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Should Free Registered User (2/12/02 11:51 pm) ezSupporter	The teachings aren't safe; they can be deadly Dear xxxxxxxxxxxxx. Thanks for your kind words. I would like to explain why I think the teachings are not safe, and why they can be DEADLY. 1) The instructions on meditation posture are dangerous. They are an invitation to obsess with STRAIGHT posture at the cost of creating harmful tensions in the body. Those instructions are damaging for the body, mind and most especially for our spiritual life. 2) The lack of emphasis and the impractical methods taught to relax the body previous to meditation , make the teachings imbalanced and unhealthy. Devotees accumulate dangerous tensions in their bodies that can lead to serious physical, mental and spiritual problems. 3) The teachings present the householder with a very distorted ideology in regard to their desires and goals. -- "desire is thy worst enemy." This monastic idea should have never been presented to the householder. As householders, we need to follow our passion in life -- vocationally, relationship wise, and in regard to our hobbies. The householder needs to develop his God given creativity IN THE LINE OF HIS/HER DESIRES. 4) The teachings promote harmful, obsolete ideas about nutrition. They promote a vegetarian diet without warning the devotee of its many dangers. There is very little or no information about the transition period -- which is a very delicate issue. Furthermore, the lessons do not communicate the obvious truth that many people should never attempt to become vegetarians (Dr. Lewis' Case). All these make the advise on nutrition VERY dangerous. 5) The teachings encourage the devotee to perform spiritual practices all day long -- from the moment he/she wakes up to the very last minute they fall asleep. Such extreme can easily lead to mental disturbances. That is for the monastic, never should have been presented as a goal for the householder -- it is spiritual irresponsibility. 6) The teachings are presented in a dangerous bossy style that promotes mental imbalances by introjecting a myriad of "Shoulds." Such language is conducive to depression, low self-esteem and anxiety disorders. It also leads to a dangerous disconnection from our feelings -- desires and sensations, which are replaced by a bunch of intellectual shoulds. Disconnection from feelings, infantalization and suppression of creativity are very dangerous results of all that shoulding. 7) The teachings promote a neurotic obedience towards authority conducive to "the good devotee syndrome." Such syndrome goes along with a deep disempowerment. Such disempowerment creates harmful personality insufficiencies. The teachings promote dangerous ideas about marriage life that have hurt and destroyed many marriages. The Lesson's extreme emphasis on "saving the precious sexual fluids" make the devotee easy pray of the monastic celibacy ideology. 9) The techniques that SHOULD be practiced as part of "THE MINIMUM" or as part of the" SRF’s RECIPE" are in excess. This never allow the devotee to focus in one technique. This violate the principle of concentration. The recipe: "Initial prayer, Hong Sau, Om, Kriya, Stillness, Devotion, Prayer, plus the Mahamudras and the Energization exercises" twice a day! is a grotesque excess for a householder. Perhaps the monastic believes that we all have several million dollars in a bank account and that we live on the interests! Such extreme is dangerous for the devotee's mental equilibrium (not to mention to their wallet and professional ambitions). 10) The SRF meditation technology is loaded with rigidity at all levels -- such rigidity is also dangerous. It does not allow space for the devotee to listen to his/ her personal feelings or to express creativity in their sadhana. In order to succeed spiritually those supressed feelings and creativity are crucial If you thought this cult is mild and not dangerous think again. This is a deadly cult and I’m sure many people have become sick and even died as a consequence of trying to apply these teachings. The teachings are not only unsafe -- they can be deadly. Edited by: srfwalrus at: 4/16/02 8:34:11 pm
username Registered User (2/13/02 8:47 am)	Re: The teachings aren't safe; they can be deadly I think the major fault with SRF is that it doesn't allow people to determine what yoga is right for them. Perhaps, they are more the hatha yoga type, or of an intellectual type (jnana), or a devotional type (bhakti) I suppose that they think that everyone already examined all the yoga types and then decided on SRF because they thought that was the best type for them. But that wasn't the way that I ended up in SRF. But since, as soon as you come to SRF, they tell you not to go to other teachers, or read other literature, how is one to know if you are supposed to be doing Kriya yoga exclusively.
