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forkhand Registered User (3/8/03 5:52 am) Reply	Now I am free (This message was left blank) Edited by: forkhand at: 3/21/03 9:04:16 am
redpurusha Registered User (3/11/03 1:15 pm) Reply	Re: Now I am free I see why MC banned you from calling.
GregsBrother Registered User (3/11/03 6:19 pm) Reply	Forkhand Forkhand You had a lot to say. One thing jumped out.....why did you bother to qualify your statement about PY's face by saying "even though I am not gay"? That just struck me as something a teenage male would say. I guess like to be like Sherlock Holmes and try to deduce things.... Anyway..... I know how it is to become illusioned then disilusioned (though I cant spell it). Your post was a rant and a half, but at least you were specific and , apparently sincere. I think we should talk about religious figures and institutions in the same casual way we talk about anything else. People that think they get points with God for acting all "reverential" are funny to me. So I disagreed with much of what you said but liked your bold tone. thats all i got for now
forkhand Registered User (3/12/03 10:19 am) Reply	Re: Forkhand (This message was left blank) Edited by: forkhand at: 3/21/03 9:05:35 am
MastersChela Registered User (3/12/03 3:41 pm) Reply	If we're so bad, why not just ignore us? Master said in a lecture I listen to often (and he said it all the time, direct disciples say) that "Fools argue, and wise men discuss." One of the things I think he meant by this is that we should never waste emotional energy trying to convince people of something that they're obviously not going to change their mind on. All our foaming and fuming won't change them. I see that you have a lot of agression about Yogananda and SRF (They are not the same thing) and that's fine. However, not being a devotee of Master (by your own admission), what makes you think that all that you have said will have any effect on anyone here? And if it won't have any (which it probably won't), then what's the point of even wasting your time with it? I am not a member of any "You're with us or against us" mentality, and one thing that I deeply treasure about this forum is the variety of voices and outlooks on SRF, @nand@, and Yogananda that abound here. *Quote:* One thing i have noticed with walrus is that people are HYPER-critical of every word people speak in their posts - but only to those that voice their opinion regarding losing faith in SRF. I think that if you agree with this, you haven't spent much time on this forum, or really looked at what's going on. Almost everyone here on Walrus is here because they've lost faith in SRF. That's the whole point of the Walrus. However, I think the hostility that you're feeling may be due to the fact that you're not a devotee at all. The only analogy I can really think of is the "N-word". Some African Americans feel comfortable using this word amongst one another, and have kind of reclaimed it, transformed it from a word of shame to a word of strenght or familiarity. However, Bill Gates wouldn't want to go into Compton hollering "What's up N...a!" I think the feeling is the same regarding Master or SRF. Honestly, though, I haven't seen THAT MUCH criticism of what you've said. Perhaps G'sBrother's remark about your "but I'm not gay" statement (which I have to admit I also thought was very strange) struck a deep chord with you... But you have to expect criticisms here. EVERYONE gets criticized; those who still love SRF, and those who condemn it entirely. They get criticised BECAUSE there's a lot of both of us here. *Quote:* How despite the fact i am not gay, Master's face was perfect I too, am a deep lover of Master (but have only a limited experience with SRF), and often just sit and stare at his picture. I'm even getting "Last Smile" tattooed on my arm so that I'll always have him there looking at me when I'm meditating. I think what G'sBrother was really saying (correct me if I'm wrong GB) was that you don't need to defend a statement like thinking Master is beautiful in a place like this. He IS beautiful, and it has NOTHING to do with sexuality. Saying "Master's face was perfect" would never make someone here assume you were gay. This place is full of married (and unmarried) staunchly heterosexual men who would quickly agree with you. These things being said, I wanted to discuss a number of the issues you brought up in your recent post. *Quote:* Kriya yoga is a farce I understand you're bitter because SRF wouldn't give you the lessons or give you Kriya. But, just as you have stated, there are LOTS of other Kriya teachers in the world, many of whom have quite a bit less rigid standards for giving Kriya to those who earnestly seek it. Why is Kriya a "farce" just because there are many different