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ranger20 Registered User (12/17/03 8:48 am) Reply	Re: Are the teachings bad? >Is SRF a restricted "worldview"? I think you've hit a real keyword here, "worldview," because I've been thinking for some time that this is one of the elements that makes SRF "sticky." It does present a coherent worldview, in an era when past religious or even secular worldviews are in disarray. Nobody really believes the older fullscale view of Chrisendom as portrayed by Dante. Nobody really believes in classical Marxism. Nobody really much believes in such basic tenets of capitalism as the myth of "progress." I believe that the rise in fundamentalism in some Hindu, Muslim and Christian people is one fairly predictable symptom of the fact that the old cradle to grave accounts of where the person fits in a grand cosmic story, no longer work. Another response, that binds SRF people past and present, is that at some point we took refuge in the SRF worldview. Leaving for a moment, whether it is "good or bad," "healthy or unhealthy," it is at least, coherent. It presents an internally consistent account of the universe, the origin of life, the purpose of life, and it allows me to locate myself within this grand story. As looking behind the curtain brings down this structure, I find that the remembered security of my early days as a "true believer" are a theme of nostalgia, not unlike a remembered childhood in the country. Is the SRF worldview restrictive? Compared to what? What worldview is non restrictive, in that it admits some possibilities while excluding others?
etzchaim Registered User (12/17/03 9:08 am) Reply	Re: Are the teachings bad? "Is the SRF worldview restrictive? Compared to what? What worldview is non restrictive, in that it admits some possibilities while excluding others?" I don't know, Ranger20, there are views of reality that are open to other views, and views of reality that are not open, and often these closed systems use guilt and forms of manipulation to keep people in line. Let's take my student employee, the Fundamentalist Lutheran. He has been taught that no matter how 'good' a person is, (and I've spoken with him directly about this), how kind and loving and no matter how much they believe in God, if they do not believe in Jesus, that he is the 'only Son of God', who died for our sins and rose from the dead, they are damned to hell. This is a restricted world view. Yogananda's teaching on Jesus is not restrictive like this. There is no attempt to guilt someone into believing that Jesus is an enlightened being and no attempt to damn a person if they hold a different point of view. SRF DOES appear to be doing this, at least with regard to it's organization and Guru. Of course people need to make distinctions between things, but that is not what I am talking about. Many systems are coherent, but not all coherent systems are closed and fundamentalist. Since we are talking about an Organization, I DO think it is vitally important to take into consideration whether it is healthy or not. People may indeed need to find structure in a confusing world, but that does not mean that all structures are appropriate and are accomplishing their goals. At the risk of beating a dead horse to the consistency of glue, I know a German woman who still, even today, believes that Hitler was good for Germany because he brought order to the country during the chaos of the Post WWI era. It's valid to point out that Hitler was not a healthy manifestation of the German spirit, though he did provide some extremely coherent order to the country. This is in no way an attempt to compare SRF with Nazis, just a use of an extreme to make a point. Edited by: etzchaim at: 12/17/03 9:40 am
dawnrays Registered User (12/17/03 9:41 am) Reply	Compared to what? Are the teachings bad? Well, compared to what? My current "world view" is that I know alot of people on antidepressents, who have substance abuse (or former substance abuse problems) and are currently addicted to the AA, or have some other kind of obsessive/compulsive habit. There are alot of dangerously obese people (who also smoke!) in this town. Granted, this is not the kind of "world view" that makes the news, but it's day to day reality. Given the choice of hanging with srf people and the people I used to know in my Navy housing development in California, I would still choose srf, hands down. At least they weren't drunk by 5 or 6 o'clock every afternoon. I had neighborhood mothers who did drugs in front of their kids (when they bothered to watch them!) There was one mom down the road who turned tricks while her husband was deployed! At least the srf people were clean, did not drink or smoke and were reasonably polite and courtiouse (if not always that friendly or interpersonal). I did always manage to find a few straglers to hand with and most of them were pretty nice. I agree with etzchaim about the fundamentalist idea of attacking people for displaying human characteristics. It's happened to our very own guru on this board! Don't people realize that this kind of intolerant, fundamentalist behavior is much more damaging and ugly than any "sin" could every be? I am wondering which lessons some people have studied? Anyway, there are some groups of people that are nice. etzchaim and I are both in the sca (society for creative anachronism) which is just a fun group and not religeous in any way. It does take some effort though. I would say right now, the "world view" as in what's going on in my life personally, is pretty screwed up!