premdas Registered User (2/13/02 9:54 am)	Personal Instruction & Grace of attunement SF… Beg to differ, if only re: tone of teaching and how they're presented. I try to perform as many of the techniques as possible, try to remember to practice the presence throughout the day, as well as serve Master's mission of sharing the core purpose of Yoga/Union. For many years I imposed a critical judgement on myself because I wasn't accomplishing all that I thought I had to do, as if it were to please God or guru or peers/leaders expectations. And while I wasn't depressed or angry at myself or others, I felt "less-than" I now realize I am! I don't blame the lessons or the guru or even those administering them and his heritage. It was me and my proclivity to be critical of myself and others! I could say it came from my family; I had a remarkably brilliant father very analytical and stoic and a mother who had a deep inferiority complex. But, the answer to my growth was OPENING MY HEART ! And most importantly to your points, the practice of the techniques as PERSONALLY and FIRST-HANDIDLY INSTRUCTED, vs the way most SRF communications and teaching is given through print and mail also was crucial for my understanding and realization. I think this is where SRF is missing the chance to really help hopeful seekers. Where are their teachers? Where are their classes? Simple Hong-Sau instruction once a year at Convocation doesn't accomplish much. Would St, Francis have been as inspirational and gotten his mission out if he didn't share personally with others or had them go to all corners of the world and live among them? What of Paul/Saul? What of any great teaching? One or two day few hour classes in major cities as reported in SRF mag.s doesn't begin to teach, it only hooks and leaves students to the printed lessons. Again, where are the living examples, and how long are they working w/their students? For householder, this is the importance of community and satsang. And this is what is lacking in the nature of the lessons. I believe the written lessons were meant to encourage seekers to continue their pursuit in attuning themselves to their guru; BUT THIS WAS ONLY THE INTRODUCTORY PHASE. The real depth comes with seeking those individuals out who live it and can personally explain and share the deeper meanings through their lives' example. Also there is the element of the grace that is hard to explain. SELF-realization. The path is different for each of us, but I beleive with the right teachers personally involved w/students and with the heart open and devotionally attuned to spirit AND with intellectual discrimination, we can get the most from Master's messages. I see your points. I'm not discounting your concerns, just sharing mine. The difference as I see it is in the way the lessons are given. They lack the PERSONAL TOUCH of a living teacher, to help interpret them and keep them current. Most people need this type of guidance. I did and do. Hope you have true satsang available, even if only on this Board! In Joy, Premdas
Should Free Registered User (2/13/02 11:02 pm) ezSupporter	Crimes against humanity Dear Premdas You say <<<One or two day few hour classes in major cities as reported in SRF mag.s doesn't begin to teach, it only hooks and leaves students to the printed lessons. Again, where are the living examples, and how long are they working w/their students? For householder, this is the importance of community and satsang. And this is what is lacking in the nature of the lessons. >>> 1st) It is not that the SRF monks do not have enough contact with the devotees. They give many services and meditations in the temples every week and they are quite available for private interviews. They are very willing to help. And most of them are wonderful human beings. However, the problem is that they have to play the company man role or they risk getting in serious troubles. That is not compatible with being a good teacher. A good teacher puts first the benefit of his student -- the organization comes way after. The good teacher treats each student as a unique individual with very unique needs. To be a company man is not compatible with being a good teacher. 2nd) Most of the monks are also seriously damaged by the excesses in the teachings and by the hundreds of unreasonable rules of the monastery. If you are not happy it is difficult to guide others towards happiness. 3rd) But most important of course, a monk will make serious mistakes when he tells a householder how to live their life. They do not pay rent, do not have children, do not live the complexities of a marriage life, they have to treat authority as God himself, they do not have to follow their heart and desires in matters of vocation, projects or hobbies, and in regard to very crucial matters they think in black and white terms so they fail to understand the middle path of the householder. The differences between both lifestyles are so deep, that monks should not counsel householders. They are ignorant in regard to the householder path. You also say: <<<<I believe the written lessons were meant to encourage seekers to continue their pursuit in attuning themselves to their guru; BUT THIS WAS ONLY THE INTRODUCTORY PHASE.>>>> This is not so in SRF. The lessons have been always the ultimate authority. And here it lies the PROBLEM because those lessons are a shame on SRF. A few days ago, after reading the lesson #3, a brutal treatise on cult manipulation, I throwed the first step to the floor, kicked it and stepped on it . As long as the present lessons are the ultimate authority in the SRF teachings, SRF's leaders and most especially the editorial department, are liable for crimes against humanity. I very much hope that someone will have the courage to suit SRF for its crimes against innocent people. Perhaps only such extreme situation will wake up its leaders to the obvious reality that the way the teachings are presented in the lessons is criminal. Edited by: Should Free at: 2/14/02 12:04:14 am