ways of doing the technique? The truth is (and you'd probably understand this if you had Kriya) is that the technique is not Kriya. There are many ways of doing it because Gurus will tailor the techniqe for the individual student who they're teaching. In the book Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, there's a line that says: "...once there [at the top of the spiritual mountain], they become aware that there's no single or fixed number of routes [to the top]. There are as many routes as there are individual souls." The Guru knows this, and helps us to find the route best suited to our own spiritual and egoic temperments. This is why there are many different versions of the Kriya technique. And honstly, they're not as different from one another as one might think. *Quote:* Yogananda says in the AY that science cannot account for the miracles that yogis and other masters have demonstrated. The problem with this viewpoint is that if science is to eventually discover how yogis perform their miracles, the miracles cease to be miracles and become common knowledge This is 100% true, but it's not a bad thing, and it doesn't mean that the things Yogis do aren't miracles. In the middle ages, when barbers did double duty as doctors and the one and only remedy for anything was bloodletting, a apendectomy or the removal of a brain tumor would have been considered a miracle. Miracles aren't "outside" the natural laws of the universe, they're just performed by individuals who have a deeper understanding of natural law than the people who are spending all their time difining what natural law is. Today, in particle accellerators, matter is converted into energy and into different kinds of matter on a day-to-day basis. The transmution of matter, when it was being attempted by Alchemists, was seen by those who difined reality (the Catholic Church) as evil or as magic. Today, it's just technology. *Quote:* It is easy enough to deduce from this that the subjective and the objective reality are two different things This, also is true. The problem with the statement is that it places a postive value on "objective" and a negative value on "subjective". This is not your fault, but is something inherent in most modern thinking. Just because "most" people believe something happened a certain way, doesn't mean that it happened that way. I believe that there really isn't a thing called "objective reality". Everyone perceives events and situations in slightly different ways. I believe that the ONLY thing we CAN trust is our own perceptions, current modern thinking (not nessesarily scentific thinking--read "The Tao of Physics" to see what I mean) holds that we can NEVER trust what our inner mind tells us and that the truth can only be verified from "outside." The problem is that there is no one truly objective perspective. Every perception that comes into your mind is filtered through your past experiences. Everything that happens to you or is said to you is percieved based on past experiences. So, from that perspective, EVERY reality is a subjective one. I'm going to stop now, because I know that I won't convince you of anything. However, if we "cultists" make you so upset, just go away. Click "back" on your browser and surf the web somewhere else. Honestly, I for one am quite tired of people complaining about somthing that they could just as easily ignore.
forkhand Registered User (3/13/03 4:26 am) Reply	Re: If we're so bad, why not just ignore us? (This message was left blank) Edited by: forkhand at: 3/21/03 9:06:58 am
etzchaim Registered User (3/13/03 8:17 am) Reply	Shake it up, baby.... Yeah, I had a reaction to the gay comment, too... but mostly because I AM queer, and it's really interesting to see people dealing with this issue, it's so 'pop' these days, y'know. Jokes are made so seemingly randomly (like, what's up with the tension in noticing that a beautiful man is beautiful?) Isn't humor a good part of the release of tension? The diversity of humanity that allows for some people to think it's funny, some people to think it's offensive, some to wonder if there's some defensive mechanism going on and G-d knows what else, or if you don't believe in G-d, (which sometimes gets you closer to G-d, IMHO), that indefinable 'whatness' that causes us to eat, sleep, relieve ourselves, breath and gets our blood flowing and sense, somehow that we are alive, or not, as the case may be, is amazing... Geez, I'm long winded. I dreamed once (actually a couple of times) that I was meditating in a cave and Babaji sent a messenger with a message written on gold. It told me that it was OK for me to be gay. Either Babaji thought that was an important thing for me to hear, or my subconscious did. Either way, it doesn't matter, does it? Anyway, I find myself right