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Ringbearer7 Registered User (2/14/03 4:07 pm) Reply	Meaning of Guru I wanted to express some thoughts on this because this concept caused me a fair bit of anxiety early in my involvement with SRF. In SRF it seems that the guru is elevated to the status of ones divinely ordained eternal savior - very close to the Christian concept. If one leaves the guru then one is doomed to wander in delusion until he returns to the guru. I don't think this is merely a construct of SRF after Yoganadaji's passing. I believe that Yogananda also expounded this same view of the eternal nature of the relationship between guru and disciple. This is heavy stuff and to be honest I don't really buy it. Don't get me wrong - I think Yoganandaji was a great Yogi but still I think his own strongly devotional feelings toward his own Master colored his view of what the guru-disciple relationship means in general. I recall reading in Swami Satyananda's biography of Swami Sri Yukteswarji that Sri Yukteswarji said that if one find that it is necessary to go to someone else to progress spiritually then that is ok but there should always be respect and gratitude for the previous teacher(s)...something like this. It seems that Sri Yukteswar's view of guru-disciple was much more natural, rational and human when compared to Yogananda's view. I wish I could find the exact quote right now - I will try to find it later. And this whole deal of commiting yourself to an eternal relationship with someone you have never met! This caused me no end of trouble in my early years in SRF. Maybe it is ok for some but it sent my mind turning in circles! Perhaps some really do have a relationship with Yoganandaji from previous lives and in this case they feel quite natural in this situation. For me it was not natural at all - I can't have a relationship or make a comittment to someone I have never met regardless of how much I enjoy his writings, teachings, etc. Does anybody here have any idea how the notion of guru has evolved since the passing of Yogananda? In my ideal the eternalness of the relationship between guru-disciple is not created by repeating a pledge - it is formed over time as true spiritual friendship blossoms and God gives it his blessing. No spoken pledge is necessary in true friendship. This seems the natural way. Reciting a pledge to commit yourself to another you have never met just seems to lead to trouble - at least it did for me. My Guru is no where if not right between my eyes.
chela2020 Registered User (2/14/03 5:17 pm) Reply	Re: Meaning of Guru Ringbearer: You stated: "I recall reading in Swami Satyananda's biography of Swami Sri Yukteswarji that Sri Yukteswarji said that if one find that it is necessary to go to someone else to progress spiritually then that is ok but there should always be respect and gratitude for the previous teacher." I can understand your concern. I really don't know how those things evolved in SRF. I can only tell you what I learned from the Vedanta Society, if that would be of any help. First, that above statement that I just quoted from you is very true. That is what I was taught. I had a lot of concern over choosing another guru when I went to Vedanta. No one even suggested I choose another guru. It just so happened that I met one and felt that I could progress better if I had a guru who was in the flesh, one with whom I could talk, and who could help me directly. Not that Yogananda was not helping me, but I felt I needed more. I was told if your guru has passed over it is okay to choose another. Another swami said that some devotees have many gurus, which is in line with your statement. I also asked about the statement that I had heard: "If you leave your guru you will wander for several incarnations," or however it was put. I was told if you leave the path, or your guru, the moment you return to God, he is there. I believe the savior idea is that the guru takes on one's karma. I have also read this in "My Guru and His Disciple": "According to Hindu belief, the tie between the guru and his initiated disciple cannot be broken, either in this world or on any future plant of existence, until the disciple realizes the Atman within himself and is thus set free. Meanwhile, the disciple may neglect, reject, or even betray the guru, but the guru cannot disown him. In such cases, the guru must continue to guide teh disciple mentally, from a distance, and protect him through prayer." I hope this has helped.
