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SRF Walrus > SRF Teachings and Ideals > Are the teachings bad?
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chrisparis Registered User (12/15/03 9:15 am) Reply	Re: Psychiatric Casualties Dear Yellowbeard, You write: "To show how the Lessons can be destructive, I'm going to present a case study excerpted from Psychiatric Annals 20:4/April 1990 by By Margaret Thaler Singer, Ph. D. and Richard Ofshe, Ph. D. entitled "Thought Reform Programs and the Production of Psychiatric Casualties". I'm going to add short comments in brackets to show how the subjects brought up relate to SRF teachings." ...and then you proceed to site a study that isn't relevant to the Kriya techniques at all, except as you explain them to be. You write: "If SRF meditation has benefited you so much, why aren't you mopping floors with an ear to ear smile at one of the ashrams?" ... as if this is somehow responsive, rather than just being a base attack. You write: "Come on, let's be a little bit honest here. Certainly you must be having some kind of problems if you're here. It's like going to therapy and telling the therapist that you're just fine, that there's nothing to talk about. The first step to getting help is to admit that there's a problem. Then we can deal with it." What "we"? I have participated on this board for over a year, and, while I might regard myself as a critic (of loose thinking or speaking, for or against SRF, PY, Kriya, etc), and a part of a support group (for people who have gone through a tough time like the one I went through since discovering on the SRF backside) I certainly don't consider myself a therapist in any way, shape or form. I think that would be rather arrogant, don't you agree? I don't imagine that the purpose of the Walrus is to provide another forum for SRF "bliss bunnies", but, at the same time, I don't think the purpose is to simply be a forum to reveal the "secret truth" that the kriya technique specifically, and meditation in general, is harmful. In fact, I imagine that, even among the most vociferously antagonistic toward SRF, Kriya, or Paramahansa Yogananda, you won't find many, if any at all, who have come to the conclusion that any form of meditiation is harmful. What's your agenda here YB?
username Registered User (12/15/03 10:18 am) Reply	Re: Psychiatric Casualties yellow- thanks for the link. I know SRF is harmful. I'm not sure I can divorce kriya from SRF yet. But, I think that the medical and therapists professions should be aware of this article. There are way to many "professionals" that are telling their patients to meditate to relieve stress and the patients end up in some cult. They would have been better off eating ice cream and watching tv for stress relief or exercising etc
SerenityNow7 Registered User (12/15/03 10:22 am) Reply	Re: Are the teachings bad? YB, I actually did start out to write a well thought out post in answer to yours. Then I thought about the fact that you've insulted me calling me a "bliss bunny", implied I'm dishonest, and that I don't give a damn about what's happened to the monastics. That's pretty insulting when the worst I called you was "hasty". You assume a great deal about me which is quite incorrect. You speak often on this board about the Truth and represent yourself as someone with spiritual authority. Do your actions reflect that? I think Punk Yogi's got your number and he's better at debating you than me, so I leave him to it. Thanks all of you who have been so kind to me as I worked out my doubts here. I'm not sure how much I'll be staying here as I'm pretty uncomfortable with this type of interaction. Take care all.
