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chela2020
Registered User
(1/7/03 1:29 pm)
Reply 		Re: Are the teachings bad?
(This message was left blank)

Edited by: chela2020 at: 7/1/03 5:11 pm
chela2020
Registered User
(1/7/03 1:33 pm)
Reply 		Re: Are the teachings bad?
(This message was left blank)

Edited by: chela2020 at: 7/1/03 5:12 pm
Lobo
Registered User
(1/7/03 7:37 pm)
Reply 		Re: are they willing for you to share their emails
Chela 2020,

I just want to tell you that I too traveled over the same roads that you've written about so very well and eloquently. When the Ben Erksine article appeared with the pictures I was in a very bad state of doubt regarding SRF and PY. I was reeling from the first article about SRF which detailed so much of what SRF and Daya Mata had been doing in secret for so long, and it was a great blow and made me angry that she would allow SRF to do these things etc. etc.

So the Erksine article hit me when I was low. It seemed at the time that the "hits just keep on a'coming" and what else was there that SRF was hiding from the members.

I wrote of my pain and confusion of yogananda.net and alt.yogananda. Others too wrote of the same confusion and pain and anger, some saying that after many years they were "out of here" meaning SRF. To that nojdw told them not to let the door hit them on the ass on their way out. That seemed to be SRF's response as well.

But after finding this site and finding others also in the same place, people who I found were intelligent, kind, and looking for the same answers, it was most welcome to my aching heart and soul.

Now 2 years later I am in the same place as you. I do not believe the sexual allegations against my guru. I too find that there are indeed others who seem to make it their occupation to bring down the great. As you point out all through history it has been the same.

I appreciate your writings on this and applaud you for your clarity, your directness, your ability to understand, your obvious research taking the initiative contacting the Erskine's, and your association with the Swami's at Vedanta Society who I also hold in high regard.

So I again want you to know that you have been a healing balm on this board to me. Don't be hard upon yourself for as Whole Truth states "this board is just a place to discuss these issues." Some people believe these stories, I can see why they do, having been there myself.

Other's like you and I don't. So that's what makes this an interesting board, where we can always find dedicated, intelligent people to interact with, helping us to clarify our own beliefs and why we hold them so dear.

Best to you!!

soulcircle
Registered User
(1/8/03 4:25 am)
Reply 		so we cast stones
guests of this board, all kin,

so we call a woman from the Erskine family for actions showing bad judgement, her "lies"

i want to apologize for all the stone casting i do
please know that there is no liar like me, i lie

please know that there is a way for us to love the Erskine family, even to the extent of finding honesty in their walk in life

_____________________________________

a lack of honesty in my feelings, thoughts and writings can darken peoples' days

______________________________________

i end this post with a question, the day will dawn when all, every single being among us will be in an unbroken circle of acceptance and shining love.........
do we have it in our hearts to enter together beyond our own love/hate feelings about our own integrity?
to enter beyond misunderstanding, to communities of compassion with measures of kindness especially for ourselves and those most distant, and our family and friends, to those "different" or at times troublesome?

whar measure of kindness can i offer to each of you?

circle

Edited by: soulcircle at: 1/8/03 4:29:02 am
chela2020
Registered User
(1/8/03 5:04 am)
Reply 		Re: are they willing for you to share their emails
(This message was left blank)

Edited by: chela2020 at: 7/1/03 5:11 pm
wholetruth
Registered User
(1/8/03 8:12 am)
Reply 		Thanks
Chela2020:

Thank you very much for your sincere and thorough response. You have given me a lot to think about. I admit that it is SRF's untruthfulness over the years and the way they have treated many people that gives us doubts about Yogananda. This probably isn't fair.

chela2020
Registered User
(1/8/03 8:17 am)
Reply 		Re: Thanks
(This message was left blank)

Edited by: chela2020 at: 7/1/03 5:12 pm
srflongago
Registered User
(1/8/03 11:23 am)
Reply 		Re: Are the teachings bad?
Chela 2020:
At present you do not appear to have an open mind, questioning BOTH sides of what people say.

Your apparent interest right now is simply to discredit those who disagree with your current beliefs. This is understandable since you feel you have been attacked on this site (I hope not by me).

