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username Registered User (12/26/02 8:52 pm) Reply	Are the teachings bad? If all the monks and nuns are depressed and the leaders of SRF are "bad ladies" doing mean things to people, and the head of Ananda is sexually violating women, and the great grandson of lahiri is sexually abusing women, and the leader of another group is expecting UFO's to land ----- WOULDN'T ALL THIS INDICATE THAT KRIYA YOGA IS not a very good or helpful practice. Wouldn't one conclude that kriya yoga IS the problem? It appears that they are alot of SRF people who are mentally unstable, married 4 times etc etc.
djali123 Registered User (12/26/02 9:58 pm) Reply	Re: Are the teachings bad? How do you know Shibendu is sexually abusing women? "WOULDN'T ALL THIS INDICATE THAT KRIYA YOGA IS not a very good or helpful practice. Wouldn't one conclude that kriya yoga IS the problem?" How would one conclude that? There's a myriad of other possible causes.
chela2020 Registered User (12/27/02 4:35 am) Reply	Re: Are the teachings bad? (This message was left blank) Edited by: chela2020 at: 7/1/03 4:58 pm
chrisparis Registered User (12/27/02 7:10 am) Reply	Re: Are the teachings bad? Notwithstanding some validity in what you write, Username raises a valid point, which I have raised as well, and which you don't address in your response. The taking and keeping of vows is not the issue in question. The issue in question is "given the behavior of those who are exponents of the kriya technique, would it be fair to question whether the technique itself is not useful, and, possibly, harmful?" This is a VERY pertinent question! There are a multitude of examples of people who (presumably) have practiced kriya intensively for years who are (apparently) none the better for it, simply in terms of decent human behavior. PY himself appears to have been shackled with a bad temper and a tendency to overeat, if not, as well, a proclivity for his female disciples who lived with him at Mt. Washington. Any reasonable person in possession of his/her critical faculties should be excused for questioning this behavior. The argument that "this was just the guru manifesting, but their was no real attachment to these behaviors" might be valid, but it equally well might just be the attempt of a deluded person to remain deluded. Taken together with the bad behavior of Donald Walters, Sai Baba, Swami Rama, Muktananda, Satchitananda, the BOD, and many reported instances of bigoted, intolerant and hypocritical behavior on the part of various SRF monastics, I have had to come to the conclusion that the assumption that the East has some corner on the market of spirituality and spiritual developement is utterly false. I have also had to conclude that either the kriya technique is not as useful as claimed, or that its chief exponents don't actually practice it. This latter also strikes me as entirely possible.
wholetruth Registered User (12/27/02 2:20 pm) Reply	Re: Are the teachings bad? I find it puzzling how individuals can practice the Kriya techniques and seemingly get results in meditational advancement (superconsciousness?) and yogic powers and yet not be following basic, fundamental moral precepts. I'd like to know how that works.
srflongago Registered User (12/27/02 3:50 pm) Reply	Re: Are the teachings bad? Wholetruth: The confusion you raise is a confusion of means with ends. The TECHNIQUES of Kriya Yoga are just that, techniques. But achieving deep powers of concentration and meditation is fully compatible with being a wholly unspiritual and unloving person. Many of the monsters of human history could concentrate and meditate, and did so for evil ends. Techniques are means. The ends are love and compassion and unity with the consiousness of mankind. In a truly great teacher these qualities shine through, they are unmistakable. In the presence of a great teacher, one can imbibe and emulate these qualities while remaining an independent truth seeker of independent mind, heart, and soul. You have and will encounter many teachers with little compassion and little love of mankind or the divine. Learning technique from those without love or compassion cannot lead to spirituality. There are great teachers of compassion and love in the history of all great religions and spiritual movements. Finding one for yourself now is not easy. Iif you find one, the spirituality and compassion will be evident in every act toward every being, words and ritual count for little.
