the changes (This message was left blank) Edited by: chrisparis at: 10/15/02 6:21:18 am
srflongago Registered User (10/11/02 10:06 am) Reply	Re: Summary of the changes First, like all exercises, acheiving this exercise is not and was never considered classically to be an essential step in roads to enlightenment. It happened to be adopted by Lahiri as part of his initiation of students. So not learning to do it is no obstacle to spirituality. Second, many traditional lineages allow the stretching of the fibers under the tongue to do this excercise. Third, some ancient texts do sanction cutting that fiber, but no sensible person would do this him or her self. A surgeon can do it, but would be very perplexed as to why. Other lineages suggest cutting a fork in the tongue, and filling the back pasages separately with the forks when the tongue is bent backwards. Does any of this have religious or spiritual content, other than expressing commitment to a certain line of ritual practices? I think not. There is a confusion of physiological response with spiritual experience. I have said repeatedly that there is too much emphasis in the West on technique, and not enough on ends. Witness all the sex manuals, which do not lead to love and understanding, only satisfaction of desire. The end is what counts. In higher Yoga the ends are love, compassion, sprituality, unity of self with the universal consciousness. There are many roads to enlightenment. Edited by: srflongago at: 10/11/02 2:45:49 pm
Ringbearer7 Registered User (10/11/02 5:32 pm) Reply	Re: Summary of the changes "If I may be so bold as to interject the answer. Kechari is the practice of rolling the tongu ALLLLLL the way back past the soft palate and inserting it into the nasal cavity. That's it. A complete description." I doubt that is a "complete description." Everybody wants to be an authority but who really knows? Does Kriyananda really know? Does Norm Paulsen really know? I doubt it. Just because something is repeated over and over again in books or on the internet doesn't make it true. "However, you MUST also ask another question. Does kechari mudra REALLY do anything useful in terms of spiritual developement? Lots of people in the position to have an informed opinion, say no. So, take this for what it's worth..." Lahiri Mahasaya gave a lot of importance to Kechari and from what I read it seems to be an integral part of the "traditional" Kriya system. I will trust his opinion on this matter over these other people. Of course Yoganandaji adjusted his system of Kriya so that it did not require Kechari...but this is a different matter. "Lahiri advised aainst EITHER of these methods [cutting and milking], and said kechari occured naturally in the spiritually ready disciple. Ananda carries both a booklet and a taped lecture on kechari that are sensible. If this is something you want to try, start by contacting Crystal Clarity." The Ananda tape teaches the milking method whcih Lahiri Mahasaya forbade. It also claims to teach Kechari which a part of the Kriya system not to be taught openly (assuming that the methods Kriyananda is teaching are in line with the Kriya system which I doubt.) I personally wouldn't accept this video even if somebody gave it to me. Edited by: Ringbearer7 at: 10/12/02 7:57:03 am
Ringbearer7 Registered User (10/11/02 6:01 pm) Reply	Re: Summary of the changes "First, like all exercises, acheiving this exercise is not and was never considered classically to be an essential step in roads to enlightenment. It happened to be adopted by Lahiri as part of his initiation of students. So not learning to do it is no obstacle to spirituality." I think if you read the traditional Kriya writings you will find that it is an essential part of Lahiri Mahasaya's Kriya? Yes, there are other paths that don't require Kechari (including the system of Kriya that Yoganandaji developed), but it seems quite essential in Lahiri Mahasaya's Kriya. "Does any of this have religious or spiritual content, other than expressing commitment to a certain line of ritual practices? I think not. There is a confusion of physiological response with spiritual experience." Most of us are in a physical body and we need to work with it to our spiritual advantage. It seems that the sensations in the spine and brain are at least in part physical and certainly the practice of yoga has physical effects. I don't think one can completely seperate the physical from the spiritual until a very high level is attained. In Kriya bliss is experienced (at least in the beginning - which is pretty much all I can comment on) in the spine and brain - these are locations in the physical body and it is these sensations that draw the mind inward - I think "physiological response" is quite important in yoga, at least for those of us with physical bodies. Kechari is a physical posture and is essentially no different from keeping a straight spine during meditation - both are postures of the physical body that have a positive spiritual benefit. I am of the mind that most of the authorities are clueless. I am sure there are a few people who know but I don't think they are talking...and I can't say that I blame them. Edited by: Ringbearer7 at: 10/11/02 9:09:52 pm
srflongago Registered User (10/12/02 3:43 am) Reply	Re: Summary of the changes For Ringbearer: Yours are cogent comments. Kriya has lately been identified with the teachings of Lahiri. As the Yoga of Action of the Gita, Kriya has a very long tradition. I was speaking in terms of that tradition, viewing Lahiri as a master who, like all accomplished teachers, put together his own "curriculum" selected out of traditional materials suitable for his teaching style. Other masters had differing "curricula" suitable to their teaching styles. One teaching style may get through to a student, another may not. There are many ways to draw the mind inward. Kechari Mudra is just one of them. Drawing the mind inward itself is only one step along a path far beyond the physical states resulting from exercises. These exercises are a preparation, not a final end in themselves. My uncomfortableness is with confusion between training to attain physiological states and achieving life experiences that lead to sprituality. Many who have learned and practiced the most demanding exercises have acquired along the line little love, compassion, or sense of unity of the self and the universal consciousness of mankind. The ends are lost, they have settled for the means.
