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chrisparis
Registered User
(6/5/02 6:57 am)
Reply 		Re: Is ZEN Superior to Yoga?

Edited by: chrisparis at: 11/22/02 7:33:35 am
srflongago
Registered User
(6/5/02 12:17 pm)
Reply 		Re: Is ZEN Superior to Yoga?
Kamala, Sri Durga, Oliver Black, Rajarsi had Kriya initiations from Yogananda. Those who took over after Rajarsi's death as far as I know did not have Kriya initiations FROM YOGANANDA, at least none have been claimed to my knowledge. My knowledge may be incomplete.

In the Kriya school those initiations from a master are regarded as essential teaching credentials. Besides, no line of succession was provided by Yogananda beyond Rajarsi. Yogananda is said not to have left a will, at least none has ever surfaced. I personally think that no succession was intended by either Yogananda or Rajarsi, because Yogananda often said that he could have no successor.

None of the post 1955 successors had been experienced Kriya teachers, however sincere they were. They had previously had other functions at Mothercenter and Encinitas. They learned "on the job" .

This does not mean that the organization is ersatz, just that the rocky start may have had a long term impact, and that finding that many teachers are not very good at what they are doing is no surprise. But this is also the case in most other large organizations, whether Vedic, Catholic, Buddhist, or Zen.




Each person must judge for his or her self that what is being offered is appropriate for them.

chrisparis
Registered User
(6/5/02 1:47 pm)
Reply 		Re: Is ZEN Superior to Yoga?

Edited by: chrisparis at: 11/22/02 7:34:12 am
aVulcanThinker
Registered User
(6/5/02 2:15 pm)
Reply 		Re: Is ZEN Superior to Yoga?
Do you mean that neither Daya Mata nor Mrinalini Mata nor Ananda Mata nor Uma Mata received initiation from Yogananda?

To the best of my knowledge, Bhaktananda and Bimalananda and Anandamoy received initiation directly from Yogananda. Is this correct?

srflongago
Registered User
(6/5/02 3:43 pm)
Reply 		Re: Is ZEN Superior to Yoga?
Avulcanthinker, Chela2020

I am not sure how much background details bear on the present and the future. But...I was referring to Faye and Virginia Wright, who were on the board after Rajarsi's death. After arriving from Salt Lake City with their mother in about 1930, an all Mormon family, for very many years Faye was Yogananda's private secretary, Richard was hotel manager for Mothercenter, Virginia and their mother had no titles. For many years, Florina Darling looked after Lynn.

I do not know anything about Bhaktananda and Bimalananda and Anandamoy and Uma Mata, they are of a later generation. I am, after all, from the distant past.

Yes, Yogananda did indeed say there could be no successor to him. I heard this many times.

Religious founders usually say this, don't you think? Christ? Mohammad?

I hope noone has been so so self-proud as to think they have played that role. All the scriptures say that true Yogis lack self-pride.

Edited by: srflongago at: 6/5/02 3:54:56 pm
chrisparis
Registered User
(6/6/02 9:56 am)
Reply 		Re: Is ZEN Superior to Yoga?
(This message was left blank)

Edited by: chrisparis at: 11/22/02 7:35:06 am
gardendiva
Registered User
(6/6/02 10:16 am)
Reply 		Re: Is ZEN Superior to Yoga?
"How different from the passage in the Autobiography where PY says Lahiri Mahasaya said Christians should pray every day, and then read the Bible, Muslims should pray 5 times a day, etc., and that he opened kriya to followers of all religions."

chrisparis...
I believe I heard the Dalai Lama expressing the same sentiments, not long ago. He was advising Christians, in particular I think, to stay with their tradition of origin, that it was just as useful and valuable in it's essence, as Tibetan Buddhism.
That being said, I think there is validity as well, in leaving one's tradition of origin, if there is something else that calls to the heart and feels more genuine.

chrisparis
Registered User
(6/6/02 11:13 am)
Reply 		Re: Is ZEN Superior to Yoga?
(This message was left blank)

Edited by: chrisparis at: 11/22/02 7:35:35 am
gardendiva
Registered User
(6/6/02 12:48 pm)
Reply 		Re: Is ZEN Superior to Yoga?
"But what about the other question? Does anyone else think some of the problems the organizations are facing might stem from the fact that THEY DON'T DO KRIYA YOGA, they just worship PY?"