member108 Registered User (12/27/02 11:38 pm) Reply	Re: Are the teachings bad? Look at Yogananda's autobiography. There are many examples of advanced disciples, if judged by their spiritual powers, who were still disappointing in a number of ways including stealing! It ain't over 'till its over with the spiritual path. I agree that the SRF techniques are just that, techniques. We still need to work on our character and learn how to behave.
wholetruth Registered User (12/28/02 6:49 pm) Reply	Re: Are the teachings bad? Okay, srflongago, but if higher states of consciousness come from raising your consciousness above the level of the senses, do these yogi-swamis who are caught having sex with their female disciples simply choose to forsake their great states of bliss for a little fun and games? I mean, they say nothing can compare with the bliss of God, but then they choose a few seconds of physical, orgasmic release? It doesn't add up. Also: Chrisparis, what does that mean about "just the guru manifesting?" I don't understand that concept. Edited by: wholetruth at: 12/28/02 6:54:40 pm
GregsBrother Registered User (12/28/02 7:40 pm) Reply	Re: Are the teachings bad? When I first encountered Yogananda's writings I felt like I was reading a confirmation of what I had hammered out as my own general belief system: That there must be something to this God business, but God can't be a jerk, condemning everyone to eternal torture just for being ignorant. There must be validity to all honest efforts to reach God/enlightenment. So for me the "general" teachings are/were good. It made me feel like a personal relationship with God OUTSIDE OF ANY CHURCH was not only possible, but OK with God too. However, I will also say that I got into a negative loop about wanting to do more, but not being able to keep up with practicing all the techniques. I agree with those here who say that SRF has over emphasized the monastic lifestyle. After all wasnt one of Yogananda's greastest messages that: YOU DONT HAVE TO BE A MONK TO SEEK GOD I think they need to revise the lessons to support the housholder path more. In some ways it has been an honest mistake. Many of the things Yogananda said were for Monks, not householders, but we forget that. My brother was into SRF heavily for 20 years. He gained much from it, and contributed a lot too. But I think he also felt like all his efforts weren't enough. He took his own life this year. I dont blame SRF, of course. But I do see how even a sincere devotee, who's daily practice is even more intense than the SRF monks (my brother's was) can feel like he is not doing enough. Yogananda's original message had the ability to liberate us from the bad guilt message of twisted Christianity. " We can seek God out in the open with no organizations and only the temple of our hearts is needed. And God accepts any sincere worship; even our thoughts can be worship." Sadly, it seems like SRF has emphasized the "hive" over the "honey" in their understandably human (not God inspired) effort to maintain membership. Just as Walters has done with that other organization. It seems no "organization" is immune from serving itself first. Are the teachings bad? They arent perfect. If you have guilt for not practicing the "teachings" enough, so that when you think of God you feel guilt instead of Joy............(what a tragedy!).......... Then you are taking the teachings THE WRONG WAY. Yoganada said so much about how God isnt confined to one teacher, or teaching, or ashram, or one lifestyle. SRF should highlight that part of Yogananda's message, I believe. Otherwise they are in danger of falling into the same trap that Christianity did: Motivating people through guilt. Edited by: GregsBrother at: 12/28/02 7:42:32 pm
srflongago Registered User (12/28/02 8:19 pm) Reply	Re: Are the teachings bad? Wholetruth: In my opinion, the key word is "Swamis", that is unmarried celibate priests with no life experience who seek to lead others. The very basis of the householder tradition of Yogi, including Yukteswar and Lahiri, is that you are unqualified to tell people how to run their lives if you have not lived a full life. It is no surprise that such a large proportion of Swamis have had intimate relations with female or male disciples. Students of all kinds, of Yoga or any other subject, are very vulnerable to the attentions of their teachers. Nowadays college professors for instance are forbidden to have dates with their undergraduates, or even the graduate students in their own departments. So I counsel having as a teacher only householder Yogis with a family, preferably those beyond the the usual age of uncontrolled sexual passion. I am very conservative.
GregsBrother Registered User (12/28/02 8:30 pm) Reply	Re: Are the teachings bad? Not that I know anything, but that sounds like some very wise council to me, Sri srflongago.