soulcircle Registered User (12/17/03 11:05 am) Reply	It's worked for many people I know Hi Guests and All, etzchaim says: *Quote:* It's worked for many people I know please define "worked," and additonally elaborate on "many," as it if a long way to proof that kriya works from your seven words above. thank you for staying with us on this, it is complex and I find myself learning and helped by your replies etzchaim. learning circle, Dave
ranger20 Registered User (12/17/03 11:07 am) Reply	Re: Are the teachings bad? *Quote:* Since we are talking about an Organization, I DO think it is vitally important to take into consideration whether it is healthy or not. I agree completely. But in using the word "worldview," I understand it to mean one's core understanding of "reality." Deeper than a philosophy or something I can easily change my mind about. For example, at a core level, I believe that any diseases are caused by germs/viruses. I'm aware of other views, involving spirits or intrusions, and I've even practiced elementary exercises in removing them, but at a fundamental level, that seems "poetic," and germs seem "real." This is actually not a harmful core belief, since it motivates me to do certain "good" things, like wash my hands a lot in flu season. But the point is, even if I were shown that belief in germs causes me to do certain "bad" things, I could not just change my mind by an act of will. Even so germs aren't a big deal. Nobody is going to go to war or go to jail or shun unbelievers over germs, the way they will over elements in a religious worldview. I think both your fundmentalist Lutheran and fasciast sympathizer acquaintences share a related reaction to uncertainty and chaos. And I think I embraced the SRF worldview and liked it, in part because of reaction to uncertainty and chaos. And as dawnrays points out, there are a lot of good aspects to it - it helps keep me sober, like germs help keep my hands clean. The problems for cultures and individuals, when worldviews start to crack (the Chinese curse, "May you live in interesting times.") For example, I always "sort of" believed in reincarnation, and after several decades in SRF, it is part of my worldview, like germs - I could not just change my mind one day, at least not easily. Part of the problem with SRF (and I have more to say about this), is the "extra" elements that are part of "the teachings." Like "disloyalty costs you incarnations," and "loyalty to the organization and loyalty to the guru are one and the same." These are "intrusions" or even "psychic germs" that got slipped into the reincarnation stew. They are harmful, they are fascist, they are one reason I and other walri are voting with our feet. But to push this stupid analogy to it's limits, even if I were convinced to give up hand washing, I'd probably feel lingering bits of discomfort for quite some time.
etzchaim Registered User (12/17/03 12:04 pm) Reply	Re: It's worked for many people I know First, Soulcircle, I'm not trying to "prove" that Kriya works. I'm relating to you my personal experience with it, and what I have noticed in others who I know from among my fellow disciples in Chicago. "Proof" is something that involves the scientific method, which I don't think is very applicable in this case. I'm aware that Kriya has been called a "science". I consider it more of an art. Yogananda and the lineage, were, in my opinion, trying to appeal to the mindset of the modern West. Proving that Kriya works is about as possible as proving that the Jungian archetypes exist. You want me to elaborate on "many"? I'm close with a number of my fellow disciples and I watched myself go through changes. "Many" would be my limited number of contacts. Not many, if you are looking for a nation-wide survey. Are you? There have been times when I breathed no Kriya at all, and when I returned to it, I was very aware of the increase it produced in my evolutionary growth, and several of my friends have reported similar experiences. There is one man who I know was breathing a huge amount of Kriya and it appeared to have no effect on him at all. He left about 10 years ago and no one has seen him since. "Working" would mean, of course, doing what it is meant to do, increasing the evolutionary growth of the person who breathes it. I can see clearly that it works for me - to the extent that I really have to limit the number I breathe, because I can only keep my life in balance through so many changes, though it gets much easier as my level of consciousness increases. I've quit 'reacting' to things and am very aware of being radically different, in a positive way, than I was when I was younger. That I have made drastic improvements in this life would be apparent to anyone who has known what I was like 20 years ago. I do not believe that this was the Kriya technique alone, though, as I don't believe that anyone can move toward enlightenment through technique alone. That the technique may be being pushed as a panacea MAY in fact be one of the factors causing people issues. Without other forms of self development - within the Yoga tradition, this would be the most basic levels of Yoga practice - the Yama's and Niyama's and regular self introspection, a technique can produce change, but may also simply exacerbate personality problems already in existence. It would still be "working" mind you, just working wrongly. I sure wouldn't blame the technique for this, and I wouldn't blame the people who were taught wrongly, either. None of this is "proof", of course, just my opinion.
