Ananda on the SRFWalrus Board

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srfwalrus ezOP (12/14/01 6:21 pm) Reply	Ananda on the SRFWalrus Board I created this section to contain the discussions people seem to want to have about Ananda. I really really can't blame them, but that is not the focus of this board. Unfortunately many SRF'ers are put off by discussions comparing Ananda and SRF. WE BELIEVE YOU in most cases, but I don't want to put off wounded or recoverying SRF people who want serious discussions about their own experiences. We are not looking to replace SRF in our lives and we are not looking to resolve the conflicts between SRF and the former VP. Many of us have been hurt just as bad. This board is just for us, or those wanting to help others. Ananda related posts in other areas will be moved here or deleted. Sorry to single you all out. I am walking a rasors edge as many will think this is an Ananda board and turn away if I don't keep it focused on our own issues. Edited by: srfwalrus at: 12/14/01 6:23:15 pm
pschuppe Registered User (12/16/01 10:51 am) Reply	Re: Ananda on the SRFWalrus Board Dear Walrus, Thanks for your continued patience and discrimination in dealing with a testy, difficult situation vis a vis Ananda and the discussions on this board. I know there's a knee-jerk reaction thing that happens so often with people, either on one side or another of the various debates. Let me make a few points and ask some questions as well in response: *Quote:* "We are not looking to replace SRF in our lives and we are not looking to resolve the conflicts between SRF and the former VP. Many of us have been hurt just as bad. This board is just for us, or those wanting to help others. " That's a debatable point. If you're saying that that was the original purpose of the board, then that's what it was--end of story. However it looks to me like the actual use of the board has evolved a bit since then: I see people at many points along the spectrum of either wanting to stay actively involved with SRF (the "improve SRF" concept) or wanting to get on with their lives in different directions and leave SRF behind. That's a pretty broad spectum. "Replacing SRF" with another organization is not the only possibility for those at the "leave SRF behind" end of the spectrum. Part of the debate centers on what constitutes Master's work. If one accepts SRF's dictum that Master's work IS SRF, then one is probably more likely to live on the "improve SRF" end of the spectrum. But numerous people have brought up old writings and statements from Master that indicate he wanted to make a much broader impact on the world and society than what ANY (yes, ANY) one organization could do. We are all a part of that broader work, whether directly involved with SRF or in some degree of conflict with it, or whatever. Ananda members are, in many cases also SRF members--though in most of those cases, not particularly active ones. Still, our involvement has been continuous in one sense, in that we've faced continuous opposition from SRF. For example, every month many of us, including me personally pay into a legal fund to continue to try to resolve the legal battles with SRF. SRF doesn't own Master, or his writings. He copyrighted in his own name and didn't transfer those copyrights to SRF (or at least SRF has never been able to convince the courts that he did after 12 years of trying). I have to deal with SRF, whether I like it or not. I have a very direct, personal interest in seeing what improvements can be made. The future of Master's work is at stake here. I'm involved with SRF in that, willy nilly. And frankly, the former VP isn't very interested in SRF at this stage of his life. He's pretty much given up on its leaders. None of the current SRF leadership is likely to live more than another 10-15 years. Of that remaining time, probably the window has pretty much closed on any openminded acceptance of new ideas or resolution. But, in one sense, SRF's leaders were correct, it never was personal between them and the former VP. He represented one flow of energy (the outward: bring Master's teachings to people where they're at), and they represented another (the inward: draw people to Master's teachings and keep them "pure"). The resolution of those two diverging directions isn't a personal issue, except that individual people with personalities and karma are involved. The rest of us, however, face the potential of many years of trying to deal with each other, and hopefully harmoniously. Can we find harmony? Going back to your post: Who is "US?" What are "our own issues?" Where does SRF stop and anyone else (whether Ananda member or any other affiliated or non-affiliated) begin? The lines are a little fuzzy. What constitutes "trying to help others"? I'm trying to help right now. Each of my posts has been an effort "to help others". But I can only offer the truth I've experienced in my life, which is very much connected with Ananda. Should I therefore not mention anything that might be helpful to someone, simply because the experience is "tainted" with the name "Ananda" lest someone take offense and think I'm therefore trying to promote Ananda? I hope not. And I sincerely hope that someone out there has been helped by something I said somewhere along the way. I certainly have been helped by this board, both through the effort required to think about the issues clearly and express my ideas, and, of course, in relating to and trying to understand the often challenging ideas that come back to in response to mine. It's a good process. Sometimes its good for people of different "crazinesses" to haggle with each other. I, for one, hope it can continue. Thanks, ps
WITNESS Unregistered User (12/16/01 11:32 am) Reply	Staying Focused For what it's worth I support Walrus in the decision to keep the main portion of the board focused on specifically SRF issues, while setting up this section for those who want to include Ananda-related material. (I just realized that, in this area at least, one can actually include that word and not have it turn into the curse-word symbol. How cool.)