How can we really know about the BOD's spiritual practice? Can we call them up and ask?

They just MIGHT be practicing Kriya. Does Kriya practice alone guarantee that the organization would be run better? Perhaps, IF Kriya is practiced properly and IF that particular soul is advanced enough to take advantage of the effects, then one might surmise the actions of that individual would be guided by true wisdom and compassion. But they are human beings, and human beings are complex creatures.

However, I think you may be on to something with the idea that PY is worshipped so much that the teachings themselves kind of play second fiddle. I was speaking with another devotee who pointed out the fact that quite a lot of material, from written works to films and recordings of PY are apparently sitting around MW waiting to be "edited." Why such painstaking efforts? To paint PY in such a light as to not be human anymore? To "perfect" him? And why should we do that? How will that help devotees with their own personal spiritual evolution?

We're getting a little off topic here, and perhaps another thread should be created? In any case, it's been an interesting discussion and probably one worth continuing.

chrisparis
Registered User
(6/6/02 4:33 pm)
Reply 		Re: Is ZEN Superior to Yoga?
(This message was left blank)

Edited by: chrisparis at: 11/22/02 7:36:01 am
chela2020
Registered User
(6/6/02 7:10 pm)
Reply 		Re: Is ZEN Superior to Yoga?
chrisparis,

Now Gnostic Christianity I do find interesting. It is so different from say, fundalmentalism. I know from my own studies of the Bible that there is no such thing as a burning hell. The problem is having to listen to it from others, even though I know that there is no "burning hell" and so I am not going there, and even though I know that Christ is not the only way, I don't like hearing it. It is the preaching that bothers me.

I agree with you about not believing that an incarnate is infallible.

I agree with you about knowing nothing about the spiritual development of another person, not even your own. Your statement "not even myself considering the things I sometimes hear coming out of my mouth," reminds me of something you posted earlier today under SRF/YSS. I am still laughing.There are things that come out of my mouth that make me wonder about myself at times, too. I know that posting isn't what you were referring to, but I had to bring it up because it was funny.

In regards to Mother Center, I feel that all that we can know for sure is, they are on the path to God, even if it appears otherwise to some of us. They are also having their own struggles on the path, and it is sad that some end up being in the line of fire.

Edited by: chela2020 at: 6/18/02 8:20:32 pm
chrisparis
Registered User
(6/7/02 6:13 am)
Reply 		Re: Is ZEN Superior to Yoga?
(This message was left blank)

Edited by: chrisparis at: 11/22/02 7:36:30 am
gardendiva
Registered User
(6/7/02 6:51 am)
Reply 		Re: Is ZEN Superior to Yoga?
chrisparis...

You can enable your private message tool quite easily. See "Meeting Place...." section, "Purpose and how this will work" topic. That way people can get in touch with you while still maintaining your anonymity, if that's what you desire.

Edited by: gardendiva at: 6/7/02 7:35:56 am
chela2020
Registered User
(6/7/02 11:30 am)
Reply 		Re: Is ZEN Superior to Yoga?
chrisparis,

If I could, I would become a monastic in SRF, then I would get their goat, and then I would get to go to India where I would love to be. Just joking. So in answer to your question, it is funny to think that they would consider India punishment.

I guess it is that I consider everyone on the path to God. As with SRF, I feel in the beginning they were very well meaning, but I can't judge now whether they ALL are or are not as well meaning. But I still consider them all on the path. Perhaps the path for many just has more potholes, or like you put it, people are going around in a circle, but eventually God draws us all back to him. We are all saved, and therefore, on the path. And it is a struggle for all of us. We too can fail just as easily as the next person.

I agree with you about using psychic powers and feel that they are obstacles on the path to Self-realization.

