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chrisparis
Registered User
(11/7/03 1:56 pm)
Reply 		Re: Muddy Puddles
Not so fast, Onetaste! I still feel that we have the right to expect or want consistency from those who profess to be enlightened and who offer to teach us how to be enlightened.

Regarding the brain/mind dichotomy, I seem to recall Wayne Dyer making a comment along the following lines:

You can identify the exact spot in the brain where the nerve impulse first arises to raise or move your arm, but you will never be able to find the spot from which the *decision* to do so comes from.

And THAT, my friends, is the difference. We will never, ever, in this life find the place in the physical organism where our being comes from. We will only ever be able to reach a level of proof, a satisfaction with the evidence we have, that there IS a self, and that it doesn't come from the organism.

ugizralrite
Registered User
(11/7/03 3:18 pm)
Reply 		Re: Muddy Puddles etc..
Stream of Consciousness:

So I'm thinking that long before the siddhis break through from the other side and people start to manifest incomprehensible supernatural behavior, that one has already rubbed up against the Cosmic View enough to feel peace and comfort, but the world and its irrationality still impinge on happiness, and so one hungers for death so a new planet will be found where things are consistent and rational, but then you think if I can't be happy here then I better do more homework because as long as there is a place in the creation where I might be unhappy, then I will always fear this place in the back of my mind. And you wonder about spiritual giants who come back to earth and drop wishing wells on their toes and build temples that slide into the sea, and possibly get tangled up with worldly female admirers, and reincarnate again in more humble circumstances unseen and unrecognized. And you have to think that these guys these giants don't fear inconsistency and irrationality, because they see it as a "Cosmic Motion Picture Show", and then you conclude that Hiranyaloka is not the place you need to be, but right here right now is the place. And you are thankful there are others discussing this stuff because Hiranyaloka is a state of mind.

chela2020
Registered User
(11/8/03 1:50 pm)
Reply 		Re: Muddy Puddles
(This message was left blank)

Edited by: chela2020 at: 12/4/03 8:40 pm
needthestar
Registered User
(11/8/03 4:48 pm)
Reply 		Re: Muddy Puddles
Chela2020:

"But whenever I push him for facts, he runs away"

Really? I find that very interesting. I'll stop short of saying much more since I don't want to sound accusatory and be a finger pointer, but your statement is the missing piece of the puzzle I've been looking for. Thanks for sharing.

take care

chela2020
Registered User
(11/8/03 7:22 pm)
Reply 		Re: Muddy Puddles
(This message was left blank)

Edited by: chela2020 at: 12/4/03 8:40 pm
needthestar
Registered User
(11/9/03 7:53 am)
Reply 		Re: Muddy Puddles
Well said. That wasn't my intent, but I'd be glad to share my thoughts via Walrus inbox.

thanks for sharing

Edited by: needthestar at: 11/9/03 1:22 pm
xmonk
Registered User
(11/9/03 12:00 pm)
Reply 		Re: Muddy Puddles
Having proof of PY's antics is quite impossible at this late date. I read the stories in the New Los Angeles Times and found them quite interesting, as did others. There have been a lot of allegations and counter-allegations and no one has proof of what they are saying.

The one thing that sticks in my craw is that there was never an independent investigation. SRF sent a representative to India and he returned with the "results", namely, that there was no match in DNA. A classic example of the fox in charge of the hen house. That fact alone makes one wonder and,
YES...it DOES make a difference if it is true.

redpurusha
Registered User
(11/9/03 5:16 pm)
Reply 		Re: Muddy Puddles
For what it's worth, by Norman Paulsen's account: "P. Yogananda lived his earthly as a celibate monk. He never married nor did he ever break his vows of celibacy... It cannot be said that a life of continence is a prerequisite for the attainment of Christ Consciousness, but of all the practices it surely contributes the most, in all departments of living, toward that goal... This is hardly the life for the everyday human being to contemplate, and an impossible task for the multitudes... (p 217 Christ Consciousness.)

chrisparis
Registered User
(11/10/03 8:48 am)
Reply 		Re: Muddy Puddles
"...By now the damage is done, and you realize that you don't know your own spouse well enough to make any type of judgments about him or her, but you are left in doubt. And that is the way it was. You have a right to know who you married, and you realize you should have known this person better before getting married. Basically you are stuck with feelings you can't get rid of and just hope that what has been said is not true."

Well, and was this person many years in a mausoleum in Forest Lawn when you married him/her?

It is a distorted form of an unhelpful remnant of hindu culture to regard this guru-disciple connection in the way it is viewed by the SRF. What we can get from SRF is the Kriya technique, and (I suppose) the initiatic empowerment to successfully perform it. The printed lessons are an elaboration of teachings given to people on how to live their lives. They were written in a very different time for people living under different circumstances from most of us who have full time employment, and their usefulness to even those people in those times is open to debate.

