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prssmd Registered User (3/29/04 10:21 pm) Reply	A "brainwashing technique." MastersChela says he's "a bit put-off when someone says that ... advice to meditate more is a "brainwashing technique." I never used the term "brainwashing technique" on this website. Someone else did. It's not quite the term I would use, but it gets the point across. Advising someone to meditate more is good advice, but it is not always appropriate advice, and it does not always solve the problem at hand. Imagine the following scenarios. John: "Mr. Marcos, you stole millions from the Philippine treasury, didn't you?" Marcos: "Meditate more, my son." John: "Mr. Stalin, you had millions of innocent people killed, didn't you?" Stalin: "Meditate more, my son." John: "Ananda, you fraudulently allowed someone in Thailand to use your name to promote his yoga classes, didn't you?" Ananda: "Meditate more, my son." The advice given is quite inappropriate and does nothing to solve the problems raised. Unfortunately, it is typical of spiritual teachers to avoid dealing with serious problems by inappropriately giving advice of this sort. It's a form of brainwashing in the sense that it's an attempt by spiritual teachers to persuade others that they, the teachers, can do no wrong. It's an attempt by spiritual teachers to avoid responsibility for their own misconduct by telling anyone attempting to discuss that misconduct to stop complaining and just meditate. In a way, it's a bit like giving someone a drink or a drug (although meditation is of course healthier than either). Imagine: John: "Mr. Marcos, you stole millions from the Philippine treasury, didn't you?" Marcos: "Here's a liter of whisky. Drink this. When you're finished, you won't be worrying about my behavior anymore." John: "Mr. Stalin, you had millions of innocent people killed, didn't you?" Stalin: "Here's a liter of whisky. Drink this. When you're finished, you won't be worrying about my behavior anymore." Edited by: prssmd at: 4/2/04 3:50 am
didgeridootoo (3/30/04 6:43 am) Reply	Re: A "brainwashing technique." Well, I believe if you do spent all day meditating you would not have as much time to spend doing things that are inappropraite. Pun intended. I was reading a novel that took place in India, and I don't recall the name of it, but some merchant who was also a thief, meditated. I read this so long ago, that the last statement may not be correct, but I was surprised, at the time, to learn that meditation doesn't make you honest. Then I began reading and listening to others on that subject, and you really have to work at being honest, and so on, as you meditate. And if you don't follow right conduct, meditation will can cause you other emotional problems. As I am writing here, I am thinking how crazy making it must be to be a monk or a nun at Mother Center and to try to justify the things that are being done there or even things you are asked to do that you feel are wrong. If, in fact, that happens. It is just that you come to an ashrama to follow the "right" path, and so much other stuff is going on that isn't "right." Better to hire people from other countries who don't speak English.
MastersChela Registered User (3/30/04 9:49 am) Reply	mountains out of molehills I'm so sorry, prssmd, that you're STILL fuming about this. I say meditate more, not because I think it will make the "problem" go away, but because it will temper your frustration... it'll make it not be so heavy in your consciousness. If this is what you mean by "brainwashing", then maybe, by your defiinition, meditation is brainwashing. I decided to do some more investigating into this infamous "Thailand Meditation group" of yours... I read his website thoroughly. It seems he IS a disciple of Master's (his teacher was a direct disciple of PY), and he's teaching Kriya Yoga as he learned it from his teacher... I think the problem here is that you're not really clear on what Ananda is. Ananda isn't some dictatorial, controlling organization with a "mother center". People aren't concerned about controlling the teachings at every Ananda center. Ananda is a loose affiliation of disciples of Master, a place where people can come together to meditate and have fellowship. None of the Ananda groups in America are in any way connected financially (except that each group tithes to the Ananda Sangha to support publications, teaching, and outreach), so the rather loose affiliation with this meditation spa in Thailand doesn't seem like a big deal to me. What I don't understand, is what you think Ananda is getting out of it. The guy's probably not donating much money to Ananda Sangha, and even if he is, it couldn't translate into much for as little