I just found a used book today called "The Guru" by Manly Hall. He writes about this man Nadu: "I stood beside my father as the blessed Guru approached, and as he came near, a feeling of intense longing and desire came over me, so that I ran forward and threw myself sobbing into the arms of the great man. The Guru embraced me with extreme tenderness; then he said, "Nadu Charagii, You are my disciple; leave all else and come with me along the old road fo the Gods." So a Guru will tell a person that he is their Guru.




Edited by: chela2020 at: 6/18/02 8:22:28 pm
Should Free
Registered User
(6/10/02 10:49 pm)
Reply
ezSupporter
 Re: Is Zen superior to Yoga?
I have been saying for some time that master's most important thought and teaching for us householders is this:

"God is Everything."

This teaching, this thought, is all about integration, it is the opposite of monastic fragmentation, it is the bases for overcoming all duality and polarities.

Lynn Seiser PhD. has a wonderful definition of Zen.

"Zen accepts all inclusively with laughter, the everyday divinity of everything and everyone, as it all simply is"

I rather do not comment so each one gets his/her own conclusions.

motlom
Registered User
(6/11/02 8:03 am)
Reply 		Re: Is Zen superior to Yoga?
Great thread!

I find that any philosophy or concept that attempts to frame reality eventually ends up being a trap. Reality Itself eventually bites me on the butt, and something deep inside urges me to "let go" of all concepts (I won't claim to be able to do this). "I pray God to rid me of God" says Meister Eckhardt. All of my concepts fall short.

I don't recall ever reading that "God is Everything" is a concept held in Zen's varied philosophies (someone correct me if I'm mistaken). I'm reminded of the "not two, not one" concept that is taught in some Zen schools (yes, it is yet another concept, but it helps to make my point). The body and the mind - not two, not one. The inner and the outer - not two, not one. The inner and the outer define each other, so they are not two. And yet, in order for them to define each other - in order for there to be definition - they must have boundaries. The inner and the outer are therefore not one, either. Not this, not that - "netti, netti".

Zen makes this "neither/nor" point over and over again. I recall a story (I'm having to put this in my own words, so bear with me). A Zen master was asked about whether the goal of the spiritual life was to touch the "Real Self", or to reach a state of "no-self". He replied, "Well, you know, everything the teachers, gurus, and Enlightened Beings say about the Real Self is not quite right." He chuckled. "But then," he continued, "everything they say about the state of 'no-self' is not quite right, either."

What I'm getting at is that any idea or concept, whether it be Pantheism (which says "God is everything"), Panentheism ("God is in everything, and yet transcendent"), or any other "ism", is an attempt to frame Reality in thought. These frameworks may provide a new way of looking at things. They may inspire me, or change my attitude (temporarily) for the better. In other words, they may provide some relief. Relief, yes - but not Release. Krishnamurti used to express it this way: "The word is not the thing", or, "the thought is not the thing." This has been my experience - it may or may not hold true for anyone reading this.

Some writers claim that the consequences of clinging to an "ism" may be even more grave. Kramer and Alstad write:

Quote:
"Pantheism, which simply says everything is God, is an even higher level of abstraction [than Oneness], as it does away with dualism altogether. A straightforward pantheism may be intellectually appealing because of its simplicity and internal consistency, but it has grave moral difficulties. If everything is God, how can the actions of any one part of God be better or worse than any other? How can any trait (love) be better than any other (greed)?"


- -

Three students went to a Zen Master with questions, as they had been having an argument.

The first said, "Sir, doesn't the spiritual path require great effort? Doesn't it take amazing stamina, strength of will, striving, seeking? As it is the most important thing in Life, shouldn't one be ever mindful of this?"

The Master thought for a moment. "You're right", he said.

"But Sir", said the second student, "isn't the essence of the spiritual life that of learning to let go? To cease effort, to stop striving, and just learn to participate with the Tao, with Life? To realize that all of our striving won't add one second to our lives? Don't the Enlightened Ones say 'to arrive, stop traveling?'"