premdas Registered User (12/16/01 11:47 am) Reply	Center everywhere Walrus & PSHUPPE Good discussion. My purpose in writing is not to get anyone to be like me nor to be on my "team". On the contrary; I used to be called a "Cosmic Concierge", because I often sent seekers onto other paths that were appropriate for them! On this board, I see fellow devotees (gurubais) suffering because of their relationship with an organization that has forgotten to show respect and love for them. This affects me as I care for Yogananda and all of his spiritual family. People are more important than things. I have been deeply involved with various spritual org.s that have shared Master's life & teaching. All encouraged me to follow MY path, and blessed me when it was time for me to leave their organizational construct, to move on to my next step. There is always an alternative. I never wanted to leave my Guru and I never had to; his loving presence comes to me in the challenges & blessing of daily life. Aren't we all spiritual pilgrims looking for temporary shelter until we're home in God? I want to be effective in my sadhana and service, so I seek satsanga with other strong devotees/disciples. I serve and pray with many who are close to Bliss. (I'm not making this up, nor am I bragging about my or others spirituality. It's just matter-of-factually true.) Environment is stronger than willpower. Just like I pick the clothes that suit my work/environment, I choose the environment that best serves my needs. SRF org. doesn't fit me comfortibly, I don't feel/see deep love (that I can relate to) in the eyes and bhav of the leaders. (I wanted to!). And I have seen this fire in other disciples. I seek them out. That is why I play here in this field with you all. Until we as disciples of this great guru can utter each others names without fear, until we really learn to love one another unconditionally, I don't believe we'll progress quickly in realization. Instead we suffer.... God is omnipresent and omniscient; we are never without Him. Thank you, Walrus for this Board (very efficient & clean), and your service to our Guru. Master's blessings upon you! Love to all our gurubais. Edited by: premdas at: 12/16/01 10:09:01 pm
srfwalrus ezOP (12/17/01 11:36 pm) Reply	Ananda Please post what ever you like in this section. I will maintain the same controls of behavior toward each other, but any topic is find. I am sad to have to isolate you all, and hope that someday SRF will will not have the prejudice they have learned. We are all part of Master's family.
premdas Registered User (12/21/01 6:16 pm) Reply	Being there To Mental; I am there. My best friends are there. My connection to Master is there. I have seen many lives changed and many souls find Yogananda through my gurubais' loving service to Master & the Divine. Ananda may well not be for you, but for me to allow your posting alledging Ananda's and Kriyananda's adharmic actions against Master, well, that would be like Arjuna not following Krishna's directive to fight the good battle! See my posting throughout this progressive sight. Also check out Ananda answers.com. Better yet, get to know us as we are. Those thousands serving Ananda in their kriya practice, healing prayer groups, karma yoga, devotion to guru, support of Master's family, promotion of Raja Yoga, tithing and contributions to the expansion of Yogananda's teachings, operating an ashram, maintaining 7 communities/towns, running a Yoga retreat where newcomers learn about pranayama & kriya, these thousand kriyabans would be shocked to learn of their naivity, their adharmic actions, their own deceit and their illegitimate belief that they are also master's own! While what others do with their lives is not our concern, Ananda members lead lives of service to Yogananda, their guru. Frankly, no other ray of Master's would have allowed my gurubais to serve as extensively as has Ananda, due in large part to the personality and character of our founder. In fact, a standing joke is that maybe Ananda should quit the battle with the SRF board and join up! A thousand plus kriyabans....This would be their biggest nightmare! You've never seen so many independent individualswith strong opinions and energy. Really, see for yourself. Stop judging us from fear. I wish all of my SRF gurubais deep holy day meditations, inner joy and blessings this Christmas and New Years. May all learn to practice the fundamental truths Guruji came to remind us of: Peace & the Love of Christ among brothers and sisters. Sincerely, Premdas
AumBoy Registered User (12/21/01 7:54 pm) Reply	A Tale of 2 Swans On one of Br. Anandamoy's tapes, he described a pair of white swans and a pair of black swans on the lake at Lake Shrine that did not get along with one another. They needed to have the whole lake to themselves, so eventually they had to be separated. Sounds familiar? I lived in an SRF ashram for many years. When I first became aware of the anandainfo.com site I went and read it. Ahhhhh. The pot calling the kettle black. A lot of stuff on the site are allegations and insinuations and half-truthes and innuendos. Murder by rumor. Sad. What happened to Truth? This is why I want to read the court transcripts. I want to see the behavior of SRF-hired counsel to see how they behaved, for SRF would have condoned this. When I first found out about the SRF lawsuits against Ananda, the first picture that popped into my mind was of a bunch of children playing in a sandbox and suddenly part of the group wanted to oust the other half. Many people who post against Ananda have not lived in an SRF ashram and have not lived in Ananda. I wish people would learn the think for themselves and endeavor to see God in all. Isn't that the point? Where is the Love and Forgiveness exemplified by Master in all of this? He walks with me and He talks with me and He tells me I am His own. Peace, Love, & Joy to all this Holyday Season!