ranger20 Registered User (12/17/03 12:25 pm) Reply	Re: Are the teachings bad? *Quote:* I don't know, Ranger20, there are views of reality that are open to other views, and views of reality that are not open, and often these closed systems use guilt and forms of manipulation to keep people in line. This actually makes a nice segue into some materials I found last night that bear on the loyalty/guilt issues in SRF. For quite some time I've had the thought that the organization was somehow more open and accepting when I first came, and that it's turn toward the dark side was relatively recent, like the Walrus is relatively recent. Looking for some stuff in the garage last night, I found a dusty old folder with a lot of early SRF material in it. Old letters from the president. I found the brochure for my first Convocation at the Biltmore. I'd saved everything, notes, tickets, etc (thus the "nostalgia" I mentioned on another post today). I found a receipt indicating that I'd bought every book and tape in sight. I had also picked up a bunch of "Center Department Bulletins." I had never read these bulletins, because they seemed a lot less interesting than the books and tapes and I never got back to them. Dated between 1976 and 1979, these are updates and instructions aimed at officers and helpers at centers and meditation groups - assumed to be true believers I guess. I almost threw them all out, because at first glance they look really boring, but at the garbage can, I decided to bring them back in for a quick read. What I saw in those 3 years of bulletins was the most concentrated "fear factor" hammering on the loyalty issue of any written or spoken "teaching" I've come across. (they must have been having some trouble at the time - there is also a section about "other organizations claiming to teach kriya"). The SRF president was explicitly made (almost) co-equal to the guru, "the president, who is always in complete attunement with the guru." Loyalty to the organization was made an integral part of loyalty to the guru. The penalty for disloyalty to either was explicitly stated to be extra incarnations: "God will say, 'what's the matter with you'..." That charming quote was attributed to Yogananda. There was a section of advice on how to avoid the fate of "those unfortunate souls" who have strayed. It was actually pretty appalling, and at this point, even kind of funny. I realized that the author(s) had the same kind of "parent issues" I had. "What's the matter with you!" was a frequent parental question. It's not the question of any God I'm remotely interested in. It reminds me of the concept of the nasty "demiurge" of some of early Christian Gnosticism. I actually felt sorry for the people who composed this. I thought about giving exact quotes, (and though I could do so on request), the whole thing was just kind of depressing, and I didn't feel like rereading it. The overall effect for me was almost the opposite of what the authors intended, as in making me wonder again how I could have given so much loyalty to an organization that didn't deserve it. I am interested in picking up again, some of my recent review of some of the writings of Yogananda are likely to be original, and to look through more of the online East-West articles. It's pretty well established that there are no public writings or lecture transcripts in which PY said the president was always going to be Self-Realized, as the organization claims. What about the rest that was concentrated in these bulletins? I can't remember anything outside of lessons whose authorship can't be established. I feel a new interest in looking at some of the writings. Recent postings on the walrus have certainly raised the "where there's smoke..." issue. Does the punitive stance of the organization regarding "loyalty" reflect something of the founder? I know I'd prefer to think not, but I certainly have to check.
