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Who
Unregistered User
(3/16/02 7:30 am)
Reply 		science versus religion
the various religions of the world have holy books which purport to contain the truth . The truths in these books are unchanging . any search for evidence is a search for supporting evidence to bolster already existing claims . This is not a real search for truth . the Hindu vedas were true 5,000 years ago and will be true forever . the truth in the Bible unchanging. This may be a comfort to some who are looking for a strong support , however , it has a serious flaw . It is not open to new evidence and therefore cannot evolve .

science on the other hand makes no claim to having permanent truth and is therefore able to adapt and even welcome new evidence . many great discoveries are made when evidence contradicting current theory is encountered . all physicists believe that the physics of 50 years in the future will be completely different than the physics of today due to new discoveries and new information . adaptability to new information is thus the greatest strength and motivator of change in science . Unless such an attitude is taken in one's spiritual search then an individual is doomed to life of dogma and immature beliefs.

true believer
Unregistered User
(3/20/02 10:12 pm)
Reply 		dogma in the teachings
(Who) brings up some interesting points . For many years I have been subjected to a long list of irrational SRF beliefs including: the existence of four avatars on the SRF alter when many other groups claim to also have avatars. I thought avatars only came around every thousand years or so , and if so , how do you get four all at once?
Other absurd beliefs include the idea that Yogananda was William the conqueror and William Shakespeare , that the SRF lessons are to be world scriptures, that Yogananda's body rests undecayed to this day , that Babaji, LM, and SY were the three wise men (I wonder who Jesus Christ was?), that there is somebody 2,000 years old living in the Himalayan mountains , that Yogananda was the guru of mahatma Gandhi , ... and the list goes on and on.
There is more "true believer dogma" represented in this short list than most people swallow in any Christian church .

GeneAum
Registered User
(6/11/02 9:48 pm)
Reply 		Re: science versus religion
A concept spoken by SY (from the AY in the chapter "The resurrection of Sri Yukteswar") that I've found confusing/disconcerting throughout the years is when he speaks of a soul's astral life after leaving the earthly body:

Quote:
After each loss of his physical body, however, an undeveloped being from the earth remains for the most part in the deep stupor of the death-sleep and is hardly conscious of the beautiful astral sphere. After the astral rest, such a man returns to the material plane for further lessons, gradually accustoming himself, through repeated journeys, to the worlds of subtle astral texture.



Who are the 'undeveloped' - Neanderthals?
The above implies (to me) a substantial percentage of disincarnate (astral) beings are basically asleep.

However, with experiential evidence arising from NDEs, earth/astral communicators (e.g. Patricia Mischell), Life-before-life regressions, etc., it appears fully conscous life is the norm while in the astral state - not a deep slumber.

Of course, SY's information could have been a metaphor but "a deep stupor" sounds rather concrete.

chela2020
Registered User
(6/12/02 8:16 pm)
Reply 		Re: dogma in the teachings
(This message was left blank)

Edited by: chela2020 at: 7/1/03 4:47 pm
Daya Yama
Registered User
(6/21/02 9:55 am)
Reply 		Re: dogma in the teachings
Hi,

I would like to add to this.

In one discourse PY told that when Jesus was born, he himself was there too, and three of his nearest gurus in the line were the wise men. Tradition has it that they were three wise men, but the Bible doesn't give any number. And besides, they were not so very wise, since they did not understand what Herod was about till it was too late for a lot of murdered babies and children. Herod had them killed, after the wise men helped him to track the birthplace of Jesus, it is written.

Who were in the stable besides the not too wise men? An ox, a donkey, Mary and Joseph; there are these to choose among too.

In works of Lahiri Mahasaya, published by Sanskrit Classics in San Diego, LM goes into HIS past lives, and never mentions he was one of the so-called wise men at all. Maybe it was not that important -

Last, but not least, the so-called wise men who were led by a wandering star, were not led by a star at all, for stars don't move about as described in the Bible. They don't move such as the gospel describes. They shine uniformly over the side of the earth that turns toward it, and not specifically over one or many spots on earth either, not to our knowledge.

