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legspinnr Registered User (10/4/02 12:27 am) Reply	Re: in my experience - addendum Ah, now, the below deserves a step by step dissection, and, not being one to back out of a good argument, that's what I'm going to give it. Bear with me, cos I'm not pulling any punches here. > Phrases such as "readying the consciousness" imply something not in the moment. mere linguistic frippery. in order to be wholly in the present moment, an adjustment is necessary, even if that adjustment is just to sit back and be aware. Unless you are already perfect, you must ready the consciousness in some way, shape or form. > If a person is having a hard time in their life and they >are told that if they are making a spiritual effort now >everything in the future will improve, it seems that a >natural response would be to make the effort so that the >"future" will improve. Your point being? I should have thought that whether the person were told that or not, he/she would make some effort. Anyway, what is proposed in the lessons is an effortless joy. Kind of similar to Zen, is it not? > Perhaps you have not been to a temple and are taking everything from the lessons and books directly (which is probably the best way to follow this path), No perhaps about it, my friend. Also, personal experience plays a part, as it always must. "Experience,thogh noon auctoritee..." (Wife of Bath) > but when one hears these kinds of things in lectures and the devotees among themselves talk in this way, it becomes a part of one's subconscious What. As opposed to reading it, you mean? Mere psychobabble. You can do better than this. > and, depending on the individual, not the best way to live one's life. You still haven't defined the exact 'way' that is or isn't supposed to be best for the individual. Guruji's point is that every path leads to Realization eventually. That doesn't mean that some paths are not better than others. Just because you are going through a crisis of confidence regarding the Sicilian Defence, it doesn't mean that it's not the surest strategy. You can only work that out through experience. (I know what you're going to say, but hold on - I've more important points to come later. And I'm not being flippant!) > I don't say the things that I do about SRF lightly. I was a "member," a "devotee" for over 20 years. I didn't for one moment suggest, mean to imply or think that you did. In trying to work out where you are coming from, I have deduced that you must have had one fcker of a time over the last 20 years. But is that really the fault of SRF? You claimed that Zen was a much more "real" spiritual path. From that alone I have inferred that you are displeased and distrustful of SRF at some level. > A couple years ago, while examing my life, my psychological and physical health, I understood that the SRF lessons had not been a path well suited to me. That's a shame. > Actually, I made a last ditch effort to throw myself more wholeheartedly into reading the lessons, meditating more deeply, and it was no use (btw, I've always lived by temples and served etc. as well...even worked up at Mt. Washington for a couple years). perhaps that all worked against you in a strange way? I know I myself have had to battle against the expectations that 'something' would happen, some grace would come to me for all my hard labour. On the other hand, if reading the lessons is proving difficult and unproductive, maybe you do need a rest from them; > From what I see in SRF, there is no real and true effort for the idea of "unification" of religion or path. Why should there be? Guruji's dissection of the way all true religion interrelates and his isolation of the principles behind all religion stands alone. Once you've made a good point, hammering it will only turn people off. > You are asked to swear that SRF will be your "religion" when you apply for kriya ... which must be difficult if you're not ready to do so, but in and of itself is perfectly natural. When I was confirmed, I was asked to state seriously that my faith in Catholicism was sincere. > You hear in lectures, overtly and covertly, that SRF is the "best," the "fastest" way to God (as if God wasn't in you and with you at this very moment??). I disagree with your inference. Just because God is with us and in us at this moment, it doesn't mean that we are perfect in our perception of Him. We are far too attached to the senses, to maintaining the illusion of what we see as real, for that. > There is an air of superiority among devotees Shame on them!!! If there's one thing they above all people should know, it's the virtue of humility. But then, nobody's perfect, and, anticipating your next point, I haven't entirely been spared. The bloke who introduced me to Yogananda was quite clearly dealing with the implications of having found such beautiful teachings which kept reinforcing their own value in practice. Anyway, 'superiority' is merely risible, because it reveals the individual's weaknesses like nothing else. And as such, can only render that person more loveable. >and if anyone leaves because they find a path that suits them better, they are talked about like they are in for some real trouble... Ah now, isn't this a bit "Ma! Look what they're saying about me!!"