nagchampa2 Registered User (12/15/03 10:26 am) Reply	Re: Psychiatric Casualties MEDITATION AND THE SPIRITUAL LIFE By swami Yatiswarananda Reactions to Sadhana …This path is full of obstacles and difficulties, and to tread it means undergoing a good deal of suffering… People who meditate only for a few minutes a day may not know anything about these reactions. But those sincere aspirants who spend long hours in japa, prayer and contemplation are sure to face reactions coming from within them and also from without. Meditation is like churning the mind. When we try to concentrate the mind within, we profoundly disturb the unconscious part of the mind…When we try to control it; it rebels, setting up disturbing currents in our mind. These inner disturbances affect our actions and attitudes towards other which, in turn, invite reactions from the society in which we live. With all these reactions—internal and external—the spiritual aspirant soon finds out that meditative life is not a bed of roses… …Your troubles will even increase for a time. Even outer obstacles in the form of unfavorable reactions from your friends and relatives will grow… Sometimes even the body begins to revolt in every possible way. The mind becomes full of tension and rebellion. The nerves become high-strung. Old tendencies, old memories, old desires, get greater strength, and want to find expression on the physical plane… Causes of reaction …There are people who practise meditation and at the same time indulge in overeating, oversleeping, overwork or meaningless and untidy work, talking too much or talking nonsense, and similar things. Irregular and irresponsible ways of life are incompatible with spiritual aspirations. Those who cannot follow a systematic way of live and regular good habits will find spiritual life impossible. …One cause of adverse reaction is attempting too much…They don’t have the nervous strength to withstand the physical and mental strain caused by prolonged meditation…many misguided people attempt too many things at a time. In addition to meditation they try their hand at pranayama (usually without proper guidance) and various forms of austerities. Depriving the body of normal food, rest, and sleep will only add to the strain caused by sitting in one posture for a long time trying to control the mind. The result is exhaustion of mental powers or a nervous breakdown which often causes serious troubles…Nervous or high-strung people should not attempt too much meditation all the sudden. They should go slowly…Incontinent people will find their brains getting heated up easily. …There is yet another cause of reactions in sadhana, namely the shifting of the center of one’s consciousness. Before turning to spiritual life, the consciousness of an average man moves along the lower centers. His normal life is concerned with eating, sleeping and sense enjoyment. Turning to spiritual life, he finds he can no longer allow himself to be carried away by lower thoughts and activities. He feels the need for higher thoughts, and this means shifting of the center of consciousness. When you try to shift the center of your consciousness to the level of the heart or the head, you find that you cannot hold on to these centers for long. You then find that you have no fixed center of consciousness. This results in profound unsettlement of the mind. To live in the world and deal with objects without any inner reference point is a very disturbing experience. The aspirant finds that he can neither meditation on the Deity in a higher center or consciousness, nor dwell in the lower centers and enjoy the world as he formerly used to do. When the ego consciousness wanders without a fixed point, the aspirant becomes less sure of himself, and then his character and conduct may become unsteady for a time. This is an unavoidable stage in the course of spiritual progress. …No one is spared this unsettlement and this crisis, but then they should ask the spiritual guide what to do, and discuss with him about their practices. …Many people break down under these reactions. Maybe become completely unsettled for a time…While people are leading a worldly life they do not become really aware of all these phases, but spiritual practice, if properly performed, always stirs up different subconscious currents, and this leads to unsettlement. Very often in such cases there is no strength left; sometimes there comes a long period of disturbance and vacillation, and even moral instability. …He who does not fulfill the conditions of yama and niyama will not attain anything. His energy will be too small to enable them to stand the stress and pressure bearing down upon him from all sides. That is why no aspirant can afford to waste energy unnecessarily through physical and mental channels. The old teachers knew perfectly well why they had to prescribe the disciplines of yama and niyama, why they had to be so strict about morality. If these rules are not fulfilled, the result can be only a nervous breakdown, a greater weakening of all our powers and a greater slavery to the senses. Do not think these are mere theories. We too have passed through these early stages of spiritual life, and we have seen and heard so much from our great teachers… …During this period of his sadhana an aspirant should be treated very kindly and with great understanding, because the unsettlement is not his fault, if one may say so, but the consequence of his spiritual practice… Edited by: nagchampa2 at: 1/7/04 6:44 am
ugizralrite Registered User (12/15/03 11:11 am) Reply	Re: Psychiatric Casualties There is a lot of ugliness and turmoil here today, and hurt. But I am learning things as well. Anecdotal reports of the harmful effects of meditation are just that. And in the real world everything is anecdotal to the frustration of statisticians. In the psychic territories that intuitive people explore there are ups and downs, and here on walrus we are sharing our ups and downs. For example in the past few months, cut free increasingly of SRF, I have taken it upon myself to increase my kriya practice. It has been shared here that too much of a good thing has caused others to experience degrees of discomfort. As noted elsewhere I have of late been experiencing short but alarming periods of nervous fatigue. Had these issues not been aired on walrus it may have taken me much longer to ask if perhaps I should cut back in kriya. So, in short, we really do need each other here in the absence of formerly reliable authority, and I hope that love and understanding will rule.