soulcircle Registered User (12/17/03 1:23 pm) Reply	Bless you etzchaim Hi Guests and All, I agree with you in the ways people can "prove" to themelves of kriya's helpfulness. I find it a mixed bag, and don't deny that it "works," at times. And yes the implication also is true for me, at times it doesn't work in the slightest. For me overall I find it is a wash. We hope some others will weigh in. etzchaim though you don't claim to be sweet in some other post, you are very responsive and helpful, I treasure you! Dave
dawnrays Registered User (12/17/03 1:48 pm) Reply	Re: Bless you etzchaim I agree with etzchaim in that you should stop your kriya practice when you feel overwhelmed or overcharged. The big mistake in my opinion with srf is trying to turn it into such a strict regime! I've had all kinds of problems with this ridiculous, military type concept of kriya. The really weird thing is that THEY KNOW THIS. On private counseling over the phone with nuns, they advised me to stop kriya for a while when I was have severe problems with insomnia. At least some of them know it come to think, because on another phone call a nun told me that my insomnia COULD NOT POSSIBLY be related to kriya (it should be relaxing me!) I guess everybody's a little confused. It's a huge responsibilty, having a powerful techinique like this. On visiting Ananda a few times, I noticed that they are much more hands on and "user friendly" with the kriya. They actually act as if they want to know what's going on and are INTERESTED. But despite all the problems, it certainly beats sucking cocaine up my nose which is what I was doing directly before. Actually, surfer posted a really good explanation of kriya benefits (which has since been deleted as that particular thread was a little alarming, even for walrus). One of the benefits was purifying the body for higher awareness by ridding it of addictions. This is exactly what it did for me. I was ready to put myself under hypnosis to do this very same thing (for tobacco and cocaine). I am surprised that people on this board critisize Yogananda for being a hypnotist. He was obviously aware of the pitfalls as he states very implicitly in the lessons NEVER to put yourself under as it weakens the mind. So I didn't and I was eventually rid of my addictions. I don't do kriya very often anymore (when I feel like it and have time). It took many years but (not to brag) but I almost immediately go into the blissful state as of my first few kriyas and have never felt the need to increase beyond 36 (usually 24 is plenty). I also don't do long meditations.
soulcircle Registered User (12/17/03 2:28 pm) Reply	on the light side....... What's new Guests , etzchaim, dawnrays and All, Now there's several answered prayers in etzchaim and dawnrays' posts above. My gosh....that's proof enough for me. You both are 100 proof. LOL. ~~~~~~~~~~~ For some, kriya is clearly beneficial, works! ~~~~~~~~~~~ Thank you both, any others want to weigh in, does kriya work for you? or not? You two have made my day. dawnrays I love the story about the nuns and everybody is " a little confused." Keep your sharing coming our way via the walrus board, it means more to us than you'll ever realize! : ) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I am impressed too, that in view of the two of you making my day, not just today, but other days in the past too..... In view of dawnrays and etzchaim's good vibrations, to me, it is apparent that the Society for Creative Anarchronism works too!! Dancing in my chair, sign me up. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Ranger I am not purposely ignoring you, I am going back to read your posts too. Thank you as well. "a little confused" circle .... wink