We should start again to focus on the real kernel, which is (to paraphrase) technique, plus devotion (to God and to the Supreme reality) works like mathematics. It cannot fail.

I would add that the technique doesn't have to be Kriya yoga. There have been plenty of saints and enlightened people who have never done even one kriya proper, just as their are plenty of people who have done kriya yoga 'til they were blue in the spine who are no nearer to self realization today than they were when they started.

Edited by: chrisparis at: 11/12/03 12:24 pm
ugizralrite
Registered User
(11/10/03 12:52 pm)
Reply 		Other Sources of Instruction
Quoting chrisparis:

"I would add that the technique doesn't have to be Kriya yoga. There have been plenty of saints and enlightened people who have never done even one kriya proper, just as their are plenty of people who have done kriya yoga 'til they were blue in the spine who are no nearer to self realization today than they were when they started."

I ran across what looks like a well-designed spiritual program while surfing the web a couple of days ago. I bring it up as an example of an alternative. The url is www.themystic.org, and the author is a Ramakrishna Ananda aka Graham V. Ledgerwood. Since the Walrus-sanga seems to be made up of experienced critical thinkers, I was wondering how others viewed the educational approach of Ananda-Ledgerwood.

ranger20
Registered User
(11/10/03 3:41 pm)
Reply 		Re: Muddy Puddles
Quote:
It is an distorted form of an unhelpful remnant of hindu culture to regard this guru-disciple connection in the way it is viewed by the SRF.

I don't know if the guru-disciple view sanctioned by SRF is truly a remnant of actual Hindu culture, or of Hindu culture as imagined by an "old time" Catholic sensibility, ie, "no salvation outside of the One True Church." PY seems more casual about the technique, noting that he learned it from his father, and again from his Sanscrit tutor, and simply saying that the technique had special power with the blessing of his guru.
Quote:
The printed lessons are an elaboration of teachings given to people on how to live their lives. They were written in a very different time for people living under different circumstances from most of us who have full time employment, and their usefulness to even those people in those times is open to debate.

I think that SRF gets much of it's "stickiness" as a result of these lessons, regardless of their usefullness. The lessons as a whole, present something like a coherent, and sacred world view, locate the individual in the cosmos, and supply a map of where they are and where they ought to be going. I'm not suggesting that the lessons are "good" or produce "beneficial results." After all, the western middle ages featured a "coherent, sacred world view, located the individual in the cosmos, and supplied a map, etc." True, you had demons trying to get your soul for eternal hell fires, and if you were real lucky, you might live to a ripe old age of 35, toothless and bent with arthritis from a lifetime of hard labor in the fields, but, you had a sense of where you stood in the universe, and you had chance to "get out alive." I think that's what SRF in the wide spectrum of the teachings provide. The lure of finding a "mission from God," is pretty strong, compared with the rather complete befuddlement of trying to make sense of contemporary secular culture. It's so strong, in fact, that a lot of us on this board seem to have gone a decade or two thinking the faults were ours, before we thought to ask what was behind the curtain.

Quote:
We should start again to focus on the real kernel, which is (to paraphrase) technique, plus devotion (to God and to the Supreme reality) works like mathematics. It cannot fail.

I would add that the technique doesn't have to be Kriya yoga. There have been plenty of saints and enlightened people who have never done even one kriya proper, just as their are plenty of people who have done kriya yoga 'til they were blue in the spine who are nop nearer to relf realization today than they were when they started.

I very much agree with this.

soulcircle
Registered User
(11/11/03 9:06 pm)
Reply 		excellent chrisparis
And the whole "Divine Guru" thing is really a promotion aimed at keeping gurus in business.

you line above is excellent chrisparis, especially so in the context of your whole post

xmonk
Registered User
(11/12/03 8:27 am)
Reply 		Re: Muddy Puddles
Chrisparis, You are right on the money!

nagchampa2
Registered User
(12/1/03 7:52 am)
Reply 		Re: Agreed Soul Circle
(This message was left blank)

Edited by: nagchampa2 at: 12/23/03 7:44 am
chela2020
Registered User
(12/4/03 8:51 pm)
Reply 		soulcircle
You were right, I would delete my messages.

Edited by: chela2020 at: 12/4/03 8:59 pm
Paramadas
Registered User
(12/11/03 3:26 pm)
Reply 		Re: Are the teachings bad?
Wonder what made Chela2020 delete all his messages on the Walrus? maybe he's a monk now and SRF made him do it! Maybe he finally started taking his medicine. Maybe those pesky UFOs finally got him. Who knows (or cares) but it's freaky anyway.