nagchampa2 Registered User (12/15/03 1:00 pm) Reply	Re: Psychiatric Casualties (This message was left blank) Edited by: nagchampa2 at: 12/23/03 8:08 am
etzchaim Registered User (12/15/03 2:11 pm) Reply	Re: Psychiatric Casualties Kriya will speed up the 'growth' that a person is experiencing in life - in other words, the person will evolve quicker - karma starts to burn off faster, etc. When someone is not used to this, or there is simply too much energy happening that the persons system - physical, mental or spiritual - cannot contain it, control it or process it properly, problems like nervous energy or disorders will result. Cutting down the number of Kriyas or stopping and using very simple meditation techniques or prayer helps. The same things occur when the Kundalini starts to go up prematurely, when it is not centered. Imaging light or energy in the very center of the spine, or consciously moving it to the center is important to do, so that when energy starts moving up, it will move up in the center channel. The more powerful the technique, the more danger there is when it is used improperly. It's important to be aware of keeping your life in balance.
username Registered User (12/15/03 4:06 pm) Reply	Re: Psychiatric Casualties What proof is there to the SRF claim that practicing kriya burns up karma? Nothing else SRF has said is true, why should this be true? Any input on the subject would be appreciated. Thanks.
soulcircle Registered User (12/15/03 5:13 pm) Reply	I agree ugizralrite Hi Guests and All, "I hope that love and understanding will rule." thank you for this line in your post ugizralrite ~~~ And username, I don't know if others will reply You might find it interesting, that I have benefitted over the last six years from acknowledging my emotions and doing emotional work............and a complete break from kriya, perhaps cause the results were not as important as being with my feelings ....a complete break from kriya was wonderful I have asked in other posts, where is the love thank you username for asking where is the proof? ~~~~~~ whatever you all do with kriya or not, I wish you compassionate lives and creativity ~~~~~~ each random act of kindness that I find in here, I celebrate, as I love you all maythecircle be unbroken Edited by: soulcircle at: 12/15/03 5:14 pm
nagchampa2 Registered User (12/15/03 5:20 pm) Reply	Re: Psychiatric Casualties (This message was left blank) Edited by: nagchampa2 at: 12/23/03 8:09 am
soulcircle Registered User (12/15/03 10:18 pm) Reply	so true......other discipines say Hi Guests and All, Other businesses/disciplines say their wares...... like the huckster andhis wagon in colonial times with their quack remedy that cured all.........say that their wares work and are the best. "Other disciplines say the same," [we are listening nagchamp2] and yet that is hearsay and lacking of proof. We know the "spiritual" folks talk the talk, yet the proof is in the pudding, not their words!! ~~~~~~~~~~~~ There is a very deep tradition of prayer and meditation.......... ~~~~~~~~~~~ we are looking more specifically at kriya as the very key to heaven and there is no proof........... there isn't even one soul here, who by their example is showing this to be the case and other than out-smiling and out-hypnotizing more recent entrants on the kriya highway........... all the direct disciples are subject to question. yet this is a complex topic, this kriya, and any of our individual theorems is going to be a study of its own. Jason Becker's comment on the four direct disciples he has known (passing trough or in Northern California) in the last several years, is that they are active and calm. Yes in the scientific exam, he is also being warm and thankful and positive in response to my introducing him to three of them, and our shared time with a fourth. He is nice in appreciating our social experience and meditations with each of them. Yet each of them is really no different than you, Jason or me. Walking the walk is done on a daily basis by a caregiver at his side these ten years (actually living in