Aumkara Registered User (12/26/01 10:41 pm) Reply	Re: An interesting website Dear Ella Mental, Your "Web site" starts off with mis-quoting The Disciple-Guru Relationship as Guru-Disciple Relationship. Ever read Autobiography of a Yogi 1st ed. page 3? This is the first page of text. Starting off with this lack of perception; it cast doubt as to the person responsible have any credibility at all. Have you ever visited Ananda? What was your experience? Having been part of Ananda for 15 years my experience is Swami is the kindest, most-respectful, loving person I ever met. More impressive, however, are the people who have followed his suggestions. They are so sweet and enjoyable and so individual! By practising the techniques of Kriya as Swami Kriyananda gave them to me I have experienced for myself ever deepening perceptions of spiritual truths. the proof of the pudding is in the eating. With Swami Kriyananda's suggestions many of my habits of such as uncontrolable anger, hatred and other self defeating emotional habits have been minimized or eliminated all together. I also have attracted a wonderful person to share my life by praying the way Swami suggested. You are welcome to the Wedding May 12 3:00 PM. And yes, we have maintained celibacy (2 1/2 years, with Masters grace we won't slip in the next 6 months before th wedding). I offer as a really interesting web site one with the only scientific investingation of Masters techniques. If any one knows of another Please post it. Thank you www.aummeditationresearch.com Blessings in Master, Aumkara Edited by: Aumkara at: 12/27/01 6:22:20 pm
chuckle Unregistered User (12/29/01 11:27 am) Reply	Scientific research Aumkara: you wrote: *Quote:* "I offer as a really interesting web site one with the only scientific investingation of Masters techniques. If any one knows of another Please post it. Thank you www.aummeditationresearch.com" While I appreciate your posting this link, I must say I am disappointed in what I saw on this website. The "research" shown there is anything but scientific: it violates just about every protocol for good research design. As a result, the data shown have absolutely no validity and are virtually meaningless. And the fanciful interpretations of that data are just that: fanciful. I don't wish to be unkind, but science is exacting in its demands, and the researchers--who should have known better!--have met none of the demands of experimental design. A first-year college student could have designed a better experiment. Fancy pictures and the use of sophisticated equipment do not make up for the shoddiness of the experiment. I mention this because in the Walrus section on the SRF teachings the use of science and scientific research is discussed at length. I think this is to be applauded. But we are obligated to meet the standards of good science.