Devotee1970 Registered User (2/14/03 8:07 pm) Reply	Re: Meaning of Guru I technically decided a few months ago to retire from the Walrus, but I guess I’ll make a special guest appearance . . . Yogananda did stress the eternal nature of the relationship between the disciple and the guru. He used the term “guru” in this context to refer to the “satguru” — the instrument through whom God has chosen to ultimately liberate a devotee, as opposed to an ordinary spiritual teacher. However, Yogananda also stressed the benefit of receiving guidance from a guru in physical form. Volume I of The Second Coming of Christ (Yogananda’s commentaries on the New Testament) published by the Amrita Foundation discusses this subject detail. Here are a few pertinent quotes from this text: “[When the prayers of errant children] become deep and strong enough, God is touched and sends help. It is then that God sends a superman on earth to give help to the lost seeking souls. Such a man, ordained by God, to help the individual in response to deep prayer, is not an ordinary teacher, but a GURU or a vehicle, whose body, speech, mind and spirituality, God himself uses to bring the lost souls back to the Home of Immortality.” “It is more easy to follow a living, breathing, talking man (who lives truth) than a mute scripture . . . .” “A scripture, no matter what records of spiritual truth it contains in its bosom, is not as useful as a saint, who is veritably a walking, talking, living scripture . . . .” The gurus of Yogananda’s lineage are not living. Unless you are so spiritually advanced that you can speak to them in the astral world, the only way to receive guidance from a “walking, talking, living scripture” is to speak to someone who is alive today – assuming you are fortunate enough to find a true living saint. It is my understanding that you may meet your satguru only once in physical form during your many incarnations, though it is also possible that you may both incarnate at the same time at some later point. If your guru is not living at the same time you are, he or she will help guide you to the teachers and teachings that you most need in order to continue growing. By cutting off communication with the rest of the world because you are waiting for your satguru to appear in a vision and tell you what to do, you may actually be spurning his guidance. This is not, of course, to say that you should not be selective about whom you rely upon for advice. Ultimately we need to recognize that the source of all wisdom is within each of us and learn to find the answers within ourselves. Listen to whomever you like, but trust the God within you. True gurus want you to do this. As Yogananda said: “Most teachers who slavishly control their students after the pattern of dogmatic teachings destroy the power of free will in them, but obedience to a Guru does not produce spiritual blindness in the disciple. On the contrary, it develops his third eye of wisdom and intuition. Most teachers want their students to see through the teacher’s eyes, but a Guru disciplines the disciple only until he can guide himself through wisdom.” Regarding the guru-disciple pledge, I recently corresponded with a direct disciple who told me that during Yogananda’s travels in the 1920s and 30s he freely initiated all who were interested in learning and practicing kriya without requiring them to become his disciples. He also initiated other spiritual teachers without their having to be his personal disciples. I am unclear as to when or why the requirement for discipleship as a prerequisite for kriya came into being. Peace, friends.
Ringbearer7 Registered User (2/14/03 8:10 pm) Reply	Re: Meaning of Guru Who wrote this book "My Guru and His Disciple?" The quote you gave sounds very close to the SRF view of the guru. I grant the possibility that such a spiritual bond could exist between two souls. However, I am extremely doubtful that such a bond between you and a person you have never met is created by the mere recitation of a pledge. This seems very unnatural and out of line with the Indian tradition. The unnaturalness of all this just created fear and confusion in me and caused a lot of wasted energy that I could have instead of devoted toward practicing the techniques and acheiving my own salvation. I wonder how much of this was from Yoganandaji and how much of this was later distortion by disciples after his passing? I wonder if Yogananda really intended for himself to be the last in the line? Perhaps he was just called back to Spirit somewhat unexpectedly and didn't have the time or thought to appoint a successor? Or perhaps he expected Rajasi or Dr. Lewis to be his successor in the lineage? Probably either one would have been more than qualified to do so. I don't know but I do feel that situation with SRF as it has evolved is a very unnatural one for me in this regard.
Ringbearer7 Registered User (2/14/03 8:17 pm) Reply	Re: Meaning of Guru "Regarding the guru-disciple pledge, I recently corresponded with a direct disciple who told me that during Yogananda’s travels in the 1920s and 30s he freely initiated all who were interested in learning and practicing kriya without requiring them to become his disciples. He also initiated other spiritual teachers without their having to be his personal disciples. I am unclear as to when or why the requirement for discipleship as a prerequisite for kriya came into being." Yes, I think this is the way things were more traditionally. It seems so much more natural. Of course there should be basic respect and trust but I don't see why one needs to commit to the "eternal guru-disciple" relationship in order to receive Kriya. I don't know why things evolved in this way.
Devotee1970 Registered User (2/14/03 8:27 pm) Reply	Re: Meaning of Guru I AGREE with you Ringbearer. I probably shouldn't have quoted -- quotes are usually a very, very bad idea. I did so only to support the notion that the SRF's idea of requiring people to take a pledge to a person they have never met is ridiculous and that Yogananda himself emphasized the importance of "real world" guidance. My point was that THE PLEDGE DOES NOT CREATE THE BOND. The bond, if you believe in such things, is either there or it isn't, and there's no way of really knowing for sure if you have a such a relationship with someone who isn't living, and it really doesn't matter because whoever your satguru is, if you believe in such people, will help you in any case. My belief is that Yogananda told people he was the last in his line because he didn't believe anyone was qualified to take his place (who would live long enough or who would live long enough AND HAD BAD ENOUGH KARMA to have to run such an organization). The reason I mentioned that Yogananda gave kriya freely to many without requiring discipleship was to show that it makes no sense to require discipleship 51 years after his death, particularly since he didn't always require it during his lifetime (and I would be against the requirement today even if he had always required it). No problem if people feel they are or might be his disciple and want to take a vow -- just don't force it. I remember why I left now -- so much room for misunderstanding on message boards. Sorry if I was unclear in my last post. Bye. Edited by: Devotee1970 at: 2/14/03 8:56:11 pm
srfwalrus ezOP (2/14/03 11:05 pm) Reply	Devotee1970 Devotee1970, Don’t think everyone misunderstands your messages. There are literally hundreds of readers of this board. We have received a lot of email expressing appreciation for most of the debates, ideas, and contributions. Airing things out is helping people to adapt their thinking about SRF and in some cases strengthen their faith in the bigger issues. We do appreciate your contributions.