his home as in several past years). Yes the proof I have seen of love and a humorous wisdom is in Serrana Kassamali's life from her 16th year to her fresent 40th. I see her regularly these last ten years. Interestingly she is not a sales person like every srf'er. And she doens't buy into "disciplines." And buy the way there are five people presently in jason's home with people coming and going and his parents next door. Adam and Serrana's child, James, and Serrana's mother Doris, are in Jason home, making it a three generation home! ~~~~~~~ Four disciples who were with PY in person: Bimilananda has his life/act on this stage down to an art, yes? Ken Olson barks up some of the same karma-trees as us. Ed Madden married a lady with zero interest in meditation, lived a good bit of his life with her, and only with a matchmaker (he and a Richmond attender both took pictures of PY into the same frame shop an hour from Richmond chapel), a frame shop keeper.......only with the resulting introduction did he discover of a California Bay Area chapel. He had lived here for decades not practicing to speak of, and oblivious of the current active nearby group. Sister Priya talks the talk, yet........ Three in their 80's and Sister younger..... and all four rather calm and active in their public moments, as Jason says. laughing, time for some jokes again? cornflakes circle......... Edited by: soulcircle at: 12/15/03 10:24 pm
OneTaste Registered User (12/15/03 10:28 pm) Reply	Re: so true......other discipines say *Quote:* Bimilananda has his life/act on this stage down to an art, yes? Dave, can you clarify what you are saying here? It can be taken two ways and I don't want to assume which way you are going with it.
soulcircle Registered User (12/15/03 10:48 pm) Reply	Bimilananda Hi Guests and All, We do not know Bimilananda's private life, i.e. his rationalization for being a "god" among second-class disposable "devotees." We do know that he touches very many with music, prayer and tangible love. So it is meant in both ways. As I understand myself, though incompletely.......I am a mixed bag........complex and alive ......hence I see him from my perspective and i truly loved a full day with him and his sister and another in the last year or so.........part of what I truly loved is when he clearly saw in me and in my comments that he is not and never will be a God to me, and in the respect I have for myself [he is around sheep a lot] he sensed he was with a relatively guilt-free fool ***** Bimilananda is an equal, a friend a man who approaches goodness, and can sing with understanding and compassion ~~~~~~~ nothing more there is nothing more let the tiger out circle Edited by: soulcircle at: 12/15/03 10:53 pm
etzchaim Registered User (12/16/03 5:28 am) Reply	Re: Psychiatric Casualties My own personal experiences tell me that Kriya, as well as other meditation techniques, self-work, intense introspection, etc., burns up karma. If you want scientific proof, you will have to wait generations. That's fine with me. It's not something that has to be believed in. Most karma is burned off in the astral plane, whether a person is actively meditating or not. The most subtle karma manifests in the higher chakras and as it begins to manifest physically, it will fall into the lower chakras, till it gets to the base chakra where it will manifest in purely in the physical plane. Heat that is felt mainly in the spine is part of an active burning off process. I notice this happening often when I do something that creates an effect directly related to correcting something I'd done in the past. It's very important for each person to discover what works best for them. That is the primary reason why SRF is wrong in insisting that people only learn from their publications. Not everyone will benefit from Kriya - there are many, many paths. If it's not working for you, you SHOULD leave and discover who you are with whatever resources you have available to you. Kriya was never meant to be a fundamentalist teaching. It's very disturbing that it has become so through SRF.
