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Paramadas Registered User (12/11/03 2:56 pm) Reply	Hong Sau/So Hong While on retreat recently at Hidden Valley, I overheard someone saying that somewhere, in one of Master's writings, there is an explanation for why Master gives this technique the opposite way 'round from the rest of India. You may be aware the the Tiger Swami's other name was the So Hong Swami, and that the rest of India does the technique as "So Hong" not "Hong Sau". Personally, I've been playing around with the So Hong, interjecting some So Hong's in my Hong Sau's, and finding that the combination (rather than all one or all the other) really does the trick for me. This might be heresy, but I'm not sure how much I care. However, if there is some explanation out there that Master gives, and one of you Walrusses has seen it and can dig it up, PLEASE post the reference here, SVP. BTW, there is one brief mention of Hong Sau/so'ham in BG on p. 1089, but there's no explanation of why Master does it the "wrong" way around. I'm sure he had some vital reason, but I'd really like to know what it is, given the fact that I'm getting better results when 'peppering' my Hong Sau with So Hong.
thatpilgrim Registered User (12/12/03 9:53 am) Reply	Re: Hong Sau/So Hong These excerpts are from a long out-of-print book by Swami Kriyananda called A Visit to the Saints of India. Since some teachers say 'tomatoe' and some say 'tomahtoe' (or is it ho-sum...), I think the best part of what's said here is the quote from Swami Narayan: "“Whatever Guru says is higher than any Scripture.” I’ll write now about a visit I made today to a saint, because tomorrow I am going to Ma Anandamayee, and naturally I’ll want to write next about nothing but my visit there. I went today to see one Swami Narayan, in Musafarnagar, about seventy miles from here, and a three-and-a-half hour journey by car. (One can really put on speed here in India!) Many people have great faith in him. He is extraordinarily learned–quite probably the most learned man in India, not only in the Hindu Scriptures, but in every imaginable branch of knowledge. His library, worth about seven hundred thousand rupees (on hundred thousand dollars), occupies one and a half storeys of a large building, and I’m told he’s not only read every book in it, but can refer from memory to exact page numbers. Yet he is extremely simple and modest, so much so that one might easily take him for an ignorant fellow. Rani and Indu say that whatever he says is infallible; it must come true. At least, such has been their experience. He is also considered one of only four living masters of Tantra, a fact which earned him a terrifying reputation in Bengal years ago as a man of vast powers. But I found him very simple, unaffected, and kindly. Certainly he didn’t fit the usual conception, my own included, of the Great Saint. And I wasn’t there long enough to say that I really formed a strong impression. But whatever impression he did make was a good one, and one that got steadily better, to the point where I must say I felt inwardly full of joy by the time we left...... ......I then asked him about one of the points on which Swami Muktananda had challenged my Guru. Naturally, there will always be a few differences in techniques between one school and another. Swami Muktananda, however, had made a point of saying that Master’s version of a mantra was wrong. Hong-Sau, he said, is incorrect; it should be repeated the other way around: So-ham. I had suggested a way by which the difference, which seemed trivial enough, might be reconciled. “No,” Baba had said, “all the Upanishads say that it should be So-Ham not Hong-Sau.” So, according to him, my Guru was wrong. That did not seem so trivial a matter. But what could I say, once he backed his claim by reference to Scriptural authority? I could feel, and did, that if my Guru had taught the mantra as Hong-Sau, his power alone would make it right for anyone who wanted to take it that way, but I couldn’t counter this other argument. I don’t read Sanskrit. So now I saw my opportunity. I asked Swami Narayan whether it was true that the Upanishads teach only So-Ham, never Hong-Sau. Swamiji replied: “No, on the contrary, all the Upanishads teach it as Hong-Sau.” There followed about forty-five minutes of going through various Scriptures. One of them, the Hong-Sau Vidya, says, “This is the highest mantra.” It also calls it “the god of all mantras,” and says, “The world is created with it; the world is preserved with it; and the world is destroyed with it.” “By chanting this mantra,” the Scripture goes on to say, “the seeker quickly attains liberation.” Swamiji went on to say, “Nowhere is So-Ham referred to with nearly so much authority.” “Why, then,” I inquired, “has it been so much insisted upon?” “People,” he replied, “who don’t have an adequate knowledge of the Vedas go about creating their own misunderstandings.” But then he added the most vital point of all: “Whatever Guru says is higher than any Scripture.” (Because it contains his power, and because it is specific for the disciple, rather than something general for all mankind.) I had a talk also with Swami Akhandananda, who had been giving daily discourses on the Gita. He is considered one of the foremost Sanskrit scholars in India. I took this opportunity to ask him, too, about the relative merits of the two mantras, Hong-Sau and So-Ham. He replied: “The Shastras (Scriptures) instruct one to say Hong with the incoming breath, and Sau with the outgoing breath. But both mantras are all right, since by repetition Hong-Sau becomes So-Ham. It is like the story of Valmiki(5) who, by repeating ‘Mara’ (Satan), since he was so evil he couldn’t pronounce ‘Rama,’ ended up nevertheless repeating the sacred name, ‘Rama.’ “Hansa (Hong-Sau) is also a Scriptural name for the Supreme Lord. It is a bij mantra, or seed mantra, and is to be found in the most ancient Rig Veda. “But above all, what Guru says must be done. What Guru says is greater even than the Shastras. “There was once a disciple who received a wrong (ashudha, or impure) mantra from his guru. After he had recited it for some time, an angel appeared to him and said, ‘Your mantra is not right. You should say it in this manner.’ The disciple very cleverly replied: ‘It was by repeating it the way my Guru taught it to me that I got your vision!’ After that, what could the angel say? “The Scriptures tell us that even if God Himself is pleased, but guru is not pleased, that is not enough! Pleasing the guru, implicit faith in the guru–that is everything.”