Ringbearer7 Registered User (10/12/02 8:17 am) Reply	Re: Summary of the changes "Yours are cogent comments. Kriya has lately been identified with the teachings of Lahiri." From what I know there are some apsects of Kriya that are common to other forms of Yoga: Kechari mudra, Jyoti (Yoni) mudra, Maha mudra, etc. (though the specifics of how these are practiced within the Kriya system - which seems critical - I don't believe is general knowledge.) On the otherhand, there are some fundamenal and essential components of Kriya that I have not seen or read of in other systems of Yoga and seem to be unique to the system that was handed down by Lahiri Mahasaya. For this reason I think it is completely appropriate to identify Kriya Yoga with Lahiri Mahasaya - these things would probably be completely unknown today if it wasn't for him.
srflongago Registered User (10/12/02 9:21 am) Reply	Re: Summary of the changes Unknown in the West perhaps, but forever present in the Gita, the holiest of holies for a half billion people. You might list for me any parts of Lahiri's program that you think may be original with him. I will try to trace them back historically through source libraries available to me. I think of him as a very able, but very traditional, Vedantist. It would be illuminating to explore the extent to which this is true or false. Edited by: srflongago at: 10/12/02 9:40:14 am
Ringbearer7 Registered User (10/12/02 10:10 am) Reply	Re: Summary of the changes "Unknown in the West perhaps, but forever present in the Gita, the holiest of holies for a half billion people." Well, I don't think it is possible to learn Kriya yoga from the Gita. As far as the East and West go, I doubt there is very much difference in terms of knowledge of Kriya - in both places we have many so-called "authorities" but probably very few who really know. I would imagine there are at least as many scam artists in India as there are in the West. Actually the Indians have some advantage in this regard because their being Indian lends an aura of authenticity for naive Westerners. "You might list for me any parts of Lahiri's program that you think may be original with him." I don't think it is appropriate to go into detail here - what I am thinking of has to do with aspects of Kriya beyond the 1st initiation, but I am no scholar on this matter so I may very well be mistaken about this.
srflongago Registered User (10/12/02 11:48 am) Reply	Re: Summary of the changes I had 2 versions of the 4 Kriya initiations myself, one set from Yogananda. There is a substantial very detailed literature on the Gita and the exercises it contains under the dual interpretation of war, internal between the faculties, external historical. Lahiri was an outstanding exponent of the dual interpretation. The literature I am referring to streches from 500AD to 1800 AD. The the scholar-Yogis of those times, Hindu and Buddhist, were very profound in their accounts of Yoga. They had a very crritical audience, since then every Brahmin family had Yogi members as a matter of course. But probably this is not the place for historical concerns.
Ringbearer7 Registered User (10/12/02 2:55 pm) Reply	Re: Summary of the changes srflongago, There is something I have been wondering about. Where you really around in the early years with Yoganadaji? There are some things that you have said in the past that have made me feel somewhat sceptical concerning this claim. It seems that most everyone here has taken you at your word but in my opinion it is fairly implausible. I hope I don't offend you by saying these things, but I think a bit a scepticism is healthy - a yogi should have a scientific and discerning attitude in my opinion. [note: Ok, I'm convinced!] Edited by: Ringbearer7 at: 10/14/02 1:29:47 pm
srflongago Registered User (10/12/02 6:00 pm) Reply	Re: to ringbearer7 message deleted after receipt. Edited by: srflongago at: 10/13/02 12:32:26 pm
Ringbearer7 Registered User (10/12/02 8:34 pm) Reply	Re: Summary of the changes How do I write you privately? I understand your desire for anonymity.
member108 Registered User (10/16/02 6:33 am) Reply	Re: Summary of the changes This is an anonymous posting board. Always take what you read with a grain of salt. However, srflongago�s messages have been consistent with what I myself know to be true.
soulcircle Registered User (11/27/02 11:44 pm) Reply	Attitude Three days at Ammachi's eight day program included discussion of Kriya. The program ended Nov. 25th, 2002 at 11AM. She sat down at 9PM the night before and didn't get up from her chair til 4200 hugs later when she rose to minsiter to my friend, and kriyaban, Jason Becker www.jasonbecker.com who is presently in a wheelchair. They expect to have a free online video of her hugging him, by Dec. 10th or sooner at www.ammachi.org ____________________________ Attitude is the key! A kind person (srflongago speaks of compassion) will flow naturally into a life of value idividually and for larger society A meditator can practice for many, many, many years and get up from meditation and have a fight with an associate or family member. I have done this myself! Meditation can lead one to inner silence where truth can be experienced. It is a tool, but insufficient alone. *It does not work like mathematics.* Kindness is the key. Those of you writing and posting out of kindness, out of the process of healing from the meanness of some lifelong kriya practicioners, out of balanced hearts and minds are of great help to me. More complete comments of Ammachi's are in this non-srf teachings and ideal section >>>Ammachi 2002. Again attitude is the key! Edited by: soulcircle at: 11/28/02 12:04:41 am
username Registered User (11/28/02 5:04 am) Reply	Re: Summary of the changes What did ammachi say of kriya? Was she talking or someone else? Was she talking of the SRF type of kriya? Kriya has many different meanings.