down the middle, which is a completely meaningless statement, because there really isn't any middle. I'm not a Yogananda devotee, although I recognize the level of attainment he had, not a fantasy of that attainment (IMHO, of course) but the fact that he had achieved a high level of realization, much higher than the level of "Natural Man/Woman". What this means exactly, I don't know. Avatar is a sticky word... I've tried to define it for myself, and I come up with all of us being avatars, eventually, that being the point of our existence (IMHO), but then I think G-d is Life, and we are a part of Life. There's nothing really mysterious about it, other than that 99% of us can't see a wide enough picture of the 'scheme of things' to really get a good sense of reality. Very mysterious, eh? We're so limited and the Universe is so big, and there actually may be several Universes... Can you figure it out? We're all projecting. Climbing up the ladder to get above it all is filled with challenges and set backs, to say the least. Yogananda's job was to bring Kriya to the west. I believe he consciously tailored it to what he saw was the mind-set and the limitations of the 'American' of the early to mid 20th century. Is there something wrong with that? No. The problem seems to be in allowing what should be a living tradition to fall into a stultified, fearful, judgmental tradition. There's a reason why we bury or burn our dead. So, Forkhand, I think you can rest assured that you are not alone in having a different opinion of SRF and Yogananda. Everyone here does. The criticisms always extend to what is "other" but tends to reflect our own natures our own projections. The more you look inside, the more you will see this is true. I used to never use the word 'god', because I realized that when I said 'god', the people who heard it were thinking something completely different from what I thought I was saying. I feel the same way about words and symbols in general. I'm a painter, I work with the subjectivity of symbols on a daily basis. Words like "science", "mysticism", "enlightenment", "god, God, G-d, goddess, Goddess, G-dess, etc." "Kriya" "cult" "religion", "consciousness", etc., etc., etc., are going to be heard through different experiences, different belief systems, different personalities and different levels of consciousness. Who's got the right version? Mabe it's just what's working at the time for each individual person. I gave up long ago on thinking that I knew. Once I got rid of the idea that I knew anything, the whole world opened up... Are you here to help us? (as you say: "If I ignore you, how can i help you?") What do we need your help for? To tell us that SRF is a cult and Kriya is a crock? So many others before you have said that. We all have our own opinions. I'm in the middle, personally. I think you are a growing soul expressing yourself. Heh, heh. Like all of us. I've quit judging my own humanity and I kind of like Yogananda's, and mine, for that matter. So he got fat??? Food is awesome, man, and everyone has a different metabolism. There's even a rumor I've heard that once you breath enough Kriya, your metabolism accually slows down. I'm thin. Does it matter? and... Kriya, like all mystical paths, is not meant for everyone. G-d, or perhaps we ourselves, has/have made us all different. There's no miracle cure for humanness. Yogananda's sales techniques don't make him a charletan, just a product of his time - and he managed to transcend his time more than most people have (just look around you). The only reason to criticize him for his humanness is to defend oneself from the illusion that he was perfect, or to deflect from ones own imperfections. We all do it, we just criticize different forms of the lila, some like some parts and not others. You know what I mean. Does it matter? I've had the Kriya techniques for awhile. I have other techniques as well. I resonate to some and not to others. Sometimes the Kriya techniques expand my consciousness in such an obvious way that I'm truly startled, and sometimes I coast for awhile and spend my time learning and painting or chanting Hebrew prayers and that's what carries me forward. Does it matter?... not really... In my opinion, attitude is more important to technique. I was taught in Art school that when you are not able to create all, nothing it coming out, you stare at a blank canvas, or worse, a bad painting, and there's nothing, no inspiration, just bad art and fatigue, this is exactly when your subconscious is doing the most amount of work. That's probably the time to meditate. When meditation doesn't work, that's when all the meditating has pushed all the subconscious symbols up and my painting is going well. My attitude to not being able to paint at times is pretty good, so I