Lobo Registered User (12/28/02 10:18 pm) Reply	Re: Are the teachings bad? Greg's brother, I want to say that I am sorry you've lost your brother who you obviously loved very much. I admire your courage and ability to not put the blame for his action on SRF, although I wish he had been able to speak with someone in SRF, householder or monastic, who could have helped him in his time of dire need. Perhaps he did speak with someone, I don't know, but it is a very sad thing for you and your family. I can understand quite well what you're brother was tormented with, the belief that he just didn't measure up, that he could be doing more, maybe even suffering the inner conviction that no matter how much sadhana he did surely PY would demand more before God would recognize and love him. This is something that has haunted me as well during my time with SRF. But in truth it has been something that was hidden within me all along, hidden because I often sought various well-known pallatives to make it less perceptible to my conscious mind. And when I turned to meditation again, vowing to make a better effort to make that thought and feeling go away, it always ended in disappointment; just another confirmation that for some reason my karma, my own unlovingness was so bad that I'd never be free from that demon. Someone said that a monk told them that the teachings were for those who were mentally healthy. I've often reflected on this and can see that it is a good point. Meditation seems to lower the bar within our minds releasing all those unconscious contents that we've either consciously pushed down (by pallatives or other diversions), or remained completely blind too. But when we use these strong psycho-spiritual techniques it works whether we are strong mentally, with a healthy self-image, or whether we have a negative self-image. Then it can just increase that negativity for we just project our deep insecurities onto this new arena, whilst we continue pouring the fire of kriya onto the gasoline of mental confusion. At some point you either leave the path, stop meditating, and forget all about it, blaming the teachings etc. etc. Or you continue meditating attempting to overcome these inner inharmonies, maybe remembering Lahiri's statement, "everything in future will improve if one is making a spiritual effort now." For me I had to leave the path for many years. I spent those years in therapy with a wonderful person who too was on the spiritual path, dealing with traumatic life events from my young years that I'd attempted to forget and not work through. It was an intensive time for me full of pain and tears, but today I can see that this period of my life, not meditating, was spiritually vital and ultimately healing on a deep level, and that it allowed me to come back to the kriya path with a better understanding of my own limitations and thus more patience with my human condition. I'm just sorry that you beloved brother didn't find someone to help him too. May he be forever freed, and resting in deep peace.
GregsBrother Registered User (12/29/02 9:49 am) Reply	Re: Are the teachings bad? Thanks Lobo I agree that only "mentally healthy" people should be monks, but I think the teachings in general should be for all of us. I feel like Yogananda tried at almost every turn to emphasize that just because you aren't/can't/don't want to be a monk, that doesn't mean you cant have a fruitful relationship with God. I think he founded his organization, not for Monks, but for the rest of us. Yogananda's appeal was/is so broad because his message was for all of us. Not just the "mentally healthy" and the "monks". Thats what I believe. I think SRF would serve its members better by seperating the strict monastic teachings, from the original message that Yogananda brought to all of us. Its the old "you catch more devotees with honey", than by telling them they will have 7 ignorant incarnations of suffering if they decide to leave SRF. That sort of (almost) "all or nothing thinking" is eerily like Christianity's "reject Christ and burn in hell forever" teaching. Christ never said that, but those who came after did, as a way of motivating people to join and stay with the church. I hope SRF hasnt/will not fall into that same pattern of behavior.
redpurusha Registered User (12/30/02 1:23 pm) Reply	Re: Are the teachings bad? What leader is expecting UFO's to land? And if he is expecting them to land, whoever he is, how does this show kriya is harmful? In the past people were convinced the world was flat and that the earth was the center of the universe, experience and science has shown otherwise. Similarly, to think we are the only intelligent life form in the universe, filled with billions of stars, is as near-sighted. Your references to kriya practioners who have allegedly made mistakes of various types, only indicates how rare in this age is it possible to attain full liberation and be free of all desires of the flesh. I suppose its the influence of Time as Yukteswar says in the Holy Science. The theory could be broken just by one valid example -Lahiri Mahasaya. "One crow is black, two crows are black, therefore all crows are black. This is invalid because they found a white crow... similarly, one man is mortal, two men are mortal, therefore all men are mortal... well Christ resurrected himself." -PY Some of the posts here rightly mention the distinction between the original teachings and the SRF version teachings, this is an important note when presenting a question like this.