soulcircle Registered User (12/17/03 2:38 pm) Reply	from JoshHiram's thread in SRF [PY's] Teachings and Ideals Members and All, chrisparis has entered his experience and success with kriya in a new thread started December 17, 2003 in SRF [PY's} Teachings and Ideals: chrisparis, please allow us to enjoy your post in this thread also, chrisparis wrote: *Quote:* I'll chime in too. I think kriya is a very powerful and, potentially, positive tool for evolution. I agree that the SRF organization is essentially a petrified, crystalized body, and association with it can be damaging. But I have come to accept Yogananda as a very capable teacher, and the technique as an excellent technique. I don't practice it specifically as much as I used to, but learning it was a positive experience for me, and using it is also usually a positive experience for me. Hi again All, I am thinking of going to hear Paris at Slim's in San Francisco tonight, after a visit with Jason Becker.... www.guerillafunk.com laughing so hard I can't type.. ..at the website, half way down on opening page on left is a 60 second sample/advertisement, click "Attention DJ's/Please Play it often in the mix Dave in a cave and on the pave ..........................................[ment] did you ever take a spare hour and stand at a busy corner with a sign saying, "taking an hour to see what this feels like, all proceeds go to my fabulous kriya habit/evolution? Edited by: soulcircle at: 12/17/03 3:32 pm
Punk Yogi Registered User (12/17/03 4:26 pm) Reply	Punk Weighing In What Kriya does, in my opinion, is it amps up the nervous system and allows it to become more acute and perceptive to subtler waves of information. This acquired sensitized acuity does not automatically guarantee a certain set of behaviors. The idea is to internalize the bliss and allow it to wield lasting impressions on the nervous system. In SRF parlance, this means "holding on to the effects of meditation." Brother Turiyananda often reminded us of an infrequently mentioned piece of advice of Yogananda's to centralize all the feelings of bliss into the brain and hold that feeling there for an extended period of time. This , he said, multiplied the results. One could then do it at the heart center or any other part of the body. Most of what's being talked about involves two categories of Kriya practitioners: Bliss Bunnies and the Non-Resulters. The Bliss Bunnies are just that -- people who regard spiritual joy as some yummy carrot they can munch on whenever their little rabbit tummies feel hungry. But this is not creative; in fact, it inevitably leads to the fetishizing of the technique, turning it into some mystical totem with the power to do all the work those passive little rabbits ought to be doing for themselves. Inevitably, life catches up. Remember the old computer term GIGO (Garbage In, Garbage Out)? What we put into life, or don't put into it, is what we get out of it. I ask the following: What are we doing with that Bliss? How are we utilizing it? Or are we allowing life to happen to us? Are we latching on to the values of the SRF organization only to discover that our lives don't work out because the SRF value system has elements to it that are thoroughly contradictory to our authenticity? We are creative beings. The fundamental premise of what it means to be creative is that we have the freedom to make choices and witness the results of those choices. Kriya, in my opinion, simply makes us a more sensitive radar dish. A sensitive radar dish can pick up good information or bad information. It still rests on the individual to act responsibly with what he or she's been given. This is where SRF has gone wrong. It encourages people to abandon their independent thinking for the sake of loyalty and devotion. What many ex-members are trying to do is experiment with keeping the best of both worlds -- amping up with Kriya without surrendering one's own authenticity. This often means a wholesale break from the organization and its fascistic reliance on style over substance. Each person has to handle it in their own way. Finally, there are those who experience no results and claim the technique actually ruins lives. This is naive. It's like saying, "Hey Joe! you've been practicing piano for years, why are you still just an amateur. Shouldn't you being booking recitals at Carnegie Hall? How come you aren't even half as good a player as Vladimir Ashkenazy?" Now, let's say a music academy comes along and advertises: "With our patented technique, we can have you playing piano at the same level as Ashkenzy in five years." So Joe puts his money down, and in five years all he gets a gig doing musicals for the school of the deaf because nobody else wants him. Now Joe's depressed because life didn't work according to his plans. Who's to blame? The academy for making false claims but also Joe for being gullible. The "frightening" truth is that we're all creative beings. What we get out of life is to a high degree dependent on what choices we make and how we implement those choices. Adding weight to this is the environment and unforeseeable events. But there it is. I think Kriya is still an excellent tool if used artfully. Edited by: Punk Yogi at: 12/17/03 10:08 pm