don't give up. I use the 'winter' times to do different things. Devotion doesn't work much for me. I'm a 'learner'. A Jnana Yogi, or a meditative Jew. Take your pick. It's the same thing. If devotion works for you, run with it. ...but check out your attitude. Is it helping you run, or making you get winded? Sometimes attitude is everything. It set's up the undercurrent and life flows with it. If your attitude blocks the flow of life, sometimes that's good, because it can get pretty stupid here on the earth plane (and in the astral), but sometimes the wrong attitude can push away what will really help you, or bless you, or take you where you want to go. If you want something and your subconscious is saying "this is all crap anyway", what do you think the effect on the external world will be? In my opinion, if you have run into an obstacle, its an attitude issue. Karma is karma. Whatever is manifesting externally is incidental. You sure as hell aren't going to change other people. You may discover that there are certain types of responses to different kinds of attitudes. Mabe someday the right technique(s) will be there. Recognizing it, and being able to receive it is vital, you might say. Mabe you already have your techniques but you haven't noticed yet. I think you're on the right track, though. You shouldn't accept a sales pitch just because it sounds good. That's basically the level of the 'vegetable kingdom'. Not a swiftly moving place. The main issue I see is that you could be closing yourself off to what might actually be real, like that you can become more conscious of your own reality. I'd say that to anyone, and I can't tell anyone what to do, even if I tried. Everyone has their own reality, or illusion, or projection, and that's where it all starts. You don't need Kriya, and you certainly don't need to believe that you can only get Kriya from SRF, or even from a "Hindu" source. My Rabbi, one Saturday morning, described a Kabbalistic breathing technique, and you know what? It was almost exactly the same technique as Kriya. Fascinating? No, not really. The same sun and moon shine on everyone. In Judaism, we refer to "Jacobs Ladder". If you think we are being literal, you've missed it. Get to know your own illusions (or 'demons', if you like funky symbols) and really look them in the eye and keep climbing. For some people the greatest 'demon' can be their belief in G-d and the 'tradition' they've karmically gravitated to. It let's them think they are 'right' and others are 'wrong'. For someone else, it's the opposite. They've 'de-G-ded' everything and now they're stuck in the belief that everything is what can be measured and quantified and anything that they don't know about is alot of crap. This also let's people think that they are 'right' and others are 'wrong'. You say: "I equate SRF with Yogananda because he started the whole thing!" Very true, but are you exactly like your parents or do you just resemble them in some ways? Think about that. From what I know through my lineage, Yogananda was very concerned about the future of SRF and he knew some things about it that really frightened him. I don't believe he is guiding SRF. I think he/she is somewhere else entirely, where he/she needs to be . L'chaim! (in other words, To Life!) Etzchaim
etzchaim Registered User (3/13/03 10:03 am) Reply	Re: The Kali Age "Yukteswar says that we are, in fact, not in the kali age anymore. But yet, all of INDIA still IS!!! hahaha. I just wonder if the KALI age is not just a piece of religious bull and that devotion is the ONLY means of reaching God" In the Holy Science, Sri Yukteswarji is using the Precession of the Equinox. This is basic Astronomy (not Astrology) and IS science. The interpretation, of course, is not hard science, but I'm finding that what Sri Yukteswar says is quite accurate, to my mind, of the historical development that we can verify (i.e. going back to the descending Dwapara Yuga) and the 'gist' of the surviving myths that we have. He has merely incorporated the Precession into the ages as defined by early religious texts. I'm not one to claim that myth is 'false'. I believe symbols reflect something very true. I also am not one to believe that the "modern" world has figured it all out and is superior to the "pre-modern" world. This keeps me open to accepting that truth may or may not come in contemporary clothing, something I think is very important to understand. Sometimes the old and the new are saying the same thing in different languages, sometimes one or the other is more useful. I see no reason to discount his system (nor to enforce it onto others 8, for that matter). It's a way of looking at history that I've incorporated because it 'works' for me. I'm a pragmatist. Etz Edited by: etzchaim at: 3/13/03 10:13:34 am