SerenityNow7 Registered User (12/12/03 3:41 pm) Reply	Re: Hong Sau/So Hong This is very interesting to me too as I am just beginning my Hong-Sau practice. One thing I found puzzling was the two syllables themselves neither of which sound or look like other Sanskrit mantra words I've seen. I'm certainly not claiming to be an expert, but they look Asian! Does the syllable "hong" or "sau" appear in other places? Also odd to me is that So-Ham or Han-sa is more than Hong-Sau reversed...to me distinctly different syllables, so why is it implied above that they are the reverse? Oh please help a confused newbie! $:\$
thatpilgrim Registered User (12/12/03 5:07 pm) Reply	Re: Hong Sau/So Hong I don't know why there are so many different pronunciations. That's one reason why following the advice of the Guru is the best advice, for me.
SsSsSnake Registered User (12/12/03 5:10 pm) Reply	Re: Hong Sau/So Hong I heard it was to do with bengali translation or something like that
ranger20 Registered User (12/12/03 5:12 pm) Reply	Re: Hong Sau/So Hong "please help a confused newbie!" During the 70's, prior to finding the AY, I used to watch Richard Hittleman's hatha yoga show on PBS. Later, when he published a book on yoga meditation I purchased it. In that book, he advocated "hamsa" on the inbreath, and "soham" on the outbreath. He translated the phrases as "I am That," and "That I am." I wondered about it briefly when I later got the Hong Sau lessons, and then decided it didn't really matter, so I'd practice according to PY's method. I still don't think it really matters. Zen practitioners get a lot of mileage through counting the breath, or simply observing it without a mantra. In any of these cases, after a time, breath will slow, and we'll experience some degree of detachment from it. I really don't think there's a "best" mantra out there for breath based concentration, that's going to carve a shortcut to "perfect" concentration. In fact, I find that worrying about "perfect" concentration is about the one thing I can do to screw up my practice. For all that I find questionable in the lessons, I'm okay with Hong Sau, and I'd make the general recommendation to a lessons student not to worry that the grass is greener with a better mantra. The discovery I've made that makes Hong Sau enjoyable, comes directly from the zen traditions, which is to simply try to watch all the inner and outer processes with detachment during the period of practice, in the same way that I watch the breath with detachment. It is also, to practice compassion and gentleness with myself. In the past, listening to Convocation sessions on Hong Sau, (which are generally taught by some of the more junior monks), you can get the idea that there's something wrong if you still have thoughts. Nonsense. It's like getting upset because you still have traffic noises, and it does as much good. I'm not all that good at Hong Sau, and I find a greater affinity with another kind of contemplative practice altogether, yet I still practice it. When I first got to SRF, my mind was as chaotic as my life had been, and I really was seeking something to help me calm down. I did not have any clear concept of what "seeking God" was all about, I just wanted to be able to relax. So credit where credit is deserved: the Hong Sau lessons answered a great need I had at the time, and whether or not Paramahansa Yogananda is my "True Guru," he has been an influential teacher, and this technique is, to me, one of the positives. If I can offer advice (and I guess I already have), it would be just to try it out for a while (you have to decide what "a while" is) and see if it works for you, and during that time, don't worry about better methods.
OneTaste Registered User (12/12/03 6:49 pm) Reply	Re: Hong Sau/So Hong I did a google on both versions and one of the sites (I don't remember which one) under soham had it as so hum. Instead of breathing naturally, breathing was controlled, and just to add further madness to these methods, it combined kriya with it as well. That ought to clear up any confusion, eh?
