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ugizralrite Registered User (11/25/03 2:07 pm) Reply	kriya mudras Quote: "You have been an adept in the past, this is why your karma has allowed you to perform the king of mudras. Go now, and keep up with your meditations. Wonderful experiences will come to you." ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- I wish that these "wonderful experiences", which I assume are in a category of inner visualizations, clairvoyance, astral travel, and miracle working, were as familiar as surfing the internet or channel surfing television. Because if they were I would no doubt be among the first to sign up. But to me they are as foreign as taking hallucinogenic drugs. From my point of view, knowing the future or seeing past lives, or miracle working are totally out of context of the everyday reality where I routinely function. Having based decades of measuring myself against miracle workers and astral visionaries depicted in SRF literature, I tend to reject these experiences as unhelpful to happiness and psychological adjustment. I would enthusiastically welcome a chance to be convinced otherwise by others on this forum. Edited by: ugizralrite at: 11/25/03 2:13 pm
bsjones Registered User (11/25/03 2:25 pm) Reply ezSupporter	Re: kriya mudras Yes I agree ugizralrite. Even having the goal of enlightenment or Self-realization has seemed to me to be a form of "spiritual materialism", perhaps even greedy. But, then again, maybe I lack spiritual ambition. Seriously, isn't it enough to be happy & healthy? I too would like to hear more from others about this.
needthestar Registered User (11/25/03 3:06 pm) Reply	Re: kriya mudras Etz - thanks for the explanation...I've seen cows milked and I won't be tugging on my tongue any time soon. Ugizralrite & BSJ. Please accept my apologies if I sounded like I was focusing on the "wonderful experiences". I think most quality teachers, including YP, stressed not to pay too much attention to the "firework displays" of meditation. If these things come then they come...I don't think one is closer to the goal with or without these "experiences". I just think that Norman was in his element at the time and plugged into something only HE could experience at that particular moment. I cannot fairly compare myself to Norman's experiences or anyone else's for that matter. Suppose I decided I wanted to be a professional basketball player...should I look at Michael Jordan's career and compare myself to that? That would be unfair, because I think it might be safe to say that someone of Jordan's ability has honed their talent and even their body type for incarnations...to be the best at what he is: the greatest basketball player of all time (for now). With that said, what am I left with? Does that diminish me? No. Neither of us is any closer to God than the other. How does it go? There are two types of people....those who know God and those who don't. I too have been caught up in the game...hoping for just a glimmer of the doorway. The trick I suppose is to put all of that garble out of our minds and meditate for the sake of meditating....but wonderful garble it is. I eat up such stories, but sometimes forget to realize that these people that came into contact with YP had to be somewhat advanced themselves...or so I would think. What's that saying...when you are ready a teacher will come...or something like that? Christ himself picked out tax collectors and fisherman as disciples, but they had to be much more than that right? Incarnations of meditating and walking with Holy men just sitting beneath the surface of the crust? That their souls were "ripe" as YP put it in regards to St. Lynn who made leaps in bounds in his new attempts at meditation. Does this show how thick maya is? That someone, although spending incarnations seeking God, can still be sucked into the earthly roles without so much as a thought about it being "displaced"...Like Paul on the road to Damascus when a blazing light more or less said "hey...you've forgotten Who you are." That's a tough pill to swallow. I'm just thinking (typing) out loud. Margaret Brown Dietz had all types of out of body experiences and astral travels from an early age until she met YP. If I recall correctly he literally told her to "cut it out". That her astral travels were a distraction of the GOAL..and could be dangerous. The rub for me is this: Beyond all the fanaticism of diet, meditation regime, and spiritual "fireworks", YP stresses the yearning for God. Devotion. How do I devote myself to a Father I don't remember? Maybe I'm like a child put in a crappy foster home and my Birth parents want me very badly to love them. How can I? I can't recall anything about them....I can't comprehend why they let me go...nor that they still love me or why they would let me fall into foster care, and on top of it I've adjusted and kind of like the crap hole I've been living in? How do I devote myself to them? I would gladly trade all the astral trips in the world for an answer to that one. Again - forgive me if I've sent the wrong message. Edited by: needthestar at: 11/25/03 4:18 pm
etzchaim Registered User (11/25/03 4:47 pm) Reply	Re: kriya mudras "Beyond all the fanaticism of diet, meditation regime, and spiritual "fireworks", YP stresses the yearning for God. Devotion. How do I devote myself to a Father I don't remember?" NeedtheStar, would it help if, instead of thinking of God as a 'Father', or a 'Mother', you thought about the excitement of discovering who you really are? Edited by: etzchaim at: 11/25/03 5:10 pm
needthestar Registered User (11/25/03 5:57 pm) Reply	Re: kriya mudras Actually that is very helpful. Sometimes things can be at the end of ones nose and never notice it right? Until someone says "hey...you've got something on the end of your nose" I'll arm myself with your insight. Thanks Etz.