But this attitude is not a reasonable basis for discourse. No one wants to exchange opinions and information with one whose current objective is to put down anything contrary to his or her current beliefs. This includes me.

No priest in Vedanta of the present generation has any personal knowledge of Yogananda. When Yogananda decreed in the late 1930's that those in the Ramakrishna order had to leave his Indian school at Ranchi unless they joined his organization instead, there was afterwards a complete separation of Vedanta from Yogananda and his organization. They never were willing to say ANYTHING about him, even though the reaction to making Lynn a saint, then to American's taking over the organization was not very positive. Remember that the main Vedanta movement is traditional, bringing their Brahman priests from India

I suspect that the true meaning of your Vedanta teacher's comment is that it is not a good idea to dwell on faults, but rather to work on your own enlightenment. That is, you should act AS IF Yogananda were perfect, and go on.

Ask your teacher what factual knowledge he or she has about Yogananda and his personality. I will be pleased if new information is forthcoming. I doubt it.

Going from dependence on one person's set of beliefs to dependence on another person's set of beliefs is not usually an advance. It is not a sign of emotional or intellectual independence.

Be an independent truth seeker. Convince yourself that you should not take anyone's word at face value, mine or your Vedanta priest's. We are all human.


chela2020
Registered User
(1/8/03 3:20 pm)
Reply 		Re: Are the teachings bad?
(This message was left blank)

Edited by: chela2020 at: 7/1/03 5:13 pm
soulcircle
Registered User
(1/9/03 2:14 am)
Reply 		mythohistory
guests (quests, heehee) on this board,

naturally when i say i trust the erskine's, folks conclude i believe from them that a holy man fathered ben

i need to correct that 'cause, who knows

i mean in trusting the erskine's that i like people in general, and seeing them called liars, brings a response from me

____

a love response

____
and i don't easily dismiss those who are beyond this public image presented of paramahansa, and listen comfortable to all
____
the Erskines aren't on here defending themselves
so it is best said that i love them and have some common ground with them

as gardendiva says we know little about yogananda, many of us have been exposed to a huge image "mythohistory" about him, and not the things like his support of Mussulini, etc

also in this board there is a reference to a book about gurus
how there is an experience in the human condition of love, light, calm and unity, a satori experience
how people who have had this experience want it again or frequently
how some people who haven't had it, seek it
how millenia of theology have existed around the teaching and seeking of this experience
a story in the book portrays a fake guru with a very devoted disciple
with time the disciple walked on water
the fake guru, again claiming nirbikalpa samadhi or some such thing, walked out on the water and drowned.....

so i became open minded about whether all this "theology" that has grown forever about an intensely personal experience, which i too have had...... was suspect or not

so i looked back on the generation or two since the beatles and maharshi, etc and wondered
i wondered about a generation or two "buying" into millenia of history and the "theory" that people
in general to gain spiritual love, and awareness of love, light, calm and unity...

THAT a guru is necessary

i became open-minded against the grain of millenia and the first sentence in the autobiography of a yogi which introduces the guru-disciple relationship

"what's it all about Alphie" to quote a song from the 60's

know i wonder how many may be led to gurus, desperately seeking susan [laughing] when we are fish in water, seeking water
how sacred is the guru disciple relationship
the experience has been marketed by those who climb on pedestals, by huksters, be amma, by one and all

on the deepest level, there was more in the book
and what gardens i was led to by free feelings

in placing all value on moral living and high thinking, other behaviors become hidden, and wow the ball of wax that sets in motion

and then as clear as a bell i watched and watched and watched
at convocation '02 i watched and watched and watched
what myself and other do when
in feeling so in awe, in loving the guru
in seeing guru as sacred

myself and others, so much love having gone out to this guru, this other, we are pretty much left with self-loathing
in any case a lot of love had gone out of some of us

and in striving to be "better" we were constantly staring at our shortcomings

so that love now resides in me....STAYS... and revolves in me for my faults and shortcomings not just my beauty

and the traditions and sacred guru disciple relationship and "mythohistory" that fills many postings on this board are comic books of humor, drama, and wild careening of human energy
and the next hand offered in help and comfort, and the next heart listening to an elderly person, to a child, to a homeless family is a smile that goes around the world, that i surf on as life, the wave that we all have in common within this sea of humanity

circle

Edited by: soulcircle at: 1/9/03 8:08:30 am
chela2020
Registered User
(1/9/03 3:47 am)
Reply 		Re: mythohistory
(This message was left blank)