MastersChela Registered User (3/13/03 1:00 pm) Reply	Re: Shake it up, baby.... etzchaim, I just have to say I LOVE this post! I've never seen your writings here on Walrus before, but I welcome them with open arms. My favorite part was this: *Quote:* You don't need Kriya, and you certainly don't need to believe that you can only get Kriya from SRF, or even from a "Hindu" source. My Rabbi, one Saturday morning, described a Kabbalistic breathing technique, and you know what? It was almost exactly the same technique as Kriya. Fascinating? No, not really. The same sun and moon shine on everyone. Thank you, too, for the comments regarding "Jacob's Ladder." I remember the story of Jacob's ladder to heaven from bible study as a kid, but now I'm motivated to go back and look for the mystical interperetation in those verses. Do you know the precise book/chapter of the Old Testiment/Torah this story is found in? I'm really interested in looking it up. I agree with you about the similarities between Yoga and the Kabala. I think when one looks at a chart of the Chakras and a map of the Tree of life, the core oneness of these teachings is self-apparent. Sure, the Tree of life is much more complex than the chakras, but what we have is a series of "spheres" with conecting pathways, just like the Nadis of Yogic study. We also have the teaching that this was the way that YWH came down from heaven and manifested himself on earth (am I getting this right?). In the Kriya tradition, the shushumna is the path that cosmic consciousness took to manifest itself in the world as each of us. Like you said, etzchaim, "the same sun and moon shine on all"
MastersChela Registered User (3/13/03 1:15 pm) Reply	deleted--double post deleted--double post Edited by: MastersChela at: 3/14/03 4:15:37 pm
MastersChela Registered User (3/13/03 1:21 pm) Reply	Re: "Ron" vs. Yogananda forkhand said: *Quote:* One more thing i would like to say is regarding a comparison between Yogananda and L. Ron Hubbard. The similarities are significant I MUST ask you to please defend this statement. I am personally very knowledgeable about Scientology and L. Ron Hubbard. I've read probably every "expose" book that's been written about him (A Piece of Blue Sky was especially noteworthy), and have read and listened to numerous stories of the startling abuses that go on in Scientology (forced abortions, forced "disconnections" from family members who question Scientology, government fraud and a tried and convicted conspiracy to infiltrate the FBI and sabotoge an investigation of Scientology... the list goes on and on). I've also read a great deal of Scientology literature and stuff by "Ron" himself. While claiming to be the reincarnation of the Buddha and telling his followers that he'd spent "years" wandering Tibet and India, he claims in his writings that the "Vedas were written by the Buddha 2500 years ago" (quoted from the intro to "What is Scientology") If anyone is interested in reading more about Scientology or L. Ron Hubbard, check out these websites: www.xenu.net www.xenutv.com Dear Amanda: An open letter from a father to his daughter Ron Hubbard was a drug addict, a power-hungry sharlatan who believed he was the reincarnation of the Buddha, and delusional to the point of preaching that the story of Christ was only a brainwashing "implant" placed in the human consciousness by Aliens. He constantly falsified his own history in order to make himself seem like a "great man" such as claiming to have "wandered Tibet and India in search of truth" as a kid when all he really did was spent a month in Hong Kong and Shanghai with his parents, writing in his journal how "backwards" the people were and how miserable he was. He also taught that each person has thousands of "body thetans" which are souls that are confused and believe they're all one person but are bound together because of more alien brainwashing procedures. The only way to get rid of these "thetans"? Spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on Scientolgy "counselling" sessions (called auditing) which really ammount to being hooked up to a lie detector and asked a series of mind-numbing questions over and over. PLEASE be kind enough to tell me what this man has in common with My Beloved guru. Edited by: MastersChela at: 3/14/03 4:26:42 pm
chela2020 Registered User (3/14/03 2:52 am) Reply	Re: Shake it up, baby.... Edited by: chela2020 at: 7/1/03 4:51 pm
soulcircle Registered User (3/14/03 5:46 am) Reply	chela2020 know any jokes
chela2020 Registered User (3/14/03 7:32 am) Reply	Re: chela2020 (This message was left blank) Edited by: chela2020 at: 7/1/03 4:52 pm
chrisparis Registered User (3/14/03 8:57 am) Reply	Re: chela2020 Why bother. CLearly forkhand is another person who contributes not much at all to the discussion on this board.