ugizralrite Registered User (11/25/03 8:08 pm) Reply	Re: kriya mudras Hi Needthestar, I certainly didn't mean to jump on you personally. And you are very correct about Yogananda kind of having it both ways, ultimately very God-centered. The need for signs and wonders is expressed in the following: -------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Lotus Sutra Parable of the Burning House A rich man's house, which had fallen into a terrible state of repair and out of which there was only one very narrow gate, caught on fire with his children playing inside. With the entire house bursting into flames, the man was frightened and worried about the safety of the children. He called to them, urging them to leave the burning house, but they were too absorbed in their play to listen to his warnings or even to realize that the house was burning. He considered bringing them out by force on top of a table or something of that kind, but realized that that would not work. So he told the children that if they would come out quickly they would find the kind of toys they had always wanted-- sheep carts, deer carts and ox carts. If they came right away, he said, they could have any of them they wanted. So the children rushed outside, to the great joy of the father, and soon asked him for the promised carts. But this man of infinite wealth gave each of them a much larger and fancier carriage pulled by a great white ox. The children gladly rode in the magnificent carriage. Having received something they never could have expected, they were overjoyed. Then the Buddha interpreted this parable for Shariputra, explaining that the Buddha is much like the father in the parable, attempting to save his children from the fires of birth, old age, disease, death, grief, sorrow, suffering, etc., from which they cannot escape because they have many attachments. So he offers them the three vehicles as a way to get them through the gate, but rewards them in the end with the Great Vehicle. Just as the father cannot be accused of deceiving his children, the Buddha cannot be accused of deception. " -------------------------------------------------------------------------- I think this kind of parallels the Autobiography of a Yogi intent to entice us to something beyond our imagination. Edited by: ugizralrite at: 11/25/03 8:46 pm
SerenityNow7 Registered User (11/25/03 10:43 pm) Reply	Re: kriya mudras I just read this thread and considering I'm way back at just starting Hong-Sau the kechari mudra is not of immediate concern to me, but WOW. My tongue is definitely too short, lol...not going to be doing that one in this lifetime. I get enough benefit from meditation as it is so I'll try not to be too depressed I actually feel pretty lucky to have meditated with other techniques for a many years before coming to SRF, so I have some basis for comparison. As for the goal, I believe the practice is worth it and the goal (self-realization) is attainable...despite my poor tongue. Don't ask me why it's just making me laugh tonight. SN7
etzchaim Registered User (11/26/03 6:16 am) Reply	Re: kriya mudras Someone brought up the issue (somewhere) of whether SRF is repeating things to wider audiences what Yogananda told individuals on a personal basis. I think that explains some of this "wonders" and "fireworks" business. Paulsen is truly a unique individual and really thrives on his astral experiences. This, no doubt, serves a purpose for those who are drawn to him, despite the fact that he is criticised for this tendency of his, as well as for his interest in UFO's (Yogananda was also very interested in Aliens and UFO's, so go figure...). For some people, this is exactly what they need to put them on the path. For other people, the emphasis on all that glamour spirituality will be imbalancing and they may miss the point completely. We need to pay attention to who we are and listen to what our needs are and not think that we are somehow not 'right' because other people need something different. Edited by: etzchaim at: 11/26/03 7:36 am
needthestar Registered User (11/26/03 7:13 am) Reply	Re: kriya mudras Ugizralrite - so glad you shared that...I've never heard it. I love parables, especially ones so appropriate. Thanks very much for clearing the air. SN7 - I think you've got a very healthy perspective of things. SRF was my first time meditating...so I've got nothing to compare it to....I have heard that hong sau can be/is very effective in itself. For now, I'm with you. If I can't concentrate on hong sau like I should, then I'm not ready to practice Kriya with or without elongated tongue. Etz - You managed to say in one paragraph what I attempted in several...and better! Hammer on the head of the nail. You're right. And for me, personally, that was the magic/wisdom of Yoganada. From all I've read he was able to approach each student and give individual advice that each in particular needed. It went so far as when he blessed their food that he made sure the intended receiver got that particular plate since his blessings were directed specifically for their needs. (this is from Durga Ma book - a former Michigan res.) Sounds hokey, but I truly think he could read/scan people for their spiritual needs...some claim as they slept at night. YP was also willing to scold anyone who took on advice he had given to other students. Once Durga Ma received a sound tongue lashing for trying to do an amount of Kriyas YP had praised another for doing.....because she was doing it out of competition rather than for the purpose of the GOAL. Donald Walters even pointed out that YP could attune himself so much to others that he even took on subtle facial attributes of them...giving pictorial examples in his book. And to Norman, who was assisting him in walking, he said "I am in so many bodies right now I forget to take a step with this one now and then". True? I don't know. How marvelous if so....but they are only stories now. thanks for sharing everyone.