djali123 Registered User (12/30/02 9:59 pm) Reply	Re: Are the teachings bad? GregsBrother, I agree with most of what you say. Like you I was amazed when I read the AY, but I think I threw myself into the lessons without much reasoning and testing. For the first year I was downright fanatical about my beliefs and religious observances. I accepted all therein as absolute truth. I have become more open and reasonable since then, but still I fall back into frustration and anger over not doing the techniques. I think it's my responsibility to deal with it. Nonetheless I think SRF could tone down a bit the language in the lessons or write a cautionary statement in there or maybe have more Q&A's on this topic. PS: The best quotes from Yogananda on letting go of guilt thoughts of the past and future are in the Inner Peace book.
srflongago Registered User (1/3/03 6:40 pm) Reply	Re: Are the teachings bad? To Chela2020 From your postings, it appears that you accept all evidence that supports your position and reject all evidence that conflicts with it, and that you question the motives of those who do not agree with you, and accept the motives of those who do agree with you. This bears some thought. Edited by: srflongago at: 1/4/03 8:10:54 am
GregsBrother Registered User (1/3/03 11:21 pm) Reply	Re: Are the teachings bad? Who?
chela2020 Registered User (1/4/03 3:17 am) Reply	Re: Are the teachings bad? (This message was left blank) Edited by: chela2020 at: 7/1/03 5:01 pm
KS Registered User (1/4/03 6:54 am) Reply	Re: Are the teachings bad? One of SRF's biggest sins is that their actions over the last 50 years have put Yogananda in such a bad light. While they claim to be the one and only representative of his on earth this also drags along with it their poor behavior. Their business failures, treatment of people, and weird internal environment directly reflect on what people think of Yogananda. Why wouldn't it? They are dragging down the reputation of our guru! SRF wants us to assume that since (they say) Yogananda is running things that we poor simple beings just can't understand the higher motives and lessons involved in the (weird) things they do. Baloney. They don't represent Yogananda on earth. That is the simple lesson here. Yogananda did NOT act the way they act.
srflongago Registered User (1/4/03 8:46 am) Reply	Re: Are the teachings bad? Chela 2020 Thank you for your thoughtful response. I feel that you have just confirmed what I said. You have a certain view, and the evidence against it is rejected out of hand, while the evidence for it is unquestioned. As an example of your trusting faith in what is presented as evidence, if you look a little into Flynn, you might put less reliance on anything he says or anything that passes through his hands. Do remember that he is a very well paid advocate, one paid to make a case. Being a tribune of truth is not what lawyers get paid for, they get paid to make a case. You might wish to look up Flynn and Stillman's firm on Google to see how he has handled cases and what the law journals in California have said about him and his firm. I myself have some further personal knowledge of his presentation and tactics beyond reading. As for Yogananda's character, what counts is not his relations witrh women or his temper or his gluttony, or his efforts to build a world wide organization. What counts is his teachings and the Mission to the West entrusted to him. This does not involve controversy. Controversy leads nowhere. My original point was that being defensive or offensive and spending time evaluating evidence of his character faults is not going to get us anywhere. It is promulgating the Kriya tradition that counts. I think that whatever letters, documents memories there are should be collected as historical artifacts, understanding that no definitive conclusions will ever drawn from fragmentary material. I hope I have not offended you. Spending time on faults, in either defense or offense, simply distracts from both the Mission and pesonal self-realization. We need to get away from these Mayan distractions, not enmesh ourselves in them. I wish you a tranquil and productive New Year.
chela2020 Registered User (1/4/03 11:45 am) Reply	Re: Are the teachings bad? (This message was left blank) Edited by: chela2020 at: 7/1/03 5:03 pm

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