"You're right", said the Master.

"Wait a minute, Sir!", said the third student. "They can't both be right!"

"And you're right, too!"

- -

The moral? "Netti, netti".

Edited by: motlom at: 6/11/02 9:47:03 am
Should Free
Registered User
(6/11/02 11:35 pm)
Reply
ezSupporter
 Re: Is Zen superior to Yoga?
Excellent posting Motlom. Wonderful! Brilliant points.

The all embracing, all accepting Zen philosophy has limitations -- it can't be different! To be aware of those limitations is very important.

There is a time to accept and a time to resist (I wrte about this before). We can't resist all the time, or accept all the time.

But in SRF we have been brainwashed into the opposite extreme -- much, more toxic in my perspective -- RESIST, RESIST, RESIST.

But then we have a brother Backtananda who candidly says" "The only way to find God is to completely surrender to Him."

You know what that means? Surrender means acceptance -- they are almost synonyms. Is he preaching Zen? Surrender is a devotional form of acceptance -- we accept because we have faith that what is happening is the will of God. " Quite a difficult practice! Think of those times when you went through a painful or very unfair situation. You need a lot of faith in God I tell you, to do not feel resenttful even. But anyway, easy or difficult, the point is that Brother Backtananda is obviously teaching something that rings true, isn't it?

Well, has anyone ever read anything in the lessons in regard to surrender. Check it out, you will find NOTHING!!!!

Then, what are we are left with? A set of lessons brain washing us into RESISTING, RESIST RESIST. But to find God you need to surrender????? Conclusion the lessons do not lead to God --where do they lead you then? Where many of us are stuck. After resisting and resisting and resisting, one day you get sick, or you intuitively feel that something is wrong with the lessons, and even with the way you were instructed to practice meditation (in the lessons), and you feel the need to learn to accept.

As you begin looking for a way out of your misery, you intuitively feel that you need to develop ACCEPTANCE in order to heal the tension accumulated by decades of RESISTING. As a friend devotee told me, "I was resisting even my own breathing."

Horrible teachings Motlom. Such grotesque mistakes in the lessons! And they are so obvious to me now. Only very poor teachers do what these nuns did -- teaching how to attain God through brute force! No one will make it that way. But many became, are becoming and will become sick as a result of so much resisting and the accumulated tension that follows naturally from such approach to life. I wonder if the nuns were drank when they wrote those lessons -- and I'm NOT talking about being drank with God.

motlom
Registered User
(6/12/02 8:54 am)
Reply 		Re: Is Zen superior to Yoga?
Thanks Should Free!

My own experience with the SRF teachings is like yours, Should Free. Under the guise of "going within", I learned to do everything but go within. I wasn't supposed to get angry, so when anger came up, I looked the other way. I wasn't supposed to be jealous, greedy, fearful, proud, lustful, lazy, etc., as these things were not "spiritual"; so when they came up, I fought them, resisted them. To resist something in me is to create a conflict, a battle, a division in myself. Therefore, the path as I was on it could never hope to bring about integration or wholeness. This is astounding when one considers that "yoga" is supposed to mean "union" - not just the superficial and childish meaning of union with some "other", but rather a basic union and integration among the "parts" of my self. If I'm am not integrated within myself, can I hope for any kind of union with what I call God, Spirit, or whatever? If I devolop the habit of looking away from myself, then obviously I'm not "going within". I will never actually encounter myself this way. It amazes me how so many paths claim to take one within oneself, yet end up training one to do just the opposite.

After my whole life came crashing down (and I mean that literally and figuratively), I finally had to look within myself, to encounter myself. I'm still having to do it. I "outgrew" the SRF teachings, at least the way they were presented to me in the Lessons (I'm not saying this with any pride)

On the other point, I have mixed feelings about the whole notion of "surrender". I tend to question everything, so I apologize if this post gets tedious. In keeping with the spirit of this thread, I'm attempting to look at the question of surrender in a "Zen-ful" way.