ranger20 Registered User (11/26/03 8:37 am) Reply	Re: kriya mudras needthestar writes: *Quote:* Christ himself picked out tax collectors and fisherman as disciples, but they had to be much more than that right? Incarnations of meditating and walking with Holy men just sitting beneath the surface of the crust? That their souls were "ripe" as YP put it in regards to St. Lynn who made leaps in bounds in his new attempts at meditation. I've come to question some of these assumptions, as imbued with SRF hierarchical/meritocracy thinking. I think Jesus had a genuine affinity for outcasts and the disposessed, and if his close followers were prior Holy Men in disguise, then I really appreciate Peter's marvelous performance as a "class A" doofus, which gives me a lot more personal hope than the implied SRF pecking order. And about that: in the editions of the Autobiography that were edited by PY and those which were published during Rajasi's lifetime, there were no mentions of James Lynn, and no pictures of him whatsoever. References to St. Lynn, and pictures like "a westerner in samadhi" were inserted by SRF after Faye became president, and were the beginnings of the trend toward emphasising the status of the president.
bsjones Registered User (11/26/03 9:47 am) Reply ezSupporter	Re: kriya mudras needthestar and others - this is all very helpful to me. I admit that I love the miracles in the AoY, and find them very inspiring. And I realize that I have a devotional nature in the sense that I often feel (painfully at times) a big empty space in myself that only God can fill when the "inner turmoil" is calmed.
needthestar Registered User (11/26/03 10:19 am) Reply	Re: kriya mudras Ranger - good points. When I read the first edition of AY I was surprised that St. Lynn was not mentioned...at all. I do know from letters to Durga Ma that YP was very protective of ST. Lynn because he didn't want anyone approaching him as a "moneybag" instead of seeing the spiritual qualities he held. As important as St.L's money was, YP still claimed that St.L's meditations helped SRF even more. Is it possible that YP was protecting SL from receiving hounding letters and phone calls for money? OR was he trying to save SL from his family finding out where some of his money was going? SL's wife did not like YP or SRF so it was a nudge/wink situation I believe. I guess that's a secret that rests with YP and SL Since then, however, SRF has had no problem drumming up the publicity....even though I think it's safe to say that SL would be pretty annoyed with it's current condition. Quote: "I've come to question some of these assumptions, as imbued with SRF hierarchical/meritocracy thinking." Maybe I am assuming too much Ranger. I guess I was thinking along these lines: That Jesus was fully aware he was surrounded by spiritually "dead" people....so I assumed that he would be able tell who was more "awake" than others. What makes them more "awake"? Lifetimes of meditation and seeking God Alone? Is it possible that such great teachers come to "waken" those around them whom they had spent previous incarnations together? Maybe it is a bit of a wild goose chase. If you plug in the well known YP comment about the body bulb not being able to handle too much spiritual electricity, then Christ would have to very careful not to blow the minds of those that could handle His greatness.....especially in such a dark, dark time as they lived. Does that make sense? Maybe not...forgive if I'm too presumptuous. I agree that Christ scooped toward the bottom of the barrel for followers - Mary Mag. being probably the lowest, just below the tax collector. Being a well known prostitute AND a woman..I think this showed how fearless Christ was. Saul/Paul was a Christian killer...maybe the lowest of them all...selected by the LIGHT. If you believe the story of Christ in India, then the same theme follows - a Christ like figure hanging with the lower caste. Not sure if Peter was a "class A" doofus or not, but it sure made a good laugh - thnx- Although it's not widely known, YP taught the American "untouchables" in Washington D.C. (I think it's greatly underestimated the racial climate that YP had to bridge when he came to the U.S.) We refer to them as "African Americans" now....I just noted that on a website and by reading old SRF mags. SRF doesn't promote that much...wonder why? again, these are thoughts from a very flawed man.
needthestar Registered User (11/26/03 10:34 am) Reply	Re: kriya mudras BSJ - I'm glad this helps. Speaking ONLY for myself; I've read and thought a bit too much about the miracles of YP, Jesus, St. Francis and others....way too much to the point that I've missed valuable meditation time. So these elements have been a great distraction for me in that sense. On the other hand, they do propell my thoughts to a higher GOAL...which is better than watching NASCAR I suppose. thnx for sharing.