soulcircle Registered User (12/16/03 2:25 pm) Reply	private worlds of forgetfulness Hi Guests and All, the question is specific and is about kriya yoga ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ feelings deep in my and the collective psyche speak well about prayer and meditation in general with one huge cavaet in my mind! [I have just spent 30 minutes setting ground rules with a new online acquaitance from Hinesville GA, surrounded by a former lover, and present lover and 18 others, cousins and stuff in the military.. being an activist and be involved with issues of the day....peace and war is the discussion the Georgian and I have begun, and will enter into again, having found it mutually beneficial] ...so the huge cavaet.......personally I find prayer, meditation and the spiritual life a lie when it is not balanced by a heavy dose of activism there's is nothing spiritual in my opinion about sitting in a cave and wishing the world well, as the U.S. (and India's) experiment with democracy becomes a thing of the past, and as corporations grab the very air the world breathes to sell as a commodity for profit in my opinion more than half of the people in church worldwide this last Sunday were getting a buzz on the opium of their private worlds (shared with a billion or so other worshippers, SRF and Ananda included) ...........their private worlds of forgetfulness and the world is worse off for their habitual passive habit i feel activism guided by spirit and a spiritual activist have a benefit that ripples out to the world and is responsible for the good things we have now I certainly don't expect to change the world ..yet the world won't change me, the world won't change the dreams and feelings I have for my fellow space travellers back to the subject, whether other techniques are good, such as quiet and retreat are not the question ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ kriya kriya does kriya [and without kind attitude it don't work] Hello Houston, does kriya work? Dave Edited by: soulcircle at: 12/16/03 2:26 pm
ugizralrite Registered User (12/16/03 9:17 pm) Reply	Re: Are the teachings bad? Soulcircle states: "...so the huge cavaet.......personally I find prayer, meditation and the spiritual life a lie when it is not balanced by a heavy dose of activism" --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dawnrays likes to quote "Before enlightenment chop wood carry water, after enlightenment, chop wood carry water". You, soulcircle, are by nature an activist, and so for you to not combine your spirituality with your activism would be a lie. I think that each individual has to work with who one is and to make peace with that. I have been on a Patanjali "kick" this week and to support my post I refer to what he said about applying spirituality to issues of good and evil. "1.33. The peace of the chitta (or mind stuff) can be brought about through the practice of sympathy, tenderness, steadiness of purpose, and dispassion in regard to pleasure or pain, or toward all forms of good or evil." To me what he seems to be saying here is to open ourselves up to suffering, to genuinely get engaged in it, and to embrace it wholly. The neighbor of one person may be an unknown to another person. So we encounter suffering in our particular circumstances. For example, one might drive past a horse standing in a field in the cold rain, and seek to understand how this could be. What a person does next depends on circumstance and temperament. Once I saw a dead dog lying in the road and against the advice of my brother I went to the nearest house to inform the owner. I was nearly attacked and accused of killing the dog myself, and my brother was obviously enjoying my plight. So the choice is whether or not to go lecture the horse owner about leaving the horse out in the rain. In truth we are confronting our own pain and trying to come to grips with it. To get to the bottom of suffering, theodicy or the problem of evil as it is called, we have to go to the spiritual well and put it to God, "How can you allow this?" Perhaps the question will be rejected simply because we don't have all the information. We have failed to look at all sides of the issue, perhaps clinging too tightly to our own world view and refusing to apply sympathy to the other side. The best questions mature into their own answers, dispassion (objectivity) ensues. I think this means a transformation to seeing the situation through God's eyes. So it is not so much the scope of the issues of suffering that matter, but our reaction to any suffering in our path, no matter how insignificant it may seem to outside observers. Someone here was talking about a sandwich, and maybe it would work to draw a parallel to the chop-wood/enlightenment/chop-wood. We start from where we are and in the end we are at peace with who we are, and in the middle is spiritual practice (kriya or whatever). We can't all save the world in big bites, but "let there be peace and let it begin with me" is probably enough anyway.