If by surrender one means "to cease fighting", then yes, definitely I agree. Surrender is very important. But just how does one come to surrender? Can one "acquire" surrender the way one acquires wealth, or knowledge, etc. If someone (whom I deem knows what's best for me) tells me that I must get surrender, and I try to cultivate it, is that surrender? Is it possible to cultivate surrender, to work toward surrender? I'm starting from what I (or somebody else) has declared is a place of no-surrender (or not-enough-surrender) and I'm embarking on a journey toward something that I call surrender. The journey that I'm making toward surrender - is that surrender? The goal that I have in my head that I call surrender - is that surrender? Or is it just an ideal, a mental picture, of what I think surrender should be, is supposed to be? If I'm attempting to move toward what I think should be, then I'm exercising control, which is not surrender. This mental picture I have of what surrender is supposed to be, was fabricated by the not-yet-surrendered self; this mental image is therefore a product of control itself. My "non-surrendered" self has decided what my goal is and how I should go about getting it. Can control ever give birth to surrender? If I'm having to cultivate surrender, to work toward it, then I must already be meeting some resistance within myself: work implies resistance. To resist means to fight, which is the opposite of surrender. Therefore, the attempt to cultivate surrender is to keep fighting. Obviously, the cultivation of "surrender" can never bring about real surrender.

Is surrender necessary on the spiritual path? What does "necessary" mean? To me, to say it is necessary means that it is a vital ingredient toward reaching some goal; a means to an end, an end that someone else deemed important. But if surrender is only a means of getting somewhere or gaining something, then it is a form of control - it is not surrender at all. If I am attempting to control my own "spiritual destiny", then what have I surrendered to? My own ideals, aspirations, hopes, dreams, however "spiritual" they may be, are now in control. But these ideals, hopes, and dreams are a part of "me", so the question becomes: who has surrendered to whom? Furthermore, to strive to reach a goal requires effort. Effort implies resistance. To resist is to fight, which is the opposite of surrender: I'm right back where I started! See how complicated this all gets, when I really look at it?

To see all this within myself, without any judgement, is the thing. That's Zen. As someone said, "the seeing is the freeing." Another Zen saying: "The whole notion of Zen can be summed up in the verb 'seeing'". If I see that, from moment to moment, I'm resisting, fighting, striving to reach a goal, etc., if I see all this clearly, then perhaps the fighting can cease. Then there can be surrender. But this surrender is not a means to an end; it is the end and the means. "The first step is the last step." The end is the means.

So for me, to say that one needs to surrender in order to find God is not quite right. To surrender is to find God. That's better.

What I object to is when the notion of "surrender" is used to coerce people into "obeying" some higher authority, because someone claimed that to do that is what's best for them. Surrender only has meaning if I am surrendering to something - this is true - but if that something is an organization (such as SRF), or whatever, then I feel it is counterproductive. If surrender means not to question, not to challenge (as it often does), then I feel it is dangerous. To surrender emotionally is highly seductive. It feels like letting go of ego. Yet how gratifying such emotional experiences are! They leave one feeling all "puffed up" about being humble!


Edited by: motlom at: 6/12/02 12:02:06 pm
soulcircle
Registered User
(6/12/02 6:55 pm)
Reply 		Re: Is Zen superior to Yoga?
Should Free,

You say above....

Quote:
Well, has anyone ever read anything in the lessons in regard to surrender. Check it out, you will find NOTHING!!!!


7:32PM PST, going to the lessons...

8:02PM....searched in many of Yogananda's lessons, no mention of surrender or use of the word...so far
In Lesson 14, "Humbleness Verses Egotism," on quick examination, I don't see the word surrender, is it in there?

Does anyone find the word surrender in the lessons?

Repeating, does anyone find the word surrender in them?

Maybe, I'll look again, maybe for an hour or two....I went to them thinking, I will find surrender in the lessons, and 30 minutes later, I sit here, is Should Free right?

soulcircle

chela2020
Registered User
(6/12/02 8:12 pm)
Reply 		/
(This message was left blank)

Edited by: chela2020 at: 6/30/02 2:30:03 pm
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