Ringbearer7 Registered User (2/14/03 11:48 pm) Reply	Re: Meaning of Guru Actually, I didn't find your post in disagreement with what I was saying - I thought what you wrote more or less confirmed my own thinking on this topic. I don't think I came across as being defensive in my post to you. If so I didn't intend to. I appreciated you post and also the information that you conveyed regarding your conversations with an early disciple of Paramhansaji. Edited by: Ringbearer7 at: 2/14/03 11:51:15 pm
Devotee1970 Registered User (2/15/03 12:09 am) Reply	Re: Devotee1970 And I appreciate the contributions of you, Walrus, of you, Ringbearer (you weren't being defensive -- I was the one who was misreading) and of everyone else. You have all helped me to heal -- even those of you from the astral(7) world. I have felt pain around this issue of vows and dead avatars too, Ringbearer. Learning to love Yogananda without worrying about whether he is my "guru" or whether he was perfect has been an important lesson for me. He is a child of God, as are we all. God loves us all equally and wants us to learn to love like he does. What difference does it make who He picks to be play the parts of heroes and who he picks to play the parts of villians? We are all part of the greater whole on a journey back home. Learning to love and to be receptive to God's love and guidance in whatever form it comes to us it what's important. So, if you want to love God through Yogananda, great. You will grow closer to God by doing so, whether he is your guru or not. If this doesn't work for you, love God in whatever way feels natural. Each one of us needs to find love in his own way, in his own time. When we can love the people who have hurt us the most as much as we love our gurus or whoever is most important to us, then we're really on to something. But we also need to express anger when necessary without feeling any #$@#% guilt. Learn to love YOURSELF. One of the hardest things for some people to do after being told for years that there's something wrong with them because they're not "self-realized" (whatever the hell that means) is to love themselves unconditionally and realize that who they are RIGHT NOW is GOOD and PART OF GOD'S PLAN. There are no greater or lesser roles and no greater or lesser souls. Be here, and be yourself! It's okay to push yourself a little every now and then, but don't push yourself off a cliff into oblivion. You are God's child. You are important and meaningful just as you are. Darth Vader possessed siddhis. Those things don't make you a better person. Be kind, be compassionate, be loving, do kriya if you want, and let enlightenment take care of itself. Forget about all the @##$%# details. Karma shmarma! The details don't matter. Love matters. If you try your best to be a loving person, God will track YOU down. If you LIKE details, fine. It doesn't hurt to focus on them in your free time if you put LOVE FIRST. It's not "out there" -- it's in you -- each one of you. Yogananda just came because we don't believe that what's in him is in us too. BELIEVE IN YOURSELF! I believe in you all, and I love you. Devotee1970 Edited by: Devotee1970 at: 2/15/03 12:23:31 am*
chela2020 Registered User (2/15/03 1:51 am) Reply	My Guru and His Disciple Ringbearer, The book "My Guru and His Disciple" was written by Christopher Isherwood about his guru Swami Prabhavananda of the Vedanta Society. I believe you have to purchase it through the book stores since it is not a book published through the Vedanta Press. There isn't much else in the book that says anything about the guru/disciple relationship in the nature of what you are speaking of, because it is mainly about the relationship that Isherwood had with his guru.
chela2020 Registered User (2/15/03 2:06 am) Reply	Re: Devotee1970 Devotee1970, Your postings are beautiful--full of love. I am glad that you came back to post these messages because you have so much to offer, but I can understand your leaving, when at times, there is miscommunication on this board.