Aumkara Registered User (12/30/01 8:33 pm) Reply	Re: Scientific research The research presented is accepted as a scientific study by the psychological research community. One does a baseline brain scan (EEG), introduces an effect (in this case meditation) and looks at the change. The work was also accepted for publication in "Bridges" the International Society for the study of Subtle Energy and Energy Medicine magazine. (ISSSEEM) That study was also funded out of my own pocket. Though we did many other experiments; Such as trying to track a person's progress as their techniques deepen often times the person would stop practicing, etc. It took a lot just to get enough data for that report. It also seems people that have lots of interest in research do not have much interest in meditating. Therefore, it did not seem to serve Master to do more research. Obviously, cash is another factor. One can do a much better study with more capital. Blessings in AUM and Divine Mother and May we all go deep in the New Year ever closer to our goal; oneness in God. Aumkara Edited by: Aumkara at: 12/30/01 8:37:41 pm
chuckle Unregistered User (12/31/01 12:06 am) Reply	Thanks for your reply, Aumkara Hi, Aumkara! I appreciate your reply, and I do wish to apologize for appearing to be snooty. It was not my intention to be mean. Your remarks show that you are aware of the challenges in designing good research (mainly $$$!!). I appreciate the efforts that you went to and I can appreciate the frustrations you must have experienced, but as you are undoubtedly aware, the efforts do have to be enormous, and good research is virtually impossible these days without funding via grants available through government, universities, and the corporate sector because of the large (often in the millions of $$) amounts needed to set up and carry out good, thorough research. However, this is what it takes as research of this kind is so complex. You mentioned in your reply the introduction of the independent variable (meditation) and measuring the effect (changes in the EEG). It sounds simple, but as you know there are so many others factors to be considered and controlled for; for example, just to set up proper controls to eliminate the effects of unwanted variables in research like this requires the use of literally hundreds of subjects to be statistically meaningful (and, as I'm sure you know all too well, havings hundreds of subjects creates its own problems!). I mention all this because I do think we need this kind of research in the meditation field, and it has been done over many years. However, as you know, much of this research has been criticized for shortcomings in design and/or lack of a proper theoretical framework behind the research. Many scientists refuse to even consider this field seriously because so much bad research has been done and they view the whole endeavor as "airy-fairy new age stuff." (Personally, I'm not sure we can quantify devotion through EEG readings). A professor of mine scoffed at the entire field. Still, the field is emerging with rewarding results. I do applaud your efforts, though, as I'm sure Master does. The Aims and Ideals he set forth show that he was interested in the use of science in religion and we need more of it. Blessings to you!
Aumkara Registered User (12/31/01 8:39 pm) Reply	Re: Thanks for your reply, Aumkara Dear Chuckle, Thank you for your great reply! The established scientific world is not likely to want to try to measure the infinite. In the book Shaped by Saints, Devi Mukherjee relates a story of some researchers who tried to measure the brain wave patterns of a Himalayan yogi, Pahari Baba. He makes the patterns dance every where then disappear as he went into a trance state! When he comes out he says by way of explanation," I was not in my body at the time; therefore there were no waves. Practice yoga, and you too will eventually reach this state." He made the further comment: "Your science can destroy life and material objects. The yoga science can destroy objects and re-create them at will." Blessings on your yoga practices and may we all reach our goal: Oneness with the one causal force in the Universe! Aumkara
chuckle Unregistered User (1/1/02 3:58 pm) Reply	Ho, Ho! Great story, Aumkara! Yes, I agree, the scientific world is not yet ready, despite what we read about science and yoga coming together, to measure the Infinite. We definitely will need another "Scientific Revolution," another paradigm shift, a la Thomas Kuhn, before we can accept scientifically the nature of Reality.
PCA23 Registered User (3/29/02 9:15 pm) Reply	Re: An interesting website Hello Mental, I just went to the site you recommended and I see there quotes from Mr. Walters that "his teachings are better than Masters" and the we "can only come to Master through him". How interesting!!!! I'd appreciate comments.
Pig Ma Registered User (3/29/02 10:04 pm) Reply	Re: An interesting website Dear PCA23, It sounds like you were at a website that slanders Ananda and their leader Swami Kriyananda. I've never read anything from the Ananda website or their books, literature, etc. that says that. It's okay if you are not drawn to Ananda or SRF. There are other ways to obtain the teachings, thanks to the wonderful tool of the internet. Some of those ways are listed here on the walrus, I can't remember exactly where at this point. I wish you the best on your spiritual journey!! In case you haven't read much here yet, just so you know I was a 16 year member of SRF, who recently visited and loved Ananda and the people, and I now feel my sadhana has taken on a more independent approach that honors fellow kriyabans and truth seekers of all religions, regardless of organization affiliation.