? now I don't see anything remotely unifying about these attitudes. well, it's unifying in a sense, cos they're obviously trying to make everyone see what they see, see things the way they see them. But I take your point. > I think in theory there are a lot of good ideas in the lessons. In practice too. > Have you spent much time studying Zen philosophy? I have been doing reading now for about six months, and find numerous differences in the Zen approach to meditation and to life. In Zen there is no goal, no hope, no experience or state that one is trying to achieve. So here's an idea. Why not take your new, Zen-focused consciousness, and go back to the SRF lessons with an open mind and the consciousness of setting out to work out where Zen is right, where SRF techniques are right, and where the two paths interlap (my word). Even by reading things with which one disagrees, one can discover a whole lot about things. Give the lessons one more go, and don't let them cow you. Be stronger than the lessons, cos, and I'm being brutally honest here, I don't think, from what you've told me, that it's likely you have overcome your fears and worries about SRF and the way they treated you. > Everything is just the way it is, and everything comes back to the moment...you don't have to think about "God" even, you just have to be in this moment right now. As long as there's a concept of a Benevolent Universal Consciousness (in other words one who will* let you be, who doesn't make rules). I would also refer you, even if you think my paltry efforts at argument unconvincing, to Guruji's essay in "Journey to Self-realization", "IS GOD A DICTATOR?", challenging and beautiful. > But in any case, I think we agree, that every individual must choose for themselves the best path to follow. No maybe about it!!!! > For a long time I put the effort into SRF, but things change and I came, through life experience, to understand it was time for me to move on. No regrets, that's just the way it is. Again, that's a shame. > Ultimately, whether we realize it or not, life itself is unifying...we are all connected and when we are finally able to see (and by this I mean know in that deep sense within) that separation doesn't exist, THEN we'll have something! Amen to that. In God, Fernsy
chrisparis Registered User (10/4/02 6:50 am) Reply	Re: in my experience - addendum How charming to witness a (self-admittedly) new member of SRF taking up arms and so ably wielding his silver sword of truth against the dragons here on the Walrus. It is truly touching. As for myself, after having made all of the same arguments to myself that legspinnr is floating now, I ran into the following dilemma: A key factor in accepting the SRF corpus of teachings is the belief that the consciousness of the Guru continues to guide all kriyabans everywhere even today. PY's own disciples willingly perpetrated the fraud that their was a miraculous element to the incorruptibility of his body following his death in 1952 (he was embalmed the day after his death. There was nothing miraculous about it at all). Therefore, the guidance of the Guru was insufficient to cause his closest disciples, who had studied with him for years, to act in an ethical and truthful manner, even immediately following his death. How then can I expect his presence to do anything for me? And if I could have that expectation, should I? Doesn't it simply prevent me from turning to the REAL Guru, the Divine Presence within me? Ultimately I have had to come to the conclusion that there is merit in many, many of the spiritual paths out there, and the SRF does NOT possess a special dispensation that allows them to do more for a follower than, say, Qabalah, or the path of the Prayer of the Heart. So, Legspinnr, as tightly argued as your arguments are, grace de your Oxford education, they carry very little weight with those who have spent a relatively long time following the SRF/kriya path, and have seen deeply into the flaws of a) the SRF organization, b) the teachings SRF sends to its adherents, and c) the character of the Guru himself. Until you have lived through the pain of such DISILLUSIONMENT, might we suggest that you restrain your enthusiasm for putting us all in our places.
gardendiva Registered User (10/4/02 7:39 am) Reply	Re: in my experience - addendum Well legspinnr, I guess you've put me in my place! While you end on a somewhat conciliatory note, the overall tone of the post is palpably arrogant. We have different "opinions"...that's all they are. I'll not get into an argument with you over all the points I made. They are simply how I feel, "right or wrong" the two categories in which you seem to want to put them. I don't think I should have any "shame" about anything I've chosen to do regarding my spiritual life...I find it curious you choose that word to use. One would think that you have the same attitude as many in SRF, that it IS actually the best and fastest way to God for EVERYONE. I am perceiving much more joy in my life since I've moved on from SRF and am better able to "allow" the suffering and actually see it as a guide...that is, I'm not running from it, I'm not using the techniques and guidelines in the lessons to eliminate suffering from my life (and, yes, perhaps that's not what the lessons "meant" to imply, but I as an individual took them that way). I have no desire to incorporate the Zen philosophy into an "SRF" life. I had always been a little uncomfortable with the idolization of PY and the gurus, and never could in all sincerity accept PY as my guru (I tried, but I was young and foolish and didn't listen to my inner instincts). So just as my father, a devout Catholic, might tell me "once a Catholic always a Catholic" and why don't you take your meditation techniques and guidelines from the lessons and use them to be a good Catholic, you tell me to take what I have learned (am learning...) from Zen and apply it to being a good little SRF member??? Sorry, I'm in the stream and have moved down the river... Edited by: gardendiva at: 10/4/02 12:23:55 pm
Gitano no divino Registered User (10/4/02 8:38 am) Reply	Re: in my experience - addendum legspinnr and SRF are a marriage made in heaven. Fernsy, you have found THE path, and I encourage you to devote yourself to it body and soul, for the rest of your life. I would especially encourage you to consider the SRF monastic order. I predict that you would rise quickly through the ranks and stand a very good chance of one day being president of SRF/YSS. Your smarmy self-righteousness and caustic contempt for any deviation from orthodoxy perfectly suit you for the job. The most educated people I know (and I know some impressive ones) rarely need to remind others of their academic pedigree, because it is perfectly obvious from what they say and how they say it that they are the recipients of a fine education. You may indeed have gone to Oxford, and it is well that you remind us of this fact. For in reading your posts, one would find little else but your reminders to be persuaded of it.