SerenityNow7 Registered User (12/12/03 9:11 pm) Reply	Re: Hong Sau/So Hong Ah friend Ranger, I am not "worried" about better methods, but I cannot stifle my endless curiosity!!! I realize it is my curiosity that often leads me to getting unfocused on actually practicing and more researching...I know the danger. Still I'm very interested in the different effects various mantras have. There's an interesting book (can't remember title) where just single syllable words were studied scientifically as mantras. They came up with fascinating results like "grik" would make a person short tempered! I wish there were a way/place to ask specific questions. For example, you say you are not all that good at H-S, but how do you know that? Since you've gotten great benefit from it and practiced it quite a while seems you would be...how does a person know? I still want an answer to why my feet get hot during H-S meditation but I have no idea how to find out - is it normal, is it me being quirky...if I call up MC they'll probably tell me not to worry about it as with practically every question I ask them. There's probably a big old flag in my file asks too many questions! I haven't called since I joined Walrus though...guilt perhaps.
SerenityNow7 Registered User (12/12/03 9:15 pm) Reply	Re: Hong Sau/So Hong Onetaste, "hum" by itself is an awsome mantra! I found it kind of by accident a couple years ago when I encountered the full "om mani padme hum" and I loved the feel of hum in my mind....so I just made a single word mantra out of it for a while. Always a special one to me. Just a magic feeling focusing on it during the inbreath.
Mystic Traveller Registered User (12/13/03 4:57 am) Reply	Re: Hong Sau/So Hong I was once discussing this technique with an Indian savant. He gave me following explanation: The word "Hong" is derived of Sanskrit word "Aham", meaning "I". The word "Sau" is derived from Sanskrit word "Sah", meaning "He". So the literal meaning of "Hong Sau" is "I am He" , same as saying "I am Brahman or Divine Spirit". When this Mantra is used as a Yogic meditation, "Aham" is merged with incoming breath as "Hoooooooooonng" and "Sah" is merged with outgoing breath as "Saaaaaaaaaaau". But the meaning stays the same. "Hamsah" is another short form of "Aham Sah" and is used in Sankrit texts as Mantra. The reverse of the "Aham Sah" is "Soham" (Sah + Aham) which has identical meaning and is also used as Mantra in Sankrit liturgical texts. So "Hong Sau" technique is a meditation and affirmation at the same time. If done revrently with right realization of its meaning , it will bring quicker results. "Hong Sau" (Hamsah) means "I am He". "Sau Hong" (Soham) means "He I am". Practice of both meditations/Mantra will bear the same results if done reverently and steadfastly after bowing to the Guru. Jai Yogananda! In Master, Mystic Traveller
ranger20 Registered User (12/14/03 6:48 pm) Reply	Re: Hong Sau/So Hong *Quote:* For example, you say you are not all that good at H-S, but how do you know that? Since you've gotten great benefit from it and practiced it quite a while seems you would be...how does a person know? Busted!! You caught me in the kind of thinking people on this board recognize as harmful. How do I know I'm not good at it? I don't. I was comparing myself to some imagined ideal, of how a "good" student out to be after this many years. It actually helps to remember the chapter in the AY when Sri Yuketeswar first gives Yogananda the experience of Samadhi. He was "trying" to meditate, but said his mind was extremely restless - this, on the verge of his guru deciding he was ready for the "ultimate" inner experience. Or even more helpful, just to remember how TS Eliot put it, "Take no thought for the harvest, but only the proper sowing." Edited by: ranger20 at: 12/14/03 6:49 pm
SerenityNow7 Registered User (12/14/03 9:04 pm) Reply	Re: Hong Sau/So Hong Good evening, Ranger! I'm glad I hadn't offended you - I had a few second thoughts, worried it might have come across wrong. I'm quite impressed with those of you who have managed to keep with a consistent practice for years. While it's true I've been meditating off and on since I was a teenager, I've struggled with being consistent. Often losing my motivation, just as it starts getting good for some odd reason. I'm hoping to stick with it this time....a few things are different in my reasons so maybe. I have another question(s). Where is a good place to go to discuss practical questions about the techniques and meditation? Like who do I ask about my hot feet? I also have some issues with the breathing techniques because I've had numerous illnesses, so I need a baby-steps way to build up strength in my lungs. For example, I can only breath in/hold/out in equal parts to a pitiful count of four! If I try more, I get tweaky pains in my lungs. I'd sure be glad for any ideas and feedback you guys have for me here, but is there another forum I should take these type of questions to? Thanks!