as he's charging for his retreats... (The economy of Thailand is a great deal different than America... My best friend is currently living there, working with Burmese refugees, and makes about $30 USD per month, and lives a moderately comfortable existence). As for the "allow" part, I don't think there was much Ananda could do to stop this guy from using the Ananda name and logo. Ananda doesn't really have any money to be suing fellow devotees (unlike another org we know) due to 12 years of litigation which have left Ananda 4 million dollars in debt. And besides, seeing as how the guy's in Thailand, how much do you think using the name of a small, poor spiritual group in the USA is really promoting his group? I'm really sorry, again, that this has bothered you so much. Think about it from a detached point of view for a moment, instead of thinking of it as an "I got 'em now!" point. It's really no big deal. In Master, MastersChela Edited by: MastersChela at: 3/30/04 9:53 am
moyma Registered User (3/31/04 1:04 pm) Reply	Re: A "brainwashing technique." I may add this as well, There is a website called the Kriyayoga of Babaji and in it there is a guy who says he is a Reincarnation of Yogananda.....He uses the teachings of master to push his point , and I am sure SRF..... once they find him..... will sue him all the way into the next incarnation.....But really what is the point ? truth always wins...... Dharma is always true .......People like this guy and this fellow from thailand.....If there is no truth they die out .....How much harm can they really do to someone who is really seeking? There will always be people like that .....remember the part in the ay about the Kumla mela....Between yukteswar and Babaji.....there will always be a FEW men of realization within all the fakes ....but there is a finer point on it....... these regulations and lawsuits do more damage than if things were just left alone.... We now have not only srf that sues Ananda but other srf devottes banning together to sue as well....... and Like has happened to Ananda Assisi .....It doesn't matter whether it's true or not as long as we can ruin Ananda......Drugs prostituttion money laundering...... Brainwashing.......PLEASE !!! all the charges aganist Kriyananda were droped but still ......80 policemen. Choppers.... guns drawn .....dogs......The damage this kind of thing does is Horrible .....Absolutly no truth in it at all.... but still the leaders there spent about a week in jail untill the police realilized that it was all a lie......The charges ??? Thats right folks......... SRF devotee's feeling there oats..... I read some of the charges and they come off almost word for word from a srf devotee;s website bent on the destruction of Ananda.... while I can't say for sure it was this group , It may not of been..... your also dealing with the CHURCH!... I talked to one and they are convinced Ananda is the ultimate evil ...........so what is a little lie ???? If we can take them down....I can't blame SRF for this but I can blame them for the aura of lawsuits that hang around Ananda and this board and SRF in general....they are all by people from srf......Our gurubis ...so called......Wonder where they got the Idea that suing other devote's was ok ????? We must protect this work from all evil....etc etc etc.....
prssmd Registered User (4/2/04 3:58 am) Reply	Re: mountains out of molehills The head of the "Thailand Meditation group" uses Ananda's name (quite improperly, as he's never been initiated by Ananda and never even visited Ananda) with the permission of Ananda, so of course Ananda wouldn't want to sue him (as MastersChela suggests). I should think Ananda would ask this person to discontinue fraudulently promoting his yoga classes in this manner, but Ananda staff I've communicated with are perfectly happy about the situation. It seems to me that Ananda should discontinue this fraud. Once again, MastersChela, like others in Ananda I've communicated with, prefers to ignore the facts and the issues and instead to change the topic. Notice how he tries to re-direct the discussion to a discussion about me (a person he has never even met and knows nothing about). That's the Ananda style. Notice also how MastersChela tries to deflect criticism from Ananda by trying to discredit the person asking questions about Ananda (me). MastersChela makes the utterly ridiculous statement, in regard to me: "Maybe, by your definition, meditation is brainwashing." I have never said anything of the sort, but don't count on MastersChela to pay any attention to the facts. I would say, however, that if Ananda tells anyone who complains about anything at Ananda that they should just mind their own business and meditate more, they're