PCA23 Registered User (3/31/02 6:18 pm) Reply	Re: An interesting website Dear Pig Ma, Thank you for your kind reply.
pschuppe Registered User (4/1/02 9:11 pm) Reply	Re: An interesting website Dear PCA23, I've lived at Ananda for more than 20 years, and worked with Kriyananda directly for much of that time. I've attended hundreds, maybe thousands of his classes, lectures, and other events. I've never heard him say or even imply either of the things you mention that that website apparently quotes him as having said. (I went there but couldn't find where you read those things.) He wouldn't, because to do so would be a denial of everything he's dedicated his life to, which is being a disciple of Master. Blessings and Godspeed to you in whatever direction your path back to God takes you, ps Edited by: pschuppe at: 4/1/02 9:13:43 pm
David Deep Registered User (4/3/02 11:18 am) Reply	Re: An interesting website I was involved with Ananda for many years. Needless to say, I and many others were shocked and appalled by Kriyananda's proclamation. David From Kriyananda's letter of 1998: Ananda's Directions by Swami Kriyananda "....It is also vitally important at Ananda that other energies not be allowed to intrude themselves, as if to bypass Kriyananda and go straight to our gurus for guidance and inspiration. I myself have left America and come to Italy partly to give you all more freedom to bring this issue to a conclusion in your own minds. It would be a repudiation of my own responsibility, however, not to share with you my understanding in this matter". "Yes, you can "go straight to Master," or to any other master in our line of gurus. Try it, please, if you like. See if they will accept you. Others have done so, however, and I have yet to see one of them flourish. But you are always free to go where you like, and to follow whom you like". J. Donald Walters, in a twenty-three page letter to the Ananda community, posted on Ananda's website in December of 1998. (And removed, without explanation, several weeks later) Edited by: David Deep at: 4/3/02 11:23:53 am
Pig Ma Registered User (4/4/02 1:10 pm) Reply	Re: An interesting website Pschuppe, I just realized I've seen this quote before, in the context that David Deep portrays it- from a person saying that it was in a letter to the Ananda community on the website and then removed. (I never saw it on the website myself because I was happy in SRF land during that time.) It sounds like something "ripe" for misunderstanding, which is probably why it was removed after several weeks. Do you mind addressing this on behalf of Ananda, or anyone else in Ananda mind addressing it? I was just reading "The Path" by Swami Kriyananda, coincidentially enough, from chapter 19 that has this quote: "Tell me," I said, hesitating before taking this philosophical plunge, "why do we have pictures on our altar at all? If the state of consciousness we're seeking is formless and omnipresent, something we're supposed to commune with in our own selves, doesn't it hinder our development to have our attention diverted outwardly, to individuals?" "No," Bernard replied. "You see, our masters have that state of consciousness. For us, it is difficult even to visualize such a state! By attuning ourselves to them, we begin to sense what it is they have, and to develop that same consciousness in ourselves. This is what is meant in the Bible by the words, 'As many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God.'" (32) "Then is it more important to try to tune in to Master's consciousness, in meditation, than to concentrate on what he says and does outwardly?" "Very much so! I don't mean, of course, that his outward teachings don't hold vital lessons for us also. But the very gist of those teachings is to guide us into inner attunement. One might say that attunement is the essence of discipleship." I wondered whether such an intensely personal relationship to one's guru might not cause emotional attachment to him, thereby limiting the disciple's consciousness instead of freeing it. Most important of all, I wondered, would attunement with Master threaten my attunement with God? Would it externalize my attention, instead of interiorizing it? As time passed, and I got to know Master better, it became obvious to me that the attunement he encouraged in his disciples was impersonal. It was his practice to turn people's devotion resolutely away from himself, as a human being, and toward the omnipresent Divinity that was the sole object of his own devotion. Attunement with him, I found then, meant attunement not with his human personality, but with his universal state of awareness. Indeed, in the deeper sense there was no personality there for us to attune ourselves to. As he often put it, "I killed Yogananda long ago. No one dwells in this temple now but God." My impression is that Swami Kriyananda's discipleship with Master is that he does not try to glorify himself, but he is definitely a leader of an organization that promotes Master's path of self realization. Leaders these days are in the bullseye of the target. Every misstep or mistake is held up to be glared at, which perhaps goes along with the territory, unfortunately. I do love looking at the beauty of the whole picture, myself personally. Still, I think David Deep has put forward something that it would be nice to either be cleared up, or at least discussed. Edited by: Pig Ma at: 4/4/02 1:11:39 pm