premdas Registered User (2/14/02 9:19 pm)	Re: Crimes against humanity S.F., I agree with you in this way: People are always more important than things. Lessons, writings, institutions, dogmas, teachings, positions, history, posessions, money, reputations; these are meant to serve us and never the reverse. This is the current failure of SRF. They're playing their ego when you'd hope they'd know better. Hence many of our experiences w/ and from them. I respectfully disagree on the degree to which you claim the lessons abuse "us", although I sympathize with you in that they affect you so deeply. Maybe its time to move on? I say this w/love and for the sake of your peace. Blessings, Premdas
Should Free Registered User (2/14/02 11:49 pm) ezSupporter	Two Set of Lessons Thanks Premdas I know you mean well. However, my anger is not a problem for me. Since I began exorcising the monastic BS from my mind I have better health, more energy, more happiness, better concentration and more success. It is a very interesting healing process. I'm realizing that I was depressed all these years -- energetically. The joy of living, to be creative and having fun were gone, but I didn't know it! The monastic renunciation BS was keeping my system depressed. Expressing my anger makes the energy move and at the same time it may help someone to listen to my truth -- the teachings are VERY, VERY, VERY, VERY dangerous. Essentially, these are teachings for monastics NOT for householders. Today I found another confirmation of my point of view. Swami Rama was a great soul; intellectual, intelligent and very insightful too. He founded the Himalayan Institute. His best book is "Living with the Himalayan Masters." Page 183 Chapter on "Should I get Married? " At the end of the chapter he says: "There is much confusion created by renunciants who impose rigid discipline on their students (he is obviously referring to householder students). This often makes the student dishonest and hypocritical. Is such discipline necessary? Conflict within and without are the signs and symptoms which clearly indicate that one is not on the path of spirituality. " We have both in SRF -- people living full of inner conflicts and a lot of external conflicts too. In the same chapter Rama says: "There are two well-known paths: the path of renunciation and the path of action in the world ....... It is NOT important which path one follows . What is important is the honesty, sincerity, truthfulness and faithfulness which one has in either path.” Note that this are DIFFERENT PATHS. And they are VERY different paths, I tell you. Why is it then that the SRF set of lessons for householders is EXACTLY the same than that for the monastic? This is a huge contradiction. I know that one day this will change. The mistake is too big to be ignored forever. To make matters worse, the lessons were written by monastics. They know their stuff of course, so they passed their BS to the householder -- a path they do not understand. They are keeping the householder devotee depressed, unsuccessful, psychologically imbalanced, living hypocritical, unauthentic lives, with low self esteem, fearful, and spiritually sick. Unless SRF begins to think seriously about this HUGE issue and creates two DIFFERENT set of lessons -- one for the monastic and one for the householder -- this problem will continue. But we may be the ones lughing at the end. The next incarnation monastics responsible for this situation may be born householders, to live a depressed, uncreative and inauthentic life trying to be monastics in the world. Isn’t it part of their teachings that there is no free meal? If you hurt others you will pay the price? I hope it will not be so. May God forgive their souls for all the suffering they created in spiritual ignorance. It is the same story again and again “the blind leading the blind.” Edited by: Should Free at: 2/15/02 2:32:07 am
premdas Registered User (2/15/02 11:15 am)	Re: Two Set of Lessons S.F., Good points and well explained. Frankly, I don't use the Lessons anymore, although I respect and love them for "speaking" to me where I was years ago. Ocasionally, I enjoy going back for inspiration as I feel there was alot of synchronicity and Master's energy there for me when I was most in need. And I do agree they need updating & upgrading as long as they claim to represent Master's lifelong work and dedication to bringing Kriya and techniques to householders. In Master's Love, Premdas