not dealing with Ananda's problems, and when they respond in this manner to their own members, they are engaging in something that is a bit like brainwashing. I hope readers of this website are intelligent enough to see the vast difference between what I am saying and what MastersChela attributes to me, that is, the ridiculous view that meditation is brainwashing. I wish MastersChela and the rest of those in Ananda would spend more time dealing with the problems at Ananda instead of focusing on discrediting their critics. Here are a few of Ananda's problems, reported by Jamie Bate for TheUnion.com/March 26, 2004: On March 2, dozens of Italian police raided Ananda's campus in Assisi, Italy. The raid was part of an investigation of several charges against the church, including fraud, usury and violations of labor laws. Nine people - four Americans, three Germans and two Italians - reportedly were arrested and later released. Also charged was Ananda's founder and spiritual leader, J. Donald Walters, known as Swami Kriyananda. Kriyananda, 78, was not immediately arrested because he was in India recovering from an illness, said Jon Smallen, the general manager of Ananda Village on Nevada County's San Juan Ridge. Over the past decade, Kriyananda and the Ananda Church of Self-Realization have been embroiled in civil lawsuits over the teachings of the movement's guru, Paramhansa Yogananda, and sexual misconduct involving church leaders and a female member. Marin County attorney Ford Greene was on the legal team that represented the plaintiff in the sexual harassment suit. The woman eventually prevailed and was awarded damages in excess of $1 million in 1998. While Greene said he doesn't have any direct involvement with what is happening in Italy, he said the news accounts he has read haven't surprised him. ------------- My own complaint about fraud at Ananda should come as no suprise. Notice that the raid described above was part of an investigation of several charges against the church, including fraud. Edited by: prssmd at: 4/2/04 5:00 am
moyma Registered User (4/2/04 8:53 am) Reply	Re: mountains out of molehills I think you need to read my post.....and understand......... even meditate on what I said....... So far most of the charges that have been brought have been droped....I have a very good friend who lives there,,,, in fact, one of the people who was arrested !...... All the charges brought to Kriyananda were droped.....They were foolish..... Brought by a disgruntled x employee who the italian goverment may prosecute because all the charges are false....His last comment was "I am not going to be the scapegoat in this".......don't believe everything you read..... ford greene the cult buster !!!!....Look that guy up before you lay down with him.... It's fine to have problems with Ananda .....,but for heaven's sake use your common sense here.....this attack is what happens when lawsuits rein....there will be more I"M sure..It's the American way.... the SRF way..... and I guess your way..... all in the name of master !!!!! Can't believe you quoted ford greene....You have no Idea what this guy is about do you ??? .... really a high soul.......Maybe you can get him to deprogram you.......for a small fee...........like everything you own.....
MastersChela Registered User (4/2/04 1:52 pm) Reply	Re: mountains out of molehills *Quote:* The head of the "Thailand Meditation group" uses Ananda's name (quite improperly, as he's never been initiated by Ananda and never even visited Ananda) with the permission of Ananda, so of course Ananda wouldn't want to sue him (as MastersChela suggests). I should think Ananda would ask this person to discontinue fraudulently promoting his yoga classes in this manner, but Ananda staff I've communicated with are perfectly happy about the situation. It seems to me that Ananda should discontinue this fraud. Wait a sec... What I'm trying to ask you is this: Why do you think this is such a huge "fraud?" The part of my post that you seem to have missed is this: Being a part of Ananda has NOTHING TO DO with visiting Ananda Village. Ananda Village ISN'T Ananda. Ananda is "divine joy." Ananda is an affiliation of disciples of Paramhansa Yogananda who value teachings over organizations, who look to the needs of the individual instead of the hierarchy of an organizational structure. The reason why this affiliation with the man in Thailand ISN'T a "fraud" as you say, is because there's nothing ANYWHERE in Ananda's "rulebook" that says one has to visit Ananda Village to be a part of Ananda. This is a simple fact about Ananda that you'd know if you were a part of it. Just let it go, Brother. It doesn't matter that much. It isn't worth loosing your peace over.