YellowBeard420
Registered User
(12/14/03 8:14 pm)
Reply
Psychiatric Casualties
Username wrote (12/26/02): "If all the monks and nuns are depressed and the leaders of SRF are "bad ladies" doing mean things to people, and the head of Ananda is sexually violating women, and the great grandson of Lahiri is sexually abusing women, and the leader of another group is expecting UFO's to land ----- WOULDN'T ALL THIS INDICATE THAT KRIYA YOGA IS not a very good or helpful practice. Wouldn't one conclude that Kriya Yoga IS the problem? It appears that they are alot of SRF people who are mentally unstable, married 4 times etc etc."

I thoroughly agree that Kriya Yoga and all the practices of SRF are destructive (or at least potentially) along with the guru-disciple relationship (aka narcissist plot-submissive game relationship) which is described in detail in direct relation to Yogananda at oaks.nvg.org/ayon.html

To show how the Lessons can be destructive, I'm going to present a case study excerpted from Psychiatric Annals 20:4/April 1990 by By Margaret Thaler Singer, Ph. D. and Richard Ofshe, Ph. D. entitled "Thought Reform Programs and the Production of Psychiatric Casualties". I'm going to add short comments in brackets to show how the subjects brought up relate to SRF teachings.

-------------
Kirk illustrates the splitting or doubling of the self that occurs when one drops an ordinary world view and accepts the alternative world view trained through exposure to a thought reform program. Professionals who treated Kirk diagnosed his condition as relaxation-induced anxiety that evolved into panic attacks and atypical dissociative states.

He affiliated with a mantra meditation group [Hong Sau is a form of mantra along with breath control], initially attempting to "empty the mind" of all reflective thoughts for a few minutes each morning and evening. The mantra, supposedly a meaningless word, is the Sanskrit name of a Hindu deity.

Kirk has an advanced degree in a physical science from a prestigious university. A friend took him to a free lecture on how to reduce stress in one's life. Kirk was not stressed, but responded favorably to the lecturer's charts and graphs alleging scientific proof that meditation was accomplishing feats unknown to mankind [Think of Autobiography of a Yogi here.] -- except through the group leader's methods [Kriya Yoga]. Because of its seemingly scientific basis [Yogananda & SRF have always tried to link yoga and science], Kirk paid his fees and began meditation lessons. These lessons began with short periods of meditation, which soon lengthened and were combined with prolonged periods of chanting and hyperventilation. [You start out with short periods of Kriya and then lengthen this over time.]

After a few months he began to have bouts of chest pains, fainting spells, palpitations, and lassitude. When he complained at the meditation center of his symptoms, he was assured these were normal signs of "unstressing" and evidence that he was reaching a higher state of consciousness. [Yogananda's advice to devotees having problems was to simply meditate more.] Hence, Kirk discounted his distress, accepting it as the price he had to pay to reach the leader's promised goal. Had Kirk not been following the meditation practice with simultaneous involvement with the group, he probably would have abandoned the practice as soon as he started having these adverse reactions.

During one panic attack, he was taken to an emergency room where a physician attributed his condition to "stress and pressure." He stopped meditating for a few days, and the symptoms disappeared. However, the group instructed him to increase the time he chanted, hyperventilated, and meditated. Over the years his condition worsened. Panic attacks continued; he reported he felt "spaced out" and forgetful, and he began to let his career, social life, and intellectual development decline. Upon advice from the group leader, to help his deteriorating condition, he frequently spent 8 hours a day for an entire week, chanting, hyperventilating, and meditating. He spent several individual months on such a regime.

His distress increased. He was markedly dizzy and objects seemed swirl, float, and waver in the air. He felt nauseous, disoriented, distraught and confused. At work he began to lose confidence in his abilities and worried that he had slipped into insanity.

He soon found himself unable to focus on his surroundings: when he did, things appeared distorted, obscure, and foreign. He felt overwhelmed by anxiety, depression, nausea, and debilitation. He took a week off from work and sat crying in his apartment in an apparent state of depersonalization and derealization, accompanied by a multitude of odd sensations and mental contents. He visited several general practitioners who could not diagnose his symptoms.

One day while driving he lost his memory. He was unable to recall who he was or where he was going. He parked and went into a restaurant. When he left, it took him 2 hours to find his car because he had forgotten where he had parked.

Soon after this transient but alarming amnesic episode, he resigned from his job because he could no longer instruct workers as part of his technical job. When he had to speak he felt faint, lost track of what he was saying, and was unable to function.
--------------

SerenityNow7
Registered User
(12/14/03 9:16 pm)
Reply 		Re: Psychiatric Casualties
Hiya Yellowbeard. So I just came out of a wonderful meditation session tonight and am feeling quite marvelous. So I thought I'd write to defend meditation here.

Just because some people are affected badly by it does not mean meditation in itself is bad. Millions of people take blood pressure medicine, but some people react very negatively to certain side effects. Does that mean no one, anywhere, should ever take blood pressure medicine? This is the same argument I feel is being made here about meditation.