redpurusha Registered User (3/14/03 9:48 am) Reply	Re: Forkhand We've come to a fork on the board. forkhand, yes I said nothing and that was my intention. From what I read in some of your first postings you made some derogatory and irrelevant comments (i.e. Hubbard and Yogananda are both fat.) that are were not worth discussing. Now that you have 'improved upon' your statements maybe there is something to say. From my experience with the Walrus board, this is a place where you will find a whole spectrum of people in some way related to, or in the past associated with SRF or Yogananda. Everyone has there own perspective and understanding (this is natural as most would agree that people are at different levels of development, well maybe you wouldn't agree, but you get the idea). And there is the fact that we are all unique creations of God so we therefore have a unique way of looking at things. So full is this spectrum, I even see every once in a while an 'ultra conservative SRF member' drop a post, and at the other extreme end, there are poeple who don't even believe in God, spirit or religion, to them its all a scam, forget about SRF or Yogananda you sound like you're anti any type of religion all together (from your comments). Althought I disagree with most of your views you have a right to post here and are welcome to. But you may not like the responses or lack of responses. But most people here, are somewhere in the middle of these two opposite extremes and do value religion of some type and especially revere Yogananda, or at least have some level or respect for him and his teachings (not necessarily SRF). And due to their devotion and loyalty to Yogananda are concerned about the way they have been handled by SRF (or mishandled). There are as many degrees to this as there are people. Personally I prescribe to Yogananda's teachings, taken from many sources, including SRF. SRF doesn't have any exclusive right to truth or Yogananda, no one does. It is free for everyone to discover and enjoy, if he chooses. MastersChela gave a clear response to you about the nature of the different type of Kriya, "There are many ways of doing it because Gurus will tailor the techniqe for the individual student who they're teaching." Yet, you respond with that he has repeated what you said, nothing new, when in fact he did provide a new reasonable explanation of the many ways kriya is presented. The point you miss, I think, is that there is nothing wrong with varying ways of teaching kriya, it is tailored to the individual student. Yet, your comments on kriya seem to be totally invalid from the start if you have never even practiced it for an extened period (thats 'if' I don't know if you have or not). Your experience with gettig the SRF teachings (or not getting) is not normal. I venture to say most people simply request the teachings and there are no problems, I had no problem and it was very cheap. Yogananda's works to me, as to many others, are priceless so to spend a couple of hundred bucks on them, if that, is really much more than a great bargain. You are under no obligation to buy these, and if you want you could probably sell them on ebay I'm sure some soul would benefit. You say, "SRF is, i repeat, a cult. They make money from their work through the books and armrests and beads and posters that they sell and so on etc. " Oh yes, we all know of the billions of dollars made on the armrests. Its sales beat out the thighmaster. Your invalid argument goes, if they are selling things and making money, they are a cult. They have sold things to me therefore they are a cult. If thats's the case, then every religious organizaition and business are a cult. And tell me of any institution who is not concerned about a lawsuit? Clearly, we have seen many bogus lawsuits in history, "I want one hundred billion dollars for my dog's pain and suffering" (exagerated example). There is no contradiction in the technique and devotion. Technique gets you to the door, love opens it. Apparently, love and devotion are part of the science of discovering God. They are not opposed to one another, they are both part of the holy science. Yukteswar was talking about the smaller cycle (in dwapara) we are currently in, that is within a larger cycle (in kali). Once again, the apparent contradiction is only in your mind. If you have a problem with prayer and faith in changing events and objective reality than you have a problem with Jesus also, as he has inspired billions to pray to God and also, if applied properly, move mountains and make wine out of water. Occording to your views, not only Yogananda, but also all the founders of the worlds religions and anyone who prays, are all delusional. Who really needs to wake up and smell the coffee? Yogananda's autobiography and his other works are the best pieces of litereture IMO I have encountered. You don't have to listen to the bengali music that sucks. My personal choice is Thievery Corporation (lounge music) and many other types. Maybe you can find something that doesn't suck for you.