soulcircle Registered User (12/18/03 1:14 am) Reply	Just back from Paris' first onstage performance in 8 years Hi Guests and All, Are there sisters and brothers into freedom? For over two years this board which opens with Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. has been there for me *Quote:* "Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter." - Martin Luther King thank you, for "representin", srf walrus I will let you know soon when www.guerillafunk.com announces their upcoming "Freedom Tour," I may be traveling along. Freedom, freedom, freedom........frrrr eeeeedom circle sing it again wi'd me Freedom, freedom, freedom........frrrr eeeeedom circle Edited by: soulcircle at: 12/18/03 1:16 am
soulcircle Registered User (12/18/03 2:18 am) Reply	thanks for your remarkable answer Punk Yogi hey thanks for the good juice dude! creative and all Edited by: soulcircle at: 12/18/03 2:18 am
etzchaim Registered User (12/18/03 5:59 am) Reply	Re: Punk Weighing In Thanks Punky. You made me think more about 'evolutionary growth'. Most of the mutations need to be cast aside and without any Intelligence in the universe, we'd be pretty mutated in an unfriendly sort of way. The combination of posts here made me start singin' a Gillian Welch song. It's a Bliss Bunny song. "You should have seen Me and my Morphine When we used to Go dancing in the war Spin me right off the floor My Morphine will be The death of me Morphine Morphine What made you so mean You never used to Do me like you do Where's that sweet gal I knew My Morphine will be The death of me"
nagchampa2 Registered User (12/18/03 7:47 am) Reply	kriya (This message was left blank) Edited by: nagchampa2 at: 12/23/03 8:05 am
dawnrays Registered User (12/18/03 8:52 am) Reply	Re: kriya Ok, here goes, Well nagchampa or chela2020 or whoever you are today. At the risk of getting myself into another deep hole and unwinnable argument, here goes. There is just so much you can expect from a spiritual path, a technique or another human being, guru, realized or not. It is not meant to solve all of your problems and may even make you aware of some you didn't realize existed. Ideally of course, everybody would have thier own personal, fully realized and morally perfect, unblemished, unhonorable at all times and completely infallible guru who was available to them at all times. This would be a being nobody dared to gossip about, who was a virgin who wouldn't even dream of self gratification! However, most of us for convenience sake settle for the lessons, a fallible or "unrealized" guru we don't see very often or maybe even one who lives in India whom we just correspond with occasionally. I am a Navy wife and I have moved 8 times in the last 15 years. I don't know that I could cope with a live guru and at least the lessons and the techniques were available to me on my terms. That's reality. I didn't even know what a guru was, like most of us, when I read the AY and was so niave I thought anybody that meditated could also read minds. I was also a coke head and had never (believe it or not!) been approached by a live guru to be his/her chela! I don't think anybody is disputing that kriya can cause problems. I meditated for alot less than 50 years before I felt that sensation. That's exactly what we are talking about. I hate to say this, but sometimes a person just needs a little counseling from somebody who perhaps is not a guru. I have needed a little (sometimes alot) of help like this and it's no shame to admit you may have mental or emotional problems. It doesn't mean you aren't spiritual or that you aren't a good person. srf, despite what some people think, will even refer you to a good shrink sometimes and there are some spiritual ones out there if you look around.