Edited by: chela2020 at: 7/1/03 5:14 pm
soulcircle
Registered User
(1/9/03 8:12 am)
Reply 		lack of understanding
i fail to see the lack of understanding referred to in the last post
wonder if i should ask the author of the last post for proof

soulcircle
Registered User
(1/11/03 4:27 am)
Reply 		lack of understanding
Chela2020 wrote

Quote:
and others who have been hurt by the gossip or of their lack of understanding of what they have read of Yogananda's writings

chela2020
Registered User
(1/11/03 7:58 am)
Reply 		Re: lack of understanding
(This message was left blank)

Edited by: chela2020 at: 7/1/03 5:14 pm
chuckle chela
Registered User
(1/12/03 2:36 pm)
Reply 		Questions for GregsBrother
GregsBrother, like Lobo, I am very saddened to hear about what happened to your brother; I can only begin to imagine how painful that must have been for you, your family, and Greg’s friends. I’m wondering if I might ask a question or two about this. Please understand I don’t wish to pry, only to understand, and I will certainly understand your wish not to discuss this.

You wrote:

"I dont blame SRF, of course. But I do see how even a sincere devotee, who's daily practice is even more intense than the SRF monks (my brother's was) can feel like he is not doing enough."


GB, I’m wondering if you would be able to elaborate a bit about this. What specific things, commandments in the teachings or from monastics, or aspects about being an SRF member do you think contributed to Greg’s feelings of unworthiness? Do you think the teachings and the SRF culture developed those feelings of inadequacy, or might they have contributed to feelings of inadequacy that Greg might have brought with him from earlier years, before he got into SRF? Goodness knows, most of us have had such feelings at times in our lives. Then we encounter the AY with its message of divine and unconditional love, and we sign up. Later, we run into all the injunctions—you should do this, you should do that. It’s not surprising that members might feel inadequate. Did anyone—monastic or lay member—notice that Greg was suffering in this way and try to help him out? Did Greg seek out help from friends or monastics?

I certainly appreciate any answers you might wish to give. The reasons I ask these questions is that over my 25+ years in SRF, I’ve seen a number of members express feelings of inadequacy and unworthiness, despite being on the path for several years, in some cases. At the same time, I’ve seen ministers and other monastics make efforts to tell members to relax, to take it easy, to remind them that God and Yogananda love them unconditionally. I’ve noticed that they seem to have made more efforts to do this in recent years.

At the same time, though, the teachings (particularly the Lessons) are full of exhortations to meditate long and deeply, to focus the efforts continuously, to keep working, working, working at it all. There are, especially in the Lessons, hardly any recommendations to just relax and cut loose from time to time (and those that do exist are pretty feeble, like telling us to enjoy a flower or a sunset. It’s pretty sad when you’re told the world is an awful place, full of temptations, and that meditation is the answer and should be practiced more and more and more). I agree wholeheartedly with you and others who have repeatedly said that the Lessons need a complete overhaul.

It seems to me that the tough message from the teachings may well be a problem, and the “relax, take it easy, don’t be hard on yourself” message from the ministers just isn’t getting through. I just keep hearing members say they don’t feel worthy, they don’t feel loved, and they feel like shmucks. There’s no question the spiritual path isn’t easy, and I’m not suggesting we should turn it into some woo woo feel-good camp, but perhaps we have to pay attention to the messages we’re sending out via the teachings (both written and oral) and see if they’re causing problems.

One thing I think would be helpful—in conjunction with a lot of other changes—is the establishment of opportunities, both formal and informal, for members to talk more about what going on in their lives: to talk with each other and with monastics (who need to do a whole lot more listening, anyway). Over the years, I’ve seen so many leave SRF because, they said, we weren’t friendly, our social activities were phony, and people only seemed to care about themselves. Maybe we need to at least listen to what some of these people have to say.