A UFO; however, is said to emit strong, white light and move about, but that is quite another tale.

A voice in the supermarket
Registered User
(7/21/02 6:14 am)
Reply 		On dogma: Yogananda was once shot and killed by the Japanese

I wanted to write "Yogananda was shot and killed by Japanese planes who fired at him. Also: Can Jesus be an SRF guru?" for the headline, but the format cramped it. I did not have my way.


JESUS A GURU? THAT’S NOT CHRISTIAN –

That question first: I once thought so, but I am not so astoundingly naïve any longer after reading the gospels thoroughly several times.

I have also come to wonder why so few SRF members seem interested in finding out what the Bible’s Jesus stated against having more than one master (himself), against false guides, false Christs, that he compared to wolves. In short, I wonder how it is possible to be so “limitlessly” naïve as I once was.

Judged from the Bible evidence, it seems that Yogananda sucked and bulged grandly from quite imagined alignment with the Jesus that the four gospels write about.

There is much evidence in the Bible that goes much against proclamations by Yogananda.


HE WAS SHOT AND KILLED

I dreamt Yogananda was shot and killed by Japanese planes in a western slope where hazelnut-trees and primroses were growing. I escaped those bullets – lucky me - and slightly patted the dying avatar on his curly head as he lay slowly dying after the airplane raid.

Does this dream (another form of visual message) prove once and for all that Jesus is an SRF avatar and SRF guru or not? What is good proof, in other words? What OTHER PROOF do you have that is as good as a dream?

srflongago
Registered User
(7/21/02 1:07 pm)
Reply 		Re: science versus religion
During the early days of Yogoda, that is 1922-1935, before Yogananda replaced SRF as it was then constituted by SRF as a Church and before all other Indian Yogis left Yogananda, the whole content of ALL publications of the group, SwamiYogananda, Sri Nerode, Bramachari Jotin, Bramachari Ranendra Das, Swami Dhirananda, their many books, all the articles by them and others in the Yogoda magazine East West, all the lessons, all of Praecepta:

All held that the full range of the many Yogas from Hatha and Kriya to Raja were WHOLLY COMPATIBLE WITH ALL RELIGIONS.

That is why Yogananda's temple at Encinitas that fell into the sea in 1942 was called the "Temple of all Religions."

Yoga was NOT identified by that group with Vedic religion, vedic ritual, it was regarded as STEMMING from it.

These are wonderful writings, no longer easily available. They have great value to all truth seekers. In this view, there is also no conflict between Science and Yoga, as was made clear by Yogananda, Dhirananda, Nerode, in the pre 1935 writings.

Edited by: srflongago at: 7/22/02 1:01:16 pm
wholetruth
Registered User
(7/21/02 5:37 pm)
Reply 		Re: science versus religion
Srflongago:

Any opinion as to why Yogananda decided to turn SRF into a church? Was it because all the others had left and it was no longer the original "fellowship," so he felt compelled to turn it into something "grander" to insure its survival? Was it an "ego
trip" or some sort of delusion on his part?

srflongago
Registered User
(7/22/02 8:15 am)
Reply 		Re: science versus religion
The only personal opinion I have is that the view before 1935 of compatibility with all religions is very sound.

I will relate to you the Indian and the American dissident theories at the time.

1) The Indian theory.
At about the same time, Yogananda sent orders to Satyananda at Ranchi in India to tell all the teachers there to either join Yogoda or leave. There were many teachers from the Ramakrishna and other orders who had come to an organization preaching unity who were sorely disappointed and left. Yogananda even forced out his always loyal and very holy childhood friend Satyananda. Satyananda, though hurt, never forsook Yogananda. Read Satyananda's autobiography, or Sareswarananda's books to see what happened.
Most Yoga figures in India would not deal with Yogananda after that. They viewed it as a "power play" not appropriate to a Swami, because the scriptures say that such a one should never seek earthly power.