prssmd Registered User (4/6/04 1:27 am) Reply	Re: Thailand Meditation Group Ananda claims that its Thailand Meditation Group is run by someone who had kriya initiation from Ananda. Derrick, who runs the group, has told me that he has never received kriya initiation from Ananda and that he is not even a member of Ananda! When I wrote him recently about this, he did not deny that he has never received kriya initiation from Ananda, and he did not deny that he is not even a member of Ananda. My conclusion is that (1) Ananda is misrepresenting the facts, and (2) Ananda seeks to fraudulently promote itself worldwide by allowing anyone to start an official Ananda Meditation Group even if the person has never received kriya initiation from Ananda and is not even a member of Ananda. MastersChela's account above of what it would mean to start an Ananda group and claim to be a part of Ananda does not correspond in any manner to the normal conception of running a branch of an organization. If anyone whatsoever (even with no firsthand knowledge of Ananda and no initiation by Ananda) can start an "Ananda" group, claiming to be affiliated with the Ananda of Nevada city or Ananda of Italy, then the very meaning of "Ananda" becomes quite empty. MastersChela advises me: "Just let it go, Brother. It doesn't matter that much. It isn't worth loosing your peace over." I haven't lost any peace whatsoever over Ananda's fraud. MastersChela seems to think he can read people's minds, but he is very deluded. Although Ananda's fraud is on a relatively small scale, and although I haven't lost any peace over it, I see no reason to tolerate it, just as I see no reason to tolerate the very nasty and vicious manner in which Ananda staff have treated people (including myself) who raise criticisms, however small, of Ananda. Indeed, it sometimes seems to me that Ananda staff are deliberately trying to create enemies. Moyma (above) writes that recently, a "disgruntled [ex-]employee" brought charges against Kriyananda. Why does Ananda have so many disgruntled ex-employees and ex-members? I'm sure it has a lot to do with the obnoxious and thoroughly un-spiritual behavior of Ananda staff. Moyma writes, in reference to the recent charges against Kriyananda: "This attack is what happens when lawsuits rein....there will be more I"M sure..It's the American way.... the SRF way..... and I guess your way..... all in the name of master !!!!! ...Can't believe you quoted ford greene." Notice the silliness of Moyma's diatribe. Moyma objects to quoting Ford Greene. But the question is not whether it was Ford Greene who said something, but whether what he said is true. Moyma doesn't dispute what Greene said. Was there anything false in the article by Greene that I quoted? Moyma doesn't say what it is. Moyma also objects to lawsuits. What Moyma ought to object to is FRIVOLOUS lawsuits (ones that have no basis in the facts or the law), not lawsuits in general. Of the various people I know of who have sued Ananda and/or Kriyananda in recent years, several have been successful or partially successful. Therefore, we may conclude that these successful lawsuits have not been at all frivolous, and that it is false to say that in general, the lawsuits against Ananda have been frivolous. Lawsuits in general enable people to correct wrongs. I prefer the American legal system to the Italian (from what I know of it) because it is easier, generally, for people to correct wrongs through the American legal system. On the other hand, when the system is abused, penalities should be (and are) paid. Lawyers can be fined by the court for bringing frivolous lawsuits. Here's an example reported on May 27, 2000:"A federal court judge has fined the attorney for a northern Minnesota loggers group $5,000 for filing a lawsuit that linked environmental action with religious beliefs. Saying the case is frivolous, U.S. District Court Judge James Rosenbaum on Friday ordered attorney Stephen Young to pay $2,500 to each of two environmental groups that Young has sued on behalf of the Associated Contract Loggers." Imagine what would happen if you couldn't sue anyone. You buy a car with a warranty. It breaks down. You lose thousands of dollars. What could you do about it? Nothing. Your doctor amputates your leg. Trouble is, he makes a mistake and cuts off the wrong leg. What could you do about it? Nothing. Edited by: prssmd at: 4/7/04 9:02 pm
moyma Registered User (4/8/04 9:46 pm) Reply	Re: mountains out of molehills I'm sure that master would love to here your comments about Ananda, he to was subjected to many lawsuits .....and like you am sure he thought they were wonderful.... The Italy arrests were totaly without merit ....when you decide that its ok to destroy innocent people by lies, Then I draw the line. I belive that Kriyananda is sincere and also Ananda as a whole....and if that is true then these lawsuits represent a serious evil.....there were people, innocent people destroyed in these suits aganist Ananda....some were good friends of mine....you get my meaning here ? there is no fraud there ... As for the people of Ananda being obnoxious.....I dimly remember a talk by the great saint Antyourmomananda who said, and I Quote here.....the only way ananda is going to grow is by being very, very, very, Obnoxious to the poor dumb bastards that call on the phone....who cares what they or anybody thinks...after all ,were all in this just for ourselves ! one last thing before signing off here ..... what I said about Ford greene was such a very small part of my last post, but let me give you some persective on the person you quoted. Ananda brainwashes people by having them do this thing called chanting......They stare at candles till there minds go blank......they pray to these strange beings whose names we can't even prononce......baba who??? read what this guy is about before you quote him is all I'm saying. he destroyed the teachings of master in the courtroom along with the SRF laywer mr flynn