OneTaste Registered User (11/26/03 11:03 am) Reply	Re: kriya mudras *Quote:* And I realize that I have a devotional nature in the sense that I often feel (painfully at times) a big empty space in myself that only God can fill when the "inner turmoil" is calmed. This song came flashing into my mind when I read your comment here, bsj. It is in no way germane to this thread, but once in a while you can get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right. Comes a Time Hunter/Garcia Comes a time when the blind man takes your hand says: don't you see? got to make it somehow on the dreams you still believe Don't give it up you've got an empty cup only love can fill only love can fill Been walking all morning Went walking all night I can't see much difference between the dark and the light And I feel the wind And I taste the rain Never in my mind to cause so much pain Comes a time when the blind man takes your hand says: don't you see? got to make it somehow on the dreams you still believe Don't give it up you've got an empty cup only love can fill only love can fill From day to day just letting it ride you get so far away from how it feels inside You can't let go cause you're afraid to fall till the day may come when you can't feel at all Comes a time when the blind man takes your hand says: don't you see? got to make it somehow on the things you still believe Don't give it up you've got an empty cup only love can fill only love can fill
ranger20 Registered User (11/26/03 11:21 am) Reply	Re: kriya mudras *Quote:* I agree that Christ scooped toward the bottom of the barrel for followers - Mary Mag. being probably the lowest, just below the tax collector. Being a well known prostitute AND a woman Like the prologue to Braveheart stated, the winners get to control the history. Some 20+ years ago even the Catholic church stated officially, that there is no textual evidence that Mary Magdalene was a prostitute. What is stated is that Jesus healed her by "casting out seven devils." She figured heavily heavily in the so called gnostic gospels. It is apparent in The Gospel of Mary, that she was well respected, and that Peter had a rivalry with her. Peter's faction won, these gospels were thrown out, and women were barred from the priesthood, a function that certain passages in Acts suggest they would have naturally evolved into: *Quote:* Peter said to Mary, "Sister, we know that the Saviour loved you more than the rest of women. Tell us the words of the Saviour which you remember - which you know (but) we do not, nor have we heard them." Mary answered and said, "What is hidden from you I will proclaim to you." ....................................... Peter answered and spoke concerning these same things. He questioned them about the Saviour: "Did He really speak with a woman without our knowledge (and) not openly? Are we to turn about and all listen to her? Did He prefer her to us?" Then Mary wept and said to Peter, "My brother Peter, what do you think? Do you think that I thought this up myself in my heart, or that I am lying about the Saviour? Levi answered and said to Peter, "Peter, you have always been hot - tempered. Now I see you contending against the woman like the adversaries. But if the Saviour made her worthy, who are you indeed to reject her? Surely the Saviour knows her very well. That is why He loved her more than us. www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/fr.../mary.html
needthestar Registered User (11/26/03 11:52 am) Reply	Re: kriya mudras Ranger...once more you've trumped an assumption of mine. I had always been taught she was a prostitute. How did that smear get started? At any rate - well done sir. I have again brought a sword to a gun fight. I'd love to hear more of your thoughts on what I posted earlier.....especially yout thoughts on St. Lynn. Thanks for the info...you are a treasure trove.
bsjones Registered User (11/26/03 11:54 am) Reply ezSupporter	Re: kriya mudras "Comes A Time". Is that by Jerry Garcia, OneTaste?
ranger20 Registered User (11/26/03 12:13 pm) Reply	Re: kriya mudras *Quote:* And I realize that I have a devotional nature in the sense that I often feel (painfully at times) a big empty space in myself that only God can fill when the "inner turmoil" is calmed. "This song came flashing into my mind when I read your comment here, bsj. It is in no way germane to this thread, but once in a while you can get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right." Thanks, I've always liked Comes A Time. In the same vein, I offer a song that has echoed through my awareness since I saw the movie in Feb. Points to the same place for me: Going Home Mary Fahl, from the soundtrack of Gods and Generals They say there's a place where dreams have all gone. They never said where but I think I know. It's miles through the night just over the dawn, on this road that will take me home. I know in my bones I've been here before, the ground feels the same, but the land's been torn. I've a long way to go, the stars tell me so, on this road that will take me home. chorus: Love waits for me round the bend, leads me endlessly on. Surely sorrow will find an end, all of my troubles will be gone. And I'll know what I've lost, and all that I've won, when the road finally takes me home. So when I pass by, don't lead me astray, don't try to stop me, don't stand in my way. I'm bound for the hills, where cool waters flow, on this road that will take me home.
OneTaste Registered User (11/26/03 1:04 pm) Reply	Re: kriya mudras *Quote:* "Comes A Time". Is that by Jerry Garcia, OneTaste? Music by Garcia, words by Robert Hunter.