2) The American theory.
Yogananda had been successfully sued in 1935 by Dhirananda (when he had acquired funds to pursue a suit) for assets for Yogoda work for which he was responsible and Yogananda had been given credit. In 1929 after Dhirananda split with Yogananda (over issues which Dhirananda's son revealed to the LANEWTIMES and which were common knowledge at the time) and it became clear that Dhirananda would sue, Yogananda, before placing Sri Nerode in Dhirananda's place, had Nerode sign a paper saying that he would never claim any of Yogananda's assets. This is all in court records, as mentioned by Ron Russell.
The opinion of many who left SRF in 1935 when the Church was formed was that by transferring his assets to SRF, while remaining in control of its Board, he had protected his assets from any future suits and avoided taxes on income, which is a nice accidental byproduct. Those who left had to do so to maintain their religious beliefs. The change to an exclusive Church made them feel unwelcome. It is also true that in 1935 Lynn's money for founding Encinitas and running Mt. Washington had not yet been acquired by Yogananda as a stream of income which would support the whole enterprise. In mid-depression any tax saving due to being a religious institution, including reductions in transportation fares for ministers for instance, was a welcome contribution to balancing the books.

There was no spriritual preparation published before this change, but it received lots of justification after the fact. I hope someone else will provide before the fact published justification other than what I have provided. Mine has no religious content.


Edited by: srflongago at: 7/22/02 1:13:55 pm
wholetruth
Registered User
(7/22/02 1:22 pm)
Reply 		Re: science versus religion
Thanks, srflongago, we can always count on you to shine the spotlight of truth on every subject and provide illumination.

srflongago
Registered User
(7/23/02 7:12 am)
Reply 		Re: science versus religion
To: Wholetruth

One should understand what an earthquake was caused by the change of SRF from a fellowship to a Church in 1935. In 1933 the announcement in the Yogoda magazine East West said:

1933, NOTICE OF ORDAINED MINISTERS IN EAST-WEST MAGAZINE

"Hereby it is announced that the following are ordained ministers of The Self Realization Fellowship (Yogoda Sat Sanga Society) of America."

Honorary Vice Presidents 1933

Yogi Hamid Bey

Bramachari Nerode

Bramachari Jotin

Ministers 1933

Sradha Devi

Ranendra Kumar Das

Upadeshak Punditji

Sister Gyanamata

Sister Bhakti

Salome E. Marckwardt

Mary Broomell

F. Darling

Yogi F. Sevaka

I have said elsewhere that after 1926, Nerode (running the Detroit Center) and Yogananda gave many joint lectures, that Hamid Bey and Yogananda gave many joint lectures, that the three were very close friends.A 1926 East West announcement said that Nerode joined as a Bramachari, and would decide later whether to take celibate Swami vows. He did not. He was married by Yogananda in 1931 at Mt Washington. Hamid Bey was a mystic coptic priest and an accomplished Yogi and was married with 2 children. His grandchilren live in the LA area. Jotin was a bachelor with education at Ranchi and eventually a Swami.

After the incorporation of SRF as a Church, Hamid Bey broke off and formed his Coptic Fellowship of America, which still exists and has a number of branches. A mimeo of his main writings can be bought through their website. He died in California about 23 years ago. Jotin remained on reasonably good terms with Yogananda and became a Swami, but formed his own Church of Absolute Monism, adhering to very pure vedic principles, which still exists in Washington DC, its second leader Kamala, having retired. (This is not the Kamala associated with Yogananda, Mary Isobel Buchanan, who eventually went her own way as a teacher too.) Nerode broke off in 1940 and formed a religious foundation, the Science of Divine Power, which no longer exists, and taught Yoga for another forty years mostly in Chicago. Sister Gynamata (Edith Bisset) and Florina Darling (Ma Durga) stayed with Yogananda till he died. Ranendra Kumar Das ran the Indianapolis SRF center for some years, and then left. I do not have a verified account of his later career. He passed in San Diego a very few years ago, according to the Social Security death register.

All the rest left, some sooner, some later, some for a variety of other reasons. A discerning reader, looking at the early vs later advertising, and the early vs later lessons, might well conclude that Yogananda's goals for the organization had changed a lot before and after 1935. That is a matter for individual judgement as to what is significant.

You will find many excellent articles and devotions by many of these figures in the old East West and Inner Culture. Some of the issues are on the site listed below, though more used to be.