manivar Registered User (3/14/03 10:26 am) Reply	FOR MASTER CHELA Hi. My name is john and I am a member of a Spiritual Group. We study Theosophy and Holy Science. 'Cause our personal interest I want to make you an important question: Do you know (in California) an Exoteric Group of people with a Medium that channeling with Shri Paramahansa Yogananda? Thank you for your help. Edited by: manivar at: 3/14/03 10:37:39 am
soulcircle Registered User (3/14/03 10:42 am) Reply	where have all the flowers gone? Guests and All, where has all the honesty gone? from chela2020 above: *Quote:* allegations were so flimsy one more flimsy allegation: the cover of the '28 edition of Science of Religion has Swami Dhirananda associate on the cover below Paramhansa Yogananda's name so gurudeva when did you dishonestly "decide" to project yourself as sole author of a book, co-authored? so sweet one that I still revere as much as any one, what other words and actions of yours are misleading lies sweet devotees and friends what are you all going through I wonder because recently after being a devotee of thirty or forty years, i learned that everyone during the time back then was aware that Tara Mata lived in a home near Mother Center as a single mother raising her love child sweet devotees and friends what are we all going through? where have we as children all gone where have we women and men and devotees and as attacked and attacking walri all gone to flowers? when will we ever learn? my humor gleaned the following laugh from the feb 16th san francisco rally and this sign: "blondes against dumb wars" where have we gone circle Edited by: soulcircle at: 3/14/03 10:44:41 am
etzchaim Registered User (3/14/03 11:02 am) Reply	Re: Shake it up, baby.... Masterschela, Jacobs ladder is written about in Genesis 28. It's early, around verse 10. The Bible gives only a hint of what the Kabbalah discusses. The terms 'tree' and 'ladder' are synonymous metaphors, though "tree" has obviously found favor in the tradition. �Jacob�s Ladder� is used specifically when the trees of all four worlds are strung together. The �Crown Center� (Keter) of each lower world is the same center as the �Heart Center� (Tiferet) of the world just above it, so they interlace that way. At the human level, the Heart is connected to the sphere of the world above it that translates as �Kingdom� (Malchut, the lowest sphere). You might be able to relate some Christian teachings to that. There are a couple of authors I can highly recommend who are teaching on a deaper level in a way that doesn't require knowledge of Hebrew and more in-depth knowledge of Jewish law and exegesis. These are Aryeh Kaplan (book titles: Sefer Yetzira, The Bahir, Jewish Meditation, Meditation and the Bible, Meditation and Kabbalah, etc.) and Zev ben Shimon HaLevi (book titles: The Way of Kabbalah, The Tree of Life, Adam and Kabbalistic Tree, A Kabbalistic Universe, etc). Kaplan was an American Physicist/Rabbi who doesn't directly compare Physics and Mysticism, but clearly brings in his knowledge of science into his religious teaching. He is coming out of the Orthodox world and his commentary on the two traditional texts - The Bahir and The Sefer Yetzira, is quite profound, but less practical than I would like. You might find Meditation and the Bible very interesting because he goes into the techniques used by the Prophets. HaLevi is British and is very concerned with bringing the esoteric teachings to a wider audience with more integrity and coherency than has been common in the past. I've found his books very useful in understanding how the Tree (or Ladder) applies to the human/psycho-physical level, which relates to the Yogic use of the Chakras. There's another book that I haven't yet looked at that's been highly recommended called The Heavenly Ladder: Kabbalistic Techniques for Inner Growth, by Edward Hoffman. I haven't yet looked at it, so I can't say how good it is. There are a number of people in the Jewish community who are currently working to make the esoteric tradition available, but much of the teaching has been inaccessible because of the reluctance of the Orthodox to reveal the information they have (I was actually excluded from learning quite a bit because I'm female) and they will not teach anyone who is not also Orthodox, with the exception of watered down theory and the exoteric prayers and laws. Many texts are still being discovered, buried under manuscripts in various European libraries because no one knew what they were. Many are still not translated from the Hebrew, Aramaic, Arabic and Yiddish. The Academic world has done some good publishing. My experiences with the Orthodoxy are very similar to what people have posted here about SRF. There's a small group of people (including myself) who fall under the often loose term of "Jewish Renewal" who are not Orthodox and often have links to either the Yogic traditions or Tibetan Buddhism (the 'BuJews' as they've been called...The Rabbi, originally Orthodox, who began the Renewal movement now holds the Wisdom Chair at the Naropa Institute. As with any esoteric tradition, it�s difficult to find someone teaching legitimate techniques. I�m in Ann Arbor, where the Professor of Jewish Mysticism also happens to be a Renewal Rabbi, so I guess I�ve lucked out. Chela2020, I will post a response to you later, I promise. I've just spent a good deal of time rescuing a very damaged squirrel, missing an eye, and even less mentally astute than most squirrels are, and I actually have to work! I feel good though... Etzchaim Edited by: etzchaim at: 3/14/03 12:25:17 pm
soulcircle Registered User (3/14/03 11:07 am) Reply	Thank you redpurusha *Quote:* We've come to a fork on the board remarkably creative and delighfully delicious line i will take this inspiration into the kitchen the line above is delectable, again thank you
redpurusha Registered User (3/14/03 11:34 am) Reply	Re: Thank you redpurusha thank you.

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