prssmd Registered User (4/12/04 5:23 am) Reply	Re: molehills out of mountains Moyma says I think lawsuits are wonderful. On the contrary, when a lawsuit is needed, that is a cause for sorrow. I think it's a terrible shame when people break the law, commit fraud, etc. It is in such cases that a lawsuit is needed to correct the wrong. What Moyma fails to see is that a corrected wrong is much better than an uncorrected wrong. Apparently, Moyma likes the idea that people can break the law and get away with it. Moyma seems to think that Ananda is only obnoxious to "poor dumb bastards." Nothing could be further from the truth. Ananda is frequently obnoxious toward intelligent, sincere spiritual seekers. Edited by: prssmd at: 4/12/04 5:25 am
moyma Registered User (4/12/04 3:16 pm) Reply	Re: mountains out of molehills Who are you saying broke the law??? Who commited fraud?? Master ? Kriyananda ?? You assume because someone brought charges , That the person is guilty ......all the charges against Kriyananda were dropped..... it was.... it is ! A frivolous law suit ! there garbage !! Don't you see the damage these suits are doing !! Are we even on the same page ??? I'm saying you need to look at the facts.....and why do you talk to me in the third person.....Like I'm on trial on this message board ? If you talk to Ananda like you talk to me it's no wonder the way they respond to you.... why does Ananda being obnoxious bother you so much ??? what is your point?? I can say you are right .will you be happy then ? Ananda is obnoxious to good people....so what ? so they need to correct it, so what? If it's a real problem for them I'm sure they will do it.then will you be happy ? Your being a pretty good steward for them !!!
MastersChela Registered User (4/13/04 3:00 pm) Reply	Re: are we on the same page? I was thinking, when I logged on here... "What can I say to prssmd to get thru to him? Why is what I'm saying being taken so totally opposite of what I'm TRYING to say? I went to San Rafael a couple weeks ago to see Gangaji. One of the things she brought up was that she likes to hear what people think she said, because it's often not what she MEANT to say. She talked about how there's this gap between what we intend to say (in our own minds) and what people understand from our words (in their minds). In between, are vibrations... the electrical message our brain sends to our bodies, our vocal chords (or our fingers on the keyboard), the vibrations of the air, the vibrations of the other person's eardrum, and the conversion into electrical vibrations which enter their brain. Like the "telephone game" we used to play in grammar school, there's a lot of room for the message to get messed up. This MUST be what's happening here, because you insist, prssmd, that I don't understand you, that you're a really good person, that you're a calm, rational, and right-thinking human being. I'm sure that this is true. Let me show you who I percieve you to be, based on my own observations on this board... First, let me preface this by saying that I'm sure that this ISN'T who you are, but only how I see you based on the interaction we've had here... You're someone who's totally dedicated to the idea of accountability, and to organizational integrity, wether or not you're a member of said organization, and wether or not their integrity effects you on any personal level. You're hot-headed, and you make judgements about people without really listening to what they're saying. You take statements out of context, and you're more likely to believe that people are guilty than innocent. You see the worst in people, and amplify it. I know that when I interact with you here, I find myself being thrown off center, being stupified by your inability to really LISTEN to what I'm trying to say to you. You seem angry about something, something deep inside you. Deep down, there's some pain, some damage that's been done to your ego, but not superficial. Something DEEP, something almost down to your soul, and you won't stop till all corruption has been exorcized from spiritual groups everwhere. Now, like I said before, this probably ISN'T who you are... In fact, I'm sure it isn't. I've read posts of yours on less "controversial" threads, and found you to be coherent and even compassionate at times. What I'm asking of you here, is to look at how you're being perceived, as someone filled with blind rage, lashing out at any "fraud," either real or immagined, that you see. Just think about what you're throwing out at people, the name-calling, the character judgements on people you don't even know personally. If you're trying to hurt people, you must know that arrows of total untruth cannot pierce the heart of a person (unless there's some kind of legal action involved... as in the Ananda Asissi case). Instead of blaming, name calling, look deeper at the messages people are trying to convey. Allow youself to be open in this issue, to be flexable. The tree which can move with the wind is much stronger than the rigid telephone pole that is broken by the storm. In Christ, MastersChela