soulcircle Registered User (11/28/02 5:42 am) Reply	Amma speaks directly in response to question Novenber 21st in front of one thousand people maybe half of them were former/present ananda or srf kriyabans, amma was asked does she teach kriya yoga, the "express bus" (questioner's term which she used in the midst of her Malayam language in reply) to God. In that she expounded at length without focusing her feelings and thoughts on technique, is left to your interpretation. My interpretation is that without criticising srf's thousands of sunday talks about meditation, meditation, meditation, meditation....she was pulling those willing to listen past some of the controvery and failure of srf to a new day of attitude, and then the tools of meditation.................................. versus where i perceive srf is at fault...... techiques, with occasional devotion, compassion, and socially healthy lives. Here is some of what she said at length through an interpreter. *Quote:* amma often takes questions (live.. unrehearsed.. from anyone) last night in a hall comfortably hosting one thousand people she took a large amount of time answering as it turned out she spent the whole time on two questions going at great length and with stories an srf kriyaban asked about the express bus to god, and about reaching a time in meditation where the heart and breath are still. he asked about kriya yoga one feeling from amma any of us can meditate for years for many years and then get up and get into a rage with a friend, family member or associate also there are many teaching, all life is an express bus she expressed the feeling first learn, absorb all a master's teaching only after that if you wish narrow the focus to one aspect like the heart being still to not know all the teaching of a master first....you pollute the teaching only in silence is truth heard the importance of meditation in experiencing inner silence encouraging all to have a day a month in silence amma expressed and repeated our love and compassion with an absense of fear ...with the grace of god...are paramount amma feels we learn to avoid forcing something ******be the spontaneous opening of a flower bud, one petal at a time**** so that the pure essence/the sweetness comes through she said all these and many more things with stories around the kriyaban's question she also cautioned against quoting a master, one reason being that the teaching is polluted when taken out of context many sweet and helpful feelings she brought forth she remarked on faith, patience. enthusiam and optimism ... humility allows knowledge to flow into us without fear always be a beginner Edited by: soulcircle at: 12/1/02 3:31:12 am
soulcircle Registered User (11/28/02 5:57 am) Reply	polluting so we all see i have quoted her out of context and polluted her teaching
etzchaim Registered User (2/16/03 11:39 am) Reply	Kechari Mudra I found this in a text, an English translation of Abhinavagupta?s Paratishika Vivarana (A Trident of Wisdom), the spelling of Kechari is made with a kha and not a ka, so I'm wondering if this is exactly the same word (i.e., is it kha or ka?). If it's the same word, then people might find this interesting: Page 7: ?5. Khechari-samata. Khechari: A.G. in L.V. (another text, Laghu Vrtti) says, ?khechari bodhabhumisancharini sati iyam samvic-chaktih? (p.2). ?Khechari? is the Consciousness-power that moves about on the plane of bodha or the universal Divine Consciousness. What are the characteristics of this bodha? A.G. says, ?They are avikalpatvam, purnatvam. Bodha or the Universal Divine Consciousness is (1) thought-free (avikalpa) and (2) is is purna i.e., whole, complete, undivided, unconditioned, integral. In one word it is not limited or determined by any external condition. Khechari, therefore, is the shakti that pertains to this lane of consciousness. ?Samata means ?sameness?. So ?Khechari-samatam vrajet? means he acquires the same integral, unconditioned, undetermined consciousness as that of Shiva or the Divine. ?One who does not rise to that level does not have the experience of khechari. As A.G. puts it in L.V., ?Tatprakaraparijnane tu na khechari abodharupe vedyamshe sancharanat? (L.V., p. 2), ?one who does not have the experience of that level does not have the experience of khechari, because his consciousness moves about in abodha which is only ogjective-external like blue color or jar or cloth or internal like pleasure, pain, etc.? Abodha in this context is a technical term meaning empirical consciousness. A.G. clarifies this idea further by saying: ?Tata eva vedyaih niladibhirni-yantriteti na purnashaktih (L.V.2). Since the empirical consciousness is determined, conditioned by ?blue?, etc, therefore it is not purna, not integral, not unconditioned. The consciousness of the khecari level alone is unconditioned and hence purna or whole in itself.? Perhaps what was meant by ?Khechari will happen automatically?, has a different meaning than the physical mudra. The mudra itself will set up the vibration, but just like the use of the Wisdom Mudra, performed with the fingers, does not bring wisdom in an of itself, the Khechari Mudra will not bring about Khechari itself, just facilitate the movement towards... Edited by: etzchaim at: 2/17/03 6:49:32 am

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