soulcircle Registered User (12/17/03 2:27 am) Reply	username wrote a year ago Hi Guests and All, Earth to Houston, does kriya yoga work? username started this thread with: *Quote:* If all the monks and nuns are depressed and the leaders of SRF are "bad ladies" doing mean things to people, and the head of Ananda is sexually violating women, and the great grandson of lahiri is sexually abusing women, and the leader of another group is expecting UFO's to land ----- WOULDN'T ALL THIS INDICATE THAT KRIYA YOGA IS not a very good or helpful practice. Wouldn't one conclude that kriya yoga IS the problem? It appears that they are alot of SRF people who are mentally unstable, married 4 times etc etc. the silence is deafening........ Dave
etzchaim Registered User (12/17/03 5:56 am) Reply	Re: username wrote a year ago It's not silent here, Circle, the silence is only deafening to you, because you are not hearing what people are saying. If you are an activist, then that is who you are. You should live your live without guilt, without shame, without fear, and extend that blessing to others, who are, most likely, different from you. In my experience with life, most of which has been spent involved with various mystical and religious expressions, I have noticed that serious damage occurs when people try to force people, sometimes very cleverly and subtley, using guilt and various kinds of manipulative forms of persuasion, into being who they are not. Where I have seen vibrancy and health is in situations where people are taught to discover who they are and given the tools to grow into themselves, while at the same time, being taught and encouraged to see the differences in others as part of what makes this world beautiful and fulfilling, and not a threat. Part of the issue with Kriya is that it requires a flow of energy. If one is involved in a restricted 'worldview', where even slight differences are cause for conflict and produce a need to control, what do you think will happen to the Kriya? Another issue is not staying centered. If the internal and the external are the same, what do you think happens when one is polarized into "Left" and "Right" thinking, where the world is populated by "Us" and "Them", those who are "Good" and those who are "Bad"? Force is not a flow, and unless one is completely centered and has no blockages, the "flow" is highly likely to become a jagged stream and take a person down their own road of imbalanced personality traits, very human desires for power and projections of ones own insecurity. Does Kriya work? Well......it's a tool. A tool requires understanding to use it. It's worked for many people I know, and from what others have said, others who are not the so called bliss bunnys, it's also worked for them. For many people, it doesn't work. These people are also not wrong. They are absolutely right, for them and others who are having their experience. Is there one way for everyone? No. We all need to discover ourselves and let others do the same.
username Registered User (12/17/03 8:02 am) Reply	Re: Are the teachings bad? Is SRF a restricted "worldview"?
etzchaim Registered User (12/17/03 8:28 am) Reply	Re: Are the teachings bad? "Is SRF a restricted "worldview"? " Does SRF try to restrict which 'church' people can go to, which books people can read, which teachers people can learn from, which 'lifestyle' people should live, etc.? When people do not conform to SRF 'ways', what is the reaction from people in authority? Are those who question SRF treated with respect? Is there transparency and openness within SRF? Does SRF teach respect for other Guru's and ways to God? These are just on the surface. Much of the damage appears to be implied, leading people to feel that they are not spiritual enough, advanced enough, or that if they leave, for what ever reason, they are falling in some way, while people who tow the line are made to feel more special than others, the SRF view is held to be superior to other paths and religions, which are not blessed with the stamp of an "Avatar", or rather, several "Avatars". This appears to be being used with an odd philosophy of "perfection" where strayers from the fold, even if they are not even straying, are overtly and subtley attacked for being human. This is common in all Fundamentalist settings, though the terms used will differ. If my experiences with Astral7 were in any way typical, any person who has a Guru other than Yogananda is spiritually undeveloped and not worthy of the higher path that is SRF. If this is not a restricted and damaging worldview, I do not know what is. When a person comes under attack for being where they are at, it is very easy to fall into a pit of despair which will dissallow any progress to be made. Hope and self confidence, believing that one is essentially "OK" and can make progress is vital to actually succeeding. This doesn't mean pandering to an ego - often the most egoistic people are those who have low self-esteem. Edited by: etzchaim at: 12/17/03 8:57 am

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