prssmd Registered User (4/15/04 12:14 am) Reply	Re: What's wrong with MastersChela's approach; Moyma Notice how MastersChela tries, yet again, to deflect criticism from Ananda by trying to discredit the person asking questions about Ananda (in this case, myself). MastersChela does this just about every time he writes a message on this message board. He can't tolerate discussion of the substantive, genuine issues--he virtually always ignores the issues and just engages in personal attacks instead. Readers of this message board should reread the messages above and try to carefully distinguish between the genuine issues (e.g., those concerning the Thailand Meditation Group) and the nonsense issues (e.g., those which MastersChela always brings up, about my personality). As for Moyma, I quite agree with her that not all people who are charged with illegal activity are guilty. Moyma asks, "Who commited fraud??" I've outlined the fraud at length above--she needs to reread the messages on this thread. Moyma asks, "Why do you talk to me in the third person[?]" The answer is that I am addressing all the readers of this website, not just her. Moyma also asks, "Why does Ananda being obnoxious bother you so much?" According to www.ananda.org, "Ananda is a worldwide group of individuals who share the search for higher consciousness and the ideal of service to others." Surely it is quite hypocritical for the staff of an organization with such high ideals to be as obnoxious as Ananda's staff typically are. Edited by: prssmd at: 4/15/04 12:33 am
WindChimes44 Registered User (4/16/04 12:00 am) Reply	Re: are we on the same page? I think everything I might say has been said and heard or not heard in this thread... but I just noticed moy's joke. Did i read this right? <<.I dimly remember a talk by the great saint Antyourmomananda who said, and I Quote here.....the only way ananda is going to grow is by being very, very, very, Obnoxious to the poor dumb bastards that call on the phone....who cares what they or anybody thinks...after all ,were all in this just for ourselves !>> Is that saint 'And your momma nanda? LOL!! That is a saint with MANY bodies!
moyma Registered User (4/16/04 9:55 am) Reply	Re: are we on the same page? should be... Ain't your mom ananda..... I always miss spell it, but I'M sure she is used to it by now !!....but he didn't get it anyway... I rest my case here anyway...My communication skills must be really bad because he never got anything I said. I bow to you pressd , and I am sorry about the little joke. blessings ! moyma
MastersChela Registered User (4/17/04 8:57 am) Reply	Re: What's wrong with MastersChela's approach; Moyma *Quote:* Notice how MastersChela tries, yet again, to deflect criticism from Ananda by trying to discredit the person asking questions about Ananda (in this case, myself). OK, this is how you percieve me. I'm sorry that I come off this way. I'm honestly NOT trying to "deflect criticism from Ananda." I'm trying to promote spiritual growth. I am completely convinced that I cannot convince you to change your opinion of Ananda, for whatever reason it may have become what it is. What I'm trying to do here, is something totally different. I am a firm believer that whenever we see "problems" in other people, they're just a mirror for whatever we see as karmic tendencies or character flaws in oursleves. This is how I live my life, so don't think I'm applying some double standard here. I'm only asking you to try what I do all the time myself. I don't care anymore, what you think of Ananda. So I'm not saying these things because I think that by doing so, I'll make you stop judging Ananda... Who cares. What matters is that you grow spiritually, that we all do. Each time we confront something that really bugs us about someone else, it's an opportunity for our own growth. I used to be a "peace activist," I used to really be into political protest and writing my congressman... Then I realized that people, (like you and me, prssmd) have already made their decisions about their beliefs. People don't change their mind about a war because of people in SF filling market street with witty protest signs and a alt-media circus. They change their minds when their kids die in combat. I saw how filled with anger and hatred so many of those "peace activitsts" were... I realized then that the ONLY thing I could do to make the world better was work on my INNER LIFE, on my Sadhana and my relationship with God and the way that I treated other people. This is why I'm asking you to relfect back on yourself, prssmd, not because I want to distract you, and not even, any more, because I want to change your mind about Ananda.

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