srflongago Registered User (10/4/02 12:15 pm) Reply	Poor Fernsy Compassion, Love, Humility are necessary attributes of one who wishes to be a true seeker of enlightenment. Oxford is not a good place to acquire these characteristics if one does not alreadpossess them innately. I would express the hope that your journey through life will bring you to them.
gardendiva Registered User (10/4/02 12:25 pm) Reply	Re: Poor Fernsy *Quote:* Compassion, Love, Humility are necessary attributes of one who wishes to be a true seeker of enlightenment. srflongago... Good things for every one of us to remember!
legspinnr Registered User (10/10/02 11:27 am) Reply	Re: Poor Fernsy well, reading through the remarks since I stood up with my trusty sword of truth and shield of British fair play (Prop: J. Aitken), and I must confess I have looked over a mere smattering of what has been written, I did achieve quite a bit. Yes, my post may have come across as arrogant, and you would not be the first to have accused me of that over the last eighteen months. However, I am nothing if not vehement in my defence of my views whatever they are at any given moment. On the other hand, never let it be said that I am a slave to my views, either. I shall read what I haven't read so far, and I should also thank you all, because you took my posts seriously enough to respond to them. The Oxford thing is not something I can usually be accused of trumpeting, but on this occasion, it must have smacked a bit of that. It's been an odd spiritual journey recently, through a deep mire of incomprehension, with the only constant that I had to be totally and furiously - no, not furiously, but severely, austere in my own calculation of my own self-worth (based on an old bad habit I fell back into after having conquered it once - I've now happily conquered it again!). I don't mind people having a chuckle at me - hell! I enjoy having a chuckle at me - and I think it's a reflection of the strength of people on this board that I was able to post such a strong one and not send people into paroxysms of rage. Consider it - well, what - a rite of passage? - well, whatever, I still choose to focus on everything that is good and pure and humour-inspiring, and I don't want to focus on all the @#%$. I guess I have that privilege, and I guess that privilege has been afforded in part by the fact that this board exists... Enough with the speeches! Just please don't be too hard on SRF monastics; they may not be perfect, but then who among us is? No doubt you will be hearing from me again soon... In God, F. Edited by: legspinnr at: 10/10/02 11:53:40 am
chrisparis Registered User (10/10/02 1:10 pm) Reply	Re: Poor Fernsy Dear Fernsy, Mercy can justifiably be asked, for or expected for, those who have shown mercy. All that is seen on this board indicates that those who run the SRF organization have scant supply of that commodity. Furthermore, when one sets oneself up as a spiritual authority, the least the rest of the world has the right to expect is integrity. The endless posturing of those in charge of the SRF as holy ascetics, when in fact they are viscious, dogmatics, is the most repulsive aspect of the whole situation. When one takes up one's "sword" and embarks on the quest for reality, for truth, in other words, one must be able to trust that one's guides are telling them the truth and dealing with them honestly. The fact is that there are plenty of message boards out there that are geared to people who aren't questioning the SRF, and who join in on the mindless chanting of the Mata worshipping lotus eaters. This board doesn't happen to be one of them. If you post here, expect that pro SRF Ra-Ra-ing isn't going to go over very well with this audience. And since so many on this board are loooong time members, former monastics, and ex-employees, expect that they are going to know alot more about this organization than you do, and to be corrected when you say something about which they know better. All in all, this board may not be your cup of tea. Or it may not be just yet, although it may well be if you stick around long enough. Whatever. Think it over.