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/5185/SRFmagazines.htm


Edited by: srflongago at: 7/23/02 12:14:41 pm
wholetruth
Registered User
(7/23/02 6:30 pm)
Reply 		Re: science versus religion
Excellent information, srflongago!

Thanks.

Lobo
Registered User
(7/23/02 11:02 pm)
Reply 		Re: science versus religion
Dear SRFLongAgo,

Thanks for posting that information regarding the early years and the many disciples from that time now no longer even acknowledged by the SRF leaders.

The site that's archived the old magazines has many gaps that are dead links, mainly to the 40's, 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's, 90's. Do you have any information as to why this gap exists? Perhaps copyright issues? It would be great to have access to those years. Many years ago at a local temple in the minister's quarters all the old magazines were all there in hard-back covering. It was wonderful to read through some of them. Why do the monastics have access to them but not the householders, any information on that?

On that same line of thought, it is my understanding the SRF possesses quite a few recordings of PY, even kriya initiations, as well as many other of his talks and writings such as his commentary on the Yoga Sutras. Do you forsee any of this priceless stuff being released any time soon? Or are they being kept for some future purpose? Again, the monastics have access, we none.

Thanks

srflongago
Registered User
(7/24/02 4:18 am)
Reply 		Re: science versus religion


I have my own copies of many of these old magazines and other original lessons. The ones I have referred to on this site, and which have the most interesting articles, are all out of copyright. Copyrights expired long ago, just as they did on "Autobiography of a Yogi".

In many cases the US copyright seems NEVER to have been maintained anyway, since the printings omit the US copyright sign then required to defend copyrights in court.

SRF has sued Ananda for a dozen years claiming an extended copyright through California copyright law, even though it will expire soon. Fortunately time flows inexorably and wipes away many barriers.

Point of Information:
My understanding is that a small portion of California copyright law was never superseded when modern US copyright law came into effect due to a special clause in the federal enabling legislation. This was put in to the law due to pressure from the movie and record industries situated in Southern California. This seems unknown to most lawyers. Otherwise US copyright law universally supersedes previous state laws.

I understand that SRF's position claiming ownership has been turned down by the courts thus far at every level. As of last year SRF was STILL looking for evidence that his intention was to give them enforcable California copyright rights over his publications and images. But note that they have been able to do nothing about "Autobiography" as posted on the web and published elsewhere. The sources I used are much earlier.

So there seems to be no reason not to post the early magazines. A devotee did a wonderful job of putting them in web form. It is a shame they are not all there now. It may well be that they simply cannot afford the web storage space, since there is no reason of content why the ones up are up and the rest down. Of course, there could have been pressure on the posters, but then why leave up what is there?



Nothing I have seen in publications of SRF since 1955 or on various websites since then indicates that SRF monastics or leaders make use of these intentional published records, records approved personally by Yogananda as editor of each issue. The issues state explicitly that anything there without a stated author should be attributed to Yogananda.

Devotees do not contradict me when I quote these records because they would be contradicting Yogananda's authority. But many printed statements by their authorities and many suppositions by devotees about the past of SRF and Yogananda are contradicted by these magazines.

Remember the famous aphorism that we are doomed to repeat the same mistakes if we do not learn from the past. I hope there are truth-seekers inside and outside SRFwho will put these magazines on the web in full.

A voice in the supermarket
Registered User
(7/24/02 8:15 am)
Reply 		Re: science versus religion
Srflongago,

I'm glad you have gone into this subject and got so much out of it.

I did a few requests to Ananda perhaps half a year ago or so, asking about copyrights and such stuff. I was informed through email that they had to check out the material they publish, and also using a lawyer, to be on the safe side.

I was reminded of this when I read your presentation here.

Keep it up.

God bless

srflongago
Registered User
(7/24/02 1:02 pm)
Reply 		Re: science versus religion
to: Voice in the Supermarket

Thank you for your encouragement. Our heritage is what has transpired, it cannot be what has not transpired. Truth about the past will never harm any of us, inside or out, leader or follower, believer or non-believer. Fictions about the past create a shadow play of illusion. They hide the true landscape in which we find the path we need to pursue. It can be found only with true knowledge and compassion. Propagating such such fictions add to the Karma of those who sow them for the sake of personal or institutional advantage.