David Deep Registered User (4/4/02 3:34 pm) Reply	Re: An interesting website Does this help? David "...Among these emancipated ones are the great gurus or spiritual preceptors appointed by the Lord to help mankind in silent, secret ways. They do not require any agent or 'medium' to reach the truth seeker who wants and needs their aid; they assist their disciples directly. Whether or not the devotee is conscious of such help does not matter; he will understand that he is receiving divine succor according to the way he himself changes inwardly and outwardly for the better..." Paramahansa Yogananda: Bhagavad Gita--(unedited)
pschuppe Registered User (4/4/02 4:36 pm) Reply	Re: An interesting website Dear PigMa and others, Take my words as my own experience and understanding; with "as many grains or pounds of salt" as you feel are needed. In response to the quotation above from "David Deep": And if our attunement and realization were deep enough to perceive their guidance and aid perfectly, maybe there would be no need for written lessons, or teachers, or organizations, etc.! But the fact is that people get all kinds of strange ideas when all they go by is a book or lesson. Witness all the discussion on this board about how, or whether, to correctly do the energization exercises and kechari mudra. Two points that that quote doesn't address are: God works through instruments. The fact that not very many of us are fully liberated doesn't mean we can't and shouldn't try to serve Him in others, whether SRF thinks so or not. True teaching is individual. Again, as many have pointed out in other discussions on this board, a technique that works for one person, may be terribly detrimental to another. The book or lesson won't correct the person who wouldn't benefit from using it. It helps to have someone with some direct experience of the Guru to ask. Not that the quotation above is wrong, but there's room for both. It's common sense IMHO. That long letter from which the brief quotation above is taken, was written to Ananda members, and oriented to them specifically, (which is why it was later removed from the website) though some of the points in it are universal and applicable to anyone. One of the issues here is one that gets asked or addressed frequently (though sometimes unknowingly) by people on this board. Do you need to have a direct contact with someone who knew Master? Another way to ask the question is, how important is that contact? Master himself answered the question in a certain way by saying that on this path one isn't just linked to some printing press, but to a line of God-Realized Masters. He answered it in another way when he was having a discussion with some of the monks (at which Kriyananda was present) about the need to free 6 disciples before one could achieve final liberation. Since the conversation was about Sister Gyanamata and the fact that she had achieved final liberation, he said directly: "She had disciples." Now we all know that Master was the avatar in the ashram. So why, in that scenario, would there be question of anyone else having disciples? Not everyone, even while Yogananda was in the body, could meet him or spend time with him directly. He had to work through instruments--there's only so much one body can do. That's why he had people do the Kriya initiation blessing in his place, even when he was physically present. Kriyananda is the instrument through which Ananda came into being. It didn't just happen by chance. It isn't like a bunch of hippies in SF got together and had the inspiration to be practicing their Kriya in the Sierra foothills as part of a World Brotherhood Colony. It was his effort (and bucketloads of it), that brought it to manifestation. In the first 2 years, he pretty much single-handedly paid the entire mortgage on the property (where a growing number were living) from his 7-day-a-week class schedule in the SF area. You can't remove him from the picture of Ananda without eliminating the energy and ray of Master's grace that created it in the first place. "David Deep" or someone suspiciously like him (ncyogi@aol.com) emailed me the same quotation he quoted above. I responded to his e-mail by saying: I'm well aware of the letter and quotation you reference. Nowhere in it do I read him (Kriyannda) saying we "can only come to Master through him". I do read, and have heard him say that one does need some kind of connection to Master (in other words, more of a connection than to some printing press). Doesn't have to be HIM per se. Could be anyone who directly knew him or even the students of direct disciples.i How can one get to know Master's spirit? I think it's helpful to be around someone who lived with him. Of course meditation is the best and deepest way tune in to Master, but sometimes our own ego and imagination creep in. Anyway, there's a larger context from which that letter was written that doesn't come across in a little 3 sentence excerpt, happy though "David Deep" and his pseudonyms are to quote it and other, seemingly damning statements, by themselves. Frankly it's probably too subtle a point to go into here. I seriously doubt whether "David Deep" has the bandwidth to hold up his end of the conversation, though I would be happy if he wanted to try. All he ever seems to do is quote brief passages as if they were the final, absolute truth, forevermore, and without comment or question. Truth is deeper than any "absolute" definitions of it. I'd be happy to discuss it further, and/or privately, if you like. I'll be around during May, so I may see you, (PigMa) up at Ananda. Or e-mail me at: pschuppe@worldshare.net. Bless you, ps

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