Yes there are people who have repressed material that meditation could unearth that could cause problems. And yes, there are people with latent mental problems that might be triggered. BUT that does not invalidate the value of these methods for all people. There is a great deal of real science (that hasn't been paid for by the TM organization) showing tangible benefits to meditation.

I will grant you that if someone is having problems potentially caused or potentiated by a meditative practice they should not be advised to just "meditate more". But let's not throw the baby out with the bath water!!!!

Also there are apples, oranges, and pears here to consider. One-point focus meditation, breathing techniques, and chanting are different things. Yes, they can be tied together but they aren't always. To judge all techniques by negative results on a few particular ones seems hasty to me.

YellowBeard420
Registered User
(12/15/03 5:17 am)
Reply
Re: Psychiatric Casualties
> Serenity writes: "There is a great deal of real science (that hasn't been paid for by the TM organization) showing tangible benefits to meditation."

-------------
The TM movement attempted to suppress this report in German courts, but its findings were upheld by the German high court ... Among the subjects studied:

- 76% of long-term meditators experience psychological disorders -- including 26% nervous breakdowns

- 63% experience serious physical complaints

- 70% recorded a worsening ability to concentrate

- Researchers found a startling drop in honesty among long-term meditators

76% (51) of cases investigated had psychological or psychiatric disorders which occurred during the T.M. phase and as a result of the practice of T.M. In some cases psychiatric disorders already present came to a state of total breakdown.

Before the T.M. phase, 6 people were in therapeutic care, during or after the T.M. phase the number of those who visited a doctor because of psychological or psychiatric disorder rose to 29. The percentage of people who underwent therapy as a result of such disorders therefore rose from 9% to 43%. This number does not take into account those meditators who refused to visit a psychiatrist or undergo therapeutic treatment because of T.M. ideology, or refrained, for the same reasons, from trying to resolve the disorders which were prevalent.

-- www.trancenet.org/research/ (for more info)
---------------

You say that there's a lot of real science that hasn't been paid for by the TM organization showing tangible benefits to meditation. This reminds me of one of the findings about long term meditators -- the startling drop in honesty mentioned above.

> Serenity writes: "So I just came out of a wonderful meditation session tonight and am feeling quite marvelous."

If SRF meditation has benefited you so much, why aren't you mopping floors with an ear to ear smile at one of the ashrams? You say that the monastics are meanies. I say why aren't they all blissed out from their meditation? They should be thoroughly happy from their meditations and from their Divine union with the guru. What's the problem? You say that you're a lay disciple and that what's going on in the ashrams isn't my problem. I say fair enough, but why are you hanging out here when the Lessons have improved your life so much? This board is for people who have been destroyed by SRF. I can only imagine that you're here because you've had some problems with the teachings, that they're not doing what they've been promised to do. You may even be suffering from mental and physical problems from them. Something must have attracted you to this board. You say that everything is fine, I'm just here to talk to other SRFers about the glories of the Lessons and the guru. I say this is a strange place to do that. There's SRF boards out there called "bliss bunny" forums; if you're all blissed out, why aren't you there?

Come on, let's be a little bit honest here. Certainly you must be having some kind of problems if you're here. It's like going to therapy and telling the therapist that you're just fine, that there's nothing to talk about. The first step to getting help is to admit that there's a problem. Then we can deal with it.

etzchaim
Registered User
(12/15/03 8:28 am)
Reply 		Re: Psychiatric Casualties
You know what YB, I've been meditating regularly for years and went through one period of being ungrounded. I reordered my spiritual practice to focus on everyday life, and became too grounded, so I currently combine the two approaches. You can probably find a negative scenario in every situation. Mostly meditation has been a great help to me, once I understood my needs well enough to use it properly.

We DO know that SRF manifests as a mild cult, and that in itself is enough to create the mental problems people have shown. TM also manifests as a cult. It's not surprising that there are major issues there. Since I'm not in a cult and still practicing Kriya, and I'm not showing those same signs, and many people I know who also meditate and are benifitting from it, I'm wondering why you still can't see that the issue is not in meditation, it's in the instruction and the lack of real support.

My Guru, and many other legitimate Gurus, actually TELL people to practice less when they are progressing too fast to process and explain the techniques, provide contemporary information about living (as opposed to instructions written for the 40's and 50's) and teach how to avoid the pitfalls. The problem is not in the act of meditation. It's in the cult-like control atmosphere that is not teaching people to think on their own and make sound judgments about what is good for them. The same thing happens when people rely on doctors who do not listen to their patients and insist that they know what is going on when really they are just guessing and relying on faulty methods of understanding human health.

Self understanding and an understanding of the techniques on a deeper level than "hey, this is a secret technique and it will enlighten me" and an understanding of how to personally apply the teachings are rather key here. I only see you being negative, and focusing on a group we already know are a cult (that would be TM).

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