Devotee1970 Registered User (2/15/03 6:29 am) Reply	Re: Smiles Thanks, chela. My guest pass is running out, but before I go again, I'll leave you with a little musical entertainment. Sing it to Jimmy Buffet's "Margaritaville." livin’ on curry life goes by in a hurry gotta find God now before it’s too late but there’s no bliss in the blender to help me surrender and so I sit here and just hesitate wasting away again in yoga-shmoga-ville searching for my . . . true exalted state some people claim that there’s a guuuuuuurrrru to blame but I know . . . it’s nobody’s fault ordered some lessons to keep me from guessin’ found no answers – just a roadmap to Oz so I just keep complainin’ and my soul is a strainin’ to find the real thing – not more spiritual laws wasting away again in yoga-shmoga-ville searching for my . . . true exalted state some people claim that there’s a guuuuuuurrrru to blame but I know . . . hell, it could be my fault runnin’ outta words now don’t really know how I got this far without havin’ a clue but I guess it’s all alright I’ll just sleep with my nightlight And maybe the Big Guy will tell me what’s True wasting away again in yoga-shmoga-ville searching for my . . . true exalted state some people claim that there’s a guuuuuuurrrru to blame but I know . . . it’s my own damn fault Shine on, Beautiful Ones! You are Truth. You are Love. Devotee1970 -- signing off one more time
Ringbearer7 Registered User (2/15/03 4:21 pm) Reply	Re: Meaning of Guru Here was the quote I was looking for in Swami Satyananda's bio of Swami Sri Yukteswar. Here he is quoting Sri Yukteswarji: "What is the point in being taken aback by the word 'guru'? Guru means weighty, meaning one who is more weighty or knowledgeable than you, from whom you can learn. If it is necessary, then after completing your learning from him, you can take shelter in an even higher guru -- like going to a professor of an insitution of higher learning after grade school. But one must remember to have proper respect and humility towards everyone." (Copyright 2002 Sevayatan and Yoga Niketan) This is a very natural and rational perspective in my opinion but I don't think you would ever hear anything like this from SRF today. Why? Is it because Yogananda's nature was very devotional whereas his Master's nature was much more analytical and thus the differences in the emphasis of their presentations of the concept of guru? Or is it because of the influence of Western society and the need to adapt to Western concepts of savior, salvation, sin, etc? Or is it because of changes that occurred after Paramhansa's Mahasamadhi? Or perhaps all of these?
djali123 Registered User (2/15/03 5:11 pm) Reply	Re: Meaning of Guru The first lessons ask you to pray to the gurus as a matter of fact, even though it's not the same as an eternal pledge. Prayers, reverence, devotion all this stuff made me uncomfortable especially in the beginning. It seemed like I was coerced to do something I didn't really feel. I guess this was most due to my growing up without religion. Perhaps someone christian would fit in it well. But then Yogananda came to a christian country so wanted to appeal to the christian majority. If the US were mostly buddhist we would probably have Buddha instead of Jesus on the altar. I find it hard to believe that Sriyukteswar would have the liberal view of the guru concept and Yogananda have an almost contrary one(unless the words attributed to PY in his books are not really his). After all Yogananda learned from Sriyukteswar. Maybe Yogananda had the strong guru concept but gave kriya freely without requiring discipleship. Perhaps he changed his mind by the end and didn't want to give kriya to anyone who asks for it. Or he wanted to have students more committed or it was an idea of SRF after he passed away.
Ringbearer7 Registered User (2/16/03 12:31 am) Reply	Re: Meaning of Guru "I find it hard to believe that Sriyukteswar would have the liberal view of the guru concept and Yogananda have an almost contrary one." Why? They were different human beings with obviously quite different mental natures. The great disciples of a Master are not carbon copies of the Master. From what I have read it seems that Sri Yukteswarji gave a lot of room his disciples to think for themselves and encouraged them to do so. "Maybe Yogananda had the strong guru concept but gave kriya freely without requiring discipleship. Perhaps he changed his mind by the end and didn't want to give kriya to anyone who asks for it. Or he wanted to have students more committed or it was an idea of SRF after he passed away." Yes, I am curious why this change took place - why in the early years apparently discipleship (i.e. eternal guru-disciple relationship) was not a requirement for Kriya but now it is. When was this change made? I seem to recall a hand written letter from Paramhansa saying something to the effect that "everyone wants Kriya these days...but it is only for disciples." This was in one of the letters that SRF sent to members explaining their lawsuit against Ana*da.
soulcircle Registered User (2/16/03 1:04 am) Reply	living on curry Devotee1970, this song for me is the rainbow blessing this board/world One marvels, laughs, loves and lives better circle
djali123 Registered User (2/16/03 9:10 am) Reply	Re: Meaning of Guru In the 1931-1932 srf magazines the view he had by the end was already shaped.
GregsBrother Registered User (3/1/03 11:50 am) Reply	Devotee 1970 song That song to the tune of Margaritaville was AWESOME! Nothing like hitting the nail on the head in fact, and using humor to do it. great post
soulcircle Registered User (3/1/03 12:25 pm) Reply	Greg's bro HI!! I emailed you today and it was returned unknown. Reminds me of the post you labored over that escaped your computer b 4 you posted it Help circle
soulcircle Registered User (3/1/03 12:27 pm) Reply	livin on curry livin on curry, life goes by in a hurry ain't it so!!!! we all like that song a bunch Devotee it won our Grammy!!!!!
GregsBrother Registered User (3/2/03 8:34 am) Reply	Re: livin on curry I emailed you SS!

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