Bliss Bunny NOT Unregistered User (2/15/02 12:58 pm)	The Blind Leading the Blind For Should Free: *Quote:* Swami Rama was a great soul; intellectual, intelligent and very insightful too. He founded the Himalayan Institute. His best book is "Living with the Himalayan Masters." Page 183 Chapter on "Should I get Married? " At the end of the chapter he says: "There is much confusion created by renunciants who impose rigid discipline on their students (he is obviously referring to householder students). This often makes the student dishonest and hypocritical. Is such discipline necessary? Conflict within and without are the signs and symptoms which clearly indicate that one is not on the path of spirituality. ....In the same chapter Rama says: "There are two well-known paths: the path of renunciation and the path of action in the world ....... It is NOT important which path one follows . What is important is the honesty, sincerity, truthfulness and faithfulness which one has in either path.” Woman wins $1.8M for lecherous swami THE PHILADELPHIA DAILY NEWS National, September 5, 1997 By Richard Phelps SCRANTON, Pa. -- Jurors decided the Himalayan Institute in Honesdale should pay $1.875 million in damages yesterday to a woman who was sexually assaulted 30 times by the center's aging spiritual leader. The jury, which began deliberating late Wednesday afternoon, returned their verdict yesterday, assessing $275,000 in compensatory damages and $1.6 million in punitive damages. The lawyer for the Himalayan Institute conceded that it was morally wrong for the Swami Rama to have sex with a 19-year-old student from North Carolina. But Irwin Schneider told the jury that the woman's relationship with the swami, who is now dead, was consensual. For that, Schneider said, the institute cannot be held responsible. Witnesses testified about the swami's sexual encounters with the plaintiff and other women who had gone to the institute near Honesdale in search of fuller, healthier lives and spiritual enrichment. In her lawsuit, the plaintiff said the swami sexually assaulted her 30 times while she was attending the institute in the spring and summer of 1993. At the time, according to testimony, she was a 19-year-old virgin recently out of high school. Although she told an institute official about the assaults and the institute was aware of similar complaints by other women, the center did nothing to stop it, the complaint said. Attorney John Humphrey said the institute presented itself publicly as a center for holistic living, but beneath this veneer lurked ``a very dark, dark secret, a cloud, a festering sore that was and is sexual abuse,'' he told jurors. Using his position as their spiritual guru to gain their trust, the swami convinced young women to submit to sexual demands, Humphrey said. The attorney described the sexual exploitation of his client as ``spiritual incest,'' and worse than rape because she and other devotees viewed the swami as ``a person approaching divinity.'' ``It is just an absolutely gross, gross abuse of that trust,'' he said. More than 10 women have accused the swami of sexual abuse since 1979, he said, all of whom were ignored by the institute. ========================================== "Nuff said?
username Registered User (2/15/02 1:33 pm)	Re: The Blind Leading the Blind Interesting I didn't know about these suits. The swami before 1979 was investigated by PA for abuse against children. It must be that they did not send him to jail, and later was able to do the abuse mentioned above. But Living with the Himilayan masters is a wonderful book and I really enjoyed it. I've heard discussions that Swami Rama really didn't live ever in the Himilayans and that he was never appointed to the "chief" type office/position that he claims in the book. But I still would recommend the book. I am on the institute's mailing list and they seem to be offering a lot of courses of tantra in the last 5 years or so. But not the sexual type of tantra,.
Musicman Unregistered User (2/15/02 1:41 pm)	Swami Fill-in-the-Blank Delicious, Bliss Bunny NOT. Our list of frauds continues to grow. The question increasingly becomes not How many swamis do this sort of thing? but rather How many don't? It would be much easier to count the latter than the former. This tragic outrage seems to have no limits. Sex is one thing, but doing it under the guise of being some sort of illumined being is quite another. SRF is fully implicated in these types of shenanigans, as has been well documented on this board. So, the next time some orange-clad holy man lays a guilt trip on you about wanting to "grovel in primal mud," remember these words of Thackery: "The wicked are wicked no doubt, and they go astray, and they fall, and they come by their deserts. But who can tell the mischief that the very virtuous do?"
Devotee Unregistered User (2/15/02 2:07 pm)	And the worst is still to come What is it about all these swamis (and later their disciples) and all this sexual abuse?!? What makes it so baffling for me is that many of them are truly great yogis with advanced spiritual realization and all. Swami Rama was a very accomplished yogi who even demonstrated the breathless state under scientific conditions to a group of scientists who were satisfied that he had indeed achieved such a state. That someone capable of controlling their minds and bodily processes yet still can't refrain from taking advantage of others sexually (and in many cases financially too) just doesn't make sense. Of course the worst is still to come, at least for us who love PY, when it is finally proven that he did in fact father a son (and had sex who knows how many other times besides that while being a swami). That he is a father is already obvious to anyone who has seen Bern Erskine or his photo, the resemblance leaves no doubt. Especially the area around the eyes, it's just like looking at Master's eyes in the Last Smile photo. That coupled with Nerode and Dhirananda having sex with everything in sight, Tara Mata getting pregnant, Kriyananda, Davis, and the countless other stories, it just makes one wonder. That these things happen in the world is no surprise, but when they happen in the ashrams of masters who are supposed to be self realized it's another matter. I don't think less of PY's spiritual attainment for what he did, I just wonder how these opposites can exist in someone who is purportedly beyond these dualities of the material world.