legspinnr Registered User (10/10/02 2:03 pm) Reply	Re: Poor Fernsy ah, chris, I believe you may have got me wrong. I enjoy this group and the lively posts that appear here. I've even enjoyed dealing with the quite extraordinary but only natural criticism I've come in for above. Some of it may even be valid: it certainly looks as if I went for Gardendiva's throat in too savage a way, but can that not be forgiven a newbie? As it turns out, Gardendiva comes across as one of the coolest people on this site, and, well, as long as he's not bothered, that's all that matters. Oh well, whatever. I remain in the best of spirits. Peace to you all. F. Edited by: legspinnr at: 10/11/02 2:42:53 am
srflongago Registered User (10/11/02 4:18 am) Reply	Re: For Fernsy Your last two posts were heartfelt and open. They are a tribute to your character. No one has had a chuckle over your posts. Rather we are expressing in our own ways concern that you keep your eyes and ears open. You may be told to give up your intellectual powers of discrimination, to subject your will and your future to others and to organizations. This is very much against the philosophy and practice of the founder of Kiya. You learned, or had reinforced, critical thinking at Oxford. Apply it everywhere in life, including religion and sprituality. The founder of the Kriya movement, Lahiri, the Guru of Yogananda's Guru, the one from whom his authority derives, was very, very, much a critical thinker. So was the founder 10 centuries ago of the Vedanta philosophy, of which Kriya is one of many descendents. The dispelling of illusion and delusion is the very basis of the Gita and of higher Yoga practice. Delusions and illusions a veil separating the individual from universal consciousness and spirituality. Dispelling illusions requires exercising all your critical faculties. These illusions are often the creation of organizations and people who claim to be spiritual, but do not exhibit love, compassion, do not set a personal example to be emulated. Instead they preach obedience to themselves and choose to acquire gifts and to exercise power over others. You must judge for yourself. But JUDGE. Do not accept claims and doctrines without excercising your critical faculties to verify the MESSENGERS' sprituality in your presence in real life. Talk is cheap. Endless devotions and lessons and otherforms of ritual are cheap. Spirituality is not. Read Aurobindo's Synthesis of Yoga for some perspective, if you have not. It is written to Oxford-Cambridge standards; he had also been a Don. He was a truly great 20th century Yogi and philosopher.
legspinnr Registered User (10/11/02 4:55 am) Reply	Re: For Fernsy well put! and further to this, another interesting thought. In any point of view, put forward in however strong language, can we discern how much of it actually belongs to the sender and how much of it is simply playing devil's advocate. More than this, does firm language imply firm belief? I know my answer to this, which is why I pose the question; because I want to refine my answer according to the wisdom and knowledge that others may possess. Edited by: legspinnr at: 10/11/02 5:07:17 am
chrisparis Registered User (10/11/02 8:01 am) Reply	Re: For Fernsy Your remark anent language raises another interesting point I have been thinking about alot lately. Let's say someone has a gnostic experience. Let's say we are discussing Lahiri or Babaji. Whichever. They receive the gnosis of God. Complete enlightenment. The experience is still going to be filtered through their brain, their language, the conditioning created by all their past experiences. When this person transmits this gnosis to the next person, that second person is going to filter what he hears through the conditioning created by his (or her) past experiences, and so on. As well, at each step along the line, any of these, well, let's call them "gurus" may only teach a part of what they know. I have heard it said that Lahiri taught each student a different form of kriya yoga, based on the student's disposition. What I say next is only my opinion, for what it is worth. I think that this means that the lineal passing of the yoga technique ALONE, is of no real value. If someone says "I come from a line of yogis that extends back to 2000 B.C." I would assert that this claim, true or not, is of no real worth, because at each and every level of transmission, deterioration of the message is occuring. THe ONLY thing that is of worth is the transmission of a technique which allows the individual to attain gnosis. The initiatic chain DOESN'T extend from God, THROUGH all the gurus down to li'l ol' me. My guru is linked DIRECTLY to God, and in due course I must link myself directly to God. If I'm not, I can't transmit anything to any student. What I think this means is that I can now safely disregard the endless clamor over the "pedigree" of gurus, masters, whatever. What counts is the results acheived by their teachings. "By their fruits shall ye know them". This puts the responsibility DIRECTLY in the lap of the ones claiming spiritual authority. They may claim to have sat at the feet of Yogananda, or anyone else, for that