Sadly, I see nothing on the horizon indicating that any changes which might deal with these issues might be forthcoming. They’re not even being talked about in any significant fashion, as far as I’m aware.

Having said all this, I do realize that, regardless of whatever efforts leaders and teachers may make, some people are going to be depressed, are going to feel unworthy, are going to stop putting the teachings into practice. My point is simply that if there are things we can do to minimize these things from happening, then let’s do them.

Anyway, Greg’s Bro, I’d love to hear your thoughts (or anyone else’s) on this. If you’re reading this, Lobo, I noticed how you mentioned you lessened and finally stopped your meditative/spiritual efforts because you felt guilty for not making enough effort or improving enough. Are there aspects of the SRF culture that you think contributed to this? What would you change if you could? Or do you feel you just need to pick yourself up and either make a renewed, perhaps more concerted effort, or make a different type of effort altogether? That is, do you feel it’s more the case that it’s simply up to you to change your attitude and/or practice?

soulcircle
Registered User
(1/12/03 5:13 pm)
Reply 		chuckle chela...did you get my email
chuckle chela,

let's go farther with your discussion about opportunities for devotees to listen to each other

did you get my email

heypoet@aol.com
soulcircle

Lobo
Registered User
(1/12/03 8:52 pm)
Reply 		Re: Questions for GregsBrother
edited due to pedantic fatuousness by lobo

Edited by: Lobo at: 1/13/03 10:09:03 pm
GregsBrother
Registered User
(1/12/03 11:42 pm)
Reply 		Re: Questions for ME
Thanks for your nice thoughts.

I keep starting sentences and erasing them.

I cant say much more than I did about my brother. It would be a diservice to him to try to pretend that I know all about his experiences with the teachings. And a diservice to truth for me to try to imagine any logical reasons for his suicide.



I do recall that I emailed him a couple years ago after I heard about this Erskine, DJ Walters nonsense. Before that I knew only the basic SRF story. I emailed my brother and asked him about all this documented misconduct on the part of the so called "inheritors" of Yoganada's legacy. I will never forget his response, he simply said (paraphrasing):

"All I know is that in my experience the teachings of India really work."

Notice how he cut through the controversial crap and got to the heart of the matter with that statement. That was my brother!


My brother was not just an SRF devotee. He also followed another, in the body "Guru," who is not an SRF person.
So he was referring to the basic teachings of "Yoga" from India, not only SRF. In fact he had to go beyond SRF to really expand his search. Though he never left SRF or Yogananda.

I think my brother got to the heart of the real teachings. I know he got answers to his "heart songs" to the divine. The teachings in general (not only SRF specific) were a GREAT thing in his life. He shared that with me, to an extent that I know he didn't even realize until after he passed.

His exit was a sudden mistake of permanent consequences that I will never understand.

In retrospect, it is probably not something I should have introduced to this conversation. I do know that the teachings of India (not just SRF) enhanced my brothers desire for God and lead him to a lot of happiness. That's one reason his departure was so shocking.

My thoughts on SRF are elsehwere on this board.
Basically, I am for humanizing the whole thing.
I think we all want a shortcut, and that makes us look everywhere else BUT within.
I think organizations need to emphasize themselves over the teachings to grow, so they do so.
I think my brother was right about the teachings,but you have to pluck the teachings away from the earthly "husks" they are stuck in.
I think we make everything far too complicated.


I think its all good in the end,
if you are trying,
and if you feel guilt instead of joy,
then......
God is crying!

OK its a silly poem but I will leave it at that for now. Its true enough, i think.


(PS If anybody recognizes me from this, don't call me. Lets leave the internet life seperate for now....thanks)


hugs


GregsBrother












GregsBrother
Registered User
(1/13/03 11:24 pm)
Reply 		Re: .
.

Edited by: GregsBrother at: 1/13/03 11:30:12 pm
soulcircle
Registered User
(1/14/03 3:34 am)
Reply 		thank you those who maintain posts without full deletions
thank you all,

there are many beautiful posts on this board
thank you all those of you, who leave your posts here permanently

i join those who feel the fewer full deletions on the board the better

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