Musicman Unregistered User (2/15/02 6:58 pm)	Pious Fraud I think what we're gradually discovering about this whole business is that it isn't that hard to sound convincingly enlightened. If you are sufficiently steeped in the Upanishads, Vedas, and Patanjali, then you can say all the right things, and it's pretty seductive, especially if you add some real charisma (which PY had in superabundance). As for the "miraculous" control of one's body and nervous system, well there is some room for debate. In the case of Swami Rama, there is a very good book that goes into this in some detail, especially the tests done on him at the Menninger Foundation in Topeka, KS, decades ago. It's called Swami, and it's by Doug Boyd. I strongly recommend it. For instance, SR claimed that he could stop his heart at will, but in fact he simply put it into a very fast flutter--no mean accomplishment, I suppose, but not exactly what he was claiming, and not exactly miraculous. Some have speculated on this board that practicing pranayama makes one horny, in that it stimulates certain energies, kundalini, etc. So, the sexcapades of prominent yogis in fact validate their status as highly advanced souls (with an excess of liberated kundalini)! But what was Bill Clinton's excuse, then? He wasn't practicing yoga, and he was plenty horny. These seem to me rationalizations and excuses. What we're dealing with here is pious fraud, on a massive scale. It's time to call a spade a spade. These people are not great yogis, philosophers, or anything else. They are Hindu Jimmy Swaggerts. They came to the credulous West to make money, get famous, and lay as many white women as they could (maybe as retribution for centuries of European colonization). Years ago, Joseph Campbell, the famous comparative mythologist who was exceptionally knowledgeable about Eastern philosophy, said, "This guru business is bad business." At the time, I thought he was badly deluded. Now I see he knew exactly whereof he spoke.
Should Free Registered User (2/15/02 8:03 pm) ezSupporter	A big fire! I never heard of Swami Rama's "sexual Hx" Very interesting! Thanks Bliss bunny! Swami Rama's book "living with the Himalayan Masters was very beautiful, but may be was an excellent business only -- who knows. The important point here is: Do we want to keep following monastics and their crazy teachings of renunciation? Even they fail to practice their ideals! Will we keep reading those crazy monastic lessons as if they were the ultimate truth about life or will we make a big fire in front of Mother center and burn them all? SRF teachings are monastic tachings. Do you want to emulate people like Swami Rama? Unless SRF creates a set of lessons for householders the time will come that no one will take them seriously. Who wants to be a monastic living in the world? Well that is what those lessons are about! And I hope that the monastics will have the humility to consult (AND LISTEN) with psychotherapists and health practitioners to create that set of lessons for the householder -- otherwise it will be full of MONASTIC'S BS anyway. I propose here that we set a day to meet in front of Mother Center to make a big fire and burn our Lessons as a way to actively protest for the abuse we have been subjected. They taught us how to be monks in the world, while they do not even know how to be monastics in the ashram!
username Registered User (2/16/02 7:14 am)	Re: A big fire! I don't think I want to be following a set of lessons for living written by SRF monastics.
Bliss Bunny NOT Unregistered User (2/16/02 2:52 pm)	And I Say Again... THE BLIND LEADING THE BLIND. Username writes: *Quote:* "But Living with the Himilayan masters is a wonderful book and I really enjoyed it. I've heard discussions that Swami Rama really didn't live ever in the Himilayans and that he was never appointed to the "chief" type office/position that he claims in the book. But I still would recommend the book." I would point out that you're recommending a "spiritual" book that you KNOW was written by a serial sex abuser, liar, and, according to the information you yourself supplied, fraud, not to mention apparently a child molester (a new one on me). What is the basis for your recommendation?
username Registered User (2/16/02 5:18 pm)	Re: And I Say Again... the basis of my recommendation is that I enjoyed reading the book.
nimbus Unregistered User (2/17/02 5:51 pm)	The teachings were changed by Yogananda anyway Yogananda made major changes to Kriya Yoga; he did not teach what was originally taught by Lahiri Mahasay. There is a book available at www.yoganiketan.net by Dasgupta, a disciple of Sriyukteswar, which describes how Yogananda altered Kriya Yoga.

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