We must not let anyone lead us away from mindfulness to a surreal landscape of confusion and despair.

Edited by: srflongago at: 7/24/02 2:44:56 pm
legspinnr
Registered User
(10/4/02 3:20 am)
Reply 		Re: science versus religion
to the rationalists dismissing things they have not seen or heard as absurd just because they don't seem likely or even possible in their own conception:

maybe a little bit of humility, a little bit of wonder, a little bit of faith? Or do you similarly distrust your friends when they do something for which you can see no immediate rational explanation, or claim to have done something which you think unlikely?

Wise up - you'll have to eventually.

In God,

Fernsy

gardendiva
Registered User
(10/4/02 7:49 am)
Reply 		Re: science versus religion
Quote:
maybe a little bit of humility


Do you feel you're being humble, Fernsy?

Edited by: gardendiva at: 10/4/02 12:07:43 pm
srflongago
Registered User
(10/4/02 12:20 pm)
Reply 		Re: science versus religion :Fernsy
I cannot understand what you were trying to express. Could you try again?

chuckle chela
Registered User
(10/4/02 6:30 pm)
Reply 		Re: science versus religion
Fernsy, you smell unduly of the lamp, if you must know. You aren't making much of an impression with your academic credentials, your snippets of Chaucer, and your debating tactics. While you may fancy yourself as a skilled debater--and I don't think you are--you don't appear to be skilled in the art of dialogue. At best, you are appearing sophomoric.

I don't say these things to be unkind or in an attempt to weaken your postion. Rather,I am attempting, as others have attempted, to suggest that your arguments and tactics are not advancing your cause. I am trying to suggest, as others have suggested, that a little understanding and compassion, a little respect, and, yes, a little humility would help your cause.

I respect your desire to defend SRF and the teachings. AS Gitano once said, there is much in SRF worth defending. This is one of the things that makes all of this so painful, so thorny, and so confusing for so many. By your own admission, you are quite new to SRF. Surely you can appreciate that there is much you may not yet understand, can you not?

Finally, you should know that as recently as a couple of weeks ago, Brother Vishwananda, who is heading up the administration of SRF, held meetings with monastics, employees, and laymembers in which he admitted that there were and have been serious and fundamental problems in the organization. He said he had spent many months talking with as many people as he could. He admitted that fundamental changes need to be made.

Finally, finally someone at the head of SRF has "come clean" and admitted the gravity of the situation! What is so sad is that this admission is long, long overdue. What is even sadder is that it may be too late, which Vishwananda acknowledged (think about that!). That the Walrus Board has played a significant part in gaining this belated admission is quite likely. Fernsy, what you need to realize is that many, many former monastics, employees, and lay members paid for this admission with their monastic vocations, their careers, their memberships, and, finally, their hearts.

Vishwananda said that fundamental changes were going to be needed in all aspects of the work. He admitted that the "roadmaps" (presumably those drawn up in the 1950s) just weren't working, that they had lost their way, and, indeed, had lost the road entirely.

You may not realize the significance of such admissions, Fernsy. But if SRF is to survive in some significant and spiritually useful form (and by now many don't even care if it does), it will need more than pedantic posturings and witty repartee.

Make it so, Fernsy, make it so.

Gitano no divino
Registered User
(10/4/02 6:43 pm)
Reply 		Re: science versus religion
Fernsy, old boy, you must be something of a masochist. It's pretty obvious you've stepped into a ring where your provocative pronouncements attract a veritable fusillade of verbal fisticuffs. The pugilistic punition must be painful. On the other hand, and in a spirit of reconciliation, may I say that you have spiced up this board and, perhaps inadvertently, injected new vitality into it. Things were getting a bit SLOW around here over the summer, and I began to fear that the Walrus might be on its last legs (flippers?). Allow me to thank you for that but request that in future you not sign your posts "In God." I mean, really, we should observe all due proscriptions against taking the deity's name in vain, don't you think?

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