etzchaim Registered User (12/18/03 8:58 am) Reply	Re: kriya "this person suggested if anyone has physical symptoms from doing kriya they should first see a doctor." There aren't many doctors who can deal with issues related to this, so I find that suggestion to be rather ridiculous. I once went to a doctor because I could feel my heart beating faster than it usually does. I was made fun of for practicing yoga and told that my heart beat was slower than normal and well within the range of normalacy. Unless you have a really unusual alternative doctor, you will not find that the classical trained westerner is going to be of any help. I would suggest accupunture or Chinese/Korean medicine or someone who practices Auyervedic medicine. Heat in the body is fairly normal for anyone practicing meditation. The Tibetans actually held contests in the mountains with this phenomenon. Someone would pour water over two monks, and this being the Himalyan mountains, they would freeze. The first monk to melt the water off of himself through phychic heat wins. Perhaps with television, the Tibetan monks will find more socially acceptable ways to entertain themselves! I have had heat phenomena for years. It hasn't caused me any, any, health problems, and actually helps my back at times. Usually it results from an accomplishment of some sort - I've worked out some karma, I get heat. My Kundalini wakes up, I get heat. My meditation goes well, I get heat. Several times I've heated up when I was in close proximity with a more realized person. Sometimes I heat up when I'm actively experiencing intense insight into issues - most often having to do with understanding myself or others intuitively. It's difficult to say whether the heat is caused by intuitive insight or whether the activity of the Kundalini is the cause of the intuitive insight. I'm fine with either. Right now, as I'm writing, my lower back is heating up. It means I'm more 'awake' and is actually balancing out the fact that it's about 25 degrees outside and my office isn't heated well. I've noticed that I'm more aware of my chakras and what is going on with them when the heat is there, and I'm aware that it burns up karma and helps to remove the blockages within the chakras so that when the Kundalini starts to move up, it doesn't veer off to the right or the left and cause trouble. The Kundalini itself causes the heat. I agree that is it vitally important for certain kinds of people to have a Guru or at least a helpful more realized person around them who can function in the Astral Plane to assist them and give them good advice, but here in the West, we need to learn much more about the process of enlightenment before we start going into panicking and becoming alarmist about phenomena that is perfectly normal in the world of mystical phenomena. Some of this is 'dangerous', but driving on the interstate without paying attention is also 'dangerous'. It is wisest to seek out as much information about any of this, and to find as many knowledgable friends as possible in order to ensure that we can get the information we need when we need it. Nothing is perfect, but knowledge is very helpful here. Pranayama can indeed be dangerous. Kriya is a rather non-dangerous form, if we pay attention to it's affect and cut down when necessary. This is not a race and not a contest.
nagchampa2 Registered User (12/18/03 10:18 am) Reply	Re: kriya (This message was left blank) Edited by: nagchampa2 at: 12/23/03 8:06 am
etzchaim Registered User (12/18/03 10:42 am) Reply	Re: kriya Nagchampa, I do agree with you about the issue of having a Guru or teacher of some sort. Most Guru's worth their salt actually help their disciples in the Astral Plane. The disciple does not have to be advanced for this to happen, and is more often than not completely unaware that there is Astral assistance going on. Sometimes the disciple will have dreams that indicate that something is going on or be aware of it intuitively, but not always. It's often this assistance that will protect the person from having the Kundalini go up Ida or Pingala or be pushed out of the center by a blockage. Honestly, I think you are way too judgmental about Yogananda. He actually did help his direct disciples in the Astral Plane. It's the accumulation of indirect disciples, a concept I don't agree with, who are running into problems. I'm right about in the middle between you and the orthodox SRF line with Yogananda. He wasn't by any means a complete fake. His personality caused him to be a bit too enthralled with his siddhis, and he had a few other issues, but that doesn't make him a fake, perhaps not to every ones taste (in particular to very right hand paths, such as where you are involved). It makes him a developing being, like the rest of us, and more in line with the Tantric schools than with the Vedantist schools that he associated with. I suspect that he felt the more left hand orientation he had when he was younger (meditating in graveyards, worshipping Kali, etc.) would not be to the taste of the 'rational' west, and his father and family were far more conservative than he. His personality was very playful and he seems to have been a bit too enthusiastic about certain things for his and his organizations own good. It really did get too big, even in his life time. I know from my lineage, which I really do feel has been clear and honest about him, that, while being human, he was indeed a valid Guru. Of course, he did indeed make mistakes, but I don't expect anyone to be perfect, and I suspect that if you turned over your Guru, you would also find an imperfect being, hopefully with imperfections more to your liking. I know my Guru is FAR too conservative for me (his politics are left of center, though and very perceptively peaceful, as far as I can tell), but that's exactly what I need, because I'm more adventuresome and oriented toward Tantra. It seems to me that Yogananda and Sri Yukteshwar had a similar pattern. Edited by: etzchaim at: 12/18/03 10:51 am

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