ranger20 Registered User (12/15/03 9:04 am) Reply	Re: Hong Sau/So Hong *Quote:* I have another question(s). Where is a good place to go to discuss practical questions about the techniques and meditation? Like who do I ask about my hot feet? I also have some issues with the breathing techniques because I've had numerous illnesses, so I need a baby-steps way to build up strength in my lungs. For example, I can only breath in/hold/out in equal parts to a pitiful count of four! If I try more, I get tweaky pains in my lungs. Caught you at it - "pitiful count of four." One thing I've always heard, about all forms of yoga, from physical postures to pranayama techniques, is do not strain, do what is comfortable for you. I do not know of any online resources for discussing practical aspects of the techniques. In the past I had some decent help on the few "technical questions" I raised, asking various monks at the counseling sessions at Convocation. Of course this was back before I had the awareness that there was anything to worry about. If something is really troubling you about the techniques, you could try calling MC. I haven't done so for a while, but once upon a time, at least, you used to be able to get connected to someone who could help with straightforward issues like that. I don't know if this relates to "hot feet," but I recall a satsanga question at a Convo one time - someone wrote that doing kriya would bring on strong erotic feelings. The monk pretty much just said that in the course of practice, the "monkey mind" part of most everyone would manifest as various physical distractions - aches, itches etc. I think they said an all over sensation of heat was not uncommon. The suggestion was just to not worry about it, but just keep practicing.
bsjones Registered User (12/15/03 12:16 pm) Reply ezSupporter	Re: Hong Sau/So Hong Ranger20 wrote: *Quote:* counting breaths is helpful ... This has worked the best for me.
ranger20 Registered User (12/15/03 2:00 pm) Reply	Re: Hong Sau/So Hong I didn't mean to say "counting breaths is helpful" in the context of Hong Sau, because it's actually another technique. A lot of zen traditions have some variation of counting the breath a technique, and it may work better for you than Hong Sau. I do not think you can do Hong Sau and count the breath at the same time. Edited by: ranger20 at: 12/15/03 2:00 pm
bsjones Registered User (12/15/03 2:29 pm) Reply ezSupporter	Re: Hong Sau/So Hong Yes, my breath-counting is not based on the hong-sau technique, but it is the technique that I have worked with the most. And it does help attain a calm mind.
etzchaim Registered User (12/16/03 6:22 am) Reply	Re: Hong Sau/So Hong Hot feet may relate to the chakra in the sole of the foot. There are 'minor' chakras, so to speak, in the palms of the hands and in the souls of the feet. In the Kabbalah system, the Left and Right hand pillars run down the legs and through the arms, culminating in the palms and soles, so you might be activating those. If one burns more than the other, that would tell you that you are too far over to the Right (rationality?) or the Left (emotion?) and you need to balance.
redpurusha Registered User (12/16/03 7:43 am) Reply	Re: Hong Sau/So Hong Thank you Mystic Traveller for giving us a more detailed explanation. I have been using this technique mainly to interiorize the mind prior to aum and kriya meditation for very short periods like 5-10 minutes -whatever does the job. But recently, I've been experimenting with it at night before falling asleep. Yogananda advises (in the lessons somewhere) that you can meditate while lying down, and around midnight is optimal. There's even a video of Yogananda, maybe you've seen it, in which he says "You people do not know how to sleep... you constantly worry about unpaid bills, " then proceeds to show the proper way: lay down flat on you back (ideal for allowing the organs to rest) with eyes upwards focus on the point between the eyebrows and go into superconsciousness. Well, he is shown going into superconsciousness, while I try to watch the breath performing Hong-Sau. Suprisingly, this could last up to 1 to 2 hours, after that I start falling into the subconscious. This works for me because that's about how long it would take for me to fall asleep, tossing and turning. I just started this and today feel more rested than I can remember, like I slept at the "Holiday Inn Express." About the spelling, wouldn't it make sense to spell it Hong-Saw? In the lessons, it says the pronunciation is like in Hong Kong and See-Saw. I guess it could go either way like Om and Aum, same pronunciation. Somebody here mentioned they associate the name with something Asian. They might be thinking of the big japanese ape -King Kong? Edited by: redpurusha at: 12/16/03 12:05 pm
bsjones Registered User (12/16/03 11:21 am) Reply ezSupporter	Re: Hong Sau/So Hong red, you can say that again!
redpurusha Registered User (12/16/03 11:27 am) Reply	Re: Hong Sau/So Hong (This message was left blank) Edited by: redpurusha at: 12/16/03 12:06 pm
redpurusha Registered User (12/16/03 11:30 am) Reply	Re: Hong Sau/So Hong sorry about that, I swear it was a freak accident. I said it before and I'll say it again...

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