matter, or to have received teachings that reach back to the remotest age of India's past, or Egypt's, or Atlantis', but if they crap all over the employees and members, if they claim they are celibate monks while they are banging their disciples from hell to breakfast and six days to Sunday, if the pound their students on the importance of an ascetic diet while they can't pass by a desert buffet without taking two of the eclaires, then it is fair to say that they have little to offer, because the DIRECT connection probably isn't their. I, for one, have always thought that story about the guru who eats meat, and then eats molten nails to show his disciples that he is above dietary laws that he imposes on them was highly suspect. I have heard stories about Swami Rama treating disciples really atrociously, and I can't believe he did it to prove a point to them, or for any reason other than he was still a jerk, at times. Please forgive my ramble here. The point, in a nutshell, is that I no longer believe the antiquity equals authenticity, or that pedigree can guarantee enlightenment. I also doubt that the East has a monopoly on spiritual knowledge, or on Saints. I think a teaching can be received and revealed today that has all the power as one that's been around since Abraham's day. Just me, though. Edited by: chrisparis at: 10/11/02 8:04:40 am
gardendiva Registered User (10/11/02 8:13 am) Reply	short note... *Quote:* Some of it may even be valid: it certainly looks as if I went for Gardendiva's throat in too savage a way, but can that not be forgiven a newbie? As it turns out, Gardendiva comes across as one of the coolest people on this site, and, well, as long as he's not bothered, that's all that matters. Fernsy... Yes, I felt a little attacked, but in the end I have to look at the feeling, that thought really, and see if for what it is...just a thought! Glad to know you're open to dialogue...you are in good company here...
srflongago Registered User (10/11/02 8:38 am) Reply	Re: For Fernsy Messages in this medium or in TV or in books are by nature separated from the living spirit of the composer. One may get insight from the messeges, but to get insight into the messenger requires direct human contact, over a protracted period, in a great variety of contexts. So, whether it is a message here, or in lessons at SRF, or otherwise, one has to use one's powers of discernment over time to distinguish truth from illusion. This is a commonplace, but it is worth remembering.
SatoriElixir Registered User (12/21/05 2:48 am) Reply	Re: Research Department One thing all the yogic breathing and kriya yoga meditation actually FEED DARK FORCES(DF)...more energy. The astral attachment or DF is vampiring off of you and the more you meditate with that yogic stuff the more they feed on it. One of the results to this type of relationship is that the energy vampire pulls energy from sources around you...like LIGHTS. This type of possession is real common among NEW AGERs who channel, do yogic or some time of "altering their energy field breathing" and opening themselves up willingly by activating their chakras. THIS IS VERY DANGEROUS. It's not recommended to people that they meditate without proper guidance and instruction and don't recommend yogic breathing as that is one thing the astral entities LOVE... I steer people away from SRF, and kriya yoga, and TM meditation and any kind of meditation that is done without "setting up the proper protection." Kriyas are an "ASTRAL ENERGY" event. They like other breathing and nervous sytem practices... alter the nervous system and open up the chakras so that the human reality is now anchored more with the astral reality. THAT SPELLS TROUBLE WITH A CAPITAL T MEDITATION IS TROUBLE...... Many people get possessed through meditation. A practice that should NOT HAVE BEEN given to the masses. You can't give kriya to beginning Disciple level. Trouble is....the people at SRF have no idea WHO people are, they have no REAL discernment except what you write them, or in brief interviews or even the monks that live at the ashram...they're all still stuck in Disciple level. Tens of thousands of newagers are going around meditating when they have no idea what they are doing, they do the SRF exercises...without any discernment or protection....its a mess. The dark forces use ALL THESE techniques....they readily use Kriya, they use meditation, they use ANYTHING that affects your nervous system. All these techniques do are open you up to the astral worlds and astral energy. Something INDIA was big on doing ....but has caused a lot of trouble for the INDIAN people and now people in the west. Astral powers are NOT to be messed around with. You don't have to do yogic breathing to gain your freedom. All that does is tap you into the astral worlds and energy, it doesn't set you free. What happens once you start tapping into astral energies (meditation, yoga, breathing) depends on "who and what is waiting for you on the other side of the veil of energy." To achieve freedom you need to isolate yourself from astral influences by ascending beyond it - NOT WELCOME THEM IN.

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